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Battle of Big Black River Bridge

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Battle of Big Black River Bridge (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

As of 19 October 2024, 14:35 (UTC), this page is active and open for discussion. An FAC coordinator will be responsible for closing the nomination.
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Nominator(s): Hog Farm Talk 19:03, 13 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

After Raymond, Grand Gulf, and Lake Providence, here comes the next article in my Vicksburg series. Loring's division of Pemberton's Confederate army had been cut off after the disastrous Battle of Champion Hill. Pemberton, not knowing that Loring had found himself unable to rejoin Pemberton, held the crossing of the Big Black River with John Bowen's elite but decimated division and John Vaughn's brigade of inexperienced conscripts of dubious loyalty. Michael Lawler's men used a dried-up river channel to draw closer to the Confederate lines, and when Lawler's men charge, they hit the part of the line held by Vaughn's conscripts. Vaughn's men don't put up much of a fight, Bowen's troops on the flanks are forced to retreat to avoid being cut off from the river crossing, and it takes about three minutes for the entire Confederate line to collapse. Over 1,700 Confederates are captured, and the Confederate lose their artillery because the horse teams needed to move the guns were left on the wrong side of the river. Pemberton falls back into the Vicksburg campaign and surrenders about a month and a half later. Hog Farm Talk 19:03, 13 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

Matarisvan

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Hi Hog Farm, my comments:

  • Why do we not have the casualties and losses in the infobox when we do have them in the lead and body? Also, are the strengths of the units before the battle known?
    • I haven't seen a good estimate of Union strength at the battle in any of the sources I have consulted for this. I don't know how relevant it is to post casualties when there's no strengths listed in the infobox for proportionality comparisons and the Confederate loss records are so incomplete. Hog Farm Talk 13:25, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Fewer than 300 Union soldiers became casualties": Sounds a little odd, consider rephrasing to "The Union army suffered less than 300 casualties"?
  • "capture" of New Orleans, Louisiana: Link "capture" to "Capture of New Orleans"?
  • Consider linking to field of fire?
  • "Osterhaus replaced by": "Osterhaus was replaced by"?
  • Might we consider adding the DOI and JSTOR ID for Smith 2024?
    It isn't yet for non-hard sciences articles but I think it should be. JSTOR IDs and DOIs allow direct access to the source if you're logged in through The Wikipedia Library. ISBNs on the other hand are relatively tougher to access. Matarisvan (talk) 15:32, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Is this book on JSTOR? I thought JSTOR was more for journal articles. I tried to bring up the Wikipedia Library JSTOR but my internet connection is not great at the moment and I couldn't get the library to load properly. My understanding is that doi's are used to point to online documents - would this be helpful for a print hardcopy book? Hog Farm Talk 01:41, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Well this is not a deal breaker at all. Adding my support. Cheers Matarisvan (talk) 09:19, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • In Smith 2013, is the first editor Stephen Woodworth or Steven Woodworth? Google Books lists the latter. Guess this is a passing error.

That is all from my end. Cheers Matarisvan (talk) 07:56, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Matarisvan: - Thanks for the review! I have one question above. Hog Farm Talk 18:56, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

UC

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A small protest on the use of men as an equivalent for troops, soldiers, forces etc -- we know that at least a small, but very much real, slice of the fighting forces were not covered by that label, before we even start to think about the ones we haven't been able to spot. Per MOS:GNL, gender-neutral language should be used when doing so does not sacrifice precision, and I think there are enough good synonyms here that the guideline should be applied. UndercoverClassicist T·C 09:48, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think I've caught all of these. Hog Farm Talk 03:52, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A few more:

  • During the retreat from Champion Hill: I struggled to get my head around the movements here -- I think I was hampered by ignorance of the directions involved. Do I understand it right that Pemberton and co were retreating westwards, that the main body of the force had crossed the BBR, and that he told a small force to wait behind so that any Union advance wouldn't cut off the opportunity for Loring's division to do likewise?
    • I've tried to clarify this a bit - Loring was cut off during the retreat from the Champion Hill field (trying to cross a creek, but not really detail for the lead of this article), and I've noted later in that Pemberton was falling back westwards when he held the BBR bridgehead. Is this better? Hog Farm Talk 03:52, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • an old meander scar: is there such thing as a new meander scar? By their very nature, they have to have a certain antiquity.
  • The collapse of this portion of the Confederate line forced the troops on either side to withdraw: possibly ambiguous, grammatically if not by common sense, as to whether we mean "the rest of the Confederate troops" or "both the Union and the Confederates".
  • On May 18, the Union army crossed the Big Black River. The surviving Confederate soldiers entered the fortifications at Vicksburg: does this include Loring's troops?
  • the Union military leadership developed the Anaconda Plan, which was a strategy to defeat the Confederate States of America.: I think we generally take as read that military planners seek to defeat their enemies: perhaps add "by blockading it" or something to clarify the anaconda-ness of this particular plan?
  • a joint army-navy: MOS:DASH wants an endash in this and similar.
  • An attempt to cut Williams's Canal: I wonder whether cut might be misread as "interdict" rather than "build"?
  • In late November, about 40,000 Union infantry commanded by Major General Ulysses S. Grant began moving south towards Vicksburg from a starting point in Tennessee.: any idea roughly how far this was?
  • and was spearheaded by Major General John A. McClernand's XIII Corps troops: troops seems superfluous, unless we mean that it wasn't all of them, in which case I think we need elements of Major General John A. McLernand's XIII Corps or similar.
  • Any reason why the Vicksburg campaign map is left aligned? MOS:ACCESSIBILITY advises right, for a consistent left margin, unless there's a good reason to vary.

More to follow. UndercoverClassicist T·C 19:36, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • the lead elements of Grant's army, McClernand's corps, crossed the river at Bruinsburg, Mississippi.: two comma-ed off phrases are a bit awkward. Suggest "McLernand's corps, which formed the lead element of Grant's army, crossed...", or else putting dashes around "McClernand's corps" instead of commas.
  • Why doesn't David Dixon Porter get a rank -- almost everyone else seems to?
  • McClernand advanced on the Union left with his corps, Sherman and the XV Corps in the center,: whose corps is this? Looks like McClernand's troops are in two places at once.
  • Pemberton decided that Johnston's orders were not compatible with previous directives that he had received from the Confederate president.: any idea what those directives were (and, incidentally, should we name that president?)
  • forgone utilizing is a tautology: simply forgone. What had Grant done instead?
  • towards Edwards: suggest the town of Edwards; it reads like a person's name here.
  • To the south lay Gin Lake, the Confederate right flank was at the lake with the line running north to the Big Black River: first comma needs to be a colon or semicolon, or a full stop. Personally, I'd favour the first.
  • I know they're comparatively junior, but should we name the commander of the 4th Mississippi Infantry Regiment, as we have for other formations deemed important enough to name-check?
    • Even Bearss' magnificent trilogy, perhaps the most detailed work ever published on this campaign, only mentions the commander of the 4th Mississippi's name at BBR in an order of battle that lists all regimental commanders in the action, so I don't think this would be due detail. I've generally been mentioning the regimental commanders' names when the sources do. Hog Farm Talk 03:50, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • as Carter L. Stevenson's division: for consistency, would give his rank.
    • Added, although it's a bit annoying as I've had to add an isolated page number from the beginning of the source to support that Stevenson was a Major General
  • the East Tennessee region, which was loyal to the Union: would rephrase was loyal to the Union, which most naturally reads as "which had not seceded" rather than "in which most people supported the Union, despite it being part of the Confederacy"
    • Is "heavily pro-Union" better? I'd had "disloyal to the Confederacy", but someone had objected to that phrasing at the A-Class review on the grounds that the Confederacy itself was disloyal. Hog Farm Talk 03:50, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes, but you might want to make absolutely that it was the population rather than the government of the region to which this applied. UndercoverClassicist T·C 08:02, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • While they were fresh their loyalty to the Confederacy was uncertain: comma needed after fresh, and I would change while to although to remove ambiguity (were they more dependable when they were exhausted?).
  • Bowen's division was the elite unit of Pemberton's army, but they were exhausted after hard fighting at Port Gibson and Champion Hill and had suffered nearly 1,000 casualties in the latter battle: I think we need a sense of how big this division was to begin with to put that number into context.
  • held the southern portion of the Confederate line and the area where the Jackson Road crossed the line: crossed it?
  • Lindsey advanced his brigade along the railroad 300 yards (270 m),: might be a BrE thing, but don't you normally give the distance before the direction: 100 miles to the north?
  • This advance was accomplished without significant casualties: might consider adjusting significant to many or similar: do we mean "few people died" or "nobody important died"? As a frequent flier around here would ask: what did they signify?
  • In the 1st Missouri Cavalry (dismounted): I would rewrite the bracketed word as a clause: "which was employed as dismounted infantry"? At the moment, it seems like (dismounted) is part of the name. If it is part of the name, shouldn't it be capitalised?
    Strange, but you're right to follow the sources. UndercoverClassicist T·C 08:03, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • 90 men and the unit's commander, Colonel Elijah Gates, were captured: my overarching point on "men" notwithstanding, here we've implied that Gates was a woman.
  • Two other Confederate steamboats, Charm and Paul Jones, who had been located downstream from the bridge were also burned: I don't think we use who for ships, even if we're going for she.
  • The 4th Mississippi, one of Vaughn's regiments, and Cockrell's brigade: could this be reworked: it's currently a bit unclear whether we're talking about two units or three.
  • not report losses: does this mean that they reported that they had suffered none, or that they made no report as to their losses?
  • Should Fred Grant be named as Frederick? We wouldn't talk about Abe Lincoln or Ike Eisenhower in a formal context.
    • I think using "Fred" is appropriate per the sources. See Ballard, pp. 316-317 Fred Grant, the general's twelve-year-old son, strayed too near the river and received a slight wound in the leg. Fred insisted he "had been killed", but he recovered quickly enough his reassured father showed little concern. Smith 2024 p. 367 Fred's enthusiasm was quickly dampened when a Confederate sharpshooter hit him in the leg. Also, I've found and corrected some pretty blatant errors in Fred/Frederick's article as a result of this. Hog Farm Talk 03:50, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Grant launched significant attacks on May 19 and 22.: another significant where I think we need to distinguish big from important.
  • Consider linking the West Point Atlas map further up as external media? It looks, to me at least, much clearer than the PD map we already have.
    • I've actually added it as a map (I moved the burned-out bridge map down to the aftermath section to make room) and have removed the EL. The map was on Commons and is I believe PD. (heads up Nikkimaria that something has been added post image review). Hog Farm Talk 04:09, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's my lot for now: mostly nit-picks, as ever, but I hope some of them are helpful. UndercoverClassicist T·C 08:41, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@UndercoverClassicist: - Thanks for a very detailed review! I've replied above; this led to me finding and correcting issues in the David Dixon Porter and Frederick Dent Grant articles. Hog Farm Talk 04:09, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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