User talk:Timotheus Canens/Archives/2012/3
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About your comment on the "Nagorno-Karabakh article" thread in Arbitration
Just a general question. You said that misconduct is not required before a warning. However, is a warning required before any sanctions are handed down? And if one is, how should an editor be made aware of the warning? Meowy 20:34, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
- Generally speaking, yes. The traditional way is by a post on the talk page ({{uw-sanctions}}, for example). There are also other ways for an editor to be warned: for example, in the 1RR case, the edit notice is deemed to be enough warning since an editor will necessarily see it before making an edit. If an user has been previously sanctioned, the sanction notice also serves as a warning. In several cases, we have also found editors to have been constructively warned based on their prior participation at AE. T. Canens (talk) 22:51, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
- I think you are missing one important point. I agree that to impose 1RR restriction on some particular user per {{uw-sanctions}} may be quite correct, however, such a step is per se a sanction, not a warning. When some user reads a message that he is under 1RR, that means that he has been sanctioned: his editorial privileges appear to be restricted, so even a second (even technical) revert may lead to block. When the message about 1RR is placed not at the user talk page, but at the article talk page, then everyone (including those who visit this page for a first time) appears to be sanctioned as if they were established edit-warriors. Therefore, the idea to indiscriminately warn all users that their editorial privileges are restricted contradicts to the elementary common sense. (In the case of the Mass Killings Under Communist Regimes article, the situation is even worse: the community appeared to be effectively banned from editing of this article; in this case the edit notice is not a warning about possible ban, it is an information for everyone that they have already been sanctioned for violations committed by someone else).
- I noticed you have put forward the idea of collective edit restriction for some concrete group of users. That idea seems quite reasonable, and it is in accordance with the spirit of {{uw-sanctions}}. However, the present situation, when the sanctions are applied to the article, not to some concrete users (or to a large, although strictly outlined amount of them) is intrinsically flawed.
- I have read this diacussion, however, I think we need to return to this issue again for the reasons described by me above.
- Regards, --Paul Siebert (talk) 02:41, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
- Whether or not a particular sanction is useful, the extent of AE authority with respect to article-level restrictions is determined by arbcom and not subject to reinterpretation by AE admins. If you want to change it, you'll need to direct your comments to arbcom directly. T. Canens (talk) 02:57, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
- You are probably right, I'll try to do that. Can you please explain me what is a standard procedure for doing that?--Paul Siebert (talk) 03:05, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
- Probably WP:A/R/A. T. Canens (talk) 08:49, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
- While discussion on talk pages continues, the improvement works in Nagorno-Karabakh article are effectively on hold. I want to hear your opinion before attempting to make changes in the text of the article. Winterbliss (talk) 18:50, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
- You are probably right, I'll try to do that. Can you please explain me what is a standard procedure for doing that?--Paul Siebert (talk) 03:05, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
- Whether or not a particular sanction is useful, the extent of AE authority with respect to article-level restrictions is determined by arbcom and not subject to reinterpretation by AE admins. If you want to change it, you'll need to direct your comments to arbcom directly. T. Canens (talk) 02:57, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
- Another question, what do you mean by "edit notice" when you said "article-level discretionary sanctions are permitted under Wikipedia talk:Requests for arbitration/Armenia-Azerbaijan 2#Request for clarification: Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Armenia-Azerbaijan 2. The edit notice serves as the requisite warning."? Meowy 21:49, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
- WP:Edit notice. For example, the edit notice of AE is the yellow box with filing instructions above the wikitext box when you try to edit the page. T. Canens (talk) 22:22, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
- Sorry - I still don't understand! Can you tell me a page that has this notice. Forexample, all I see above the Nagorno-Karabakh edit box is a pink box sayingthe article is semi-protected. BTW, I asked this, and the earlier question, here rather than on the actual discussion because of this: http://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AMeowy%2FArchive_1&diff=339982679&oldid=337919255 However, I now felt I had to make a comment on that discussion page because another editor has reposted a comment I had made elsewhere, and misinterpreted the meaning of the quote. I hope this is not used as an excuse for some sanction - I think I should have a right to clarify my opinion when the misinterpretation of that opinion makes out that I am being very critical of another editor abilities. Meowy 22:29, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
- Is this the thing you mean, on the Armenian Genocide editing window? It is a green box, but mentions the sanctions. This is actually the first article I have seen this on, and I think new or inexperienced users would easily miss it or not understand it. Meowy 22:33, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
- Yes - the coloring is up to the person creating the notice. I think the somewhat more common version is what you see here. Now if they see that big red stop sign and still choose to ignore it, they do it at their own peril. T. Canens (talk) 08:23, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks, I understand now! Who can create these notices - anyone or only admins? Meowy 17:02, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
- "All users can create editnotices for their user and talk pages, but editnotices for other namespaces can be created and edited only by administrators and account creators." Of course, that doesn't mean that non-admins can create an 1RR edit notice and expect admins to enforce it... T. Canens (talk) 17:38, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks, I understand now! Who can create these notices - anyone or only admins? Meowy 17:02, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
- Yes - the coloring is up to the person creating the notice. I think the somewhat more common version is what you see here. Now if they see that big red stop sign and still choose to ignore it, they do it at their own peril. T. Canens (talk) 08:23, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
- Is this the thing you mean, on the Armenian Genocide editing window? It is a green box, but mentions the sanctions. This is actually the first article I have seen this on, and I think new or inexperienced users would easily miss it or not understand it. Meowy 22:33, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
- Sorry - I still don't understand! Can you tell me a page that has this notice. Forexample, all I see above the Nagorno-Karabakh edit box is a pink box sayingthe article is semi-protected. BTW, I asked this, and the earlier question, here rather than on the actual discussion because of this: http://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AMeowy%2FArchive_1&diff=339982679&oldid=337919255 However, I now felt I had to make a comment on that discussion page because another editor has reposted a comment I had made elsewhere, and misinterpreted the meaning of the quote. I hope this is not used as an excuse for some sanction - I think I should have a right to clarify my opinion when the misinterpretation of that opinion makes out that I am being very critical of another editor abilities. Meowy 22:29, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
- WP:Edit notice. For example, the edit notice of AE is the yellow box with filing instructions above the wikitext box when you try to edit the page. T. Canens (talk) 22:22, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
Hi Tim. This case did have sanctions against Vlad Fedorov and two others who were not parties and were not named in the title of the case. Did you mean, no sanctions *still in effect* against non-parties? EdJohnston (talk) 18:34, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
- What I meant to say is that it does not have sanctions that can be applied to editors not sanctioned in the original decision. T. Canens (talk) 18:51, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
- Since the arbs appear receptive to this set of changes, can you state a criterion for when you think a case should keep the name or names of the main people involved? Such a criterion could be kept around somewhere and used to guide future case naming. EdJohnston (talk) 17:23, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
- I'm not sure what's the best way to put it, but my view is that if a case has substantive remedies that is applicable to an entire area (article probation, discretionary sanctions, binding RFC, and the like), it should be preferably named after the area rather than one or two editors. If the remedy is limited to certain specific editors named in the decision, it's not as big a problem to me for it to be named after some of these editors. T. Canens (talk) 17:33, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
- Since the arbs appear receptive to this set of changes, can you state a criterion for when you think a case should keep the name or names of the main people involved? Such a criterion could be kept around somewhere and used to guide future case naming. EdJohnston (talk) 17:23, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
Question about an IP block
Hi. I've been editing since March 2005, and an admin since November 2007, and today, while I was waiting for a train, I tried to edit the Jersey City Medical Center article from my iPhone, and got a message saying that blocked by you for BLP violations, with the block set to expire November 8, 2012. Even odder, the IP indicated is 166.137.136.0/22. I was unaware of any IPs with forward slashes in them, and I couldn't find this IP when I returned home and used my username account. Can you explain if this is a legitimate IP, and what BLP violations were committed from it? Thanks. Nightscream (talk) 01:19, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
- See mw:Help:Range blocks. That block is a block of 1,024 IP addresses. Courcelles 01:22, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
- User talk:Timotheus Canens/Archives/2011/11#Possible rangeblock and User talk:Timotheus Canens/Archives/2011/3#Persistant IP and User talk:Timotheus Canens/Archives/2010/11#Re-block needed have the details. T. Canens (talk) 01:34, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
- Ah. I see. Is there any way for the IP of my iPhone to be exempt from that range block? Nightscream (talk) 05:23, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
- Um, no. Cellphone IPs are not static. If you log in (not necessarily on your admin account - you can create one for your iPhone) then you shouldn't be affected by the block though. T. Canens (talk) 08:19, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
- I meant if I didn't log in. Nightscream (talk) 06:31, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
- Then no. There's no way for the system to distinguish you from the vandal if you don't log in. T. Canens (talk) 06:32, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
- Alright, thanks for the info, Tim. :-) Nightscream (talk) 05:56, 8 March 2012 (UTC)
- Then no. There's no way for the system to distinguish you from the vandal if you don't log in. T. Canens (talk) 06:32, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
- I meant if I didn't log in. Nightscream (talk) 06:31, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
- Um, no. Cellphone IPs are not static. If you log in (not necessarily on your admin account - you can create one for your iPhone) then you shouldn't be affected by the block though. T. Canens (talk) 08:19, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
- Ah. I see. Is there any way for the IP of my iPhone to be exempt from that range block? Nightscream (talk) 05:23, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
- User talk:Timotheus Canens/Archives/2011/11#Possible rangeblock and User talk:Timotheus Canens/Archives/2011/3#Persistant IP and User talk:Timotheus Canens/Archives/2010/11#Re-block needed have the details. T. Canens (talk) 01:34, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
Nagorno-Karabakh article" thread in AE
Hello Tim. The thread in AE forum [1] has been open for more than two weeks already, and I tend to believe the discussion has run its course. I guess, it is not unreasonable to request to put the issue to rest, and simply advise the interested parties to stick to productive discussion on talk pages of the article itself. Have a nice day. Winterbliss (talk) 22:30, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
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Please
Desysopping, I was expecting. Just don't shoot me. --Floquenbeam (talk) 02:13, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
- I was thinking more about hanged, drawn and quartered.
T. Canens (talk) 04:23, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
Tom harrison ban
This discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
As a reminder, Mkat had allowed for 30 days before reviewing the indef. We are just a couple of days away from reaching it. Are you going to re-examine the case? I don't think Tom has done anything particularly objectionable since the ban was instated.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 16:29, 7 March 2012 (UTC) I concur with TDA above, but emphasize that Tom hadn't done anything objectionable to begin with...Tom doesn't think so either gathering from his talkpage comments...when discussing the conspiracy theories behind 9/11, and the history of their evolution, it isn't news except to those poorly versed in these ridiculous theories that there was at least early on, a strong anti-Semitic overtone to many of them. Perhaps Tom could be asked to provide further background on this matter in his usertalk but that thesis may be too advanced for this pedia.MONGO 12:52, 8 March 2012 (UTC)
So, Tim, are you going to re-examine the ban on your own or are you going to want Tom to appeal it?--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 22:34, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
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Before you do anything
Before you do anything, please review the following notes:
- http://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AArbitration%2FRequests%2FEnforcement&diff=480721511&oldid=480720528
- http://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Closing_note
With respect, JaakobouChalk Talk 20:30, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
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Taiwan
Re [2]. Although Taiwan and the Republic of China aren't related to Macedonia or Ireland, the dispute around the naming of the Republic of China article is essentially identical as the previous disputes around Republic of Ireland and Republic of Macedonia. Further, only registered users may file a new case at WP:A/R/C. Would you reconsider your decision, or advise what I should do to file a new case? 61.18.170.26 (talk) 18:19, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
- No. You might want to ask a clerk for help. T. Canens (talk) 06:23, 10 March 2012 (UTC)
You are being discussed at . . .
Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_adminship#Suggestion_for_new_crats. MBisanz talk 22:23, 10 March 2012 (UTC)
Happy Adminship Anniversary
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Topic Ban
Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you.— Preceding unsigned comment added by DHeyward (talk • contribs) 07:06, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
Taiwan
Re [3]. Although Taiwan and the Republic of China aren't related to Macedonia or Ireland, the dispute around the naming of the Republic of China article is essentially identical as the previous disputes around Republic of Ireland and Republic of Macedonia. Further, only registered users may file a new case at WP:A/R/C. Would you reconsider your decision, or advise what I should do to file a new case? 61.18.170.125 (talk) 11:37, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
- Please reply here, since I am not using a static IP address. Thanks. 61.18.170.117 (talk) 11:40, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
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Tom harrison
About a month ago, you said that you would look at Tom's edits in a few weeks, and lift the ban if you think it is appropriate.[4] Have you a had a chance to do so yet? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 17:17, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
- I'm travelling until March 18. I'll take a look after that, unless the current AN thread lifts it, obviously. T. Canens (talk) 18:55, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
- OK, thanks. (Sorry for the post, I didn't see the discussion at AN or above until after I posted this.) A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 23:56, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
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I saw you had done some work on heavily-used gadgets. We're trying to start a library for gadget authors to use. Please check it out and post any questions or comments there — ☠MarkAHershberger☢(talk)☣ 18:38, 14 March 2012 (UTC)
Chesdovi AE Appeal
Chesdovi is specifically mentioning you in his appeal over on AE, although I'm certain you would see it on patrol, I thought I'd let you know. --WGFinley (talk) 18:12, 12 March 2012 (UTC)
- Hi, Timotheus. I noticed your stated intention to close this appeal thread at AE. Thanks for announcing that; I think it's immensely good form to do so, and I wish it were the rule at AE, rather than the exception. Still, I did want to mention that it's just four hours into the Judaism's Sabbath where Chesdovi resides, and that as a rabbi, he may observe it in an Orthodox way, which I understand would exclude the use of electronic devices like computers. Also, I'm sure you noticed his comment, in green text (permalink) asking for time to prepare a more comprehensive statement for posting to the AE thread.
- I realize his comment spoke of finishing that statement "tomorrow", which would have been sometime on 15 March 2012 (UTC), and that admin consensus may not change with the presentation of any new statement. But especially since Chesdovi didn't feel "heard" before ( quite understandably, since his previous appeal was never transferred from his talk to AE, as he'd requested ) I'd be much in favor of giving him another couple of days, at least, rather than just another day. I'd see no harm in that, and if he is still working on something, it would have to be immensely frustrating to him not to be able to present it. Not an admin opinion, of course, this, but perhaps you'll take it under advisement, anyway. Thanks for your work trying to help keep order in the topic area. Cordially, – OhioStandard (talk) 14:11, 17 March 2012 (UTC)
- Sure, I'll wait a couple more days, though as I explained, my view is that his promised statement is addressing an issue that should not be open for discussion in the current procedural posture. T. Canens (talk) 17:41, 18 March 2012 (UTC)
- That's gracious, and I appreciate it. I do agree with you, though, re the procedural aspect. JamesBWatson told him essentially the same thing, back in January, over an earlier block appeal. My thought in asking you this was mostly just to try to keep from adding any more frustration to the man's life than is absolutely necessary. I expect you'd remember to do so anyway, but may I also just suggest that you check his talk page for any recent additions that may not have been copied over to AE, before you do close? Many thanks, – OhioStandard (talk) 12:17, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
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Question
[5] You placed 4 editors under an editing restriction. Well the RFC never happened and shortly after the restriction, another editor changed the article along exactly the lines I'd suggested. I currently have had 4 articles in my sandpit for a little under a year. I would like to move these to main but cannot whilst under editing restrictions. Its really frustrating as I have only ever edited productively but my edits were constantly reverted for no good reason by 2 editors who weren't about improving the article and yet because Arbcom and AE doesn't look at content they're classed as being of equal value. I would like to have my editing restriction removed but know from past experience that the Imalbornoz account will resurrect itself to frustrate my efforts. What should I do? Wee Curry Monster talk 12:40, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
- Under the circumstances, I'm rather inclined to lift the restriction on all 4 editors entirely and then see how it plays out. Can you file a formal appeal at AE so that we can get a few more eyes on this? T. Canens (talk) 04:41, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
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AE case
Since you are familiar with the editors involved would you mind reviewing this case, including my proposal?--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 14:09, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
Removal of Gemma McCluskie DYK hook
Thanks. I edit-conflicted with you in pulling that one off the Main Page. Reaper Eternal (talk) 15:23, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
AfD
Oops! - I don't know what happened there, sorry! Thanks for the revert :) - Alison ❤ 19:20, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
ESRO 2B deletion
I would like this article to be restored. I'm not sure what the justification was to delete it in the first place but the fact is that this is one of the first satellites launched by Europe. I'm really confused, why was this article dumped? --U5K0'sTalkMake WikiLove not WikiWar 10:00, 23 March 2012 (UTC)
- That article was created (and mostly written) by a user who is a long history of creating articles that are (1) copyright violations and (2) original research by synthesis. Under these circumstances, the community decided that the best way to handle the mess is simply to delete all articles he has ever created. I can userfy it if you want, but considering the myriad issues with this user's work it's probably best to start from scratch instead. T. Canens (talk) 10:35, 23 March 2012 (UTC)
- Was there a problem with this specific article? --U5K0'sTalkMake WikiLove not WikiWar 22:09, 23 March 2012 (UTC)
- Well, at least one section is a clear copyright violation. T. Canens (talk) 23:30, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
- Was there a problem with this specific article? --U5K0'sTalkMake WikiLove not WikiWar 22:09, 23 March 2012 (UTC)
Hope
I hope all this Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Cold fusion 2 is normal housekeeping and not cuz I messed things up Mlpearc (powwow) 02:03, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
- Mostly I messed up a selective restore so I had to do it twice :) T. Canens (talk) 23:29, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
Kissle
I've requested for permission to use Kissle. But it hasn't been reviewed. --Rsrikanth05 (talk) 08:06, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
Incorrect block status
Requires a developer to fix, see bugzilla:34014.
Cheers, Amalthea 07:07, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks! T. Canens (talk) 07:10, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
- Actually, for this particular block, unblocking #175820 did the trick
T. Canens (talk) 07:14, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
- Huh, apparently nobody had tried that yet. :) Amalthea 08:07, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
- Actually, for this particular block, unblocking #175820 did the trick
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Your comment at AE
Hi Tim, could you articulate the evidentiary basis of your comment[6], I see no violation by Volunteer Marek as Wikipedia:IBAN#Exceptions_to_limited_bans explicitly permits "asking an administrator to take action against a violation of an interaction ban by the other party" and WP:AE is one venue for asking for admin assistance. --Nug (talk) 10:18, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
simple request
Please also examine the iterated baiting of YRC over a period of time and note that ArbCom in the p[ast has stated that baiting is also a blockable offence. I am not asking that YRC be ignored, only that those who baited him repreatedly over a period of time also be noted and, as a minimum, given strict warnings to stay away from him. Cheers. Collect (talk) 12:17, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
Notification
Well, then this is relevant [7].VolunteerMarek 16:16, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
Questionable block of Youreally
Hi, Wikid77 here (I am not an admin). After hours of study, I have concluded that the block at User_talk:Youreallycan was unjustified (ANI link: ANI2339). The idea of a block was still being debated when this block was pre-maturely imposed. The incident revolved around the use of term "queer agenda" which is not an insult or derogatory term, with the common meaning of "queer" as being "odd" (or even "GLBT" which is also acceptable, as noted in an RfC mentioning "queer editors": RfC-diff-4374). Even a TV show popularized the term, "Queer as Folk" (pun on the archaic expression). Meanwhile, some editors expressed a prior hostility, wishing this editor to be blocked for past actions, already sanctioned by a warning, but that does not condone a "double jeopardy" to block an editor for past actions already cleared. Hence, there was no action, on the part of this editor, to justify this block. However, I realize when other editors start making hostile comments against another editor at ANI, it gives the illusion of wrong-doing, but WP does not block an editor merely because several people were upset with prior actions and wanted more severe punishment than the prior admin had decided. I was a formal debate judge, for years, so I am always watching to see if there is an improper non sequitor, unjustified conclusion, as there was in this case, of an unjustified block. The block against User:Youreallycan should be unblocked immediately. Plus, an apology should be given to the editor. Then, we need an essay that warns admins to beware hate-mongering about imposing punishment for past actions, already sanctioned, with no evidence supporting a new block. ANI often attracts people, as wp:Forum shopping, to gain retribution for past disagreements, at the slightest new incident. Reply here or there. Thanks. -Wikid77 (talk) 10:30, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
- In other words, I was either too lazy to look everything up carefully, or too incompetent to distinguish genuine misconduct from "smoke". Thanks, but no thanks. There's plainly and simply nothing justifiable about YRC's comments in that AFD. T. Canens (talk) 13:34, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
- Do you have any opinion about Salvio-Giuliano's intention to unblock? It doesn't appear that he has consulted you. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 22:05, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
- Well, I do have a standing waiver for cases where no reasonable admin would have done what I did, but personally I'm doubtful that this case falls into that category... T. Canens (talk) 22:14, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
- Do you have any opinion about Salvio-Giuliano's intention to unblock? It doesn't appear that he has consulted you. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 22:05, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
Blocked IP range and Orchid wars
Hi, there has been a puzzling frenzy of edits and reversions discussed at WP PLANTS that is involved with your block of the 69.171.160... range of IP's on 18th March. We've been wondering about this for a while, and I've come to imagine an innocent scenario that I really think worth accommodating if possible. The edits to orchid pages are voluminous, unsophisticated, but don't appear to be copyright violations (at least not major ones). They look very like the products of a class project (class projects to add material about particular species are fairly common). If that is the case, then the students are fighting a losing battle against the anti-vandalism editors who are reverting everything from that range of IP addresses, regardless of quality.
I don't understand the block mechanism at all well, but have the following requests about what I think would help this imaginary class and their imaginary professor. Does the block currently prevent people from those IP addresses from making signons? If so, could that be relaxed? Would it be possible to extend the block for longer than a year, so that if the same assignment is used in a future class it would be immediately apparent that the students need to find another way to edit (such as through proper signons)?
Thanks, and best wishes, Nadiatalent (talk) 19:02, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
- It's Circeus (talk · contribs)'s block - I merely tweaked the parameters to make it a bit softer. The block does prevent the creation of new accounts, but the block message contains a pointer to WP:ACC where they could request accounts to be created for them. T. Canens (talk) 22:16, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks! Nadiatalent (talk) 18:56, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
Wikipediaforum
Can you please look at this -- Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Involved_editors_and_harassment
There are more in this thread, which I will be adding. It's sad that these editors are obvious persuing a grudge. You may want to check the link at the AE thread, as they are mentioning you too. Russavia ლ(ಠ益ಠლ) 19:15, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
- In fact T, it'd be great if you could implement any blocks right now, I don't care if you block me for a year, and let everyone else off, let's just get this AE over and done with. There's too much back story here, and it seems that certain editors are intent on trying to escalate by trolling. I agree, it all has to stop. I will put a stop to the rest at a later date in another venue. Russavia ლ(ಠ益ಠლ) 19:52, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
SPI help
I have recently discovered a possible sock of user:TheREALCableGuy and did what I think is appropriate on the Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/TheREALCableGuy page. I considered contacting user:Sven Manguard and user:DeltaQuad for help, but they both appear to be inactive presently. Unlike the previous cases where the socks were IPs and it was obvious that they were socks of cable guy, this case is suspicious, but I don't have concrete proof. user:Drmies advised me to place a checkuser request on the investigation page, which I have done. I do not know if I've done everything properly, as I am just an editor and haven't been involved in this sort of thing before. I am only trying to do the right thing and I would appreciate any help or guidance you could give me. If you can not, perhaps you could refer me to someone who could. Thanks. Sore bluto (talk) 22:15, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
Help us develop better software!
Thanks to all of you for commenting on the NOINDEX RfC :). It's always great to be able to field questions like these to the community; it's genuinely the highlight of my work! The NOINDEX idea sprung from our New Page Triage discussion; we're developing a new patrolling interface for new articles, and we want your input like never before :). So if you haven't already seen it, please go there, take a look at the screenshots and mockups and ideas, and add any comments or suggestions you might have to the talkpage. Thanks! Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 16:44, 30 March 2012 (UTC)
Next steps for WP:AE#Nagorno-Karabakh
There seems to be reluctance for admins or uninvolved editors to provide more input at WP:AE#Nagorno-Karabakh. I've reviewed the history of the Nagorno-Karabakh article since October, 2011 and made some findings.
- 18 editors made substantive changes to the article (not wording or style fixes)
- Out of this 18, 10 look to be 'sockish' by my own intuition. Evidence not usually strong enough to take to SPI, though. Not enough for a WP:DUCK block.
- Out of the 10 'sockish' editors, three are currently blocked as socks (Gorzaim, Vandorenfm and Szeget).
One of the ideas you gave in the 'Result' section of this AE was to encourage admins to issue DUCK blocks (if I read you correctly). It looks to me that this would not suffice. I'd favor remedies that exclude *all* the sockish editors from participating at Nagorno-Karabakh, however that is achieved. I am somewhat concerned by long-term AA SPAs but the ones who are clearly not socks I find to be less alarming. (One of them identifies with the Armenian side, has 1,500 edits, and has been around since 2004). There is one guy who supports the Azeri side and has 75,000 edits though his history is not unblemished. Having him continue to participate seems OK to me. Unless it turns out that even the veterans misbehave.
How would you feel about the suggestion about a minimum requirement of 500 edits for participating at Nagorno-Karabakh? This requirement would exclude all the editors I consider sockish and it would take away the incentive for either side to create more socks.
The requirement for a minimum number of edits could be tweaked. Gatoclass proposed '500 mainspace edits outside the topic area' which is also reasonable, but harder to count quickly. That rule and the simpler rule of 500 total edits would both exclude *all* the sockish editors I found. 1000 edits would also work as a criterion, though it would exclude one editor in my sample who made only style fixes.
If you prefer not to discuss the issue here, or at all, you could move this to my talk page or delete it.
If the idea of 500 edits attracts any support, I am thinking that a post at WP:AN asking for comments might be appropriate. A post at AN sometimes gets useful feedback since it exposes the idea to people totally unconnected to the topic area. Thanks, EdJohnston (talk) 17:01, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
- Yeah, I really should have taken another look at this earlier. Regarding the edit count requirement: I think that could potentially work, and we can also add a minimum age requirement. To somewhat lessen the collateral damage, rather than banning them from the article altogether, we could put the article under an 1RR and make reverts of their edits exempt from the usual revert rules (3RR included, perhaps?). This way uncontroversial edits can still be made. T. Canens (talk) 10:16, 23 March 2012 (UTC)
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User:Ehud Lesar was edit warring on the Nagorno-Karabakh page, and it did not take too long to establish a connection between Ehud and User:AdilBaguirov, and then between User:AdilBaguirov and User:Grandmaster—who seems to be his protector and promoter (meat-mentor?) [23]. [24]. All this points to a serious issue the ArbCom should deal—User:Grandmaster and his off-wiki operation known as 26 Baku Commissars. In other words, similarly to RuWiki, most Azerbaijani editors in English wiki as well are likely to be sock/meatpuppets managed by Grandmaster. This sock/meat farm is utilized to push edit war and promote highly tendentious content in AA2. To appreciate the true scope and structure of this operation, take a closer look at the article written by Grandmaster's friend User:AdilBaguirov in azer.com [25]. In this conspiratorial hate pamphlet called Wikipedia.org: Savvy Tool for Making Azerbaijan Known to the World, User:AdilBaguirov argues that the world’s encyclopedias are supposedly controlled by Armenians who conspired to methodically distort every notion about Azerbaijan and Azerbaijanis. To counter that “deplorable state of affairs,” User:AdilBaguirov calls on Azerbaijanis to use Wikipedia as a tool (his word in the title) to take the ethnic war against Armenians deep into their intellectual domain. Here are some excerpts from the text:
More about User:AdilBaguirov and his ethno-racist background can be found here: [26]. Here it is also worth mentioning that in real life User:AdilBaguirov is a US-based Azerbaijani nationalist lobbyist who heads U.S. Azeris Network (USAN), www.usazeris.org. One of USAN’s main goals of is to harass random Americans of purportedly Armenian origin, especially those holding public office. USAN’s most recent target was Mr. Edward Semonian Jr. [27], who ran for the office of Circuit Court Clerk, Alexandria. USAN targeted Semonian simply because of his Armenian heritage [28]. The case of USAN’s harassment of Semonian is the real-life facet of Grandmaster’s and his meats’ main methodology in Wikipedia regarding academic sources: their racist argument is that if someone is suspected to have Armenian blood, family members or ancestry, he or she is to be automatically excluded from Wikipedia as a credible source. Just recently Grandmaster opposed to world-class academic reference the book called "The Caucasian Knot" [29] which is endorsed by Thomas de Waal, WP's top source on Nagorno-Karabakh, simply because he suspected Armenian heritage. Grandmaster’s meat-pals from RusWiki's ArbCom decision User:Brandmeister, User:Quantum and User:Tuscumbia all came under sanctions for their racist approach to WP:NPOV, e.g. [30], [31]. The article by User:AdilBaguirov heralded the emergence of an Azerbaijani off-wiki coordination and vote-staking project known “Baku’s 26 Commissars.” The project was managed by User:AdilBaguirov’s close friend User:Grandmaster. Full information about this operation can be found in an article on this page in RuWiki [32]. In particular, the article said:
The ArbCom found [33] that User:Grandmaster was the head of the cabal who coordinated edit war operations of a large number of Azerbaijani editors and organized vote-stacking during ArbCom elections [34]. Grandmaster evidently uses off-wiki coordination on the pages of English wiki as well: take a look at this curious exchange - [35], [36], which are requests of off-wiki communication between Grandmaster and User:Mursel, a suspected sock of User:Tuscumbia. A task of Grandmaster’s meat project is to create a series of articles with bogus content based entirely on propaganda material published in Azerbaijan, a country where the president-for-life Ilham Aliyev manages his oil dictatorship by whipping up ethnic hatred. Take a look at this curious series of articles whose content derives almost exclusively from Azerbaijani nationalist sources in crude violation of WP:NPOV: Guba mass grave, Malibeyli and Gushchular Massacre, Garadaghly Massacre. One of such article, Agdaban Massacre, was recently deleted because of violation of WP:NPOV. These articles were created or edited by the same group of users who were mentioned in RuWiki’s ArbCom investigation: User:Interfase, User:Brandmeister, User:Tuscumbia, User:Quantum666. Winterbliss (talk) 02:46, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
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- Grandmaster, I see that your idea has something in common with that of T. Canens (near the top of this thread). Shall we make a new 1RR for AA that references total edits and possibly the age of the account? Here are the details:
- Anyone can revert someone with less than 500 edits (or an IP) without being considered to break the 1RR, though they are still subject to the normal edit warring policy.
- All IP editors, or those with fewer than 500 edits, are limited to a strict 1RR with no exceptions.
- This would apply to all articles on Wikipedia wherever the issue being reverted is something to do with the AA dispute.
- We can require that an account *both* have 500 edits *and* have existed for three months to be free of this rule.
- Grandmaster, I see that your idea has something in common with that of T. Canens (near the top of this thread). Shall we make a new 1RR for AA that references total edits and possibly the age of the account? Here are the details:
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- I think we can trial this on this one article to see if it's effective. I'm not really convinced that we need to roll this out to the entire topic area...yet. T. Canens (talk) 07:20, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, I think this remedy should be tested on one article, and if effective, it could be applied to other articles if needed. Grandmaster 08:40, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
- I think we can trial this on this one article to see if it's effective. I'm not really convinced that we need to roll this out to the entire topic area...yet. T. Canens (talk) 07:20, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
- I find such thoughts perplexing and un-WPedian. I am reading Grandmaster's comments and he is saying that the times have changed and SPIs are no longer relevant and hence new, more stringent measures against new users should be applied. I find this highly dubious. The article already has a protection and administrators can impose all kind of measures against those who is not compliant with WP. As already happened, the article can be placed on the lock until differences are resolved. Many would agree that the new measures feed into a wider tendency to make WP increasingly more restricted, shredding the idea of a free encyclopedia into dust. This step would unjustifiably limit access to knowledgeable editors who are too busy to edit frequently, and other new folks. I have also read about Grandmaster's real meat shop in ruswiki and his alleged meat shop in anglowiki and that alarms me. And then see his new AE report filed on [User:Oliveriki] [38]. It seems that groundless SPIs filed in the recent past by Grandmaster and his friends from ruswiki are now being replaced with equally groundless AE complaints (since the baseless foul-faith SPIs proved to be ineffective to discredit [Grandmaster's] opponents?). I concur that Grandmaster is a user way too controversial to suggest how to restrict access to AA2 articles to other users. Dehr (talk) 19:09, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
- There's no point in protecting the article now. Golbez protected it a few times, but every time the protection was removed the new accounts resumed edit warring. At present those new accounts forced the version of the banned user into the article without any consensus with established editors (and with misleading edit summary as well: [39]), so protection will only serve the interests of the banned user. I don't consider all the new accounts agreeing among themselves to be a consensus, it is just an imitation of it, because according to the rules all those accounts should be treated as one. WP:BAN holds that "new accounts which engage in the same behavior as a banned editor or blocked account in the same context, and who appear to be editing Wikipedia solely for that purpose, are subject to the remedies applied to the editor whose behavior they are imitating". [40] I counted, there 7 accounts at Nagorno-Karabakh supporting restoration of edits of the banned user:
- Winterbliss (talk · contribs)
- Dehr (talk · contribs)
- Zimmarod (talk · contribs)
- Sprutt (talk · contribs)
- Nocturnal781 (talk · contribs)
- Oliveriki (talk · contribs)
- Hablabar (talk · contribs)
- Except for Oliveriki, all of them are new. Many of them have less than 100 edits, some only a couple of dozen. Oliveriki is a sleeper account with only 13 edits, it only comes to life when there's a need to revert something for Xebulon. I would not be surprised if another dozen of such accounts joined them. One must be a very naive person to believe that all those new accounts appeared at that page by coincidence and discovered the edits of the banned user searching through the history of the article. What is the point for other editors to be there, if this growing army of new accounts will overwhelm them and have the article their way? This is why frustration of Golbez is understandable, there's no way for him and other regular editors to prevent the article from turning into a mess. Grandmaster 21:12, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
- Also note canvassing by Dehr: [41] Not the first time, he was even warned by others not to do so: [42] Grandmaster 21:24, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
- I haven't edited of late in the "frozen conflict zone" areas (Transnistria, South Ossetia, Nagorno-Karabakh,...) for a while, however, that sphere of geopolitics was my first active involvement in WP and I still follow developments closely. I definitely agree that limiting participation to established editors would be a positive step toward establishing and maintaining some semblance of order. Of course, a bot can do edits, so it would probably need to be some combination of edits as well as editorial longevity to work as intended. This might be perceived as unfair to fresh recruits, however, these conflicts have all been going on for quite a long time now, anyone with half an interest in the topic following it for enough time to have become reasonably informed would pass any bar set for edits and how long they've been a WP editor. And the conflicts will still be there tomorrow, meaning newbies who wish to participate eventually can get their WP:FEET wet in the meantime. VєсrumЬа ►TALK 21:34, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
I totally agree that imposing article-wide restrictions is unfair to new users. There could be new users who are more knowledgeable and better-behaving than older accounts. Grandmaster tries to discredit new users inventing implausible excuses like "There's no point in protecting the article now" and the like. SPIs are designed to detect socks, they were run and no socks were detected. Other measures to identify meats or socks proved the same. So, relax and assume good faith. But there are accounts that should be subjected to scrutiny in the first place - Grandmaster’s meatpuppets with identical names in ru and en wikis. Their access to editing should be restricted. It is well known User:Grandmaster is a proven and convicted meat-puppeteer. His farm of meatpuppets was discovered and exposed in RusWiki and is known as 26 Baku Commissars [43]. The ArbCom in RusWiki found that User:Grandmaster was the head of a cabal which coordinated edit warring of a large number of Azerbaijani editors and organized vote-stacking during ArbCom elections [44]. Only a blind cannot see that some or most Azerbaijani editors in English wiki too are likely to be meatpuppets managed by Grandmaster. Some of these suspected meatpuppets were so confident of their ability to evade detection that they never bothered to change their user names in English wiki. These are:
Most of other Azerbaijani users may be meatpuppets who changed their user names to evade detection and identification. These suspicious accounts include User:Angel670, User:NovaSkola, User:Dighapet, User:Mursel (suspected sock of User:Tuscumbia at least per WP:DUCK), User:Lava22T (a sleeper?), and others. These accounts should undergo cross-wiki SPIs for IP identification between Ruswiki and English wiki. I would modify Grandmaster's statement "There's no point in protecting the article now" into "There was no point in protecting the article all this time" because all this time the article was under the siege of Grandmaster's suspected meatpuppets who were tasked to prevent development. Winterbliss (talk) 18:24, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
Latest version of 500-edit proposal
Here is the latest version of my proposal.
- The Nagorno-Karabakh article would be placed on seniority restriction, which would be a modified 1RR restriction.
- The authority for this is WP:AC/DS under the WP:ARBAA2 decision
- An established account is one that has made 500 article edits *and* has existed for at least three months.
- 'Low seniority accounts' are accounts that don't meet those requirements
- All low seniority accounts and all IPs are under a plain 1RR per day with no exceptions
- Established accounts can revert edits by IPs or low-seniority accounts without breaking the 1RR, but are still subject to the general edit warring policy.
A requirement of 500 article edits is similar to what is needed to get approval for WP:AWB. It is accepted that people need to be experienced to use AWB. My proposal would give an advantage to experienced editors when working the Nagorno-Karabakh article, while still allowing all editors to make uncontroversial improvements. The above version of the 500-edit proposal is what I'm intending to post in the AE thread. EdJohnston (talk) 23:22, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
- Ican see no reason to justify making such an arbitrary and fundamental change to editing procedures. Really, your "the authority for this" language sounds like something out of a totalitarian dictatorship governed by a shadowy and all-powerful "The Committee" whose commands must be obeyed without question. The Committee wants two plus two to equal five so The Committee says two plus two equals five, so two plus two does equal five because The Committee says it does. What actual content problem exists on this one article, and this one article alone, that needs this extremist solution to cure it? We KNOW that this one article solution will soon expand to become 10 articles, which will soon be 100 articles, then 1000, and will eventually be Wikipedia wide, and the 500-article edits requirement will be extended to 1000-edits and then to 2000-edits, and then probably into the size of the edits. The fact that you are using AA2 to validate this proposal PROVES it will expand beyond the original limits - exactly like AA2 itself did with its ever expanding range. Why is this proposal evolving on an editor's talk page? Is it because it is so extreme that to discuss it in the open could provoke an immediate dismissal of it? Why was the important point I mentioned earlier not considered: that this sanction would give carte-blanche approval for any editor with more than 500 edits to remove from Wikipedia articles the edits of any editor with under 500 edits, regardless of what those edits might be. Why should any new editor be given these automatic sanctions for no reason, why should their edits be removed without any consideration of their content? If there is a genuine problem with "low seniority accounts" then that problem can't be on just one article, so any solution surely has to be Wikipedia wide, and be fit to function Wikipedia wide. Meowy 02:34, 30 March 2012 (UTC)
- Would it be less dictatorial just to put Nagorno-Karabakh under full protection? At least one commenter at AE said that protection was a terrible idea because it would stop article development. The proposal here is intended to be more editor-friendly. Apologies to T. Canens for abusing his talk page; this whole thread should probably be on my own page. If everybody hates this idea it will surely not be adopted. AA is an unpleasant area for admins to work in and (I assume) for many of the participants. This is an attempt to make it better. There are just not enough admins to give all disputes in AA the full attention they deserve. Full scrutiny by admins of all the edits by newcomers is just not practical. Under this proposal, experienced editors get an extra edge in reviewing the work of newcomers. EdJohnston (talk) 02:50, 30 March 2012 (UTC)
- EdJohnston's proposal is well intentioned but effects of his suggestion will likely be counterproductive. This is because the new division of accounts by "seniority" will actually stimulate edit wars - higher seniority accounts (the designated good guys) will easily misinterpret the new rules as a carte-blanche for removing the edits of lower seniority accounts (designated bad guys) regardless of the quality of contributions. Well, what happens next, gentlemen? This will stimulate more needless AE complaints and more administrator involvement. Then the administrators will get really mad, and will raise the edit count requirement to become "higher seniority" in order to further limit participation in the article to wash their hands of this trouble. Lastly, the article will simply be forever locked. This fate will gradually spread to ALL more or less controversial subjects in WP - a recipe of WP's slow and agonizing death. And as I argued all this time, there is yet another problem: in AA2 we deal with a well defined group of "higher seniority" problematic accounts that come from Grandmaster's legacy meat farm in Ruwiki. If this issue did not exist, EdJohnston's suggestion would be a tad less concerning. Winterbliss (talk) 03:55, 30 March 2012 (UTC)
- I have warned User:Dehr about canvassing by notifying people of this discussion who tend to be on his side of the dispute. He is invited to extend his notification list to include users who favor Azerbaijan. EdJohnston (talk) 03:58, 30 March 2012 (UTC)
- Does canvasing guidelines apply when it is for something taking place on an editor's personal talk page? Anyway, as canvassing goes, it was rather unsuccessful - most of those who were informed haven't actually edited anything for ages! Meowy 20:07, 30 March 2012 (UTC)
- I support your proposal, and I think the legitimate new editors have no reason for concern. If their edits are not controversial, they will remain, if they are, they need to be discussed and get consensus at talk. If the edits by the new account have some merit, they will gain support of the established users from one of the sides or third party contributors, or they can resolve the dispute by means prescribed by WP:DR. The new good faith editor can accumulate 500 edits pretty quick. What we have at present at NK page is that a bunch of recent accounts tries to force the edits of the banned user by edit warring. I counted there 7 new accounts all supporting the banned user! And only one has more than 500 edits, while many have only a couple of dozen. The age limit would prevent throwaway accounts from popping out of nowhere and starting an edit war and will actually encourage discussion, because edit warring would be made pointless. Full protection was imposed a few times by Golbez, but it gave no result. As soon as protection was removed, the new accounts resumed edit warring. Leaving it be as it is means that those who manage to bring more new accounts to force their edits win, and that's not how Wikipedia is supposed to work. The age restriction will reduce sock and meat puppetry, which was a serious concern in this article for years. And I don't think that there could be any serious objections to this. One objection is that it targets only new users, while the abuse by established accounts is not covered, but it is not so. The established accounts are covered by AA2 restrictions, and those who stick to just one account can always be sanctioned under the existing remedy. But those who use new accounts to evade sanctions are not covered by AA2 sanctions, sanctions only work if the sanctioned account continues to edit as the same user. With the age limit, if someone is abusing multiple accounts, it will be hard for him to accumulate 500 article edits for every sock or meat account. Also, with all due respect, at least one of those who object has a history of multiple account policy violation. Therefore I suggest that you take your proposal to WP:AE or another appropriate venue, where it could be discussed with participation of the wider wiki community, because the situation in Nagorno-Karabakh article is intolerable and reached to a point that an admin who tried to hold it together for many years gave up and quit. Grandmaster 09:52, 30 March 2012 (UTC)
- That "admin who tried to hold it together" (Golbez) summed things up nicely when he wrote "Do any of you actually care WHAT is in the article, or just who puts it there?" Your advocacy for this draconian proposal tells me that you only care about "who puts it there". Meowy 20:14, 30 March 2012 (UTC)
- I have warned User:Dehr about canvassing by notifying people of this discussion who tend to be on his side of the dispute. He is invited to extend his notification list to include users who favor Azerbaijan. EdJohnston (talk) 03:58, 30 March 2012 (UTC)
- EdJohnston's proposal is well intentioned but effects of his suggestion will likely be counterproductive. This is because the new division of accounts by "seniority" will actually stimulate edit wars - higher seniority accounts (the designated good guys) will easily misinterpret the new rules as a carte-blanche for removing the edits of lower seniority accounts (designated bad guys) regardless of the quality of contributions. Well, what happens next, gentlemen? This will stimulate more needless AE complaints and more administrator involvement. Then the administrators will get really mad, and will raise the edit count requirement to become "higher seniority" in order to further limit participation in the article to wash their hands of this trouble. Lastly, the article will simply be forever locked. This fate will gradually spread to ALL more or less controversial subjects in WP - a recipe of WP's slow and agonizing death. And as I argued all this time, there is yet another problem: in AA2 we deal with a well defined group of "higher seniority" problematic accounts that come from Grandmaster's legacy meat farm in Ruwiki. If this issue did not exist, EdJohnston's suggestion would be a tad less concerning. Winterbliss (talk) 03:55, 30 March 2012 (UTC)
- Would it be less dictatorial just to put Nagorno-Karabakh under full protection? At least one commenter at AE said that protection was a terrible idea because it would stop article development. The proposal here is intended to be more editor-friendly. Apologies to T. Canens for abusing his talk page; this whole thread should probably be on my own page. If everybody hates this idea it will surely not be adopted. AA is an unpleasant area for admins to work in and (I assume) for many of the participants. This is an attempt to make it better. There are just not enough admins to give all disputes in AA the full attention they deserve. Full scrutiny by admins of all the edits by newcomers is just not practical. Under this proposal, experienced editors get an extra edge in reviewing the work of newcomers. EdJohnston (talk) 02:50, 30 March 2012 (UTC)
500-edit proposal now at AE
- See Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Statement by EdJohnston. Please continue the discussion in the AE thread. It should not be necessary to make further statements here. Let's give Tim a break. Thank you, EdJohnston (talk) 19:09, 30 March 2012 (UTC)
Question
I always wanted to ask administrators like you of you are a salaried employee of WP or a volunteer or a user like me but promoted to the rank of administrator? Will be glad to receive an answer. Thanks in advance for sharing this information. Winterbliss (talk) 03:46, 31 March 2012 (UTC)
AE case
I left a comment.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 04:34, 31 March 2012 (UTC)
Thank you
You helped me by putting the correct template on that courtesy blanked page. This is one of the many cases where I think in some imagined wonderful future, there will be an easier way. I don't know all the templates, and I don't want to know them. It's a shame that people need to know such things.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 11:29, 31 March 2012 (UTC)
- I've made a modification to allow closing comments to be retained on courtesy blacked XfDs. I hope this will be a useful feature. It seems to me to be appropriate in this case, but if it isn't, revert away... :) Geometry guy 23:34, 31 March 2012 (UTC)