Premature. DRN like all forms of moderated content dispute resolution at Wikipedia requires extensive talk page discussion before seeking assistance. (Click that link for a discussion of why that is.) This discussion in this case has hardly begun. If resolution cannot be obtained once this issue has been thoroughly discussed, then feel free to return here or seek some other form of dispute resolution. — TransporterMan (TALK) 14:14, 30 May 2014 (UTC)
Closed discussion
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
Article in question is for the United States Senate election in North Carolina, 2014. I won’t go into detail here as to how political parties qualify to get on the ballot in North Carolina. The bottom line is there is a Libertarian Party candidate for said race. He is not a write-in candidate. His name will appear along with the Republican and Democrat nominees. Certain users feel compelled, for reasons I do not know, to continually remove the Libertarian Party candidate from the articles Infobox as well as other sections in the article. The simple truth is when they remove said material they are removing valid, accurate and encyclopedic information. They seem to be unwilling to discuss this matter as evidenced by their lack to response to comments to this point on the articles talk page as well their own talk pages.
Offending users are user:Tiller54 and user:GageSkidmore. user:LibertyPoint seems to be on my side on this issue.
Have you tried to resolve this previously?
Reverted offending edits and placed notes in the articles talk page as well as the talk pages on the offending users. They see unwilling to talk.
How do you think we can help?
Explain to the offenders that their removal of accurate and encyclopedic information is disruptive, causes the article to be inaccurate, and is not in the spirit of Wikipedia. Ban or suspend them if they continue to offend.
Summary of dispute by Tiller54
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Summary of dispute by GageSkidmore
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Summary of dispute by LibertyPoint
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Talk:United States Senate election in North Carolina, 2014 discussion
Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Closed because "no consensus possible". Any agreement here at DRN, even if reasonably supported here would not be accepted. For example, with respect to this DRN editor The Magnificent Clean-keeper aka TMCk has said at Talk:Albert Einstein: Thus I'm (like some others) not obligated to adhere to any possible outcome. The only consensus I accept is one reached here on this talkpage. Since reading the comments there, and here, indicates a result of "no concensus", there we are. I agree that the disputatious editors should accept "non consensus". --Bejnar (talk) 21:01, 1 June 2014 (UTC)
Closed discussion
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
This dispute stems over the date format used throughout the article and the interpretation of WP:STRONGNAT. Some feel that his US citizenship denotes a Strong National tie to the United States as it is the only English speaking country he was a citizen of. While others feel that his United States citizenship isn't a strong enough tie to use MDY date format and they interpret STRONGNAT differently. My take is that there is nothing in WP:STRONGNAT that even hints about how long a person must be a citizen, furthermore he was a German citizen beforehand and Germany is not an English speaking country, so therefore it has no weight in the strength of his citizenship.
Have you tried to resolve this previously?
The discussion has hit a dead end. Simply put, its a dispute over the interpretation of WP:STRONGNAT and how strong does a national tie need to be in order to determine the date format used in the article.
How do you think we can help?
I'm just hoping that we can end this standoff and decide once and for all the date format for this article because frankly from what I can see, this is currently the only Biographical article on Wikipedia about a person who held US citizenship and was not a citizen of another English speaking country whose article is not using the standard United States MDY date format.
Summary of dispute by DVdm
Einstein spent 15 years in the US, but 60 years in non-English speaking countries, where DMY is in use. The five papers written in 1905, the theories of relativity, and the reason for his Nobel Prize, together constitute the essence—and the bulk—of Einstein's notability, and none of that happened under citizenship in MDY-space. The "strong tie[s] to a particular English-speaking country" is insufficiently strong to warrant a change from the long standing DMY date format to a new one.
Summary of dispute by Light show
Since any time period for STRONGNAT is subjective, I think other facts should be considered. For instance, a number of his contemporaries, also European immigrants who became U.S. citizens, are mentioned in the article and they all use the American format. Among those are John von Neumann, Kurt Gödel, Leó Szilárd, Edward Teller, Eugene Wigner, and even Einstein's 1st wife, Mileva Marić. Per OSE, the overarching concept remains, that of precedent and consistency throughout the Wikipedia project. --Light show (talk) 04:22, 23 May 2014 (UTC)
Per subsequent talk, it's clear that his ties to non-English countries are irrelevant to this issue. And no one is suggesting he had strong, or any, "national ties" to any English country besides the U.S. (8 weeks in the U.K. vs. 22 years, plus citizenship, in America.) --Light show (talk) 17:35, 31 May 2014 (UTC)
Therefore, the key rationale for using D-M-Y seems to rely on single fact, He did his significant work in German,, which should not be relevant for the English WP. The topic is valuable to discuss as it may affect many other articles: Marc Chagall, who had no ties to Britain, but lived in the U.S. for 7 years; or Run Run Shaw, whose only ties were to China, which uses Y-M-D for dates. With a good definition here, we might be able to update the MOS which mostly ignores biographies. --Light show (talk) 17:23, 1 June 2014 (UTC)
Summary of dispute by Dr.K.
Einstein's US citizenship which lasted 15 out of his 75 years, is a relatively short period of time. The way I interpret WP:STRONGNAT, there should be an estimation involved in determining how "strong" the national tie is. Otherwise the guideline would just state simply: "a national tie" and give citizenship explicitly as an example. But it does not, and for good reason. Because, I think, there was no intent to include unqualified "citizenship" as a strong national tie. As far as consistency and uniformity per WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS, this is exactly the crux of the matter. There can be no uniformity in the case of Einstein, precisely because his US citizenship does not constitute a strong enough tie to include him amongst the other scientists, many of whom had a considerably higher length-of-US-citizenship-period to lifetime ratio and accomplished notable things while US citizens, something that is doubtful for Einstein. I know that there may be the occasional exception to this rule amongst that group, namely Einstein's wife, but that is neither here nor there. Δρ.Κ.λόγοςπράξις07:58, 23 May 2014 (UTC)
Comment I would like to remind opposing editors to keep their arguments compliant with WP:CIVIL. I do not appreciate to read about "stonewalling" or "inventing rationales". This discussion is about interpretation of WP:MOS. Interpretations of guidelines or policy can differ amongst good-faith contributors. Comments about the behaviour of editors should definitely be avoided in any civil discussion. If this simple safeguard is not followed, then DRN will become useless, as it will defacto be converted to a PA ground, not a place of sober and good-faith discussion. For obvious reasons, I am not interested in the former. In fact, if these comments are not retracted, please consider my participation here withdrawn. Δρ.Κ.λόγοςπράξις01:54, 28 May 2014 (UTC)
Summary of dispute by John
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Summary of dispute by Ohconfucius
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Summary of dispute by Wolbo
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Summary of dispute by Stfg
I came across this issue when it was advertised at WT:MOS (here). I went to Talk:Albert Einstein in the hope of helping the discussion, and now wish to participate here. I hope that's acceptable. The article was created on 5 November 2001. The size and content of that version indicates that the creator should be regarded as the first major contributor. That version used MDY dates, and the article continued to be developed using them until this edit of 31 August 2008, when the editor who unlinked the dates simultaneously converted to DMY. It has remained like that until the present. I've outlined that background because in addition to the interpretation of WP:STRONGNAT already mentioned, WP:DATERET has been mentioned on the talk page. (So has WP:RETAIN, but that one adduces STRONGNAT as valid reason for change.) Here I'm arguing against my own general preference for DMY, because I think the case for reverting to MDY has been well made by an editor who is willing to do the work, and the case against amounts to little better than stonewalling. The repeated reference to "DMY-space" there is irrelevant, because STRONGNAT refers only to English-speaking countries. The claim that Einstein spent 15 years in the US is a falsehood: he spent his last 22 years there and made previous visits. The claim that in his time in the US he did nothing notable is refuted by the article itself (and on the talk page). Einstein also acted to cut his ties with Germany (details on the talk page). My view is that Einstein had strong ties with the US, created at his own choice, and that he had no strong ties with any other English-speaking country.
Summary of dispute by MelanieN
I just added myself to the discussants originally listed; hope that is permitted. I joined in the discussion only today, but I have been observing it all along. My reason for not joining in earlier was because I thought the correct decision was so obvious, and because the length and tone of the discussion were not such as to invite participation. Today I finally stated my opinion in favor of MDY, because I saw how entrenched and unmoving the two sides had become and no new voices were chiming in. It seems clear to me that the DMY people are inventing their own rationales rather than following the clear requirement of MOS: that if the subject has strong ties to a particular English-speaking country, the article should use the more common date format for that country. --MelanieN (talk) 18:47, 26 May 2014 (UTC)
Talk:Albert Einstein discussion
Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
Waiting for everyone else to comment. I'll give this another 72 hours or so, then continue with those who have chosen to participate. --Mdann52talk to me!14:01, 25 May 2014 (UTC)
Hi Mdann52, I just put DRN notices on the talk pages of Users: Stfg and MelanieN as the bot failed to do so. At the onset of the case, you may want to check with the participants and see if they feel a discussion, that only includes a portion of the participants listed in the case, will be useful when they go back to the talk page. If not you may want to close the case or ask me to close it. Thanks for helping out at DRN!! -- — Keithbob • Talk • 12:36, 28 May 2014 (UTC) DRN volunteer coordinator.
Stfg and I were missed by the bot because we added ourselves here later - so we already knew about this discussion, but thank you. Ten people altogether participated in the discussion at the talk page; I see eight of them listed here; I will notify the other two, and then every participant will know about this discussion. --MelanieN (talk) 13:44, 28 May 2014 (UTC)
Comment I'm not sure what else to do. This thread still needs attention. It seems like nobody wants to touch this. One person looked like he was interested, but hasn't come back yet. This may need formal mediation from the mediation commitee. JOJHutton14:10, 30 May 2014 (UTC)
The editors who are serious and not talk-page drive-bys, have taken the few minutes to explain their viewpoint on this DRN. The ratio is 4 to 2 after nine full days to change back to the original MDY format. --Light show (talk) 20:44, 31 May 2014 (UTC)
Actually, 4 to 2 is is the ratio of (1) the number of those who are prepared to endlessly repeat their arguments to (2) the number of those who are not. Some people get tired of repeating their arguments. That does not mean they change their minds. DVdm (talk) 20:51, 31 May 2014 (UTC)
And when those arguments are based on non guideline opinions, then they do not outweigh the strength of the guideline arguments. And since citizenship is a strong national tie, then that is the way we go because that's what the guideline says. JOJHutton20:58, 31 May 2014 (UTC)
In the spirit of compromise, let's simply do away with the antiquated Arabic numeral dating system and just go with Chinese date format: year-month-day. For one thing, I can't find any law or guideline that states that 4 is greater than 2; and if we started using the Chinese format earlier, we could have avoided the Y2K problem altogether. In any case, Einstein did travel to Asia, and no doubt developed some strong national ties there. Thoughts? --Light show (talk) 22:13, 31 May 2014 (UTC)
Hi, I am a DRN volunteer, opening discussion. I have not previously participated in this discussion, nor have I edited the article in question. As this is a case of A or B, compromise will not consist of finding a mutually unhappy solution, unless all dates are stricken from the article. So the question boils down to are the parties going to accept resolution? One party has noted "how entrenched and unmoving the two sides" have become. If any party feels that if they don't get their way (MDY or DMY) that they will reject this DRN, then please so state in one sentence. If there are a couple of these, then that may well be reason enough to terminate this DRN. If nobody rejects this DRN in 72 hours, then we just might get somewhere. Remember, one sentence. --Bejnar (talk) 14:37, 30 May 2014 (UTC)
And what is consensus? How do you come to the conclusion that there is no consensus? Please explain.--JOJHutton12:54, 1 June 2014 (UTC)
Question How would changing the date format improve Wikipedia? The article has been tagged as {{use dmy dates}} for a couple of years now, and I'm not aware of any complaints about the date format up to now. Are we in danger of repelling readers? Does the choice of date format distort the image of Einstein we present? Will there be a War on Date Format if we don't pick the "right" one? Paradoctor (talk) 22:43, 31 May 2014 (UTC)
Answer: The English Wikipedia is a shared Wikipedia among several English speaking countries. As such there are spelling and date format differences among the English speaking countries. To help alleviate disputes, guidelines were developed to give editors guidance on which spelling and date formats to use on these articles. So if we don't use the correct date format of the English speaking country that Einstein has a Strong Tie to, it will set a inconsistent precident for not using MDY dates for articles on US citizens. It will completely destroy the fabric of compromise that we have enjoyed for over ten years. So using MDY is a must. It's not only correct, but it's supported by the guidelines.
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Talk:Suicide of Amanda Todd#Hanged vs. found dead
– This request has been open for some time and must be reviewed.
On May 25th, I reverted an edit that removed some mention of the hanging that had been reported on by media sources. The person who had removed it had done in response to the concern [the reference desk,] where someone apparently close to Amanda Todd's family had averred that the hanging was false, having requested that the article be edited to reflect this. I have made contested (edits that were later reverted) edits, and that changed the wording back to reportedly found hanged that was changed to found dead. In the user's edit summary, OttawaAC cited a suggestion for me to cite sources that said reportedly hanged in the article. I did such, and was reverted by an account which previously had no dealing in the dispute nor any messages prior or after. As I was at three reverts, I ceased editing the page. After a heated discussion on the talk page, (and at the reference desk) there is some confusion on whether the sources that are cited on the talk page are reliable enough to indicate the word change, and as well as indicate the probable responsibility to label it on other sections as well. (IE: Cause of death as "Suicide" or "Suicide by hanging".)
Have you tried to resolve this previously?
I have discussed it thoroughly on the talk, with uninvolved users on an IRC channel, asking them for advice on what to do. I have discussed it on the reference desk contesting the idea to omit the material. I have asked the advice of another editor who had been kind to me before. That can be seen here; https://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Obiwankenobi&oldid=610426225 (Note that he's not personally involved, and I didn't want him to be, so I didn't list him.)
How do you think we can help?
Determine whether the sources that are cited for the hanging remark are reliable enough or whether there is a probable cause of WP:DUE concerns.
Determine the necessary importance of indicating the reported cause of death in other aspects. (IE: Cause of death)
If not resolved here, direct us to a more specific and direct approach.
Summary of dispute by Baseball Bugs
It's important to get it right, and the evidence for the suicide victim allegedly hanging herself is insufficient. While the victim is not a living person and hence BLP doesn't apply to her, her relatives are, and until or if we have rock-solid, widespread reporting of a specific cause of death, we shouldn't be giving artificial notability to such a claim. ←Baseball BugsWhat's up, Doc?carrots→ 00:11, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
Just a comment to mention that BLP does indeed cover the recently deceased. Per WP:BDP:
The only exception would be for people who have recently died, in which case the policy can extend for an indeterminate period beyond the date of death - six months, one year, two years at the outside. Such extensions would apply particularly to contentious or questionable material about the dead that has implications for their living relatives and friends, such as in the case of a possible suicide or a particularly gruesome crime.
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
I believe that if the article should be edited prudently and mention "hanging" as a possible cause of death, because there's been no official confirmation of the cause of death. The sources, some of which are generally reliable, are only reporting unconfirmed hearsay in the guise of factual information. They may have "verified" the hanging detail using insider sources speaking anonymously, but we don't know that, and they don't state how they may have tried to verify the information, or if they even attempted it at all. Any sentence mentioning "hanging" is going to be giving undue weight to hearsay information if it isn't well qualified by balancing that information against the known facts of the case. Another thing I don't understand is how User:Tutelary is getting away with violating WP:OWN... articles are supposed to be edited collaboratively. The consensus is leaning heavily towards editing the article to qualify the statement about "hanging", and Tutelary is effectively blocking opposing edits any and all ways possible, including maxing out reverts, using accusations of personal attacks, and appeals to bureaucracy with this DR. That's my 2 cents'.OttawaAC (talk) 23:06, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
Summary of dispute by Tarc
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
I only made a single comment in this, which I will repeat; Just write to reflect the reality of the sources, e.g. "Several sources report that the cause of death was hanging, but the police have yet to release the official cause of death to the public." Tarc (talk) 14:27, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
Comment from uninvolved DRN volunteer: While User:Tutelary is correct in observing that a number of sources report that Amanda Todd hanged herself, it is worth noting that the overwhelming majority of the most reliable sources covering the story -- The New Yorker, The Guardian, CNN -- pointedly do not cite a cause of death. MarkBernstein (talk) 20:33, 28 May 2014 (UTC)
This discussion regarding whether or not to move forward with this case from an administrative perspective has been moved to the DRN talk page
Yet another comment from a DRN volunteer - There is an active ANI report on Baseball Bugs that touches on this dispute. I feel this should be closed for the time being.--Mark Miller (talk) 00:17, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
Come to think of it, I don't think it was on ANI, it was on the Misc Ref Desk, a debate that started with a user complaining about the article saying it was hanging despite the cause of death no being released. After a while, the debate was closed on the ref desk and transferred to the more appropriate venue, i.e. the article talk page. ←Baseball BugsWhat's up, Doc?carrots→ 00:28, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
I am closing this because there is clearly an ANI discussion ongoing about Baseball Bugs, whether they are aware of it or not and it does indeed touch on this dispute, while not being actually about the dispute.--Mark Miller (talk) 00:38, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
I have reopened it because the ANI is completely irrelevant and this dispute is still in need of resolution - unlike the rather silly ANI case, this actually affects content and potentially real people. Guy (Help!) 13:45, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
Comment (not really involved in this, but have been following) - Another case of people trying to find "truth". We report on what sources say, not what is true. If there are reliable sources that claim hanging, while others leave out the exact cause of death, then say that. There is no need to choose between the two. For example, "Some media outlets reported that Amanda Todd hanged herself, while others did not specify the cause of death." We had the same issue on Jodie Foster regarding her sexuality. Remember, just because some sources did not include the cause of death does not mean it should not be included; it means they didn't include it for some reason (probably they could not independently verify it). EvergreenFir (talk) 17:37, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
MODERATOR NEEDED: Despite this case being auto-labeled as IN PROGRESS, it has no moderator. DRN volunteers please feel free to jump in and take this case. Thanks!-- — Keithbob • Talk • 20:45, 2 June 2014 (UTC) (DRN vounteer coordinator)
The parties have not yet extensively discussed the issue in the article talk page. You are welcome to pursue other avenues of dispute resolution, but further initial discussion is recommended. DonIago (talk) 17:14, 4 June 2014 (UTC)
Closed discussion
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
bender235 has added several red links to the History section of the Expert System article. MadScientistX11 (me) thinks it's more appropriate to follow the guideline in wp:write the article first My argument is first that it's debatable how notable all the red linked names are and two that there is a simple way to resolve that, try writing the articles. Also, I think red linking is no longer an appropriate technique for adding to Wikipedia. Especially in a situation like this where there are plenty of groups on computer science and IT where the names could be added to pending queues for articles Finally, IMO red links are distracting to naive users and foster the impression that wikipedia is not a serious source of quality information.
Have you tried to resolve this previously?
None. From discussion on talk page it's clear we don't agree and if we keep reverting each others edits it will be an edit war
How do you think we can help?
I can't speak for Bender235 but if a third party agrees with adding the red links I will let them stand.
Summary of dispute by bender235
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Talk:Suicide of Amanda Todd#Hanged vs. found dead
– This request has been open for some time and must be reviewed.
On May 25th, I reverted an edit that removed some mention of the hanging that had been reported on by media sources. The person who had removed it had done in response to the concern [the reference desk,] where someone apparently close to Amanda Todd's family had averred that the hanging was false, having requested that the article be edited to reflect this. I have made contested (edits that were later reverted) edits, and that changed the wording back to reportedly found hanged that was changed to found dead. In the user's edit summary, OttawaAC cited a suggestion for me to cite sources that said reportedly hanged in the article. I did such, and was reverted by an account which previously had no dealing in the dispute nor any messages prior or after. As I was at three reverts, I ceased editing the page. After a heated discussion on the talk page, (and at the reference desk) there is some confusion on whether the sources that are cited on the talk page are reliable enough to indicate the word change, and as well as indicate the probable responsibility to label it on other sections as well. (IE: Cause of death as "Suicide" or "Suicide by hanging".)
Have you tried to resolve this previously?
I have discussed it thoroughly on the talk, with uninvolved users on an IRC channel, asking them for advice on what to do. I have discussed it on the reference desk contesting the idea to omit the material. I have asked the advice of another editor who had been kind to me before. That can be seen here; https://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Obiwankenobi&oldid=610426225 (Note that he's not personally involved, and I didn't want him to be, so I didn't list him.)
How do you think we can help?
Determine whether the sources that are cited for the hanging remark are reliable enough or whether there is a probable cause of WP:DUE concerns.
Determine the necessary importance of indicating the reported cause of death in other aspects. (IE: Cause of death)
If not resolved here, direct us to a more specific and direct approach.
Summary of dispute by Baseball Bugs
It's important to get it right, and the evidence for the suicide victim allegedly hanging herself is insufficient. While the victim is not a living person and hence BLP doesn't apply to her, her relatives are, and until or if we have rock-solid, widespread reporting of a specific cause of death, we shouldn't be giving artificial notability to such a claim. ←Baseball BugsWhat's up, Doc?carrots→ 00:11, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
Just a comment to mention that BLP does indeed cover the recently deceased. Per WP:BDP:
The only exception would be for people who have recently died, in which case the policy can extend for an indeterminate period beyond the date of death - six months, one year, two years at the outside. Such extensions would apply particularly to contentious or questionable material about the dead that has implications for their living relatives and friends, such as in the case of a possible suicide or a particularly gruesome crime.
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
I believe that if the article should be edited prudently and mention "hanging" as a possible cause of death, because there's been no official confirmation of the cause of death. The sources, some of which are generally reliable, are only reporting unconfirmed hearsay in the guise of factual information. They may have "verified" the hanging detail using insider sources speaking anonymously, but we don't know that, and they don't state how they may have tried to verify the information, or if they even attempted it at all. Any sentence mentioning "hanging" is going to be giving undue weight to hearsay information if it isn't well qualified by balancing that information against the known facts of the case. Another thing I don't understand is how User:Tutelary is getting away with violating WP:OWN... articles are supposed to be edited collaboratively. The consensus is leaning heavily towards editing the article to qualify the statement about "hanging", and Tutelary is effectively blocking opposing edits any and all ways possible, including maxing out reverts, using accusations of personal attacks, and appeals to bureaucracy with this DR. That's my 2 cents'.OttawaAC (talk) 23:06, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
Summary of dispute by Tarc
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
I only made a single comment in this, which I will repeat; Just write to reflect the reality of the sources, e.g. "Several sources report that the cause of death was hanging, but the police have yet to release the official cause of death to the public." Tarc (talk) 14:27, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
Comment from uninvolved DRN volunteer: While User:Tutelary is correct in observing that a number of sources report that Amanda Todd hanged herself, it is worth noting that the overwhelming majority of the most reliable sources covering the story -- The New Yorker, The Guardian, CNN -- pointedly do not cite a cause of death. MarkBernstein (talk) 20:33, 28 May 2014 (UTC)
This discussion regarding whether or not to move forward with this case from an administrative perspective has been moved to the DRN talk page
Yet another comment from a DRN volunteer - There is an active ANI report on Baseball Bugs that touches on this dispute. I feel this should be closed for the time being.--Mark Miller (talk) 00:17, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
Come to think of it, I don't think it was on ANI, it was on the Misc Ref Desk, a debate that started with a user complaining about the article saying it was hanging despite the cause of death no being released. After a while, the debate was closed on the ref desk and transferred to the more appropriate venue, i.e. the article talk page. ←Baseball BugsWhat's up, Doc?carrots→ 00:28, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
I am closing this because there is clearly an ANI discussion ongoing about Baseball Bugs, whether they are aware of it or not and it does indeed touch on this dispute, while not being actually about the dispute.--Mark Miller (talk) 00:38, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
I have reopened it because the ANI is completely irrelevant and this dispute is still in need of resolution - unlike the rather silly ANI case, this actually affects content and potentially real people. Guy (Help!) 13:45, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
Comment (not really involved in this, but have been following) - Another case of people trying to find "truth". We report on what sources say, not what is true. If there are reliable sources that claim hanging, while others leave out the exact cause of death, then say that. There is no need to choose between the two. For example, "Some media outlets reported that Amanda Todd hanged herself, while others did not specify the cause of death." We had the same issue on Jodie Foster regarding her sexuality. Remember, just because some sources did not include the cause of death does not mean it should not be included; it means they didn't include it for some reason (probably they could not independently verify it). EvergreenFir (talk) 17:37, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
MODERATOR NEEDED: Despite this case being auto-labeled as IN PROGRESS, it has no moderator. DRN volunteers please feel free to jump in and take this case. Thanks!-- — Keithbob • Talk • 20:45, 2 June 2014 (UTC) (DRN vounteer coordinator)
I am still looking to do this DRN, thanks. I also reverted the archiving of this discussion, as it is still an active dispute. Tutelary (talk) 21:40, 4 June 2014 (UTC)
Appears to be a conduct issue on the part of the filing IP editor, especially given that they were subsequently blocked for edit warring. Editors are invited to file a new, content-focused case if/when they wish. DonIago (talk) 01:01, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
Closed discussion
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
User: AndyTheGrump has made Repeated Reverts per biased censorship (page blanking).
Discussion not possible due to closed-mindedness.
The contributions made to the article (as an expert on the subject) were sourced, cited and based on universally accepted physical interactions.
Have you tried to resolve this previously?
Discussion in Talk
How do you think we can help?
Suggest advising user:AndyTheGrump on Wiki policy, with regard to sourced, cited contributions.
Summary of dispute by AndyTheGrump
The IP has been blocked for edit warring. This is not a 'content dispute', but an IP refusing to accept Wikipedia policies. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:06, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
Talk:Plasma cosmology discussion
Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Other methods of dispute resolution, such as the edit warring board, are not functioning properly for me so I must post all conflicts, relevant or not, here. I apologize for this.
Dispute overview
Looking at the article it is clear that it is biased. This wikipedia page, which references surveys biased in their wording against the denial of global warming, shows that the public is not agreeance. As noted from this wikipedia page, and this outside source, the way the questions are asked on a survey can affect their answers.
Various groups and individuals from the science field, as well as universities, have published information which shows that the dispute against the IPCC and the NCA are valid. The list beneath, collapsed to reduce wall of text, shows adequate evidence for this:
List Collapsed to Save Space
Text from Harvard, for example, shows that the science is not settled and that there are a large amount of unknowns.
See Tar 3, Chapter 6. Radiative Forcing of Climate Change: section 6.3.4 Total Well-Mixed Greenhouse Gas Forcing Estimate of the IPCC report itself, displays results that suggest the rapid increase in temperture, from CO2 eventually tapers off naturally, possibly before it can reach 'catastrophic levels'. No Run-Away Greenhouse effect can be anticapated.
This source from Prinicipia Scientific, possibly marked as spam because of it's commercial ties, shows additional information, including the possible view points of thermodynamicists, that shows valid argument.
Note their policies before declaring this source invalid and, also, note that the IPCC, NCA, and EPA have created a closed circuit, with possible commercial and political ties of their own, and this doesn't automatically invalidate their information.
Here, from Steven Goddard, we see that the Hansen Model, which is what most Global Warming research is based upon, is under scrutiny by other scientists, some from prestigious, or even governmental, organizations.
As seen on this page, his real name is Tony Heller and he does have relevant experience. Note that his expertise on computers is relevant to climate model simulations. He also has several years of experience within the area of climate change and study.
Here we can see that there ma ybe problems with Hansen's model. Graphs originate from NASA, and, as determined by a quick Google Reverse Image Search, this wikipedia article here.
This article, which you can find sources of within the comments, further shows reinterpretation(s) in the original data.
Noted here, the NCA Rebuttal, shows that scientists are finally contesting the reports in this politically charged arena. For prosperities sake here is an archived version.
The mess of wording at the IPCC official site even admits the possibility of inaccuracy and relegates the scope of research to radiative forcing. Radiative forcing is deeply tied to human caused global warming. Essentially the report precludes against any other option in the first place.
The following links to IPCC resources themselves, here, here, here, and here, also show where the Scientific Process, as pointed out by other blogging scientists, has not been properly followed. See further details in collapse:
further details and reasoning
The first link shows the IPCC stating "Governments participate in the review process and the plenary Sessions, where main decisions about the IPCC work programme are taken and reports are accepted, adopted and approved."
The second implicates corporate bias and points out that the panel, controlled partially by non-scientist governement members, have issued a mandate. See next link for the task forces created, by virtue of this mandate, and note that those who assigned the task forces have non-scientific political ties.
The third, on working groups, shows that they have automatically assumed the participation of human activity as the main effect on global warming. No task group has been assigned to validate, or invalidate such a position, nor has research into other possibilities been funded.
Also note how funding is distributed, and by who, in the last link.
Have you tried to resolve this previously?
Besides attempting to talk and present evidence I have, erroneously in my irritation, reverted posts one too many times, and have attempted to initiate discussion through the edit history page. Only one poster was willing to seriously discuss the issue with me.
How do you think we can help?
Please discuss only article content, never user conduct
}
I am unsure. I do, however, feel as if the users here have a bias, including said administrator, in the form of the False Consensus Bias.
They continually posted rules violations, that I don't believe I have commited (besides the triple reversion), instead of engaging in conversation and, rather than being constructive, have reverted my edits continuously including I am One of Many who, I believe, had purposely baited me in my frustration so he could report me.
Summary of dispute by Stephan Schulz
Appropriate statement below
I've tried to engage the user on the talk page, but was confronted not with what I consider a reasonable discussion, but with a Gish gallop of standard canards. Once some of those had been dispelled, the user fell back to more (from Pangae to ice ages) and also added fundamental criticism about the uncertainty of science and the legitimacy of scepticism. His edits have few sources, in the discussion he points to sources he does not understand and that do not support his POV, or so-called sceptic websites ("to which also uses universities are also a resource"). It's somewhat hard to find diffs, since the user edits in a kind of shotgun style, revisiting and extending sections over and over again. But one (temporary?) result can be seen by expanding this section. I think what we see here is a combination of motivated reasoning and a lack of competence. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 14:56, 4 June 2014 (UTC)
Summary of dispute by Sailsbystars
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
While I'm involved in much of the climate change article space, I'm not involved with this particular article. My only involvement in this dispute was noting a violation of the 3-revert rule and dropping a warning on the OP's talk page after I came across the report at AIV while reporting a completely unrelated user. No comment on the content of the dispute at this time. Sailsbystars (talk) 13:46, 4 June 2014 (UTC)
Summary of dispute by I am One of Many
The content that IP 71.74.249.0 has repeatedly attempted to add to the article is WP:ORIGINAL and WP:FRINGE. In addition, the IP wants to remove from the article the following templates and categories:
{{global warming}}
{{Conspiracy theories}}
{{DEFAULTSORT:Global Warming Conspiracy Theory}}
[[Category:Global warming]]
[[Category:Conspiracy theories by subject]]
[[Category:Climate change and society]]
which is unacceptable. There is no dispute to be resolved, since the content that the IP desires to add and remove is strictly against policy. So, the dispute should be closed. I am One of Many (talk) 18:32, 4 June 2014 (UTC)
Summary of dispute by Drbogdan
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Summary of dispute by NewsAndEventsGuy
Since this venue is voluntary, I decline to participate at this venue until and unless the IP makes a respectable effort to reformat their talk page comments according to the WP:TPG and then pings me to tell me that it happened. If the IP follows thru on that, then I will revisit my decision on participation, but I reserve the right to refuse for any other reasons that seem appropriate at that time. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 13:11, 4 June 2014 (UTC)
Please discuss only article content, never user conduct
Come to think of it, the IP's report is all about editor & admin behavior and does not explicitly describe any content dispute so it should be closed out without further ado. As it says in the instructions at the top (bold in the original)
"Please refrain from discussing editorial conduct, and remember this noticeboard is for content disputes only."
I have added myself to the list of those in dispute with the person raising the dispute as I have replied to their text on the talk page.
Saying global warming may be due to a conspiracy of scientists worldwide is a conspiracy theory, it is not a rational conclusion by skeptics. Scientific opinion on climate change demonstrates pretty conclusively that global warming caused in the main part is accepted theory by most scientists. WP:WEIGHT and WP:VALID says their views not popular opinion should be accepted as mainstream on this and should form the major weight on a topic about global warming. Dmcq (talk) 14:32, 4 June 2014 (UTC)
Global warming conspiracy theory discussion
Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
Hello. I am a dispute resolution volunteer here at the Wikipedia Dispute Resolution Noticeboard. This does not imply that I have any special authority or that my opinions should carry any extra weight; it just means that I have not been previously involved in this dispute and that I have some experience helping other people to resolve their disputes. Right now I am waiting for everyone to make their statements before opening this up for discussion. in the meantime, I encourage everyone involved to review our Wikipedia:Dispute resolution and Wikipedia:Consensus pages. Thanks! There is one thing that I need everyone involved to understand right from the start; DRN is not a place to keep doing the same things that did not work on the article talk page. In particular, we only discuss article content, never user conduct. Many times, solving the content dispute also solves the user conduct issue. Do not talk about other editors. If anyone has a problem with this, let me know and we can discuss whether I should turn the case over to another dispute resolution volunteer. --Guy Macon (talk) 11:04, 4 June 2014 (UTC)
71.74.249.0 is currently on a 36 hour block and thus cannot respond here until the block ends. I am going to start a preliminary discussion with him on his user talk page during the block. Please note that I do not need any "help" from anyone involved in this dispute. The best thing any of you can do to help resolve this is to make a brief statement, keeping in mind our DRN policy of only discussing article content, never user conduct. --Guy Macon (talk) 11:13, 4 June 2014 (UTC)
This discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
I am still waiting for the block to expire before opening this up for discussion, but I would like to clear one thing up. Re: "the IP's report is all about editor & admin behavior and does not explicitly describe any content dispute so it should be closed out without further ado", my policy in such cases is not to close the case but rather to ask the user to rewrite without talking about other editors, which I have done on his talk page. The idea is to get everyone focused on sourcing. Whichever position is supported by reliable sources wins. --Guy Macon (talk) 17:32, 4 June 2014 (UTC)
"The idea is to get everyone focused on sourcing." That's step 3. Step 1 is to get the IP to decide on one specific content change they want to discuss. Step 2 is for the IP to explain that specific desired change at the article talk page. Only then do we focus on sourcing. Since the FORUMish WALLOFTEXT rambles at article talk have not done that, this report should be closed as premature. See the guide, where paragraph 1 says a good reason for closing as "inappropriate filing" is that "Parties have not discussed the issue in detail in a talk page." WALLOFTEXT forum rambles don't count. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 18:47, 4 June 2014 (UTC)
(Please note that while discussion on the content dispute has not been opened yet, discussion about how we structure DRN cases, as NewsAndEventsGuy discusses above, are allowed and encouraged.)
I looked at the talk page and, in my considered opinion, there has been extensive discussion. That DRN rule is for cases with little or no discussion, not for cases like this where there has been a lot of unproductive discussion. For me to close the case for the reasons given would require me to pass judgement, deciding that your claim that some of the discussion is [A] "a wall of text", and [B] "doesn't count" is true. That is not what DRN volunteers do. We act as neutral third parties who attempt to help you to resolve your content disputes.
I also suspect that some of the comments I am seeing may be unconscious attempts to mix in a bit of discussing 71.74.249.0's behavior along with discussing how I should manage this dispute resolution. This is actually a flaw in how we do things; we ask you not to talk about other editors, but we also say that "hey, that other editor didn't discuss this on the article talk page first" is a reason to close a case. All I can do is ask you to keep the discussion of other editors to the bare minimum needed to make your argument that this case should be closed. --Guy Macon (talk) 20:16, 4 June 2014 (UTC)
The extensive discussion test If after reading the talk page the volunteer can succinctly restate the specific article-improvement suggestion in dispute, then there's a good chance there was "extensive discussion" on the article talk page. But if after reading the article talk page the volunteer is unable to do that, then the discussion at the article talk page was either too brief or else per the TPG was deletable FORUM/OFFTOPIC/GISHGALLOP. So Guy.... what is the specific article improvement suggestion you think is at issue in that article talk page thread? If you can't articulate it, that would seem to prove the point that the required "extensive discussion" never happened, no matter how many words were plastered in the thread. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 22:16, 4 June 2014 (UTC)
Everyone else involved in this case was content to state their case and then wait for me to open the discussion (which in this case means waiting for a block to expire). You and you alone have decided to repeatedly request that I shut down the case before we have a chance to try to resolve the dispute, to challenge and even edit the DRN rules while being involved in a case, and in general to keep discussing the conduct of the IP editor who filed this case. So here is my decision: I am going to ask you to refrain from attempting to change the DRN rules until this case is closed, at which time your suggestions will be more than welcome. I do not think that you can make your case for rules changes without discussing the conduct of other editors. I am going to collapse all of your comments on this page that call another editor's comments "GishGallop" or in any other way discuss user conduct. If you choose to revert my collapsing, I will put this case on hold and take this to ANI.
Please note that you have the option of posting a request on Wikipedia talk:Dispute resolution noticeboard asking me to recuse myself and for another volunteer to take over this case. If you choose to do that I will either agree and step down or ask the other volunteers for advice and follow the consensus -- I haven't decided which I will do yet. --Guy Macon (talk) 15:37, 5 June 2014 (UTC)
In my opinion that is in unfair characterization because
(A) My comments are all procedural in nature and challenge the notion there has been the required "extensive discussion". That's procedural. The intent behind these remarks is stress the need for a step-by-step discussion instead of an everything-at-once approach, as you and I have agreed elsewhere
(B) Regarding my proposed edits to the DRN Volunteer Guide, an inadvertent omission on your part improperly casts me in a bad light. In the related discussion thread I explicitly waived reliance on the outcome to this case, saying "Disclaimer, I'm an involved party in a current case in which this (in my opinion) is a factor. But I waive any claim of reliance on the outcome of this discussion in that case because I think it is still a good idea for other cases in the future." How that all shakes out, technically, I don't really know. Maybe respondents will wish to wait until this case wraps up before chiming in. At any rate, the suggestion that I've tried to battleground my way into a rule change that favors my position in this matter is patently false. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 15:53, 5 June 2014 (UTC)
BTW, on the continuing procedural front - the "dispute overview" you reposted from the IP talk page to this case report still does not articulate a specific desired content change, so it still looks like WP:FORUM to me. There's nothing actionable there. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 15:58, 5 June 2014 (UTC)
For the record, I do not for a moment believe that NewsAndEventsGuy has misbehaved or in any way tried to game the system. He clearly wishes, in good-faith, DRN to expand the meaning of "extensive discussion" from the current interpretation used by the DRN volunteers, and maybe the interpretation should be changed (or the wording clarified). Alas, I do not I do not believe that NewsAndEventsGuy can make his case for a rules changes without discussing the conduct of other editors in this case, and I know that I cannot respond to him on the topic without doing so. Again, if what I wrote seemed to imply wrongdoing, that was not my intent. Please, let's just leave it at that, wait for the IP to come off of his block, and then let me lead us into a discussion about particular reverted changes and about which version follows reliable sources. --Guy Macon (talk) 21:49, 5 June 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for that eloquent clarification, Guy. I apologize for reading in. Sometime, in another venue, I would like to hear your description of "the current interpretation used by the DRN volunteers" of "extensive discussion". As it is not written, I wonder if ya'll are on the same page? But like I said, that's for another venue. Apologies again for the misunderstanding. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 22:06, 5 June 2014 (UTC)
(Going back to the second comment I made in this thread) There is a possibility that I may have to deal with someone in this case who either can't or won't follow DRN rules on signing, indentation, and focusing on article content. If that happens, I am going to ask the rest of you to help me by doing the following:
Do not respond. I am not on my computer watching this case 24/7, but I will bring the discussion back on track.
If you feel like it, feel free to fix the indentation or use Template:Unsigned to add a sig. Basically, do anything allowed by WP:TPOC that isn't likely to make it so that instead of dealing with a comment I will have to deal with the comment and an off-topic thread about the comment.
I am closing this because the filing editor has been infinitely blocked and refuses to comply with the conditions for being unblocked (removing all legal threats). --Guy Macon (talk) 02:10, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Talk:Hallam FM
Dispute resolved successfully. See comments for reasoning.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
An editor has removed content citing common sense. I have shown my disapproval and kindly asked them to revert the article back. They have refused. I have refrained from edit warring or the temptation to revert the article back myself.
Have you tried to resolve this previously?
I have attempted lengthy interactive conversation in the article talk section.
How do you think we can help?
Have a look at the dispute and see if you can assist both parties to come to some sort of compromise. I have suggested, as a compromise, that the list of 'past presenters' be linked to a separate page, to avoid taking up a lot of space on the main article page, as argued, and that the names of past presenters don't have to have their own article to be included in that list.
Summary of dispute by Davey2010
Basically we both disagree with past presenters, The editor wants the entire list whereas I believe having just the notable ones is easier and better, I and others have removed the non notable ones from quite alot of the radio stations, Anyway In hindsight I shouldn't of closed the discussion which I apologize for, →Davey2010→→Talk to me!→15:01, 5 June 2014 (UTC)
Talk:Hallam FM discussion
Hello. I am a dispute resolution volunteer here at the Wikipedia Dispute Resolution Noticeboard. This does not imply that I have any special authority or that my opinions should carry any extra weight; it just means that I have not been previously involved in this dispute and that I have some experience helping other people to resolve their disputes. I encourage everyone involved to review our Wikipedia:Dispute resolution and Wikipedia:Consensus pages. Thanks! Please be aware that we only discuss article content, never user conduct; please do not talk about other editors. If anyone has a problem with this, let me know and we can discuss whether I should turn the case over to another dispute resolution volunteer.
I observed that you're both discussing the situation once again at the article's Talk page. Generally when a DRN case is open the discussion should occur here. However, I'm hoping the resumption of discussion there is an indication that you both feel comfortable discussing the matter there.
I'm going to suggest a couple of options...please reply letting me know which of these best meet with your desires:
1) We can close this case. Given that presently there are only two of you discussing the situation, if you're unable to reach a resolution I might recommend the third opinion noticeboard as a faster and less intensive way of getting additional thoughts on the matter. Another option would be to ask for assistance at any of the several Wikiprojects listed at the top of the Talk:Hallam FM page.
2) We can continue discussing the matter here if one or both of you aren't confident in your ability to reach a consensus on your own or pursuing the other options I listed in my first option. If you wish to pursue the matter here I would ask that you hold off on further discussion at the article's Talk page.
I look forward to hearing from both of you regarding how you feel about the situation currently and how you'd like to proceed. Thank you very much! DonIago (talk) 15:56, 5 June 2014 (UTC)
Doniago, To be honest I think it's perhaps best we close this and continue discussing the issue, Ofcourse If no consensus is reached 30 would probably be next although I'm hoping we don't reach that point, Thanks for commenting/replying, →Davey2010→→Talk to me!→16:35, 5 June 2014 (UTC)
Doniago, Many thanks for your response and assistance in this matter. I have given this a lot of thought, but I would prefer to continue discussing here, as I really do not feel that resolution can now be reached continuing on the articles Talk page. I feel that I have attempted to explain my objections clearly without success or us coming to some kind of compromise. Thanks. Butdavid (talk) 22:24, 5 June 2014 (UTC)
Alright, we'll continue the discussion here. Please refrain from discussing this further at the article's Talk page while the DRN case is ongoing.
I'm going to summarize my understanding of your opinions on the matter. Please correct me if I've got any of this wrong, and feel free to clarify. Links to policy, existing precedents (but keep in mind WP:OTHERSTUFF), guidelines, etc. that might be applicable would be greatly appreciated.
Butdavid: Your feeling is that all past presenters for the radio station should be listed.
Davey: You believe that the list of past presenters should be limited to "notable" individuals. I'm putting notable in quotes as Wikipedia has a specific definition of notability used to establish whether a topic or individual merits a Wikipedia article; I don't want to make any assumptions as to whether that's the meaning you intended.
A preliminary question for Butdavid: Is there any degree of limitation that you would be comfortable accepting on who's listed before we go any further? If so, and if Davey is comfortable with your proposal, we might be able to head this off at the pass.
And one for Davey: Can you please elaborate on how you would define "notable" for the purposes of this dispute? I.e. how could one establish whether an individual was notable enough for inclusion?
Again, please confirm that I'm interpreting your opinions correctly, and if you'd like to clarify with links to policy or what-not substantiating your opnions, that would be great. DonIago (talk) 23:35, 5 June 2014 (UTC)
Doniago - I think the above is spot on, I would define notability as basically having an article, I would say if a person has there own article they could be added, and I suppose if they didn't have an article but had evidence to say they'd been on the station (IE news , books etc) then a cite could be added I guess, Thanks →Davey2010→→Talk to me!→23:54, 5 June 2014 (UTC)
Doniago - Any radio presenter that has worked for a radio station should be allowed to be listed, whether or not they have their own article or not. There should be no limitation. If the list became extensive and was considered to be taking up too much space on the main article page, then a link to a separate page should be added. The initial argument given by Davey in his response to my Talk post, was that past presenters who weren't "notable" were taking up too much space. Davey also initially stated in his second response to my Talk post, that it was Wikipedia who decided and that only presenters that had their own article should be included in the list of past presenters and by them having their own article that that would class them as being "notable" enough for inclusion in a list.
You cannot expect local radio presenters to be 'widely' known, especially those dating back before local radio became more accessible online. Many past or former presenters of ANY local radio station, wherever in the world, will not necessarily be widely known, especially the further you go back into history. Local radio stations are small, and even more so before internet streaming came along, when you could only listen to local radio when you were within the stations broadcasting area. I believe that most Wikipedia local radio station articles are probably accessed mainly by local listeners anyway, whether they be the stations current listener-ship or listeners of old searching for information such as past presenters. Not every band member of say a well known pop group have their own article pages, but are still included in past member lists. I have checked just a few very successful 1970's pop bands: Showaddywaddy, Wizzard and Mud, as examples of what could be deemed as "notable" band members who still do not have their own article page. These three groups, as examples, and I am sure that there are many more, show that it isn't required to have an article page to be naturally included in a 'past band member list'. These three groups, as examples, all had number one hits with Under The Moon Of Love; See My Baby Jive and Tiger Feet respectively, and they all had many more hits during their success periods. Butdavid (talk) 09:37, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
Thank you both for getting back to me. Here's the concerns I have at this point:
Currently the list of past presenters is not verifiable. Editors would be within their rights to ask where the list has originated and request sources. If there is a full list of past presenters available, that might be ideal, either as a reference or as an external link. The current lack of sourcing would be a severe hindrance to moving the list to its own article.
Assuming a full list of past presenters is available off-wiki, I think we should consider whether we need to copy that list here.
For several entries on the list, no context is provided. From WP:IINFO, "data should be put in context with explanations referenced to independent sources".
In short, it seems to me that the best way of handling this section would be to offer readers the option of viewing a full list (via external link or reference), with the section itself focusing on those presenters who are "significant" in some manner, significance being established via citations. Whether the presenter had their own article wouldn't be relevant.
This would allow for a full list to be available, albeit off-wiki, while limiting on-wiki content to those presenters who are "notable".
As a side-note, there's information on creating lists available at WP:LIST.
Well, don't thank me yet; let's wait to hear from Butdavid. I will keep the case open until we either reach a solution both of you can accept or, less hopefully, determine that we're not going to reach an acceptable direction forward here. DonIago (talk) 14:18, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
Doniago - I am happy with this, as I am now quite confident that a lot of past presenters currently without their own articles could be verifiable with sources from the internet. I also live in the city where Hallam FM broadcasts from and I have access to radio listings at the local library. Those presenters that I cannot verify with sources online, I could over time verify by taking photo's at the library and uploading them to the internet, say, on some forum such as Sheffield Forum's Radio Hallam/Hallam FM threads.
Would I just need to simply cite my source next to each presenter's name?
The current presenter list will naturally begin to grow again, as I manage to find sources for the presenters that have been removed. This will mean that the past presenter list might start to take up space again, but at least those presenters removed from the current list would then be verifiable. Butdavid (talk) 21:13, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
If the past presenters can be verified, I now can't see why it still should be a problem. After all, it is a 'past presenter list.'
I have suggested that the list could be linked to a separate page, if it was considered to be taking up too much space on the main article page, similar to what happens with large discography sections. There really shouldn't be any limitations to information that is reliably sourced. Wikipedia is supposed to be an encyclopedia of information and the more information the better, surely. "Wikipedia's purpose is to benefit readers by acting as an encyclopedia, a comprehensive written compendium that contains information on all branches of knowledge."Butdavid (talk) 22:36, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
Ah I must've missed that, I have no problem with tons and tons of content at all :), It's just a list of that size is a slight problem on here, But as you said It could become a separate article which again I have no problem with :) →Davey2010→→Talk to me!→23:09, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
So it sounds like we're pretty close to being able to close this, which is awesome. @Butdavid:: As far as sourcing goes, I'd just recommend reviewing WP:RS. You don't necessarily need to provide citations, strictly speaking, but I would recommend that approach. I don't think pictures you take would be considered reliable sources...I'd recommend reviewing the link and checking at the reliable sources noticeboard if you have more questions about that. Unfortunately forums or other sites that publish user-generated content (other wikis, IMDb, non-professional blogs) also are not considered reliable sources. Basically the source needs to have been through some sort of editorial review process. There's more to it then that, but based on some of what you said I thought it appropriate to put that in the open here.
If either of you or anyone else working on the article feels that the list is getting too long while staying up to standards, moving it to its own article would be a possibility. I'd just recommend reviewing WP:LIST before taking that step, and ideally I'd get a consensus to break it out on the article's Talk page before you do so.
If all of this works for you and you're comfortable with this discussion being closed, please confirm below. Otherwise please let me know what your remaining concerns are and we'll keep the case open for the time-being. Thank you both for your prompt responses, and civility towards and willingness to work with each other! It's been a pleasure working with you! DonIago (talk) 00:41, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
Doniago - Sounds great to me :), Thank you for your help and for your understanding, Usually I hate things like this but you've actually made it a nice and peaceful discussion :) So thank you :), Have a nice day. →Davey2010→→Talk to me!→02:06, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
Doniago - The only concern I have is with newspaper radio listings, which I would consider as very reliable sources indeed. I would have thought these would be considered very accurate and would have gone through some sort of editorial process at the time before publication. I could start my own blog and upload photo copies of radio listings from the local newspaper, if need be, from the Sheffield Star newspaper, which is the main local daily newspaper and well trusted. I believe Hallam FM/Radio Hallam is considered as an unusual radio station in radio circles and this is reflected in the lengthy list of past presenters, which you probably won't find anywhere else for a local radio station in the UK. It was a very successful station competing incredibly well with Radio One at one time. Apart from that, I am very happy with your advice and assistance in this and I would thank Davey for his contribution and hope that he will be happy with any additions to the list in the future. I will of course attempt to accurately source these additional names added before inclusion in the list. Thank you to you both. Butdavid (talk) 09:00, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Conduct matter. Disruptive editing is a conduct matter and DRN does not handle matters which are primarily conduct matters. Consider ANI or RFC/U instead. — TransporterMan (TALK) 19:12, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
Closed discussion
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
A disruptive editor keeps raising objections of a POV nature in a string, I have met him in previous edits where, like here, he shows reactive, inaccurate and unsupported responses and edits/tags I have to fix myself, no care really, and no real insight into the matter in question. He asked for 3o and got an adverse answer but that wasn´t enough, so kept making claims. (...) Really wasting my time, I had enough!
Have you tried to resolve this previously?
3rd opinion was asked by himself, tried to enlighten him on the summary paragraph of the section with a view to making it easier to understand
How do you think we can help?
Give him a warning and enlighten him on the good practices
Block him temporarily from the article if that could be done
Summary of dispute by Jotamar
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Talk:Navarre#Present-day politics discussion
Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
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Leggings
Dispute resolved successfully. See comments for reasoning.
This appears to have been resolved at the article talk page without assistance from DRN. If that is incorrect, please drop a note on the DRN talk page and a volunteer will reopen this listing. — TransporterMan (TALK) 19:17, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
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Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
The image of a man in leggings is under scrutiny of its suitability. Another user believes it to be a poor quality image, and has been removing it from other pages. I believe that as it is the only image of a man wearing modern day leggings it adds value to the page.
BMK points to a previous consensus on a different page, which I feel is not valid for this page - indeed I concured with the consensus on the Spandex page.
Have you tried to resolve this previously?
I have opened discussion on the talk page, and left a message for BMK on his talk page. I have explained my reasoning in edit summaries
How do you think we can help?
A fresh set of eyes to consider whether the image is valid for this page, without taking into account consensus on other pages, nor the interaction between the contributor of the image and BMK.
Summary of dispute by Beyond My Ken
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Nothing to resolve here. Once Chahell Reins stops editing against consensus, there will be no problem. I don't plan to particpate in what is an unnecessary request. BMK (talk) 15:47, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
Summary of dispute by Ohnoitsjamie
Agree with BMK; we have a consensus that it's a poor photo, and now that a much better photo of a man in leggings has been found, it's a moot point. OhNoitsJamieTalk15:27, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
Leggings discussion
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Belated close for pending in other forum. When this was filed there was also a request for a Third Opinion pending (which has since been answered); DRN does not accept cases pending in other dispute resolution forums. Moreover, the material in question has since been deleted as a copyright violation, other editors have joined in the discussion, and discussion has ceased on the article talk page, so this would appear to be resolved. — TransporterMan (TALK) 14:52, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
Closed discussion
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Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
The pregnancy of the Princess of Monaco was recently announced. Of course, the announcement said that the couple was extremely happy about it. All royal pregnancy announcements contain virtually the same phrases; the parents are always "delighted" or "very pleased" or "happy to announce" or they "have great pleasure to announce" the pregnancy. I am against including such entirely pointless, flowery, Victorian phrases. They have never been included before, as proven by the 11 examples of articles about recently pregnant royal women I provided. The other user simply branded them irrelevant, refusing to say what makes them irrelevant. He has given no response to any of my arguments, and decided that our discussion ended with "no consensus" because he would not discuss anymore. He keeps referring to the clearly established precedent as my "own personal subjective opinion", which is clearly nonsense.
Have you tried to resolve this previously?
I have requested a third opinion. None has been given so far.
How do you think we can help?
Please take a look at our [bizarrely unilateral] discussion. Consider the strength of arguments (or the lack thereof). Finally, remove the flowery sentence.
Summary of dispute by Blitzall
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Talk:Charlene, Princess of Monaco#Statement discussion
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Pending in another forum/process. DRN, like all other dispute resolution processes at Wikipedia does not accept cases pending in another dispute resolution or DR-like forum or process such as RFC (see the instructions at the top of this page). RFC's ordinarily run for 30 days; if the RFC does not resolve the matter once it is closed or expires, then you can then consider other dispute resolution processes. — TransporterMan (TALK) 13:47, 13 June 2014 (UTC)
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Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
Im having a discussion with Maunus about the adition of this material [2], shortly, the contested claim states (in the page 196 of the study) that since in Mexico ethnic classifications have a cultural base rather than a biological one, it is possible for white people (understood as european people that don't have ancestors of other race) to be considered mestizos if they identify with metizo culture, this statement is analogous to claims already included in the article regarding how, for example an Amerindian person can become mestizo if it accepts the mestizo culture and a white/mestizo person can become amerindian at the eyes of the government if it accepts amerindian culture, Maunus has no problem with these claims despite being the same principle. Through the discussion Maunus have opposed it using and changing claims, like that it is unproffesional, not notorious and that is fringe because no one cites it as reference. In turn I have defended it proving that the source it´s an academic peer reviewed work, it is featured in the "Latin American, Caribean, Spanish and Portuguese Scientific Publications Network and Scientific Information System" [3] and it has been cited by other scientific researchs [4]. However when Maunus ran out of arguments he started deleting the discussions from his talk page and became agressive [5], [6], [7], He is also reverting edits even though he have refused to discuss [8]
Have you tried to resolve this previously?
I've tried to discuss this on his talk page, but he removes any trace of the dicussions: [9], [10], [11], There is an RfC on the issue, but no third editor have shown. Only other editor involved in a previous discussion three days ago.
How do you think we can help?
By revising the issue in detail and giving third opinions on it (the more the better), maybe making Maunus recapacite about his obtuse posture and attitude in the last days.
Summary of dispute by Maunus
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Summary of dispute by Tarlneustaedter
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I think the existing talk pages cover the dispute. This seems to be a continuation of the previous argument (and edit war) I had with Aergas, which was eventually resolved by asking for an impartial third opinion. This is pushing the same buttons, which sounds like an agenda-driven view of ethnic designations in Mexico. The changes (IMHO) don't improve the article. Personal animosity has also become a factor. Tarl.Neustaedter (talk) 22:46, 12 June 2014 (UTC)
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Talk:Suicide of Amanda Todd#Hanged vs. found dead
Not all participants are active, DRN cannot help if participants are [not] active. Please discuss on the article talk page to establish a consensusHasteur (talk) 12:12, 15 June 2014 (UTC)
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On May 25th, I reverted an edit that removed some mention of the hanging that had been reported on by media sources. The person who had removed it had done in response to the concern [the reference desk,] where someone apparently close to Amanda Todd's family had averred that the hanging was false, having requested that the article be edited to reflect this. I have made contested (edits that were later reverted) edits, and that changed the wording back to reportedly found hanged that was changed to found dead. In the user's edit summary, OttawaAC cited a suggestion for me to cite sources that said reportedly hanged in the article. I did such, and was reverted by an account which previously had no dealing in the dispute nor any messages prior or after. As I was at three reverts, I ceased editing the page. After a heated discussion on the talk page, (and at the reference desk) there is some confusion on whether the sources that are cited on the talk page are reliable enough to indicate the word change, and as well as indicate the probable responsibility to label it on other sections as well. (IE: Cause of death as "Suicide" or "Suicide by hanging".)
Have you tried to resolve this previously?
I have discussed it thoroughly on the talk, with uninvolved users on an IRC channel, asking them for advice on what to do. I have discussed it on the reference desk contesting the idea to omit the material. I have asked the advice of another editor who had been kind to me before. That can be seen here; https://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Obiwankenobi&oldid=610426225 (Note that he's not personally involved, and I didn't want him to be, so I didn't list him.)
How do you think we can help?
Determine whether the sources that are cited for the hanging remark are reliable enough or whether there is a probable cause of WP:DUE concerns.
Determine the necessary importance of indicating the reported cause of death in other aspects. (IE: Cause of death)
If not resolved here, direct us to a more specific and direct approach.
Summary of dispute by Baseball Bugs
It's important to get it right, and the evidence for the suicide victim allegedly hanging herself is insufficient. While the victim is not a living person and hence BLP doesn't apply to her, her relatives are, and until or if we have rock-solid, widespread reporting of a specific cause of death, we shouldn't be giving artificial notability to such a claim. ←Baseball BugsWhat's up, Doc?carrots→ 00:11, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
Just a comment to mention that BLP does indeed cover the recently deceased. Per WP:BDP:
The only exception would be for people who have recently died, in which case the policy can extend for an indeterminate period beyond the date of death - six months, one year, two years at the outside. Such extensions would apply particularly to contentious or questionable material about the dead that has implications for their living relatives and friends, such as in the case of a possible suicide or a particularly gruesome crime.
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
I believe that if the article should be edited prudently and mention "hanging" as a possible cause of death, because there's been no official confirmation of the cause of death. The sources, some of which are generally reliable, are only reporting unconfirmed hearsay in the guise of factual information. They may have "verified" the hanging detail using insider sources speaking anonymously, but we don't know that, and they don't state how they may have tried to verify the information, or if they even attempted it at all. Any sentence mentioning "hanging" is going to be giving undue weight to hearsay information if it isn't well qualified by balancing that information against the known facts of the case. Another thing I don't understand is how User:Tutelary is getting away with violating WP:OWN... articles are supposed to be edited collaboratively. The consensus is leaning heavily towards editing the article to qualify the statement about "hanging", and Tutelary is effectively blocking opposing edits any and all ways possible, including maxing out reverts, using accusations of personal attacks, and appeals to bureaucracy with this DR. That's my 2 cents'.OttawaAC (talk) 23:06, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
Summary of dispute by Tarc
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
I only made a single comment in this, which I will repeat; Just write to reflect the reality of the sources, e.g. "Several sources report that the cause of death was hanging, but the police have yet to release the official cause of death to the public." Tarc (talk) 14:27, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
Comment from uninvolved DRN volunteer: While User:Tutelary is correct in observing that a number of sources report that Amanda Todd hanged herself, it is worth noting that the overwhelming majority of the most reliable sources covering the story -- The New Yorker, The Guardian, CNN -- pointedly do not cite a cause of death. MarkBernstein (talk) 20:33, 28 May 2014 (UTC)
This discussion regarding whether or not to move forward with this case from an administrative perspective has been moved to the DRN talk page
Yet another comment from a DRN volunteer - There is an active ANI report on Baseball Bugs that touches on this dispute. I feel this should be closed for the time being.--Mark Miller (talk) 00:17, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
Come to think of it, I don't think it was on ANI, it was on the Misc Ref Desk, a debate that started with a user complaining about the article saying it was hanging despite the cause of death no being released. After a while, the debate was closed on the ref desk and transferred to the more appropriate venue, i.e. the article talk page. ←Baseball BugsWhat's up, Doc?carrots→ 00:28, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
I am closing this because there is clearly an ANI discussion ongoing about Baseball Bugs, whether they are aware of it or not and it does indeed touch on this dispute, while not being actually about the dispute.--Mark Miller (talk) 00:38, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
I have reopened it because the ANI is completely irrelevant and this dispute is still in need of resolution - unlike the rather silly ANI case, this actually affects content and potentially real people. Guy (Help!) 13:45, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
Comment (not really involved in this, but have been following) - Another case of people trying to find "truth". We report on what sources say, not what is true. If there are reliable sources that claim hanging, while others leave out the exact cause of death, then say that. There is no need to choose between the two. For example, "Some media outlets reported that Amanda Todd hanged herself, while others did not specify the cause of death." We had the same issue on Jodie Foster regarding her sexuality. Remember, just because some sources did not include the cause of death does not mean it should not be included; it means they didn't include it for some reason (probably they could not independently verify it). EvergreenFir (talk) 17:37, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
MODERATOR NEEDED: Despite this case being auto-labeled as IN PROGRESS, it has no moderator. DRN volunteers please feel free to jump in and take this case. Thanks!-- — Keithbob • Talk • 20:45, 2 June 2014 (UTC) (DRN vounteer coordinator)
I am still looking to do this DRN, thanks. I also reverted the archiving of this discussion, as it is still an active dispute. Tutelary (talk) 21:40, 4 June 2014 (UTC)
Archived again Unless there is an official declination response, please could this move forward? It has not in any regard. Tutelary (talk) 16:05, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
Hi all, I'm the specialist that gets called in when DRN threads have gone on for far too long. I do not think I've interacted substantially with the subject area nor do I think I've interacted substantially with any of the disputants to the case. Before we go any further, do all disputants accept my credentials as being neutral and uninvolved in this dispute? Hasteur (talk) 12:35, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
Not much has changed since the last time, just say that while some sources report the specific cause of death, it has not been released officially. This shouldn't be this big of a deal. Tarc (talk) 13:51, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
OttawaAC Are you still engaged with this DRN? Dispute Resolution doesn't work unless all disputants are engaged in finding a solution. If you don't respond soon (48 hours) this request might have to be closed with no resolution. Hasteur (talk) 15:42, 12 June 2014 (UTC)
From what I can see all participants have been recently notified that there is now a moderator for this discussion and the case is in progress. Therefore I agree with Hasteur, it's time to either discuss the issue or move on. -- — Keithbob • Talk • 12:44, 14 June 2014 (UTC)
Ok, it's been 48 hours since OttawaAC was specifically requested to provide feedback. No feedback has been forthcoming, Emails to OttawaAC have gone unanswered. I'm going to close this in 6 hours as "Not all participants are active, DRN cannot help if participants are active. Please discuss on the article talk page to establish a consensus" (Failed) at that time. Compelling arguments for why we should push forward when OttawaAC was a significant disputant may be presented, and will be considered prior to closing. Hasteur (talk) 18:38, 14 June 2014 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Talk:Solar Roadways
– Closed as failed. See comments for reasoning.
Filed by Wholesomegood on 21:37, 11 June 2014 (UTC).
See "Proposal to close" discussion at bottom of collapsed section, below. — TransporterMan (TALK) 20:22, 17 June 2014 (UTC) T-man, thanks for closing this case. I've marked it as 'failed' since discussion did commence but was then sabotaged by a lack of civility with little consideration for productive discussion of specific content and WP guidelines.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 23:16, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
Closed discussion
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
I have spent a lot of time referencing the "cost" section of Solar Roadways, including articles from The Washington Post and CNN.[12] Sbmeirow and Dream Focus continue to delete this section repeatedly, only leaving information which is positive about the organization. They provide absolutely no sources outside of the company for their position. Why do I have to babysit my sourced contributions?
Have you tried to resolve this previously?
I have discussed it thoroughly on the talk. There are four sections devoted to this issue.
How do you think we can help?
Determine whether the sources that are cited are reliable enough.
If not resolved here, direct us to a more specific and direct approach.
User:Wholesomegood is ignoring statements and lack of proof from the official "Solar Roadways" website to further his agenda. At http://solarroadways.com/clearingthefreakinair.shtml it says "Years ago, when we were working on our very first prototype, we estimated that if we could make our 12' x 12' panels for under $10K, then we could break even with asphalt. That was mere speculation and had no relevance to the cost of even our first prototype, let alone our second." Since this is an official statement, then it trumps the mistakes in other articles. All "area" statements based on 12x12 and "cost" based upon $10K should be removed from this article. Currently the official website doesn't state an official price, nor an official size, nor an official power output, nor any other official technical specifications. • Sbmeirow • Talk • 23:32, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
All statements about the number of miles or square feet of roads in the USA is irrelevant, including the cost to cover the same roads, because it falls under speculation and WP:Crystal Ball. --- Would it be ok to compute the cost to cover every desert on earth? How about about the cost to cover every square foot of the earth? --- Lets look at this differently: would it be ok to put something similar in an Apple iPhone 6 article, like: "There are 64 Million iPhone users and since we estimate the cost of each iPhone 6 to be $300, then it will cost $19.2 Billion to replace all of those phones. If every person on earth bought an iPhone 6, then it would cost $2.1 Trillion." --- Seriously, all of these types of "crystal ball" costs should not be included in any product article! • Sbmeirow • Talk • 03:42, 12 June 2014 (UTC)
Summary of dispute by Green_Cardamom
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
The contested material is one of at least 8 "false claims" floating around the Internet about this company, as described here at the official company website. Wikipedia is not Snopes.com and if we have a lengthy section on this 1 false claim, the other 7 will follow. It's unbalanced. Just because there is bad information floating around the internet doesn't mean we need to echo it, turning the article into a battle zone and an extension of the disputes raging elsewhere on the net. At best these 8 false claims can be referenced as a group, using a sentence or two. -- GreenC17:03, 12 June 2014 (UTC)
As a matter of procedure I don't know why we are having a DRN. No attempt was made at an RfC. If recommended by DRN I have no problem with an RFC as the next step. -- GreenC17:20, 12 June 2014 (UTC)
Talk:Solar Roadways discussion
Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
This case is now open for moderated discussion. I've placed a note on Green Cardamom's talk page about this DRN (as has another editor) so they may join in the discussion if they wish. I thank all participants for taking the time to engage in this dispute resolution process. The purpose of this forum is for the discussion of content only. We will not be discussing editor behavior and I ask participants to stick to the content issues and refrain from personalizing their comments.
We are going to go step by step. Wholesomegood, please provide here in this thread the precise content and corresponding sources that are being disputed.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 14:07, 12 June 2014 (UTC)
I've placed a note on Wholesomegood's talk page inviting him/her to participate.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 13:34, 14 June 2014 (UTC) DRN volunteer coordinator
Thank you keithbob:
In 2010, Solar Roadways reported that it was aiming for each road 12 feet by 12 feet panel to cost around $10,000 and each mile would cost $4.4 million. At 2010 retail electricity prices the road would pay for itself in about 20 years.[road 1][road 2]
In the FAQ section of Solar Roadways, Brusaw states: "I heard that you said it's going to cost $60 trillion dollars to outfit the U.S. road with Solar Roadways. Is that true?...No, it's absolutely not true. We are still in R & D, and we haven't even calculated the cost for our prototype. That will come next month [July, 2014] as we get our final report ready for our Phase II contract with the Federal Highway Administration. And even if we had those numbers available now they would have no relevance to the cost of our actual product...right now, not even we have that information, so if you read an article where a journalist claims to have any data on costs, you can be assured that they have not done their homework and are quoting another unreliable source or they are making up numbers."[road 3] Solar Roadways estimates there are 31,250.86 square miles of roads, parking lots, driveways, playgrounds, bike paths, sidewalks, etc.[road 4]
The media's total estimated costs for solar roadways to cover all United States roads varies widely. The Washington Post estimated there are roughly 29,000 square miles (800 billion square feet) of United States road surface to cover. Which means the United States will need roughly 5.6 billion panels to cover that area with a price tag of $56 trillion.[road 1][road 5][relevant? – discuss]The Economist reports that the installation costs of building such roadways and parking lots are expected to be 50 to 300 percent more expensive than regular roads. To cover all United States roads would cost at least $1 trillion.[1][relevant? – discuss] Alternatively, The American Thinker states that in 2009, the United States had a total public road length of 4,050,717 miles. Which means an estimated solar road infrastructure cost of $18 trillion, or about 125% of the United States' current annual gross domestic product.[2][relevant? – discuss]
I haven't been party to this at the article talk page, and am just butting in to opine that seems silly to report on corporate R&D and marketing goals for new products. If speculation about what the cost will ultimately turn out to be is material for our article, then anytime the financial press picks up a tease out of an investment prospectus it becomes fodder for our articles. Seems inappro to me. Now I'll go back to lurking at the DRN noticeboard. Keith, if my comment here should be refactored or moved, please do. I'm new to this venue. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 10:45, 15 June 2014 (UTC)
In the big picture, what is so frustrating to me is editors are not following WP:NPOV:
As a general rule, do not remove sourced information from the encyclopedia solely on the grounds that it seems biased. Instead, try to rewrite the passage or section to achieve a more neutral tone. Biased information can usually be balanced with material cited to other sources to produce a more neutral perspective, so such problems should be fixed when possible through the normal editing process. Remove material only where you have a good reason to believe it misinforms or misleads readers in ways that cannot be addressed by rewriting the passage.
For three reasons. First, they didn't say at the time what you say they say (since they were not discussing actual costs but the implcations of a R&D research goal related to a non-existent product). Two, they were all tied to company statements now disavowed by the company. And three, of your sources you've got two blogs, a CNN story with the most cursory sop to the corps main website which today is denying they have info on costs, and finally AmericanThinker, which does not make its terms and conditions readily available (where I looked anyway) so we don't know if they have editorial control and so can't just assume its RS. And there's no need to figure that out either, since all the 2010 stuff is fanciful projections of what it would mean if - and only if - someday on a far flung planet after the year 34,300AD, the corp finally actually achieves that R&D goal. If that all happens, then and only then we will have good RSs that definitively report on "cost". But we ain't there yet. All we have are antique R&D goals and a lot of beer and pretzel shit-shooting about the implcations of those goals, if achieved. Wholesome, you're quite right that eds should not POVishly keep accurately represented stuff out. But your cites are blogs and/or questionable, and besides that are reporting on projections of antiquated defunct R&D goals, not "costs" for a tangible product. We can debate this in any venue you like, I'll keep saying the same thing. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 19:57, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
So in your opinion reliable sources are not reliable. That is your opinion. Do you have any references sources to back up this opinion?
Biased information can usually be balanced with material cited to other sources to produce a more neutral perspective, so such problems should be fixed when possible through the normal editing process.
In 2010, Solar Roadways reported that it was aiming for each road 12 feet by 12 feet panel to cost around $10,000 and each mile would cost $4.4 million. [13][14]
It's (1) an R&D goal that (2) they are not keeping close to the vest but rather are advertising/promoting..... if they had a product on the market for that price that would be one thing, but such statements stray into WP:PROMO territory. In addition, a 4 year old R&D goal used by the marketing wing 4 years ago doesn't exactly have a lot of WP:WEIGHT. The better question is what do these things cost today, if they're even available? NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 21:13, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
As I stated above, on their official website, http://solarroadways.com/clearingthefreakinair.shtml it says "Years ago, when we were working on our very first prototype, we estimated that if we could make our 12' x 12' panels for under $10K, then we could break even with asphalt. That was mere speculation and had no relevance to the cost of even our first prototype, let alone our second." First, they say "no relevance", and secondly all of their 2014 photos and videos show smaller hexagon panels instead of larger square panels. It is fine by me to use the 12x12 and $10k prices of the prototype panel for historical information, but NOT for any road cost estimates because the prototype panels were never officially priced nor sold to any customers. • Sbmeirow • Talk • 02:08, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
***REBOOT***
In an attempt to get this conversation restarted, lets start here. Below this editors started to name other editors personally (later myself included)
I agree that Solar Promo's original claims is a WP:PROMO, the only reason this is pertinent to the discussion is reputable third party sources in this case picked up these figures and built estimates around these figures. Reputable third party sources determined that these sources were valid.
How much would the solar highway cost? Brusaw calculates an estimated cost -- in great detail -- on his website. Short answer: each mile would cost $4.4 million.
"a 4 year old R&D goal used by the marketing wing 4 years ago doesn't exactly have a lot of WP:WEIGHT"
What part of weight are you referring too?
"The better question is what do these things cost today"
"We are still in R & D, and we haven't even calculated the cost for our prototype. That will come next month as we get our final report ready for our Phase II contract with the Federal Highway Administration. And even if we had those numbers available now they would have no relevance to the cost of our actual product."
User:Sbmeirow comments:
"It is fine by me to use the 12x12 and $10k prices of the prototype panel for historical information, but NOT for any road cost estimates because the prototype panels were never officially priced nor sold to any customers."
You're misrepresenting what they are saying. They are not saying they want to pave over the US roadways, only that there is a large resource available to work with. -- GreenC19:29, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
"There’s 25,000 square miles of road surfaces, parking lots, and driveways in the lower 48 states. If we cover that with solar panels with just a 15% efficiency, we produce 3 times more electricity than this country uses on an annual basis and it’s almost enough to power the entire world."
"it has been estimated if all the roads in America were converted to solar roadways the country would generate three times as much energy as it currently uses. think about that an abundance of clean energy"
That is your opinion, one that I disagree with, and really a seeming attempt to disqualify and exclude a fairly significant discussion. My comment was directly relevant to the issue and a proposal for a solution to the stand off. I would request you remove your comment/label and allow a moderator to make that decision. Mkdwtalk20:06, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
It's undeniable that cost has been a major criticism and plenty of numbers have been thrown around. Regardless of what these estimates are based upon, they're being used as criticisms and if anything could be included in the criticisms section. User:Dream Focus seems to think there is a consensus to entirely exclude any mention of price ANYWHERE in the article which was not even remotely close to what I surmised from the talk page discussion. Honestly, I think including the information in the criticism section, a place easily citable with current references, and a place that is not subject to the same scientific and fact accuracy as other sections since they are merely the opinions of critics would be appropriate. As more cost information becomes available those estimates can either be verified as realistic or left as early criticisms. Mkdwtalk03:24, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
If you bother reading what others have stated, consensus is not to use some random calculation done on the prototype price for an older model four years ago. Their new system has been much improved, and we don't know what the cost will be when mass produced. So the information is misleading, slanderous, and undue weight. DreamFocus03:25, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
I did read them and this proposal for information to be included in the reception section was not discussed, ever. I'd rather you not assume bad faith on some "random" assumption that I hadn't read the discussion when I specifically had said I had in my talk page proposal. I'm generally willing to overlook that. Regardless of their new system, or where the numbers come from, criticisms for technology are suitable for any article and IF the criticisms centre around price, then there's no reason to exclude criticisms and their details by reputable critics. It's that simple. You've been talking about real factual costs which I agree should not be purported as facts in the above sections as they're not based on anything tangible. Mkdwtalk03:30, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
It does not matter what section the information is in, the reasons against having it are valid in any section. It is still misleading to people to see such ridiculous and unreliable numbers. DreamFocus03:32, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
Well unfortunately for you these "misleading numbers" from places like the Washington Post are not for you to decide which ridiculous facts people should read. The truth of the matter is that these are real criticisms from leading tech writers who write for reliable publications. You cannot exclude them on grounds because you disagree with them. This is exactly why we have a criticism section and attribution to who has said what. Furthermore, the attention to the price has been the leading topic of criticism for the entire project so to outright exclude them is really a detriment to reliable coverage of the topic. I can't imagine nothing be said about this criticism when it's by far the most reported on thing second to the public funding. It needs due weight and one sentence with a laundry list of criticism topics with no details seems inappropriate. Mkdwtalk03:38, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
They are not "leading tech writers". The Washington Post article you reference is in its BLOG section, and simply mentions the "hypothetical figures" some guy at Vox said. [15]DreamFocus03:42, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
I did a quick WP:BEFORE search and I can tell you the focus point on the cost has been cited heavily across a large portion of media and not some random blogger. Additionally, news sources use blogs as their editorial format like the "editorial" section in print material. For the New York Times these are considered some of the most important contributions to the publication. Lastly, it's not up to you or I to filter out which criticisms should be read and which should be not based upon whether we agree with them or not if they're being reported from a wide angle and from reliable sources. Wikipedia is not censored. Mkdwtalk03:44, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
I trust you intended to add that wording change but I was fairly quick to reply. Regardless, please do not change the wording if a reply has been made. Mkdwtalk03:48, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
I'm going to have to recuse myself from this discussion. If Dream Focus is willing to change his comments after people have already replied, an extremely dubious practice in discussions, and when this is brought to his attention, still insists on making the change, then I cannot have a reasonable discussion with them. I reverted the change because I wasn't sure if you were aware I had posted, but now that you're aware, and still insist on making the change... Really not appropriate in my opinion. I encourage the moderator of this discussion to thoroughly check the history for any subsequent alterations to the visible content. I've said my point of view and leave it to the rest of the discussion. In any regard, I've given my proposal and the other editors may do with what they will. Happy editing. Mkdwtalk04:00, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
I added a quote from the Washington Post article calling it "hypothetical figures". When I went to post, I got an edit conflict, you just replying, so posted it afterwards. The edit history says both edits were made at 03:45. DreamFocus04:05, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
Three cheers Dream. I don't care how Solar Roadways looks in the end.
My number one concern is the article is not deleted. We accomplished that. *Yay*
Now my only concern is that reputable relevant sources should remain in the article. I don't care how anyone dresses these sources up. If you want to add "hypothetical figures" to every single reference, please do. Find a million articles that refute any guesstimates (which they are), I warmly welcome this.
(edit conflict. You deleted your previous post [16] before I could reply to it, but whatever, this still is relevant to the conversation.) So someone posts on their blog in the Washington Post about the "hypothetical figures" this Vox guy came up with, and that means we should put it in the article? The vast majority of sources covering this don't mention these ridiculous "hypothetical figures" one guy did based on outdated and inaccurate information. So why should we? Check out the massive amounts of coverage they get [17] from legitimate media sources. Wired magazine, Popular Science, and other tech magazines known for actually looking into things properly, and not just making up random numbers to get attention for an article, are what matters here. DreamFocus05:51, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
Should we include the Washington Post article? Yes. Because its the Washington Post. The Washington Post, a very well respected newspaper, decided it was relevant. Three anonymous editors don't.
Reputable and highly respectable media sources determined that this information was worthy of publishing. On the other side, you have three editors second guessing real journalists and real media.
"As a general rule, do not remove sourced information from the encyclopedia solely on the grounds that it seems biased. Instead, try to rewrite the passage or section to achieve a more neutral tone. Biased information can usually be balanced with material cited to other sources to produce a more neutral perspective, so such problems should be fixed when possible through the normal editing process. Remove material only where you have a good reason to believe it misinforms or misleads readers in ways that cannot be addressed by rewriting the passage."
If you don't like what the reputable media says, don't delete the figures, find your own reputable source to back up your POV. That is the way mediocre articles become great articles. No one here is arguing the validity and the reputation of these sources. No one. Why do I have to babysit an extremely well sourced section of an article?
How about dropping the patronizing attitude ("babysit"). And yes, this material misinforms and misleads readers. -- GreenC07:17, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
In the way you use the word "Babysit", it implies that you "own" the text, which you don't. We are arguing this subject because you are ignoring the decision of the majority. On Wikipedia, if people wants to change something, then majority rule determines the direction. Instead of wasting time arguing this mess, we should've put it up for a vote, as they do on lots of talk pages. • Sbmeirow • Talk • 12:51, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
You said "Reputable and highly respectable media sources determined that this information was worthy of publishing. On the other side, you have three editors second guessing real journalists and real media." Reply1 = Correct, journalists determine what is worthy of publishing in THEIR newspaper, but Wikipedia is not THEIR publication and we have the right to question it! Reply2 = I have the right to question anything and everything, and you can't take that right away from me! I have a college degree and decades of engineering experience and wisdom, which is likely far more than a vast majority of newspaper and tv journalists! Reply 3 = At least I use my real name and bio, instead of hiding behind an anonymous account name. Reply 4 = People prove media wrong all the time, for example The Daily Show pokes holes in the lies of Fox News almost every day of the week. • Sbmeirow • Talk • 13:12, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
So provide the fox news and the daily show media opinions, don't delete one side because you personally don't agree with it. Find a source that matches your opinion, get your opinion published, or your opinion should not be in the encyclopedia. The sad fact is, your real world experience means nothing to wikipedia if you can't back up your published sources. Wholesomegood (talk) 15:51, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
References
^Cite error: The named reference econ was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
^Cite error: The named reference thinker was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
Unproductive ultimatum and personal attack
NOTE I object to the format of this DRN and request an immediate RfC to resolve this dispute. If no RfC is created I will be creating one regardless of this DRN, which is being poorly mismanaged and leading nowhere. Meanwhile Wholesomegood has created his own defacto !vote here which is way outside normal consensus building processes. He is listing people's !votes on this issue without input or acceptance. -- GreenC15:41, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
To the extent we're talking about the part referring to Wholesomegood, that was an appropriate complaint of user conduct posted in the wrong venue. Such statements are not personal attacks, they're just not posted at the right place (one example). On the other hand, I agree there's a bit of inappropriate DRN volunteer bashing here. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 16:49, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
Proposal to close
The purpose of DRN is to slow down and have a focused and civil discussion in a moderated setting. However since:
Many participants seem incapable of making comments without personalizing them in a way that borders on a personal attack
Many participants appear to be unable to limit their comments to the specific two sentences and two sources under examination in this sub thread
There are several additional sentences that have yet to be considered
I concur. I think that this listing is gutshot and has consumed too many volunteers already to have any real possibility of going anywhere. I had earlier today given serious consideration to at least demanding everyone be civil and stop talking about one another with a threat of closure if they failed to do so. Green Cardamom has said, in a couple of places, that s/he intends to file an RFC and that would cause the closure of this case in any event under the multiple-forum rule. This is futile. Best regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 17:23, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
I've never been to WP:mediation and have no basis for comment; as for sending to ANI, I don't really know how this venue works but feel strongly that the way it should work is for specific individuals to be warned about an ANI referal, and then limiting such a referal if later necessary to those individuals. Just upending a whole pot of gumbo on the floor over at ANI (i.e., a general referal) would seem likely to just make a bigger mess, at least to me. I'm ok staying here; I'm ok with being sent back to article talk. Mediation might be interesting but that's just selfish talking; not sure its in best interest of article improvement and trust your judgment. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 17:29, 17 June 2014 (UTC)[[User:NewsAndEventsGuy
Can I comment here? If not you can remove my post User:Keithbob or User:NewsAndEventsGuy From what I have seen of WP:ANI, I agree with User:NewsAndEventsGuy, "Just upending a whole pot of gumbo on the floor over at ANI (i.e., a general referal) would seem likely to just make a bigger mess" another forum of WP:MEDIATION might work? Wikipedia:Third opinion seems best? RfC appear to be even more confrontational.
In an attempt to reboot in the above section, I collapsed the section which started to talk about individual editors.
I would prefer you not unilaterally make this decision to close and hide a section of the conversation as an involved part to the discussion. Not only does it represent a conflict as you have your own intentions, it opens up the possibility of simply hiding opinions that you simply do not agree with. My original comment was to provide an alternative solution and it's relevance was further sealed when it was proposed by another editor that a consensus currently exists to have any mention of the Washington Post source excluded from anywhere in the article. Mkdwtalk19:44, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
I'm in support for closing this discussion. I am shocked at the round about ways people are attempt to discredit and even hide portions of the discussion. It shows an extremely poor attempt at good faith discussion and I think an RFC may be our best option. Mkdwtalk20:09, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
My attempts at initiating a discussion have gone without fruit, and the other party merely continues to revert and repeat him or herself.
Have you tried to resolve this previously?
Discussion on the talk page, and on user pages.
How do you think we can help?
A third party stepping into the dispute might be the catalyst necessary to initiate a two-way dialogue.
Summary of dispute by TheRedPenOfDoom
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
MjolnirPants does not appear to understand WP:OR and wishes to include duplicative plot information (a "Plot points" section" in addition to a plot summary) in multiple articles to show that plot points are somehow connected across novels when there are no external sources that make such claims in general let alone every specific claim the user wants to include in the article. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom03:47, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
@Ngebendi: To prevent policy-based clean up of one article purely for the sake of keeping the consistent with other articles, particularly when the other articles are not FA or even GA is to me a glaring example of Consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds. The application in general would mean that we would NEVER be able to clean up any article because on the balance most articles dont comply with policy. You have to start clean up somewhere. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom13:12, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
Summary of dispute by NeilN
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
From WP:PRIMARY: "For example, an article about a novel may cite passages to describe the plot, but any interpretation needs a secondary source. Do not analyze, synthesize, interpret, or evaluate material found in a primary source yourself; instead, refer to reliable secondary sources that do so." Describing the plot and then highlighting plot points and themes is analysis. Examples:
The Denarians: Harry being forced to work with them is the main plot of the book.
Family ties: Harry's relationship with his daughter Maggie appears to be growing.
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Mine is somewhat of a side issue - since a "Plot Point" section is/was present in the pages of fourteen books of the same series, there should/should not be one also in the 15th, for consistency. Don't particularly care about which.Ngebendi (talk) 15:50, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
Summary of dispute by MjolnirPants
As I have already explained on the talk page, the majority of information presented in the plot points section is not duplicated. TRPoD's assertion that I fail to grasp WP:OR is misplaced and fails to assume good faith, as I have already explained (and to anyone who owns a copy of the book, I can demonstrate) that the material is verifiable and does not require any synthesis.
With the specific points identified by NeilN, his assertion that the first point is not sourced in the citation is flatly wrong. The source explicitly verifies this claim. Regarding the second, NeilN is correct only in asserting that the material does not appear in the source cited, but that is a problem only with the citation. Should the citation be changed from the interview to the book, it would be well-sourced.
Finally, regarding NeilN's claim that identifying plot points and themes is OR:
Nowhere in the plot points section is there any analysis of a theme of an individual book, or the series as a whole. It is the exception (not the rule) that plot points mentioned in these sections are previously described in the plot summary, and those can be dealt with individually. Finally, not only is there a precedent in all but one of the other books, but it is useful in that there is a plot which spans the entire series, specific points of which are addressed in specific books. This does not constitute synthesis because in each case, the book explicitly describes those points as either resolving or setting up a long-term plot question.
In summary, every single claim made by these two (NeilN only became involved at the last minute, and is the only one to engage in any appreciable level of discourse with me) is either demonstrably false or would result in a less useful article if accepted. I have presented a compromise by way of offering to reformat all of the plot point sections into prosaic subsections of the summary, but this offer has been completely ignored. With any luck, a neutral outsider will help resolve this issue by fostering a level of discussion that might result in the other side of this dispute developing a willingness to achieve a compromise. MjolnirPantsTell me all about it.14:26, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
Talk:Skin Game (novel) discussion
Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
Hi. I am Lixxx235, and I will be the helper in this case. This is my first DRN case, so if you feel I'm too inexperienced, let me know for sure and I'll try to get another helper. Thanks, Lixxx235Got a complaint?13:58, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
@MjolnirPants:You don't seem to have written an actual summary about the dispute yet, unless your dispute is about user conduct, in which case DRN is not the right place. Once we get that summary, we can move to the next stage. Thanks, Lixxx235Got a complaint?14:04, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
@Lixxx235: I was in the process of writing one as you posted. I attempted to let the opposition be the first to voice their opinion in this case, as a matter of courtesy. My summary is above, and I apologize for its verbosity, but I couldn't be more concise without failing to address important details. MjolnirPantsTell me all about it.14:26, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
Hi Lixxx235, Thanks for stepping up to moderate a case at DRN. I'm sure you will do a fine job. As a veteran DRN volunteer I'll keep an eye on this case and will comment either here or on your talk page if I have a helpful suggestion. Also, you will find some helpful info here. Meantime, please forge ahead! and ping me if I can be of assistance. -- — Keithbob • Talk • 15:56, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
My desired outcome is that Skin Game and the other articles about the novels in the series comply with WP:OR - that any assertions , analysis and cross novel comparisons are supported by third party reliable sources making the claims and not Wikipedia editors. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom09:29, 12 June 2014 (UTC)
For the articles to adhere to MOS:NOVEL. One section on plot, one (sourced) section on themes instead of "Plot" and "plot points". Incidentally Lixxx235, your pings won't work - you need to sign in the same edit you add pings. --NeilNtalk to me12:22, 12 June 2014 (UTC)
My desired outcome is to avoid removing highly relevant plot information from the articles in the interest of satisfying TRPoD's demonstrable misunderstanding of OR. My offered compromise would address every concern expressed by all four involved parties. MjolnirPantsTell me all about it.13:12, 12 June 2014 (UTC)
Personally, I'd like to have some sort of summary of the important points of each book as they progress in the series, I do not particularly care what form this summary takes. Nor do I require it; the points made in favor and against the "Plot Point" section are a bit too convolute for me to grasp. What I do care about, however, is that, since there are fifteen books, and fifteen pages, a certain consistency among them is kept; this discussion seemed to be entirely focused on "Skin Game", and the two main participants more focused on expressing their respective positions than in keeping track of the whole picture. Ngebendi (talk) 17:15, 12 June 2014 (UTC)
Sorry, I haven't been responding here. I shouldn't have taken this task because I have exams(I'm writing this in a 10-minute break between exams). Keithbob, mind if you take over? Thanks, Lixxx235Got a complaint?13:46, 13 June 2014 (UTC)
Hi, I'm a regular volunteer here at DRN. I'm not sure that I want to "take" this dispute now than Lixxx235 has said that he can no longer handle it, but in considering whether or not to take it, I would like a clarification about something. @MjolnirPants:: You have on several occasions said that TRPOD is wrong or has a "demonstrable misunderstanding" about OR. Would you please demonstrate that misunderstanding? That is, would you please say why you believe that he is wrong? Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 14:06, 13 June 2014 (UTC)
Absolutely. Let me preface by saying that I am sure that across the whole of the series, there will be a one or two items in the plot points sections that constitute WP:OR in some form (likely a quite debatable form, but nonetheless), but that is hardly true for the vast majority and I am quite willing to cut loose any specific plot points which do.
I pointed out in my initial post on this subject that the plot points are sourced in the books, portrayed in the book as being plot points, and where they are points regarding the overall plot of the series, they are described in the book in which they appear as being elements of a series of events which has been occurring over the time span of multiple books. For instance, a person who only read Changes would be informed that the war between the Red Court and the White Council has begun during a previous adventure of Harry's and was a sign of brewing troubles to come, in addition to having previous plot points related to this war summarized. The books are generally quite explicit in tying together these book-spanning events whenever they are mentioned.
Recently, NeilN highlighted one plot point from Skin Game, which was: "Family ties: Harry's relationship with his daughter Maggie appears to be growing." and identified it as analysis. When I responded that the novel explicitly describes Harry's relationship with his daughter growing, TRPoD responded that it is still analysis.
NeilN has also mentioned that the plot points describe themes in the books multiple times. I trust I do not need to provide contrasting definitions of the literary terms "theme" and "plot point" in order to demonstrate how this is incorrect, but I will if necessary.
My assertion stems from these exchanges: Even though I have been quite explicit about how these plot points are well-sourced and do not require any synthesis, TRPoD has maintained his or her assertion that they are still OR. Since we must assume good faith, I do not assert that TRPoD is trolling me or refusing to read my comments, but rather that TRPoD doesn't understand what OR is with respect to a novel.
As a final note, I should point out that I have offered to either move the plot points to the main article for the series, or to re-write them prosaically and move them to a subsection of the plot summary. Both of my offers at compromise have been flatly ignored, suggesting that any complaints TRPoD and NeilN have about the formatting are tangential. MjolnirPantsTell me all about it.15:13, 13 June 2014 (UTC)
MP, you say "portrayed in the book as being plot points, and where they are points regarding the overall plot of the series, they are described in the book in which they appear." What do you mean by "portrayed" and "described" (and later "informed")? The meanings of those terms could range from "they happened in the story" to "they were expressly described in a plot points appendix." I think you're saying, or saying something very close to, the latter: in other words, you're saying that you could quote verbatim passages from the books where those plot points are set out in words which would not require an ordinary reader to engage in analysis or interpretation or contextualization to understand. Is that correct? Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 17:26, 13 June 2014 (UTC)
To be clear, I meant "They happened in the story," with respect to the fact that the vast majority of the plot points are descriptions of specific events, or summaries of events.
I'll give you an example, using one of the plot points quoted by NeilN above.
The Denarians: Harry being forced to work with them is the main plot of the book.
A man of medium height and build rose from his chair. He was dressed in a black silk suit, a black shirt, and a worn grey tie. He had dark hair threaded with silver and dark eyes, and he moved with the coiled grace of a snake. There was a smile on his mouth, but not in his eyes as he faced me. "Well, well, well. Harry Dresden." "Nicodemus Archleone." I slurred into a Connery accent. "My cut hash improved your voish."
One could argue that this passage mentions Nicodemus, not the Denarians, or one could argue that it requires the reader to read another passages to arrive at the conclusion that he's working with them, but that would be an blatant example of wikilawyering. The passage which explicitly states that Harry must work with the Denarians refer to them and Nicodemus only by the use of pronouns. One could then argue (following NeilN's tactic) that this is still synth, as one must read another passage to learn who "they" are. It would be synthesis only in the most strict and unyielding definition of the term, of the sort specifically dissuaded by the popular and well-accepted essay Wikipedia:What SYNTH is not.MjolnirPantsTell me all about it.18:05, 13 June 2014 (UTC)
break
First, sorry about the delay in response. I only had limited time to edit on Friday and I don't generally edit on weekends, but I should have mentioned that sooner. Second, you say, "One could argue that this passage mentions Nicodemus, not the Denarians, or one could argue that it requires the reader to read another passages to arrive at the conclusion that he's working with them..." Are the Denarians identified by that name in the same book from which you took the quote, above, and are the other passages you refer to also in that same book? I would presume that they are, from the context of your remarks, but I just want to verify that. Presuming that they are, let me say that the line between summarizing and synthesizing can be quite fine but I've always felt that there's a fairly bright-line test: For any average user of Wikipedia of average intelligence, without any specialized or insider or prior knowledge of the material being summarized, once they've read both the source and the summary if asked whether the summary fairly and accurately summarizes the source, the answer should be, "Duh, of course it does." However, having said that, let me veer in a different direction: In the example you gave, I rather suspect that the weak point is not that he's forced to work with them but that it's the "main plot." I'm wholly unfamiliar with the book or the series or the TV show, but that sounds to me that the conclusion that it's the main plot might come from an in-universe knowledge of the overall series, not just from that one book. Finally, let me add a philosophical note: While I appreciate what you're saying about WP:SYNTHNOT#SYNTH is not summary, do you realize that synth is applied more aggressively in this case than usual due to PRIMARY, which says "Do not analyze, synthesize, interpret, or evaluate material found in a primary source yourself; instead, refer to reliable secondary sources that do so. Do not base an entire article on primary sources, and be cautious about basing large passages on them."? (Emphasis as in original.) Wikipedia forbids articles, or large passages of articles, being based on primary sources (as is, incidentally, being done here). The fact that the plot summary can be based upon the novel itself, a primary source, is stretching Wikipedia's basic rules and principles to just short of the bursting point; to object to the least little bit of synthesis is not wikilawyering but upholding Wikipedia principles in such a case. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 14:20, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
A quick note: I've edited out a duplicated sentence in your post, on the assumption that it was accidental.
@TransporterMan: I originally responded to this by taking several quotes from your comment and responding individually to each. You may read that original response here. Instead of inserting another wall of text, I decided to place that elsewhere and respond to what I feel is the major point of contention.
I believe the issue here lies in a conflict of understanding about the plot point section itself. Your response seem based on the assumption that the section in question is fundamentally different from the plot summary. This may be due to some phrasing issues or the use of certain words. Let me say unequivocally, that any analysis this may imply is not something I am defending.
However, I also must state unequivocally that the overall nature of the plot points sections is not one of analysis or interpretation, and poorly chosen grammar on the part of the original contributors must not be taken as evidence of the falsehood of this. For each plot point which is potentially analytical, I can easily provide a dozen which are not to evince the overall nature of the section, or else demonstrate that re-phrasing would eliminate any veneer of interpretation from it. For instance:
Family ties: Harry's relationship with his daughter Maggie appears to be growing.
could be rephrased as:
Family ties: Harry begins to take on a greater paternal role in his daughter's life.
In this case, I can provide the following passage in which the character explicitly states he is taking on a greater paternal role.
She looked at my face searchingly for a moment and then said, in a tiny voice, "Do you want to be my dad?" I went blind for a few seconds, until I blinked the tears away. "Sure," I said. It came out in a tight croak, but when I said it she smiled at me.
— Skin Game, page 263
I can understand how the word "appears" can change the way one reads a sentence. I cannot however, by any stretch of the imagination, understand how one could argue that any analysis or synthesis is required to arrive at the conclusion that this passage depicts Harry's relationship with his daughter growing. MjolnirPantsTell me all about it.17:58, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
@TheRedPenOfDoom:, 1) I suggest you read the books before making any more of these self-serving proclamations about the contents of the book:
I put the car in park and eyed the house nervously. I hadn't been there since my last trip to Chicago, the year before. I'd stopped by when I'd been pretty sure no one was home, like a big old coward, to collect my dog, Mouse for a secret mission. Doing so had permitted me to craftily dodge my first meeting with my daughter since I'd carries her from the blood-soaked temple in Chichén Itzá, from the deaths of thousands of vampires of the Red Court–and from her mother's body, dead by my hands.
— Skin Game, page 140-141
...Because, contrary to your uninformed assertion, the book does describe his relationship with his daughter prior to that. As I've explained at least 4 times now: The books summarize any information you need to know to make sense of multi-book spanning plot points.
2) Why don't you explain how Harry's relationship with his daughter is not important? Even if you make a case for Harry's paternity not affecting the plot of this novel (which you won't, because I will promptly quote the passage where Mab blackmails him using his daughter in order to motivate him to participate in the events of the novel), doing so would be arguing in complete ignorance of my initial offer to move the information to The Dresden Files. At which point you will, no doubt, argue that Harry's paternity has no bearing on the overall story arc, and the fact that it entirely drives the events of one novel and at least partially drives the events of another is immaterial. MjolnirPantsTell me all about it.13:43, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
MP, why don't you just go ahead and do that, i.e. move them boldly into the series article and restate them in a non-synthetic manner? You don't need to wait for anyone's consent to do that. Once that is done, if no one reverts, then that will perhaps refocus the discussion. Right now, I'm having a great deal of difficulty in discerning the actual center of the dispute. Do that, we'll close this DRN listing, and then you can discuss any points which arise from that at the series talk page and come back here if you can't work them out. Best regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 14:05, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
To be perfectly frank, TRPoD has shown me already that he or she will continue to edit war, even going so far as to make edits that seem calculated to exacerbate the issue with edits like this one and this one. As I stated in the opening to this case, I was attempting to use this as a way of achieving some level of discourse, in the hopes of staving off any edit warring. My hope was that all parties could agree on a compromise. However, it's becoming more and more clear that this will not be possible, as evidence by TRPoD's last comment here. So, I think I will take your advice, and apparently I will have to rely on AN/I if the problem persists. MjolnirPantsTell me all about it.14:41, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
to be perfectly frank, i am not seeing that you have any desire to bring any of the articles into closer compliance with policy by providing any third party sourced material - you simply seem to wish to include your personal observations and grouse at the fact that the poor condition of the articles is being noted by others. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom04:07, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
one person is trying to add a fake information even though this was removed.
below information on religions is misleading and this is a fake information. "Hinduism was the major religion practiced on the island prior to the introduction of Buddhism" There are no proves available on this point. The earliest surviving chronicles from the island, the Dipavansa and the Mahavansa, say that tribes of Yakkhas (demon worshippers), Nagas (cobra worshippers) and Devas (god worshippers) inhabited the island in 6th century BC.
I have removed this paragraph 2 times and the above user was mentioned this is a dispute and has informed to wiki.
How do you think we can help?
this is a very sensitive information regarding a country history and most of the students referring wiki pages for their studies. please warn to this aether and please check accuracy of the other articles posted by this editor.
Summary of dispute by obi2canibe
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Religion in_Sri_Lanka discussion
Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Issue resolved on the talk page. Closing at the request of the two main participants in the dispute, including the filing party. — Keithbob • Talk • 20:43, 19 June 2014 (UTC)
Closed discussion
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
The article represents an unsubstantiated statement as a fact, not the opinion of the person being quoted in the citation. Various attempts to include revisions with formal studies contradicting the statement have been removed.
Provided multiple recommended edits, including keeping the offending statement but changing it to read as an opinion.
How do you think we can help?
An independent party who does not have a background in horses and would thus be unbiased would be able to look at the issue objectively. Equestrianism is a sport deeply rooted in tradition, and can make people very passionate about their opinions.
Summary of dispute by Montanabw
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
The article in question is a GA, at peer review pending an FAC push. All material is sourced. It is high traffic and has had over 500,000 hits since its creation in late March. The user's original request was to place WP:UNDUE weight on a minor side issue (are white horse hooves different from dark horse hooves) that would insert a POV rant and biased language. I opposed it and since that time was subjected to personal attacks that wound up getting the user warned while still an IP editor. (see here)] The user initially presented a blog as a source, and then went on to add an article by a WP:FRINGE practitioner. There are some preliminary published studies that a neutral editor noted for both of us, I read the abstracts and found them inconclusive due to unclear sample size and insufficient evidence of double-blind assessment. Nonetheless, because this user will not drop the WP:STICK, I have edited the article per WP:RSOPINION to quote an opinion directly instead of indirectly. Read the talk page discussion, it pretty much is what it is. This article is not the place for a battleground over whether horse hooves that are white or black have differences. I suggested the bigger issue be taken to Horse hoof for further discussion. As far as I am concerned, this issue is over. Montanabw(talk)21:15, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
I move the offending section from beginning of paragraph to end to reduce significance: [21]
Per the other user's note of WP:RSOPINION, I redid section to quote the opinion of the horse's trainer directly instead of the conclusion from third parties. [22]. Montanabw(talk)21:29, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
Then other editor adds an overgeneralized POV argument that is a red herring: [23]
Comment olive
Controversial content in bold:
Art Sherman stated, “All horses with four white feet are prone to needing more care ... The [hooves] can be shellier ... We’re always working on his feet. Horses with white hooves, they have a tendency to have problems if you don’t keep up with them.” Thus far, scientific studies have shown no correlation between hoof health and color. [1]
The source does not reference California Chrome and is a general short statement about hoof colour. As such this is a synthesis of content designed to comment on the research on hoof colour and does not per WP:OR directly reference the topic of the article- CC, and is original research.(Littleolive oil (talk) 02:27, 17 June 2014 (UTC))
My comment is in reference to Laurelmw's post here and to a ref and content she wanted to include that would have been WP:OR. I'd suggest this discussion go back to the talk page if there is another ref and new content being proposed. (Littleolive oil (talk) 17:03, 17 June 2014 (UTC))
Comment Froggerlaura
In response to Olive's comment: This article (not the greatest source I know) directly addresses California Chrome AND the white/dark hoof debate. This has gotten quite silly. In my experience (no weight for Wiki, I know), there is not a difference unless the horse has photosensitization issues that also affect the non-pigmented coronary bands. Froggerlauraribbit04:25, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
I think the person who filed this and myself are now working it out on the talk page. The other two people who commented will probably go along with whatever agreement we reach. Unless the other party objects, I think this dispute can be closed because we have both settled down and are working in good faith to resolve the issue. Montanabw(talk)18:13, 19 June 2014 (UTC)
Thank you both for your continued good faith efforts to resolve the issue. I will now close the case as Resolved.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 20:39, 19 June 2014 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Template talk:Infobox automobile#WP:V vs. Manufacturer
Closed as out-of scope of DRN - Hello, I'm MrScorch6200, a volunteer here. Something as widely used as a template shouldn't be modified without a good consensus, let alone from just a couple of users in a dispute. DRN should be used for small content disputes between a few users, not for modifying a template used on thousands of pages in the view of two editors. I am going to close this dispute as out-of-scope of DRN and defer you to the template's talk page. Since there is already a large deal of discussion there, I suggest creating a Request for Comment. A RFC will get you input from a good number of users and it will usually be large enough to form a consensus. Take your time during the dispute and stay civil. It would be helpful if the template is left as-is until a consensus can be reached. Thank you, MrScorch6200 (talk | ctrb)13:26, 21 June 2014 (UTC)
Closed discussion
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
In several thousand articles using the template, data has been entered in the manufacturer field. Most of these entries are unsourced and may be partially or even completely wrong. The discussion shows the following:
1. No one of those who have contributed knew what “manufacturer” actually means. One can assume that the same goes for most of those who have used the field (and for most readers, by the way).
2. No one could tell where to find reliable, published sources in order to verify if entries are correct. Even detailed literature about enthusiast’s cars rarely gives conclusive information.
3. No one agreed to remove the parameter from the template.
Have you tried to resolve this previously?
I have suggested removing the parameter from the template and telling about the manufacturer in the article, if there ever happens to be a reliable source.
How do you think we can help?
I hope you can help finding a solution to remove wrong or possibly wrong data from a large number of articles.
Summary of dispute by Gwafton
The manufacturer of a vehicle model is relevant and shall be included in the infobox in order to ease information seeking.
The manufacturers are mentioned in verifiable sources in most cases.
The ground for the parameter removal is odd in my opinion (excluding the possibility of adding false information – a reason to close the whole Wikipedia?).
Compromise proposal
The parameter Company shall be added as an alternative parameter for Manufacturer, allowing a more loose definition whenever appropriate. --Gwafton (talk) 16:18, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
Summary of dispute by Bahnfrend
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Template talk:Infobox automobile#WP:V vs. Manufacturer discussion
Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
– General close. See comments for reasoning.
– This request has been open for some time and must be reviewed.
Dispute resolved successfully. See comments for reasoning.
– Closed as failed. See comments for reasoning.