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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose (talk) 01:59, 10 August 2014 (diff).

California Chrome

[edit]

Nominator(s): Montanabw(talk) 22:42, 11 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about a California-bred racehorse who won this year's Kentucky Derby and Preakness Stakes, and his owners, all from humble roots and with interesting personalities. The horse is very popular, since the article's creation in March, it has had over 500,000 hits. Montanabw(talk) 22:42, 11 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Comments from Go Phightins!

I'll get the ball rolling here for all those watching with popcorn as per Montanabw's suggestions .

Lead
  • "California Chrome was the first foal of his dam, Love the Chase, who was injured giving birth to him, requiring the mare and foal to stay in a stall for a month while she underwent medical treatment." - sounds kind of "run-on/splicey" to me. Could this possibly be split into two sentences, or reworded such that dam becomes the appositive rather than Love the Chase? Not a huge deal; just struck me as awkward when reading.
  • Reworded. Better? --MTBW
  • "California Chrome was sent to the Shermans' training stable as a two-year-old, selected for its reputation for patiently developing young horses." - the second part here is bothering me ... selected for its reputation comes immediately after the part about the horse being two years old, not after Shermans' training stable, about which it is talking. How about " ... was sent to the Shermans' training stable, which was selected for its reputation for patiently developing young horses, when he was two years old" or similar?
  • Done --MTBW
  • "As early as the Santa Anita Derby, dedicated fan base, who came to be known as "Chromies", actively supported California Chrome, who was called "the people's horse"." That's a crap-load of commas and whatnot. Can it be simplified? "As early as the Santa Anita Derby, a dedicated fan base known as "Chromies" actively supported California Chrome, who was called "the people's horse." or similar?
  • I like your suggestion and killed a comma, but a minor nuance is that they weren't called "Chromies" at the SA Derby yet, the nickname appeared closer to the Kentucky Derby, hence the "came to be known" bit - I'm open to further comments to fix this, though. --MTBW
  • "Arriving at Churchill Downs for the Kentucky Derby, having won his previous four races by a combined total of 24 1⁄4 lengths, he was the morning line favorite." Start the new paragraph by using his name rather than a pronoun.
  • Rephrased. Better? --MTBW
  • "But taking the lead in the homestretch, he was ahead by five lengths until Espinoza eased him up for the final 70 yards (64 m) to not over-exert him, and he won by 1 3⁄4 lengths." This sentence is confusing to me ... so Chrome took the lead during the homestretch and was ahead by five lengths, and then he slowed into the finish so he would not be exerted? If so, then how about something like - "After taking the lead during the homestretch, he was ahead by five lengths until Espinoza eased him up for the final 70 yards to avoid over-exerting him; ultimately, he won by 13⁄4 lengths" or similar?
  • Yup, exactly. The jockey slowed him down on purpose (and was so sure he won that he stood up in his stirrups and saluted with the whip BEFORE crossing the finish line!) I took most of your suggested wording and tweaked a couple other things. Better? --MTBW
  • "...and fifth in the world in the World's Best Racehorse Rankings in their June 12, 2014, listing" I am sorry; that's too many "ins" for one sentence ... can we remove one or two?
  • Killed some "ins" and reworded slightly. Better? --MTBW

Comments from Dr. Blofeld

[edit]
Lead
  • Not sure why " Both the mare and foal were required to stay in a stall for a month while she underwent medical treatment, during which California Chrome imprinted on humans owing to the extra attention he received from people who came by to treat his dam several times a day. His people-focused attitude was later viewed as a useful trait in his training as a racehorse." is really essential to lead. It's a lot more wordy than I think you really need to be. Perhaps trim it a bit?
    • Touched up some, if not enough, I am open to HOW to reword or trim; I've gotten a bit bleary-eyed and tunnel-visioned with this article after living with it since early April. You may be right that it isn't crucial, but that said, his behavior and quirks are part of the story, and (other than the flehmen response thing) mostly seem to be linked to his fondness for people. Montanabw(talk) 21:55, 14 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Arriving at Churchill Downs for the Kentucky Derby" -can you add the date or month?
    • Rephrased, scratched my head a bit before putting date at end of sentence. Better? --MTBW
Background
  • "After her win, Steve Coburn and Perry Martin became her official owners." -when was this?
    • Added date of race. Don't have date of actual purchase. Better? --MTBW
  • Curious as to what "horse cookies" are. An article on them would be great or a footnote explaining what they are might be useful. I gather they're not Oreos or Jammy Dodgers LOL.
  • Observers have commented that California Chrome appears to be a very intelligent horse.. this paragraph shold probably go under a sub section title Behaviour as it needs too specific to really be general background.
    • OK. --MTBW
  • "Are the details like 28th anniversary and all that really essential? Some of the info given seems a bit more detailed than needed for the owners. Some of the info and quotes read like something out of a horse magazine rather than an encyclopedia article like " "[Coburn] was at the heat of the moment. And don't forget, he's a fairly new owner. Sometimes the emotions get in front of you ... He hasn't been in the game long and hasn't had any bad luck." ". and "Art Sherman liked the enthusiasm of Martin and Coburn,[22] but when Martin emailed his plan for which races California Chrome should run in to reach the Kentucky Derby, Sherman was dubious. Nonetheless, after the horse won the Preakness, Alan Sherman stated, "[Martin] mapped out a trail for this horse; it's actually worked to a 'T', so it's kinda amazing."[25] Art Sherman downplays his role in training California Chrome, saying "This horse is my California rock star. I'm just his manager."[60]" It reads as too wordy for an encyclopedia article I think which should really be stripped down to the essentials and get straight to the point.
    • I'd like to maybe move this bit to talk and discuss details of how to chop it; I agree that there probably is some cruft in here, as I was updating the article in real time as it developed. That said, the people story is a big deal, but per BIO1E, other than Art Sherman, these people are probably not likely to warrant their own WP article. It's virtually unheard of for all that stuff to have come together - first time breeders, all but first time owners, predict they had a Derby horse practically from birth and then win it, the huge fan base (even Secretariat didn't have people showing up wearing tinfoil and tattoos) and so on. The story here is basically that Coburn shoots his mouth off a lot but the Martins are the brains of the operation but so press-shy that I think they've had maybe one TV interview, two at most. Coburn's Belmont outburst (on National television) was a really big deal and the press is still ranting about it. --MTBW
    • I chopped the anniversary thing but it mattered at the time because Coburn said (also on national TV) at the Preakness that the Martins avoided the Preakness because they were pissed at how they got treated at the Derby when they said is was just their anniversary... So let's workshop that bit --MTBW
  • "Sherman viewed the colt's "rough trips" in perspective" -not sure what you mean here
    • Rephrased. Better? --MTBW
  • "In December, California Chrome was switched to a new type of horseshoe" -perhaps "began wearing a new type of horseshoe" would fit better here?
    • OK. --MTBW
  • "It may have been a contributing factor to California Chrome's subsequent series of wins." -according to whom?
    • Sources got mixed up in a rewrite, put the proper source that attributes the streak to the shoes at the end of the sentence. Better? --MTBW
Racing history
  • "Sherman was impressed with Espinoza's riding, and Espinoza was impressed " -rep of impressed.
    • Agree it's awk, do you have a suggested rewording for the mutual admiration society that developed? Rephrased. Better? --MTBW
  • "assigned 124 pounds" -I gather this is common horse terminology but I'm not quite sure what it means. Given a weight classification or was weighed at that and classified as such or what?
    • It's a Handicap, but I wikilinked to impost because the races in question were not called handicaps and I didn't want to create even more confusion. The weight is how much the horse carried on its back. Jockey and saddle plus any extra weight needed to even out the horses -better ones get more weight. At first use, I reworded a couple of times to "He was one of four horses to carry 120 pounds (54 kg), the highest impost assigned in the race..." Is that better? (Open to further ways to improve so long as we don't have a digression into what a handicap race is, except that a Maiden special weight isn't technically a handicap... you get the idea... ) --MTBW
  • "In a post-race press interview, Sherman said he had visited Swaps' grave at the Kentucky Derby Museum prior to the Derby: "I said a little prayer and it came true, I said I hope he's another Swaps." Trainer Dale Romans, who had asserted that California Chrome had no chance to win, said, "I was very, very wrong ... We might have just seen a super horse and a super trainer. You don't fake your way to the winner's circle at the Kentucky Derby."[120] Dallas Stewart later admitted, "Oh, yeah, I was wrong."[10" -not sure you need this here, "In a post-race press interview, Sherman stated that he had visited Swaps' grave at the Kentucky Derby Museum prior to the Derby and prayed for success" should do.
    • I chopped the Sherman bit. Dale Romans was one of the biggest naysayers and is one of the most famous trainers in the country, so admitting he was wrong was sort of a big deal; people who follow the sport know who he is and why his quote was selected. I chopped Stewart, though seeing him eat crow was rather satisfying because he was such a jerk before the race. --MTBW
  • "California Chrome shipped via air to Baltimore for the 2014 Preakness Stakes" -when was this?
    • About a week out. Does it matter? --MTBW
I think so, yeah, because it's really very soon afterwards and readers would probably want an indication of timeline.♦ Dr. Blofeld 10:24, 15 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • There's a rather a lot of quotes towards the end of Preakness Stakes which I'm not sure are all essential.
    • I trimmed some. Bob Baffert is probably the most famous race horse trainer in the USA, so him throwing in the towel was big deal, but I trimmed some of his stuff too. Better? --MTBW
  • ""Hey listen, we'll be here to fight another day, I'm just happy he's all in one piece." -not really needed.
    • Yeah, OK, but it's charming.  ;-) --MTBW
Pedigree

I gather that the guidelines for horse articles state that this should go in the bottom section. It's just the history background of the horse breeding lines I'd probably expect to see first in the background section.

    • Pedigree charts are always at the bottom. Not all articles have the detailed narrative, but when reading the details it helps to have the pedigree right there to refer to, and also, to put all that analysis in the "background" section up at the top would make the casual readers' eyes glaze over. (Kind of like the "begats" in Genesis!) Usually the background section has a short summary about the sire and dam's personal history, as here. The stuff of primary interest to horse aficionados can go a bit farther down because they will dig for it!  ;-) Better?--MTBW
Refs
  • Why is ref 51 all in lower casing?
    • Fixed --MTBW

Overall it's very informative and obviously has had a lot of effort and love go into it, but IMO it's too informative and long. 135kb is very long for an article on a relatively young racehorse. It contains a lot of details which I don't think anybody other than a "Chromie" would want to know. A lot of the details read a little like a magazine story on the horse; a lot of the quotes don't really help this. I understand that you'd be reluctant to condense it down too much but I think you could go through the article and pay attention primarily to giving the reader the basic facts and strip down anything which you think might detract from it or not be essential this would be an immediate improvement. Look at any paragraph and think how you might relay the same info in less words and detail and eliminate anything which you think might affect the reader getting a basic grasp of what is being said. I say this as in some sections there is so much detail on what the trainers said and did etc that I had to double check again and try to glean from it what the horse did and what happened. I'd lean towards support if you could strip it down a bit and make it more concise. I think you could get it down to 100kb without too much difficulty, certainly 120kb. If not possible, then anything you can do to shorten it and make it more concise without losing the important facts would be an improvement. If you're not convinced that it needs trimming feel free to ask the opinion of Eric or anybody else, it might just be me!♦ Dr. Blofeld 11:10, 14 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@Dr. Blofeld: I agree that this is a bit bloated, but compare to Mucho Macho Man, which passed FAC a few months back. It's hard for me to determine precisely what to trim at this point, as noted, I've just become bleary-eyed. Your idea of trimming quotes is a good one, I'm open to other ideas. Maybe give me 24 hours and then take a look. That said, given American race horse careers, unless something really odd happens, (Or Coburn shoots his mouth off again in an even more colorful fashion) the rest of his racing career is apt to be summed up as "at the end of his three year old season, he did or didn't win the Breeders' Cup Classic and Horse of the Year. In his four year old season, he won races X,Y, and Z and then his owners retired him to stud, syndicating him for X million dollars." It's actually rare for a Derby-winning stallion to run past his 4-year old year - too much money to be made in the breeding shed. --MTBW
  • Follow up: did some chopping, we are using different measurement tools, but using the User:Dr_pda/prosesize javascript tool, I've trimmed readable prose from 49K to 46K which was a chop of about 500 words, mostly quotations. Let me know if you have some areas you'd like me to scrutinize further. Montanabw(talk) 02:27, 15 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for that. I still think you could lose another 10 kb without too much difficulty though. I'll give it a read again later this week and try to be more specific with what I think could be cut. The content is certainly all there for FA anyway but my feeling is that as an encyclopedia article it needs to be more punchy and concise. On raw kb it's nearly twice the length of your Macho Man article! ♦ Dr. Blofeld 06:51, 15 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Your idea of looking at quotations was a good one and I saw several that were chopable. Point me to other places where your eyes glazed over and I'll focus in. MMM was pretty cool, but he basically won one really big race but with a cool back story. CC won six in a row with an even quirkier back story. Montanabw(talk) 07:24, 15 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Let's see what could be removed then:

  • ""Fans are coming out of nowhere", said Perry Martin."
  • Chopped--MTBW
  • "Perry Martin has an MBA,[11] a degree in applied physics from Michigan Technological University,[31] and an advanced degree in solid state physics from the University of Illinois-Chicago.[25] Denise Martin is MTL's senior chemist, managing the company's fatigue testing and thermal analytics.[24] They celebrated their 28th anniversary on the weekend of the Preakness, thus missing seeing the race live.[32] They married in 1986,[32] and moved to California in 1987, where Perry Martin was employed as a metallurgist by the Air Force and Denise briefly job shadowed a racehorse trainer in the Sacramento area.[25] Perry Martin performed testing and analysis work, including work on Air Force weapons systems.[33] He wrote the Electronic Failure Analysis Handbook, published by McGraw-Hill in 1999.[34]

Steve Coburn, characterized by the media as "loquacious",[35][36] describes himself and his wife as "just everyday people".[21][24] He grew up in central California and was familiar with horses. He worked herding cattle at a feedlot,[11] participated in rodeos, and worked at some ranching jobs.[37] He now is a press operator for a company that makes magnetic strips.[22] Carolyn Coburn retired in March 2014 from a career working in payroll in the health care industry.[24] Carolyn introduced Steve to horse racing, and when he was looking for a tax write-off, she encouraged him to buy into a racing syndicate instead of purchasing a small airplane"

The article is about the horse not the owners. While some very briefly would be relevant, I'd create articles on them and remove all of this or trim to barely a sentence or two. I'd create an article on DAP Racing and include their bios in it if you think they're not notable enough individually. This was the most problematic part for me.♦ Dr. Blofeld 08:18, 15 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I've heard this mentioned by multiple reviewers, and I DO see your point to some extent, but as I have also fought and lost battles on the drama boards in BIO1E land, and I am pretty certain that the deletionist warriors would not allow a stand-alone article to exist. If they win the Oaks in two years with 'Chrome's little sister, then we probably could justify it. But at the moment, given that the horse is their ONLY race horse and the first horse they've ever bred, it's actually kind of difficult to separate the people from their critter. All that said, we can chat about it some more and see if we can reach a solution. Perhaps I will also post at WP horse racing and see what folks there think. The project's notability criteria for horses is winning a grade 1 race, for trainers and jockeys it's a little more; Sherman becomes notable enough for his own article for both 'Chrome plus his connection to Swaps on top of a 50+ year career. --MTBW
Reading a horse article though I don't care when the owners got married!!♦ Dr. Blofeld 06:23, 16 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      • I trimmed this a little, per comment above, I am concerned that the BIO1E police would not consider these folks "notable." I've fought and lost a couple of these, I can just hear them now saying "merge to California Chrome." The owners are a big part of this story, but not as big as Claiborne Farm. (Few racehorses have owners notable as owners, unless for other reasons, such as, for example, Jim Rome --MTBW
  • "Art Sherman's assistant is his son, Alan,[57] who is also a licensed trainer.[23] Alan was a jockey for three years in the 1980s until, as he put it, "I ate my way out of that job." As a jockey, he rode in southern California for trainers such as Charlie Whittingham and won over a million dollars in purse money, while closely observing how his employers trained their horses, anticipating that some day he too would become a trainer. Rather than run an independent training stable like his brother Steve, Alan has worked with his father since 1991." - Could be trimmed to "Art Sherman's assistant is his son, Alan, a licensed trainer who was a jockey for three years in the 1980s". Merge with previous paragraph.
    • Another BIO1E problem. In theory, some of that could go into the Art Sherman article, but as Alan Sherman has basically let his dad take all the credit while, especially now, he is doing most of the work, I'm not quite sure what to do, want to be sure credit is given where credit is due - somehow, the guy definitely deserves more than just a passing, "is the assistant." Thoughts? --MTBW
  • "Art Sherman liked the enthusiasm of Martin and Coburn,[22] but when Martin emailed his "Road to the Kentucky Derby" plan outlining which races California Chrome should run, Sherman was dubious. Later, Alan Sherman stated, "[Martin] mapped out a trail for this horse; it's actually worked to a 'T', so it's kinda amazing."[25] Art Sherman downplays his role in training California Chrome, saying "This horse is my California rock star. I'm just his manager."[59]" None of this is really essential or that encyclopedic.
    • That I think should - mostly - be kept, though I'm open to streamlining the prose. The email is a big part of the story - that a first time breeder creates a plan and it happens. Really almost Twilight Zone-ish. --MTBW
  • "Steve Coburn said he had a dream not long before California Chrome's birth that the foal would be a colt with four white feet and a blaze.[43] California Chrome was relatively large for a newborn horse, weighing 137 pounds (62 kg). Martin described the foal as "running circles around Momma" within two hours of birth.[44" -trim to simply "California Chrome was relatively large for a newborn horse, weighing 137 pounds (62 kg)."
    • The dream thing is a part of the horse's story, it was out there over and over again. Explained why the other is in there. The dam was injured, but the foal was fine and athletic from early on. Rephrased it a bit though. --MTBW
  • " Alan Sherman said, "My jaw dropped",[86] while Art Sherman joked, "I'm glad I'm training at Los Alamitos, because he looked like a 350 [yard] horse coming out of the gate",[87] a reference to Quarter Horse racing distances. Espinoza simply remarked, "I wanted to let him enjoy his race,"[88] later adding, "I wanted to see if he [could] go wire to wire ... that was the day I found out how much he loves to run."[7" -not really encyclopedic
    • ."Encyclopedic" doesn't have to mean "boring." The truth was that the horse really blew away the field and even shocked his trainers. But to say "he blew away the field and shocked his trainers with his speed" would be WP:SYNTH. So let them tell the story and the readers can draw their own conclusions ;-)--MTBW
  • "Once on the ground, their van had a police escort from the airport to the track.[120] Just as before the Derby, the horse galloped on the Pimlico track, but had no timed workouts.[121][122] Delgado, who had previously ridden and trained in Maryland, compared the long and narrow Pimlico oval favorably to the colt's home track at Los Alamitos.[123] Sherman did not like that the horse had to run again with only a two-week break, but was confident that California Chrome was eating well, had gained back any weight he had lost running the Derby, plus had gained another 35 pounds (16 kg) by Preakness day.[121] When he arrived at Pimlico to prepare for the Preakness, the management at that track welcomed him with two saddlecloths for his workouts, one with the "Califorina" misspelling and the other with the correct spelling,[109] because the misspelled cloth was starting to be viewed as a good luck token.[110]

News stories prior to the Preakness discussed the relatively slow pace of the Derby and the low Beyer Speed Figure of 97 earned by California Chrome in his win, saying the fresh "speed horses" who had not run in the Derby would challenge him over the shorter distance of the Preakness. Manny Azpurua, 85-year-old trainer of new rival Social Inclusion, who ran third in the Wood Memorial, asserted that the Preakness field would be stronger than the Derby field, saying, "California Chrome has to prove again he's the best 3-year-old."[124][125] Sherman responded, "He's got enough lick that he can stay with any horse in the race. He likes a target to run at."[126] California Chrome was assigned the number three post position and was the morning line odds-on favorite at 3–5.[124] Sherman was not troubled by the inside spot.[127] Followers noted that Secretariat had also run the 1973 Preakness Stakes from the number three post.[128] Owner Coburn was optimistic: "One race at a time, but I'm still thinking Triple Crown."[129] The Thursday before the race, California Chrome was observed coughing four times after his morning gallop, prompting media speculation about his health. He had a small blister in his throat, which he also had prior to the Kentucky Derby, both times treated with a glycerine throat wash. When the condition first appeared in Kentucky, Alan Sherman stated that a veterinarian had checked the horse and performed blood work; other than the "itchy" throat, he was in good health.[130] The intense press attention paid to the relatively minor issue was dismissively dubbed "throat-gate" by sportswriter Bill Dwyre of the Los Angeles Times.[131]" I'd condense all of this down to:

"Once on the ground, their van had a police escort from the airport to the track.[120] Just as before the Derby, the horse galloped on the Pimlico track, but had no timed workouts. Sherman did not like that the horse had to run again with only a two-week break, but was confident that California Chrome was eating well, had gained back any weight he had lost running the Derby, plus had gained another 35 pounds (16 kg) by Preakness day.[121] When he arrived at Pimlico to prepare for the Preakness, the management at that track welcomed him with two saddlecloths for his workouts, one with the "Califorina" misspelling and the other with the correct spelling,[109] because the misspelled cloth was starting to be viewed as a good luck token.[110]

California Chrome was assigned the number three post position and was the morning line odds-on favorite at 3–5.[124] Sherman was not troubled by the inside spot.[127] Followers noted that Secretariat had also run the 1973 Preakness Stakes from the number three post. California Chrome was observed coughing four times after his morning gallop, prompting media speculation about his health. He had a small blister in his throat, which he also had prior to the Kentucky Derby; it was treated with a glycerine throat wash. The intense press attention paid to the relatively minor issue was dismissively dubbed "throat-gate" by sportswriter Bill Dwyre of the Los Angeles Times."

    • Tightened some, not quite as much as you have, but chopped several quotes. Better? --MTBW
  • "Sherman said California Chrome was "tired" after the race but that he would be "fine" for the Belmont. " -not really needed.
    • Hmm. Debatable. Rephrased a little to tighten, but the point is that he probably didn't lose the Belmont because he was tired out. Thoughts? -MTBW
  • "California Chrome galloped daily for up to 2 miles (3.2 km) and Delgado commented, "I can tell you he loves this track, and I don't see him (having) any problem getting a mile and a half."[150] Alan Sherman commented on California Chrome's conditioning: "He's never taken a step back, he just keeps getting better and better and improving. It's kind of scary, really." He added, "This horse has just taken us on the ride of our lives."[151] Fisher flew to New York to put on a new set of horseshoes,[77] and Espinoza arrived to give the colt a short workout known as a "breeze", on May 31. Horse and rider were greeted by a large contingent of fans and press at about 6:30 a.m., and ran a half-mile (0.80 km) officially clocked at 47.69 seconds, a time described as "sharp" by the press, and "exactly what we wanted" by Alan Sherman. A clocker for the Daily Racing Form stated, "He's going to be tough to beat. I think we're going to have a Triple Crown winner."[152]" -could trim to:

"California Chrome galloped daily for up to 2 miles (3.2 km) and Delgado commented, "I can tell you he loves this track, and I don't see him (having) any problem getting a mile and a half."[150] Horse and rider were greeted by a large contingent of fans and press at about 6:30 a.m. The horse ran a half-mile (0.80 km) in a brisk 47.69 seconds, leading the clocker for the Daily Racing Form to state, "He's going to be tough to beat. I think we're going to have a Triple Crown winner."[152]

    • He galloped daily where zillions of press watched, it was only at the breeze with Espinoza that kazillions of fans showed up to. But trimming and tightening some. --MTBW
  • "Eleven horses entered the Belmont Stakes, and California Chrome drew post position 2, which was also the post position of Secretariat in the 1973 Belmont.[154] Ride On Curlin and General a Rod also entered;[h] these were the only other horses besides California Chrome to contest all three legs of the Triple Crown. Returning from the Kentucky Derby, having skipped the Preakness, were Commanding Curve, who was second in the Derby, along with Wicked Strong, Medal Count, and Samraat. "New Shooters" who had not run in either of the previous Triple Crown races included Tonalist, Commissioner, Matterhorn, and Matuszak.[155] Tonalist and Commissioner had run first and second at Belmont Park in the Peter Pan Stakes on May 10.[136] Matterhorn had run fourth in that race.[155] Statisticians noted that no Triple Crown-winning horse had competed against more than seven other horses in the Belmont, and only two, Seattle Slew and Citation, had faced that many.[156]

Prior to the race, the trainer of Wicked Strong, stated, "One of our horses will have to run the race of his life, and California Chrome is going to have to throw in a clunker."[157] Laura Hillenbrand, author of Seabiscuit: An American Legend, noting the "odd cast of characters around him," was a supporter.[110] Anticipating the possibility of a Triple Crown champion, several people connected to the last three Triple Crown winners announced plans to be at the Belmont, including 92-year-old Penny Chenery, owner of Secretariat; Patrice Wolfson, who co-owned Affirmed; and some of Seattle Slew's connections—trainer Billy Turner and co-owner Jim Hill. The jockeys of the three past winners, Steve Cauthen, Jean Cruguet, and Ron Turcotte, also announced they would attend. Cauthen, jockey of Affirmed, stated, "This horse has got a great chance of pulling it off," but added, "you never know, that's why they have to run the race."[158]" -this is really excessive wording I think I'd trim to:

"Eleven horses entered the Belmont Stakes, and California Chrome drew post position 2, which was also the post position of Secretariat in the 1973 Belmont.[154] Ride On Curlin and General a Rod also entered;[h] these were the only other horses besides California Chrome to contest all three legs of the Triple Crown. Anticipating the possibility of a Triple Crown champion, several people connected to the last three Triple Crown winners announced plans to be at the Belmont, including 92-year-old Penny Chenery, owner of Secretariat; Patrice Wolfson, who co-owned Affirmed; and some of Seattle Slew's connections—trainer Billy Turner and co-owner Jim Hill. The jockeys of the three past winners, Steve Cauthen, Jean Cruguet, and Ron Turcotte, also announced they would attend. Cauthen, jockey of Affirmed, stated, "This horse has got a great chance of pulling it off," but added, "you never know, that's why they have to run the race."[158]"

    • Chopped some of that, kept what I think was relevant. It was one of the "new shooters" who won (prompting Coburn's rant) and another who stepped on Chrome at the start. Take a look. --MTBW
  • "Sherman was relieved that the tendon injury was superficial, and when asked if the heel injury had cost the horse a chance to win, replied, "It couldn't have helped him any."[162] Sherman explained that he saw the horse throw his head up in the homestretch and knew that something was not right. He later speculated that the sand and dirt of the racetrack were causing pain in the open wound.[164] The following day, Sherman assured the press that both injuries would heal up, and that the heel injury was, luckily, not a quarter crack in the hoof.[165]" - could trim to

"Sherman speculated that the sand and dirt of the racetrack were causing pain in the open wound, and knew that something wasn't right when he saw the horse throw his head up in the homestretch. The following day, he assured the press that both injuries would heal up, and that the heel injury was, luckily, not a quarter crack in the hoof.[165]"

    • Diced and chopped a little, reworded. Better? --MTBW

That should be the bulk of it. If you can respond to most of those the article should read and flow a lot better I think without losing anything really vital. I'll support once it is condensed down further.♦ Dr. Blofeld 09:14, 15 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: now at 44 kB (7700 words). per Dr. pda tool. Was 49K. Have chopped about 700-800 words. Montanabw(talk) 20:05, 16 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It's starting to look better. Sure, discuss that on the talk page.♦ Dr. Blofeld 20:11, 16 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I posted the question of a spinoff to DAP racing at WP:Horse racing. If you can think of some other appropriate WP:GNG venues that aren't haunted by trolls, let me know. I'm very reluctant to chop too much unless it can be moved without being viewed as a Fork or a BIO1E thing. Montanabw(talk) 00:08, 18 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Gerda

[edit]

Thanks for a detailed, informative article. A few comments for now:

Lead

  • I suggest a new paragraph for "When two years old", - I thought it was still about the owners.
    • Reworded; already am at four paragrpahs. Better? --MTBW
      • yes --GA

Background

  • I don't like any image directly under a heading, and I think this one, showing the grown horse, would fit better in the next para about behaviour.
    • Blofeld just made me add a subheader, it will wind up under a third level heading now if I move it. Can you live with it where it's at? --MTBW
      • It's not a question of life and death, but the image of the grown horse - while he is just born - is strange, also traditional me still follows former imagelocation ideas. --GA
        • No baby pics are available with a free license. This one is a photo of the horse showing his friendly character; it's actually a crop of File:CalChrome and MD Gov.jpg but I chopped out the politicians, who needs 'em?  ;-) I can't really say in the caption, "see how friendly this horse is" because that's OR, but if a picture is worth 1000 words... ;-) I DID add some more dates. Montanabw(talk) 02:27, 15 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
          • I moved it bit, revert if you don't like it ---GA
            • It's OK. If someone moves is back, that's OK too. As they say, "Whatever" ;-) --MTBW
a smiling elderly man in a gray suit, wearing sunglasses
Art Sherman, 2014
  • I tried to move Art the same way, and got his son right below (left) to look "inward". For the small pics, I suggest to just mention the year, not the race. Especially the son could be anywhere. Btw: "alt=a smiling elderly man" made me smile ;) ----GA

Ownership

  • I almost feel that the owners deserve their own article. (Love DAP)
    • They could, but the WP:BIO1E bandits will probably AfD it. I don't need the drahmahz!  :-P --MTBW
      • with you on that --GA
  • How about dates with the quotes, for people who are not so familiar with race names? In general.
    • Will better wikilinking do the same? I tend to disfavor a wall of dates...? Ah! The quote boxes! OK, done! --MTBW
  • Same for images, in general.
    • Ditto? --MTBW
      • For both the above: linking helps me who can hover and see, - but asking the reader for an extra click is asking a lot. If I see a man, I would like to know if that photo is recent or twenty years old, - but it's also not a question of life and death. --GA
        • Added 2014 to some of the images, does that help? -MBBW
          • yes ---GA
  • The reactions to the Belmont are not easy to understand before we know more about it.
    • I could move the Coburn stuff down to the Belmont section. Give me a bit and see what you think. --MTBW
      • Good idea! --GA
        • Done, Better? --MTBW
          • yes ---GA

Need a break. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:38, 14 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

See you tomorrow --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:16, 14 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
back ---Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:28, 15 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Early years

  • An image of the farm would be nice, ----Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:02, 16 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    • Not impossible for me to grab a screenshot, I got File:Lucky Pulpit.jpg 01.png from here and they do have ranch shots. They show the place itself from about 0:20 to 0:53. See anything there worth trying to pull a still shot from? --MTBW
  • "racehorses such as two-time Breeders' Cup Classic winner Tiznow", racehorses such as two-time, what do you think of "racehorses such as Tiznow, a two-time Breeders' Cup Classic winner"?
    • OK. --MTBW
  • It's a bit confusing to me to first read about the 2010 breeding, then about the (failed) 2009, without indication of "previously", then 2014, then dream, then back to born.
    • Put 2009 and 2010 chronologically and threw the rest into a footnote. Better? --MTBW
      • Yes. Consider to move the Lucky Pulpit pic to here, show dad where he's mentioned first, ----GA
                • OK, did so, but now have a left-facing image under a level three header again. Hope you can live with that, as no good way to make 2 paras there, I don't think. (We could toss the "behavior" subheader, though...)--MTBW
  • Can the naming come sooner? Perhaps already in the Background section?
    • He didn't get his "official" name until 2013, just before he raced as a 2-year-old. I clarified the chronology. If you still think that paragraph could go up to the beginning of the background section, I can do it, but it would throw the timeline off - is is OK as is? --MTBW
      • yes ----GA
  • "Because many Thoroughbred trainers are unfamiliar with the Los Alamitos facility, the success of California Chrome, who was conditioned there, created good publicity for the track." - "Because"? not a reason.
    • Clarified. Any better? --MTBW
      • yes ----GA

2013

Barefoot hoof, lateral view. Coronet band (1), walls (2), toe (3), quarter (4), heel (5), bulb (6), P2 (small pastern) (7 (comment: heels are a little bit too low)
A horse hoof that's healthier than the one in the chart above, does NOT have low heels
  • "low heels"?
    • Complex concept, let me think about it. I wish horse hoof was a better article, but I'll put up the photo they use to show you the parts and another one that I took of a healthier hoof. If I explain, perhaps you can help think of better wording: A horse's hoof is, basically, a gigantic fingernail that has to be trimmed periodically and the horseshoes repositioned. (see also farrier). Sometimes the hoof wears or grows unevenly and, on Thoroughbred race horses in particular (for reasons too complicated to explain here) their heels tend to grow slower that their toes, getting out of proportion and balance, which can make them go lame. Short of a dissertation on hoof care here's one, though, help me determine what would improve this and make it clearer. --MTBW
      • Follow up: The news stories all just say variations on "developed low heels." It's so common in Thoroughbreds, I'd be venturing into OR or SYNTH to explain what I know - any thoughts on how I can clarify without rousing the ALLCAPS police? --MTBW
        • What do you think of some of this in the hoof article, then link to the section? Or Wiktionaire? It's not a term I heard before. ----GA
            • Hoof does need work. Let me think about how much time I have. --MTBW

Fine story to the end. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:13, 15 July 2014 (UTC) End of round three ----Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:58, 16 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Support, my points were addressed, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:41, 26 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - spotchecks not done

  • Broken links
    • Fixed two now, will get the rest in a bit. --MBTW
  • Quotes should be cited immediately in the lead, even if cited later
    • Not my read of MOS, these are "scare quotes" indicative of neologisms more than people's direct quotations, but cite to the exact policy/guideline and I'll look at it. --MTBW
  • FN4: which Lexington?
  • Courier-Journal or The Courier-Journal? Herald-Leader or Lexington Herald-Leader? Baltimore Sun or The Baltimore Sun? Paulick Report or The Paulick Report?
    • Fixed--MTBW
  • Be consistent in when you include locations for publications
    • Tossed them all --MTBW
  • FN19, 39, 98: publisher?
    • Fixed--MTBW
  • Several LDR cite errors
    • Any places other than something already listed? If more errors than these say so. --MTBW
  • FN75, 160: work?
    • Fixed --MTBW
  • FN79: why include publisher here and not for other newspapers?
    • How about you reword that "FN79 is inconsistent because it lists publisher when others don't?" Tossed --MTBW
  • FN83: verify title spelling
    • You could also say, Title appears to have a typo. Fixed. --MTBW
  • FN82, 84: need endashes not hyphens
    • I think I fixed them but I honestly cannot distinguish a hyphen from an endash in the editing window, so any you want to fix yourself in the future, go for it. (No, still haven't had the cataract surgery yet) --MTBW
  • FN85: this doesn't match other Blood-Horse refs
    • Fixed--MTBW
  • Associated Press is an agency not an author
    • Well last FAC I had you were OK with that. And it isn't in the web template. So say what you think will fix it --MTBW
  • FN147: why no accessdate here when other newspapers have them?
    • That's snarky, just say "missing access date." Fixed --MTBW
  • Is Fox Sports a publisher or a work? Nikkimaria (talk) 23:55, 15 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    • That's a snarky question. Just point out the error. I made it a work, but whatever. You could have said "multiple Fox Sports refs - they are inconsistent if work or publisher" --MTBW
  • FN126: use work instead of publisher
    • Fixed --MTBW
    • @Nikkimaria:, I think all done, save for the couple I commented on. Your comments would be easier to fix if they were less cryptic in places and all issued with less condescension and sarcasm. I made a few simple suggestions above and will fix everything that you have flagged or comment further if I think it's fine. Montanabw(talk) 16:52, 16 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      • No condescension or sarcasm was meant: I phrase some points as questions because there are occasionally reasons to format things in a certain way, and I don't know whether you chose to do that deliberately or not. If you check the rest of the FAC page you'll find that I do this on many reviews. Nikkimaria (talk) 22:15, 16 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
        • Well, keep working on those people skills! As for here, did I fix everything that needed to be fixed? Montanabw(talk) 00:04, 18 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
          • No. Broken links still there, still a number of LDR errors, still inconsistencies in publication titles (ex. The Courier-Journal in FN 32 and just Courier-Journal in 99), still inconsistencies in italicization (ex. ESPN italicized in 164 but not 139) - generally a number of inconsistencies needing correction. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:33, 18 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Well, when you list the footnotes by number, that helps, because I honestly do not see "a number" of the errors sometimes, and it is truly a vision problem in part when scanning massive amounts of small text. (as my constant two-edit-to-fix-typo pattern shows). I know I fixed two broken links, I'll check the link to see if there are more? I also do not object if you want to make these minor fixes when you see them, might save time. Montanabw(talk) 19:34, 18 July 2014 (UTC) Follow up: I think I got all the broken links now, I had to purge your above link and reset, but now I think I have them all. Please advise if otherwise. Montanabw(talk) 22:39, 18 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Still two dead: "As for Preakness stories..." and "Accidental Favorite". As to the rest, because many of the issues were with consistency rather than accuracy, you will need to check my changes to make sure you're okay with the options I chose. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:47, 19 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I'll figure out those (why they don't archive those with redirect links is beyond me, sigh). As for the refs, I really think must of that is an issue of style over substances, so your version is fine. Montanabw(talk) 20:06, 21 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Crisco comments - This will quite likely take me a few days. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 10:33, 22 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    • I agree with the comments above that the owners are likely notable enough for an article. (And I think "Dumb Ass Partners" in a DYK will be quite interesting).
        • If all of you help me if the deletionists attack, I'm in. stay tuned. --MTBW
    • I feel as though the lede could be trimmed a little. It is 662 words, or 3,904 characters with spaces. That is almost 10% of the article. Perhaps tighten the prose and remove information not all that pertinent to Chrome? (For instance, the meaning of DAP and the men's wives also being active in racing)
          • Reasonable. I'll see what I can do. --MTBW
    • All of this information about Lucky Pulpit shouldn't follow a "who" construction, I think.
        • Horses are living creatures not inanimate things, and in particular, named creatures are individuals. I loathe using "it" under such circumstances. I'm actually rather fierce about that.  ;-) --MTBW
    • the Martins - who are they?
      • Perry Martin and his wife, Denise -- where was that unclear? I'll fix. --MTBW
    • Wouldn't there be enough on Love the Chase to have an article on her (and thus save us another hundred words here?)
        • No. California Chrome is her only racing foal, the other two are still babies. We DID create a new article on Lucky Pulpit, however
    • Why the white space in #Behavior?
            • Was trying to keep photo from bleeding into next section. I'm going to move the Lucky Pulpit photo down, now that the other has been tossed, so that issue should be resolved. --MTBW
    • <shudder>Marriage info? Anniversaries? Pretty darn irrelevant to Chrome.
      • Background on owners, but main issue was that Coburn shot off his mouth at the Preakness, saying the Martins were skipping the race because they got pisssed at how rudely they were treated at Churchill Downs, the Martins said it was just their anniversary. But per above, I'll figure out how to trim it. --MTBW
    • Perry Martin performed testing and analysis work, including work on Air Force weapons systems. - redundant to what you already wrote above
        • OK, will fix--MTBW
    • A lot of the information about the owners jumps from place to place. I'd expect their year of marriage to be before the mention of their anniversary, etc.
        • OK, will fix--MTBW
    • Lots of sentences beginning "He" in the paragraph beginning "Steve Coburn"
        • OK, will fix--MTBW
    • Tiznow - worth a redlink?
      • Hm. He should have his own article, won the Breeders' Cup Classic. So yes. --MTBW
    • imprinted - worth linking?
      • Yes, not all people know what that is. --MTBW
    • they had kept horses at Hollywood Park, but when it closed in December 2013, Los Alamitos Race Course picked up some of the racing trainers who had stabled horses there, including Sherman Training Stables. Los Alamitos is better-known as a track for Quarter Horse racing, but took over some of Hollywood Park's Thoroughbred racing dates in 2014. - Some redundancy (implicit) that could be worked through with reworking
        • OK, will fix, open to specific suggestions--MTBW
    • Is his early life and training quite "background" information? In an article on the horse, I'd expect such information to actually be rather important. Section may need to be retitled.
        • "Background" is sort of the standard header for these sections throughout the WP Horse racing articles. Not opposed to something better, but it would be different from the other several thousand horse "biographies" that have this section title. --MTBW
    • Skipping ahead and looking at the nearly incomprehensible (to me, as I my first response remains "who cares", although I know on the logical level why it's necessary for the article) Pedigree section, I wonder why the information on sire and dam cannot be focused here instead.
              • Also standard layout for horse racing biographies, summary of horse's over all life other than race record at start, with pedigree at end. The pedigree analysis may make non-horse-owner's eyes glaze over, which is why it is toward the end, but keep in mind that I have the same reaction to baseball statistics and car engine specifications. --MTBW
    • If he is 4 × 5 to Northern Dancer, then shouldn't this inbreeding be marked in the (considerably more simple to understand) table?
      • Pedigree chart in article only goes back four generations, but can do it once, though possibly confusing without the other ? Thoughts? --MTBW
    • The woman in tinfoil and the man with the ass tattoo... wouldn't they both be WP:UNDUE here, considering how many Chromies there are?
        • Demonstrative examples of particularly dedicated fans! --MTBW
    • grumbling - don't find this very encyclopedic
      • Suggest preferred phrase: "Tempest in a teapot" ? "whining" ?" "Kvetching"? "Public is bored and needed to be upset over something?" (grin) --MTBW
    • had little patience the horse's story - missing something?
        • DeFord's radio commentary positively dripped with sarcasm... he said, " the whole thing is a ridiculous reverie", want to present balance and convey the tone of the NOT-Chromies - DeFord's piece was the most striking. Suggested way to rephrase?
          • I was thinking of the fact that "with" seems to be missing between "patience" and "the horse's". — Crisco 1492 (talk) 03:31, 23 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
                  • @Crisco 1492: for little typos and other small stuff, I don't mind if you just tweak them of pop in hidden text that pinpoints a problem. Faster for both of us than telling me to. Sometimes I've stared at an article so long that I'm a little dense, as my comments to Nikkimaria's review may indicate. If you actually mess up something, I'll tweak your tweaks, but also take it as evidence that something was screwy and needed fixing Montanabw(talk) 04:36, 23 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    • As I've expressed elsewhere, I'm concerned about the length of this article. California Chrome likely has several further seasons to go through, and yet this is already longer than many biographies of humans. I'd recommend a very critical reread of the article, to see what can be pruned
    • I'll try and do the racing career tomorrow. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 10:33, 22 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • It was the last race for Alberto Delgado as the horse's jockey, but Sherman did not link the horse's performance to the jockey, stating that California Chrome was still growing and learning how to be a racehorse. - Any way to avoid "jockey ... jockey"?
    • Will tweak, stay tuned. --MTBW
  • the only other horses to win both the Santa Anita Derby and the Kentucky Derby were I'll Have Another, Sunday Silence, Winning Colors, Affirmed, and Majestic Prince. - That's a lot of horses to use "only" for
    • five in 140 years?? --MTBW
  • schooled in the saddling paddock, - Schooled?
    • PING FOR ANSWER: In that case, it means they led him around in circles to get him used to the place. "Schooled" is a term of art in horse land for training -- how can I fix this for you? --MTBW
  • Who tag added
  • Previously, Charlie Whittingham held the record when at age 76 he trained Sunday Silence to win the 1989 Kentucky Derby. - If this should be included at all, it should be as a footnote. It's not really pertinent to the narrative
    • Big news at the time, given Art Sherman's age and how famous Whittingham was in horse racing circles...could live with efn but Whittingham was a big deal. --MTBW
  • California Chrome shipped on May 12 via air to Baltimore for the 2014 Preakness Stakes, traveling on the same plane as the other two horses from the Derby to also run in the Preakness - I sense this could probably be tightened a bit (maybe "California Chrome, together with two other Derby racers, shipped on May 12 to Baltimore for the 2014 Preakness Stakes"
    • Will tweak --MTBW
  • Do you have the script to check for duplicated links? I sense you need it here.
    • PING FOR ANSWER: Don't have the script. Is there a toollabs link I can run? --MTBW
  • security - I'd call this overlinking
    • Heh, depends on the reader -- you wanted clarification of "schooled"! (smile) --MTBW
  • In search of interesting stories, the press ran a piece on the Toner stable's barn cat, Mademoiselle. - I see where you're going here, but ... seriously.
    • It was THAT BAD! The press scrutiny was pretty ridiculous. I didn't mention the stories on the groom, the exercise rider's kid, how Ride on Curlin's trainer and Sherman were chanting "1-2, 1-2" in the bar at night... really, there was restraint!  ;-) --MTBW
  • moved in and accidentally stepped on California Chrome's heel as both horses broke from the gate. - Accidentally? What does this add? One would expect sentience a prerequisite for deliberately doing something, and thus also the corollary
    • It's wasn't because he stepped on himself, which was the original theory, and it also wasn't because anyone (jockey, gate assistant, etc.) deliberately did something...nor did the other horse misbehave as far as anyone can tell, it was just a "shit happens" thing. Horses CAN do weird stuff on the track - not to screw over another horse on purpose, but they can dislike the jockey, spook at something, stand funny in the gate... --MTBW
  • luckily, - feels like editorializing
    • Clarified. --MTBW
  • Very well written, although pruning is still possible. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 09:01, 23 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Froggerlaura comments
    • The La Troinne photo was a copy vio, so had to tag for deletion at Commons. Stay away from anything from the non-existent "Gooreen collection" as most of the photos are copyrighted and taken from elsewhere on the internet. Froggerlaura ribbit 15:04, 22 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
        • OK. There is a "fair use" exception, but if these are controversial, I'll avoid those. Can you find anything "legal" on any other horses in his pedigree this side of the Darley Arabian? Swaps maybe? --MTBW

Thanks Crisco and Froggerlaura, I'll address these issues and get back to you. Montanabw(talk) 17:02, 22 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

To all: DAP Racing now live. I need to tweak it some more, anyone else is welcome to dive in over there (no GA/FA yet, DYK hook ideas welcome at talk there) but should soon be able to chop some stuff from 'Chrome. Give me about 24 hours to digest edits and let me have new eyes on the article. Montanabw(talk) 03:25, 23 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]


  • @Dr. Blofeld:, @Crisco 1492:, @Nikkimaria:, @Go Phightins!: All right everyone: It's now whacked down to 41 kB (7152 words) of readable prose size. That's down from 48K and over 8400 words. I've had enough time and distance now to see some of the things you wanted me to chop and I think I managed to agree with many of your suggestions. I also moved around a little bit of stuff to improve flow, but the substantive content should be all the same. The biggest thing I did was to put the "Behavior" subsection at the end of the background section; seemed a better lead in to his racing career. Y'all realize I created four other articles as spinoffs from this one? (Art Sherman, Nasal strips, Templeton Thompson and DAP Racing)? And, @Gerda Arendt:, I see you have supported but see if my changes raise any concerns for you; also note I linked to hoof anatomy on that "low heels" bit you wondered about. (And Crisco, I did chop the bit on the barn cat...just for you!) Montanabw(talk) 06:56, 26 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It's looking better, giving a read through now. Lead could still use a trim. I think you could remove "Both the mare and foal were required to stay in a stall for a month while she underwent medical treatment, during which California Chrome imprinted on humans owing to the extra attention he received from people as they cared for his dam. His people-focused attitude was later viewed as a useful trait in his training as a racehorse." from the lead though as it comes across as a bit trivial to read so soon in the article. Also "He is owned by Perry Martin from Yuba City, California, and Steve Coburn of Topaz Lake, Nevada, who named their partnership DAP Racing, standing for "Dumb Ass Partners"—a tongue-in-cheek response to a passerby who questioned their wisdom in purchasing Love the Chase.", I'm not sure you really need to state what it stands for in the lead, "He is owned by Perry Martin from Yuba City, California, and Steve Coburn of Topaz Lake, Nevada, who formed the partnership DAP Racing" should suffice, now you have an article explaining it.♦ Dr. Blofeld 07:15, 26 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

  • Hmm. The lead now is about 200 characters shorter than was the lead for Mucho Macho Man, which was (as you pointed out) shorter. Someone else, somewhere else, felt something on babyhood was necessary to properly summarize the article. I'll chop, but can you help me defend if others feel differently? --MTBW
    OTOH, the "Dumb Ass Partners" thing is sort of a big deal, all the 'horse of the people" thing and all that. I believe it is important enough to keep up front. --MTBW

"The Martins, from Chicago, shared an interest in horse racing.[19] They moved to California in 1987, where Perry Martin was employed as a metallurgist by the Air Force and Denise briefly job shadowed a racehorse trainer in the Sacramento area.[19] Today they own and operate Martin Testing Laboratories (MTL).[22] MTL tests items such as automobile airbags and medical equipment. Perry Martin described the items MTL tests as "the kind where somebody dies if something goes wrong".[23] He also wrote the Electronic Failure Analysis Handbook, published in 1999.[24] Denise Martin is MTL's senior chemist, managing the company's fatigue testing and thermal analytics.[18]

Steve Coburn, characterized by the media as "loquacious",[25][26] describes himself and his wife Carolyn as "just everyday people".[15][18] He grew up in central California and was familiar with horses, herded cattle at a feedlot,[11] participated in rodeos, and worked at some ranching jobs.[27] He now is a press operator for a company that makes magnetic strips.[16] Carolyn Coburn retired in March 2014 from a career working in payroll in the health care industry.[18] Carolyn introduced Steve to horse racing, and when he was looking for a tax write-off, she encouraged him to buy into a racing syndicate instead of purchasing a small airplane.[14"

This is still way more than you really need now you've got the sub article. You could certainly remove " Perry Martin described the items MTL tests as "the kind where somebody dies if something goes wrong".[23] He also wrote the Electronic Failure Analysis Handbook, published in 1999.[24] Denise Martin is MTL's senior chemist, managing the company's fatigue testing and thermal analytics.[18]" without losing anything really of value about the horse... I'd change it to "Today they own and operate Martin Testing Laboratories (MTL), which tests items such as automobile airbags and medical equipment" and remove the rest.♦ Dr. Blofeld 07:37, 26 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

  • That's doable, thought the "somebody dies" quote of his was repeated in virtually every article the profiled the owners, just saying - chopped most, reworded a wee bit to put back in some older material that was ther pre-quotation --MTBW

Support. I've been through the article, nose to tail, a few times now (and recently again) and fixed everything that struck me or put my nit-pickery in commented out notes that Montana addressed every time. I think it's a thoroughbred article, neigh, dam excellent, and having nothing left to nag about; I am happy to support.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 02:55, 28 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

  • File:Owner_DAP_back.svg: source? The front design is PD, but this is moving towards creative work. (And the garment itself appears to be a front view, not a back...). Nikkimaria (talk) 22:00, 28 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    • User:JockeyColours does these up for dozens of horse racing articles (see User_talk:JockeyColours, and s/he apparently doesn't have a template for both front and back, as traditionally they are supposed to be identical so yeah the template makes both look like the front. I do not believe that racing silks are copyrighted, though they are registered as unique to the owner. (see, e.g. Calumet Farm, Godolphin Racing, etc.) I'm looking up info on copyright of silks, the rules vary from state to state, and Europe has its own rules, but this article states (last paragraph) that silks cannot use copyrighted images, at least in New york state, which coordinates with the Jockey Club. As 'Chrome ran in the Belmont, DPA racing's silks were approved, even with the different front and back design, and thus the donkey is an "emblem" and not copyrighted. DRF is a reliable source on horse racing. The front and back are equal in terms of copyright. Note here how the silks are used almost like a national flag to identify stables. If it's a huge deal, we can chop the image, but given that we have tons of these racing silks images (looks like over 1000) used in a ton of articles, I think the copyright issue was addressed long ago, But @Froggerlaura: who is up on copyright stuff and @Tigerboy1966: who use these a lot, for further comment. Montanabw(talk) 03:15, 30 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@Nikkimaria: User:JockeyColours fixed the racing silks image so it is front/back. I thing all other issues are now addressed. Montanabw(talk) 23:34, 8 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Given precedent for use of such images in WP, I think any further discussion should be pursued post-FAC. If something did in fact have to change -- which doesn't seem terribly likely to me based on the info above -- it would appear to go beyond this article. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 01:58, 10 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Johnboddie

[edit]

Support on prose. This is beautifully written and fun to read. I looked hard for something to change and couldn't find anything. Johnboddie (talk) 18:07, 9 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Dank

[edit]

Made some changes to the lead. Skimming, it looked great. Can't argue with any of the above. - Dank (push to talk) 02:44, 11 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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