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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 13:43, 13 May 2015 [1].

Jacobus Anthonie Meessen

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Nominator(s):  — Crisco 1492 (talk) 07:51, 21 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about something different for me. Instead of being about the cinema of the Indies, it's about a little known photographer from the 19th century Dutch East Indies, active in both Padang and Batavia. I think you will find it an interesting read. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 07:51, 21 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Comments. As always, feel free to revert my copyediting. - Dank (push to talk)

  • At the FAC level, {{ill}} templates should be replaced by a link to a stub.
    • That wasn't an issue with Departures nor many of Curly Turkey's articles, nor have I ever read a policy/MOS page regarding that. That being said, there's only one, and it's an inhabited place, so a stub is on its way. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 13:43, 21 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
      • Hm, I'm disappointed I didn't catch it in Departures when I reviewed it. I'll go talk with Curly, if he's using it ... I've rarely seen it at FAC. The two issues are Humpty-Dumptyism (no one uses (nl) to mean "you'll find a Dutch version of this article over here" in print, that I'm aware), and the general idea at FAC that articles should be approaching their finished state ... that is, if we've got something in article space intended to serve as a red flag that there's work to be done, then the work should be done. - Dank (push to talk) 14:09, 21 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
      • Moot in this case, as we now have a stub. I must say though that I disagree with the statement "if we've got something in article space intended to serve as a red flag that there's work to be done, then the work should be done"; the same could be said of red links, and a lack of red links is not a FA criteria on the English Wikipedia (now, the Indonesian Wikipedia...).  — Crisco 1492 (talk) 14:17, 21 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He worked mostly in the capital of Batavia (now Jakarta), Java, and Padang, Sumatra, with additional work in Bangka, Belitung, Borneo, and Nias.": I changed "lived" to "worked", on the theory that for the lead paragraph, readers will be more interested in where he made photographs than where he lived ... but if he didn't do photography in all these places, then this will be wrong. Also: pardon my ignorance, but I've never heard that Dutch East Indies was meant to include Sumutra ... was it? I'm confused why you say in the lead that all his images came from the Dutch East Indies, and then say later in the paragraph that one of the main places he lived was Sumatra.
  • I made a few edits that are in line with the meme of "classic style" ... there isn't a quick and simple description of that style or why anyone would prefer it, but I'll be happy to discuss if you like.
  • Support on prose per standard disclaimer. These are my edits. FAC is quite fortunate to have your Indonesian articles; I wish we had more articles at FAC relevant to Asia and Africa. - Dank (push to talk) 13:03, 21 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Images are appropriately licensed and captioned. Nikkimaria (talk) 06:10, 24 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support Well done. Just a few quibbles:
Lede
  • "Born to a carpenter in Utrecht, Meessen worked in that profession " Isn't it a trade more than a profession? Picky and classist, probably.
Bio
  • "In 1858 he first went " Hermanus was the last male mentioned.
  • "where he registered himself as a special inspector for water management" registered? Wasn't he employed? This sounds like a government sort of thing.
That's it.--Wehwalt (talk) 00:31, 25 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Curly Turkey

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Comments from Wolbo

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  • This is my first FAC review, sorry you had to be the victim.
  • Date of death: based on sources (see also Leeuwarder courant, 11–01–1886) should this not be 14 November 1885 instead of 14 October 1885?
  • Is there a particular reason for mentioning the province of Utrecht in the infobox instead of just the city?
    • I generally go City, Province, Country in my infoboxes (such as Sudirman). Maybe not 100% necessary for Utrecht, but better to be consistent. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 05:03, 29 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
      • Your reply puzzles me. You mention that you generally go with City, Province, Country in infoboxes but the article you provide as an example, Sudirman (another excellent article!), shows City, Country (Poerbolinggo, Dutch East Indies) instead of City, Province, Country (Poerbolinggo, Central Java, Dutch East Indies). I don't know what the guidelines on this are, if any exist, but thought we generally go with the custom of the country, i.e. City, State, Country for the US. In the Netherlands it is not customary to include the province in a location (or address), see for instance Mark Rutte or Willem-Alexander of the Netherlands (also born in Utrecht).--Wolbo (talk) 16:39, 29 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "On 11 December 1862 he wed Johanna Alida (Jansje) Steenbeek": is it worth mentioning that they married in Utrecht?
  • "where he served as a special inspector for water management" As Wehwalt mentioned this is indeed 'a government sort of thing.' 'Waterstaat' is a government institution and the forerunner of the current Rijkswaterstaat. Adding this wikilink, either in the sentence or as a note, would be useful.
  • The couple had several children according to the Delpher newspaper archive (see e.g. 1 and 2). Should this be mentioned?
  • In the article the term "Indies" is used frequently which confuses me. My understanding from reading the article is that Meessen lived in and traveled within the Dutch East Indies. To my mind "Indies" is a much broader area than the Dutch East Indies. The etymology section of the Dutch East Indies article mentions several English terms for this area (Indië, the Dutch East Indies, the Netherlands Indies, and colonial Indonesia) but "Indies" is not one of them.
  • " Minang Highlands": is this the same as Minangkabau Highlands?
  • "At 5 a.m. the following morning I awoke to find some 60 warriors waiting for me on the beach.": the original Dutch text makes no mention of any awakening. A better translation would be "At 5 a.m. sharp (or "At exactly 5 a.m.") the following morning I found some 60 warriors waiting for me on the beach.". Also note that "Upon arrival I took a few shots" refers to gunshots, not camera shots.
  • "At the 1875 Exposition Géographique in Paris, he exhibited 250 of his images – consisting of 175 landscapes and 75 portraits": would a citation of the exposition catalogue (see 1) be useful?
  • Note f ""Een noodzakelijk kwaad voor den militair, bewaren zij in en buiten de kaserne de beste tucht, terwijl op expeditiën of reizen over zee." is an incomplete sentence. It should be ""Een noodzakelijk kwaad voor den militair, bewaren zij in en buiten de kaserne de beste tucht, terwijl op expeditiën of reizen over zee deze vrouwen onschatbare diensten bewijzen.".
    • Added an ellipses, unless you think "these women provide invaluable services" (yes, "bewijzen" I know is closer to "prove", but "prove an invaluable service" doesn't strike me as idiomatic English when the subject is a person) is really needed given the context of the sentence. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 05:03, 29 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
      • The English translation in itself is fine but the Dutch note is not complete. If you mention in the English translation the fragment "and prove invaluable" than the Dutch note should include the fragment "onschatbare diensten bewijzen", otherwise there is a mismatch.--Wolbo (talk) 13:22, 29 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • --Wolbo (talk) 02:50, 29 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • An additional point. In the main source for the article (Boom & Wachlin 2004.) it is mentioned in the introductory section that "Pas sinds kort is het oeuvre van Jacobus Anthonie Meessen bij onderzoekers en verzamelaars bekend. Het werk van deze fotograaf is tijdens zijn leven nauwelijks tot zijn recht gekomen en heeft daarna nog decennia onopgemerkt in depots gelegen." which roughly translates to "Only recently <relating to the article date of 2004> has the work of Jacobus Anthonie Meessen become known with researchers and collectors. The work of this photographer was not really done justice during his life and has remained undiscovered in depots for decades." This is corroborated in the list of exhibitions in the same source which jumps from 1883 to 1998. This seems worth mentioning in the article, probably in the 'legacy' section.--Wolbo (talk) 22:32, 1 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is it known why Meessen went to the Dutch East Indies in 1864? This book (1) mentions he worked there for Waterstaat, which seems plausible. Would be nice to get a confirmation from a reliable source. The book itself is also interesting, apparently a facsimile of a work by Meessen. Could this be the same book as published in 1875, but with a different title, or is it a separate book? Could not find any more info on it.--Wolbo (talk) 00:20, 2 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • It says that it's from 150 year old manuscript, filled with his findings, but doesn't mention any photographs being included... that suggests to me it's a different book altogether. This is very interesting, though since I can't get immediate access to it (September is probably the earliest I'd be able to get a copy), I'm not sure the article meets the FA criteria of comprehensiveness now. A source by the subject is enough for non-controversial things like where he worked, and this would hopefully have more biographical information. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 00:54, 2 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Previous reviewers (Wehwalt, Dank, Curly Turkey) what do you think of withdrawing this until we can get the book? I missed that a new book was published in January (admittedly by the subject, but still). — Crisco 1492 (talk) 01:05, 2 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Either way; I'd be happy to review again in September, if you'd rather pull it now. I don't usually weigh in on comprehensiveness. - Dank (push to talk) 01:13, 2 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe they have an old copy lying around in Batavia..... --Wolbo (talk) 02:00, 2 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Crisco, is this a formal request to withdraw? I mean the nom is barely two weeks old so that's not an issue in itself, it's more that further reviews might be academic if this additional source introduces much new material to the article... Anyway, let me know. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 10:46, 2 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • No, it's not formal yet. I personally think that this is still fine (When I did Departures, the commentary track didn't add much, and we don't have any guarantees either way yet here), but others may disagree. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 11:55, 2 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments from SchroCat

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Excellent article and very enjoyable to read. A couple of minor points to mull over:

There are a few dates that are followed by a comma (per US practice), and a few that are not (per UK practice). Probably best to select one and stick with it.

Photography

  • What type of English is this in? If it's BrEng, then "From May through August" should be "From May to August". Not a problem in some of the other variants.

Style and legacy

References

  • "Jacobus Anthonie Meesen [sic]": Does the title contain [sic]? If not it should be outside the quote marks. It may also be worth using {{sic}} too.
    • I'm using the template. The example used in its documentation ("Concencus [sic] can Change!") suggests that sic in the square brackets is still within the quotes in a title. Admittedly it's a bit different in this case, what with the error being in the last word of the title, but I prefer to follow precedent. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 13:23, 8 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Cheers – SchroCat (talk) 12:10, 8 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Source review

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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