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Gusuku period

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Gusuku period (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

As of 27 December 2024, 02:31 (UTC), this page is active and open for discussion. An FAC coordinator will be responsible for closing the nomination.
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Nominator(s): Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 19:53, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The Gusuku period corresponds to the early protohistorical period of Ryuykyuan history. It features the sudden migration of Japonic-speaking peoples into the archipelago, displacing the previous inhabitants of the Shellmidden period, saw the construction of a bunch of castles everywhere, the growth of an agricultural society, pirates, endemic warfare, and eventually the formation of the Ryukyu Kingdom. Previously, articles on this period on-wiki have conflated archaeological and historical sources with the traditional mythical narrative. I hope you all enjoy reading about this obscure period of history as much as I enjoyed writing it! Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 19:53, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

750h

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Will review. Ping me if I don't get to this within seven days. 750h+ 08:30, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Feel free to refuse my suggestions with proper justification.

lead
  • Directly following the Shellmidden "directly" is redundant.
    • Done. - G
  • fortresses which this won't affect my vote since the other is still widely used, but it's generally preferable to add a coma before "which".
    • Done. - G
  • which proliferated across the archipelago would change "proliferated" to "increased rapidly" or something similar. Best to use words more understandable to a broad audience rather than large ones
    • Done. - G


background
  • capacity prior to the introduction ==> "capacity before the introduction" (conciseness)
    • Done. - G
  • the Ryuykus prior to c. 800 CE ==> "the Ryuykus before c. 800 CE"
    • Done. - G
  • agriculture in lieu of foraging ==> "agriculture instead foraging" (conciseness)
    • Done. - G
  • endemic warfare prior to the ==> "endemic warfare before the" (conciseness)
    • Done. - G
  • Due to their close proximity "close" is redundant. "proximity" does the work
    • Done. - G
emergence
  • peoples settled the Ryukyus should this be "peoples settled in the Ryukyus"
  • "Settling the Ryukyus" is grammatical; see constructions like to settle the Americas or to settle the British Isles in academic lit. -G
  • followed by the Okinawa Islands, the Miyako Islands, and finally the Yaeyama Islands. "finally" is redundant
    • I think finally is important here to note that these were done in order, rather than all three at once. - G
  • population of the Ryukyu Islands prior to the Gusuku "prior to" ==> "before"
    • Fixed. - G
  • divergence prior to the Gusuku "prior to" ==> "before"
    • Fixed. - G
  • or as evolution from a trade creole shouldn't it be "or as an evolution from a trade creole"
    • Fixed. - G
developments
  • Archaeologial examinations of sites at "Archaeological" is spelt wrong
    • Fixed. - G
  • period sociey is a topic "society" is spelt wrong
  • attributing the growth of a nobility and state i don't think article "a" is needed
    • Makes it so it can't be read as (nobility and state polities) instead of (a nobility) (and state polities). - G
  • You use "organization" (american english) in one part of the article but you use "metres" or "centimetres" (british english) in another part. you're going to need use you one type of english.
    • Fixed. - G
  • generally to the southwest so as to maximize sunlight remove "so as"
    • Fixed. - G
  • and surrounded with palisades. ==> "and surrounded by palisades."
    • Fixed. - G
  • with major bases on Kyushu and ==> "with major bases in Kyushu and"
    • Kyushu is an island, shouldn't it be on here? - G
  • port of call in the Ryukyus, and became a major center of piracy remove the comma


emergence of the Ryukyu Kingdom

No problems here.

histography
  • mainly based off interviews ==> "mainly based on interviews"
    • Fixed. - G
  • two early 18th century versions of needs a hyphen between "18th"
    • Fixed. - G
  • dating to periods prior to the 16th and ==> "dating to periods before the 16th and"
    • Fixed. - G
  • began the 17,000 year rule hyphen needed between "17,000" and "rule"
    • Fixed. - G
  • Okinawa in name only, and that remove comma
    • Fixed. - G
  • written documentation prior to the 17th century ==> "written documentation before the 17th century"
    • Fixed. - G

Great work @Generalissima:, thanks for the article. 750h+ 07:04, 22 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Arconning - source review

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Marking my name down here. Ping as well within seven days^. Arconning (talk) 13:55, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Arconning: Pinging! Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 16:49, 29 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Reliable enough for the information being cited
  • Consistent date formatting
  • Consistent and proper reference formatting
  • Appropriate wikilinks where applicable
  • Spot checks sources match what they are being cited for
  • No further comments, everything looks nice

Support from Crisco

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  • Any reason for not including the image in the infobox, instead of below it?
  • Following the Shellmidden period, the Gusuku is generally described as beginning in the 11th century, following a dramatic social and economic shift over the previous centuries. - Following ... following
    • Fixed. - G
  • leading to endemic warfare and the construction of the namesake gusuku fortresses ... eventually leading to the construction of the namesake gusuku. - There is some very similar construction here in the lede, so some rework would probably not be amiss.
    • Fixed. - G
  • mid-Shellmidden ... Late Shellmidden - Not consistent in capitalization. Other examples: Middle Yayoi period
    • Fixed. - G
  • contemporary sources - Contemporary to whom? Perhaps clearer if there were a "since 19XX, sources have" phrasing.
    • Fixed. - G
  • Rice and millet agriculture spread to Sakishima by the 12th century. - This is the first mention of rice and millet, but you don't link them until the next paragraph (WP:LINKFIRST)
    • Fixed. - G
  • Do we have a lang template for the loanwords in this article? (I ask for compatibility with screenreaders)
    • Added these. - G
  • slave trading - Is there a better link, focusing more on East Asia?
    • I was unable to find one.
  • Sho En - You spell the others "Shō"; why is Sho En losing the diacritic?
    • Fixed. - G
  • primary sources limited to foreign diplomatic and tribute records - tribute records were mentioned earlier; would be better to link there
    • Fixed. - G
  • Japan to development in the Ryukyus was challenged in the 1980s and 1990s as Okinawa's domestic development was emphasized, with historians such as Takara Kurayoshi and Murai Shōsuke emphasizing - Two uses of development and two uses of emphasiz(e/ing), with another emphasized in the next sentence. Might be good to rework.
    • Fixed. - G
  • the Gusuku Site is a specific archaeology site on Kikaijima. - You use a lower-case "s" in other uses
    • Fixed. - G
  • Overall, feels like the article is slightly overillustrated. I do like the images... maybe a use of {{multiple image}} would work to combine some?  — Chris Woodrich (talk) 23:48, 22 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Image review - pass

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Hi Generalissima, happy to do the image review. The article contains the following images:

Most are own works, with one from flickr and two with an expired copyright. They are all either in the public domain or published under some version of CC BY-SA. All images are relevant to the article and placed in appropriate locations.

All images have captions. The caption "Shells of Turbo snails were prominent trade goods during the period" is a full sentence and needs a period. I suggest adding alt texts to "Katsurenjô (16).jpg" and "Book from the Ryukyu Kingdom (ca. 1600).jpg". All the other images have alt texts.

I agree with Crisco that, to make it visually better organized, the lead image should be included the info box, unless there is a good reason otherwise. The article has many images, but I'm not sure that this is a problem. Phlsph7 (talk) 14:08, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Phlsph7: Implemented all the requested changes; thank you! Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 22:18, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the changes; that takes care of the concerns. Phlsph7 (talk) 17:00, 26 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support by Lee Vilenski

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I'll begin a review of this article very soon! My reviews tend to focus on prose and MOS issues, especially on the lede, but I will also comment on anything that could be improved. I'll post up some comments below over the next couple days, which you should either respond to, or ask me questions on issues you are unsure of. I'll be claiming points towards the wikicup once this review is over.

Lede
Prose
Additional comments

Additionally, if you liked this review, or are looking for items to review, I have some at my nominations list. Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 07:46, 11 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose from Gog the Mild

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Recusing to review.

  • "is an era in the history of the Ryukyu Islands". Could this roll into a brief explanation of what and/or where the Ryuku Islands are.
    • Done. - G
  • "Shellmidden period". Why the upper-case S?
    • This follows the sources; I think it's to differentiate it as a proper name for the period. - G
  • "Gusuku period". Why the upper-case G? If it is upper case, shouldn't the p be as well?
    • Hmm. Some sources do say "Gusuku period" (a la Yayoi period or Kofun period) but you're right that both words be capitalized is more common. Will adjust and move. - G
  • "from the Dazaifu trade outpost on Kikaijima". This needs unpacking a little. At the moment it isn't comprehensible to a non-expert without diving into the links.
    • Unpacked. - G
  • A map at the bottom of the infobox would be nice.
    • Done. - G
  • "they were built in great numbers". Is it possible to give a number? I took "great numbers" to be several thousand.
    • Gave a rough number and elaborated in the body. - G
  • "merged as tributary kingdoms". Tributary to what?
    • Elaborated. - G
  • "The rise of the local aji nobility steadily ...". What is an aji?
    • Just used "lord" for the lede. - G
  • "simply prestige labels under which they operated". I really don't understand this. What is the "they" that is being labelled? What is the label being applied? In what way is it prestigious?
    • Rephrased this. -G
  • "to achieve political hegemony over the island". What is the difference between "political hegemony" and 'hegemony'?
    • rephrased. - G
  • Could Shō Shin be introduced. It is not clear from the text if it refers to a person a tribe, a nation, or something else.
    • Introduced him. - G
  • "organized a centralized kingdom at Shuri Castle". Erm, perhaps '... governed from Shuri Castle' or similar?
    • Rephrased. - G
  • "ushering in the Ryukyu Kingdom." A tad flowery. Maybe 'marking the start of' or similar?
    • Rephrased. - G

More to follow. Gog the Mild (talk) 19:03, 14 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • "Intermittent human settlement of the land bridge". I can't see where the source suggests that human settlement is intermittent.
    • Rewrote this section.
  • "although recent sites suggest possible initial dates of c. 7000 or c. 12,000 BCE." I am sure that what you mean is not what you have written.
    • Rephrased. - G
  • "This repopulation began the Shellmound or Shellmidden period." Why "repopulation"? When and why were the islands depopulated?
    • Rewrote this section. - G
  • "Complex hunter-gatherer societies emerged during the mid-Shellmidden, but polities such as chiefdoms did not emerge." "... emerged ... emerge ...": is it possible to rewrite to lose one of these?
  • There are 19 cases of "emerged" or "emergence" which a reader starts to notice after a while. Synonym time?
    • De-emerged the article. - G
  • "This is attributed to low populations and carrying capacity before the introduction of intensive agriculture." I don't think that most readers will understand "carrying capacity"; is it possible to rephrase this to be more generally comprehensible? (And is not " attributed to low populations and carrying capacity" having two bites at the same cherry?)
    • Rephrased. - G
  • The "abandonment of agriculture instead of foraging." I don't understand what you trying to say here.
    • Rephrased. - G
  • "evidenced by flotation samples dating to the 800s." I think "flotation samples" unnecessarily confuses a reader. It also reads as if it is the flotation samples which date to c. 800.
    • Rephrased. - G
  • I am struggling to work out whether this paragraph is talking about cereal cultivation, per the first sentence, or agriculture more generally.

Having gone through just the lead and the first section I have come across a lot of instances where the meaning is either unclear or insufficiently explained. To the point that I am leaning oppose. I am going to take a break for a while and then have a look at a random section further down to see if things improve.

Gog the Mild (talk) 14:37, 15 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Trade and foreign relations

  • "Although trade links (mainly of shells)". This doesn't make grammatical sense. In so far as it does, it reads as if shells were being traded for other shells, which I assume is not the case.
    • Rephrased. - G
  • "date to the Yayoi". It would be helpful to a reader if you gave the date, if only in parentheses.
    • Rephrased but added a date to the Yayoi earlier. - G
  • "the transition into the Gusuku period saw the import of Chinese ceramics and Japanese soapstone cauldrons". What was imported previously?
    • clarified. - G
  • "used alongside native earthenware" → 'which was used alongside native earthenware'.
  • "iron knives and magatama from Japan." What are magatama? (See MOS:NOFORCELINK: "Do use a link wherever appropriate, but as far as possible do not force a reader to use that link to understand the sentence. The text needs to make sense to readers who cannot follow links.")
    • Clarified. - G
  • "formal tribute relations". These need explaining in line.
    • Clarified. - G
  • "the establishment of formal tribute status during this period resulted in a much greater volume of trade". Could you give me the wording from the source which supports this.
    • "After the start of formal tribute relations with Ming China in 1372, the material wealth of several major gusuku sites such as Kumejima, Katsuren, Shuri, and Nakijin increased dramatically." - Smits, 2019, p. 35
  • "the Ashikaga shogunate". Add 'Japanese', or better still say 'the feudal military government of Japan'.
    • Clarified. - G
  • "Diplomatic relationships with the Ashikaga shogunate may have been opened by the Lord of Shuri in 1403." My understanding, which may be faulty, is that the Ashikaga shogunate came to power in 1336. If so, I don't see how a trading relationship could be opened 33 years earlier.
    • Rephrased this with a more general statement to avoid hedging bets on a potentially incorrect date or ruler. "Trading relations" here means formal recognition and management of trade as opposed to haphazard merchants - made this clearer in the text. - G
  • "from the late 13th century onward to the end of the Gusuku period." Delete "onward".
    • Done. - G
  • "the Southern Court during the Nanboku-chō period". What were both of these? And ideally give a time period.
    • Clarified. - G
  • "Wokou": a section header in a foreign language, especially when it has not been previously introduced, is not helpful. Perhaps "Piracy"?
    • Renamed. -G
  • "during the late Gusuku period". Give the dates.
    • Done. - G

Sadly I don't feel that this meets the FAC criteria, in particular 1a (its prose is engaging and of a professional standard) and 2 (It follows the style guidelines). Specifically MOS:NOFORCELINK, WP:TECHNICAL and WP:NOTHOW (scientific journal) issues come up frequently enough for me to feel that there are deeper issues here than can reasonably be settled at FAC and so I am regretfully opposing. Gog the Mild (talk) 14:07, 16 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you very much for your thorough review. I will try to resolve this over the next couple days and hopefully bring the prose up to a higher standard. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 15:40, 16 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Gog the Mild: I locked in, went through, and gave the whole thing a prose refresh wherever I could see it. Don't feel obligated to do line by line suggestions or anything, but let me know if there's any areas that still need work. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 02:05, 17 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Gog the Mild: Just checking back in on this. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 04:32, 23 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Apologies for not getting back to you earlier, both RL and WP have been brisk. I doubt I shall be able to give as thorough a re-review as you would like, but I am happy to re-look at at least parts and say what I think.

Lead

  • "Perhaps link era?
    • Done. - G
  • "after a dramatic social and economic shift over the previous centuries." Can a social and economic shift which takes place over centuries be called "dramatic"?
    • Sure, if it dramatically changes how people live. This is essentially a scale model of the Neolithic Revolution, which was quite dramatic. - G
  • "including imports of foreign ceramics". If ceramics are imported it seems redundant to specify them as "foreign".
    • Fair point - corrected. - G
  • "three kingdoms (the Sanzan) emerged tributary kingdoms to the Ming dynasty of China." Is an 'as' missing?
    • Oops, fixed. -G
  • "confederations of nobles or powerful local rulers". Maybe delete "nobles or', as "powerful local rulers" would seem to include them.
    • Fair point. - G
  • "King Shō Hashi of Chūzan became the sole tribute king in Okinawa". Do you mean he was the sole tribute king for the island of Okinawa, or for all of the Ryukyu Islands and he was based in Okinawa?
    • Sort of both, clarified. - G
  • "governed from Shuri Castle". Which was where.
    • Clarified. - G

Emergence of the Ryukyu Kingdom

  • "loose confederations of aji". This is the English language Wikipedia. Why are we confusing readers with avoidable foreign language terms? 'lords'?
    • Fair enough. - G
  • Link polities?
    • Done. - G
  • "They may not have corresponded to territorial control on the island, instead serving as labels which various powerful aji operated under during diplomatic and trade relations with the Ming." This is not as clear as it could be; in particular "during" doesn't seem to work. (In the context of the rest of the sentence.) Perhaps swap this with the last sentence of the paragraph and rephrase?
    • Done. - G
  • "Hashi likely took the throne from Bunei with the aid of Chinese officials." Who or what is Bunei?
    • Clarified. - G
  • "He was a powerful military leader". Hashi or Bunei?
    • Clarified. - G
  • "although probably lacked political control over all of Okinawa." Missing a 'he'.
    • Added. - G
  • "The various other kings of Chūzan followed him as the sole tribute king of Okinawa". I don't understand what "followed" means in this case.
    • Came after, as opposed to preceded - maybe that's a subtle engvar? Anyhow, rephrased. - G
  • "The various other kings of Chūzan followed him as the sole tribute king of Okinawa, forming the First Shō dynasty". This reads as the various other kings of Chūzan forming the First Shō dynasty. Is this what you meant to communicate?
    • Yeah. - G
  • "a rapid series of rulers of only a few years each". You don't need "rapid" and "of only a few years each"
    • Fair enough, rephrased. - G
  • Link warlord?
    • Ok. - G
  • Caption: "18th century depiction of Shō Shin and attendants, as depicted by Shō Genko". Could we avoid depiction and depicted in the same caption?
    • Good point; removed "as depicted"
  • "Wokou": as this is the English language Wikipedia ... ?
    • De-wokoufied. - G

I didn't make it to the end of the Emergence section, but while the article reads a little better than ten days ago, overall I still don't feel that it is up to FA status nor close enough to warrant being worked on at FAC to get it there. Gog the Mild (talk) 22:48, 26 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Gog the Mild Thank you very much for the lookthrough at the very least. I'm curious though - is an oppose of a coordinator considered final in these circumstances, or can this still pass if other reviewers disagree? (also, responded to all your feedback) Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 01:42, 27 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

SC

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Comments to follow. - SchroCat (talk) 05:35, 18 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@SchroCat: Just checking back in on this. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 04:32, 23 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I’ll be here soon. I’ve had an avalanche of work in that (most due before Xmas), that I am having to deal with, but hope to be with you shortly. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 05:49, 23 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I’m really sorry it’s taken so long to get to this, but I’m here now...

  • I’m not sure what is meant by “Their settlement on to the creation of Kamuiyaki ware, a new form of stoneware with cultural influence from Korean ceramics.” Is it ‘Their settlement led to the creation…’?
    • oops, fixed. -G
  • ”practically no indigenous influence whatsoever”: not sure you need the ‘whatsoever’.
    • Removed. - G
  • ”Pre-Proto-Ryukyuan”: lowercase ‘p’ on ‘pre’?
    • Done. - G

Done to the start of Gusuku castles. More to follow. - SchroCat (talk) 18:16, 26 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

MSincccc

Placeholder. MSincccc (talk) 05:53, 25 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The lead is fine. I will return with further comments later. MSincccc (talk) 05:58, 25 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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