User talk:Struthious Bandersnatch

This user is aware of the discretionary sanction topic area(s): post-1932 politics of the United States and closely related people the English Wikipedia article titles policy and Wikipedia:Manual of Style they should not be given alerts for those areas.

Category:Article-specific Wikipedia tables has been nominated for renaming

Category:Article-specific Wikipedia tables has been nominated for renaming. A discussion is taking place to decide whether this proposal complies with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. —⁠andrybak (talk) 18:32, 16 May 2020 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of International Congress on Tuberculosis

The article International Congress on Tuberculosis has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern:

It existed, but didn't meet WP:NOTABILITY.

While all constructive contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, pages may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{proposed deletion/dated}} notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the page to address the issues raised. Removing {{proposed deletion/dated}} will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. In particular, the speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. Boleyn (talk) 16:11, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

Nomination for deletion of Template:FDA CDRH reg list DB search link

Template:FDA CDRH reg list DB search link has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for discussion page. Tom (LT) (talk) 02:46, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

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Your complaint is fully wrong at Edit warring

(Hangsun.576 (talk) 09:36, 23 August 2020 (UTC))

Enough

What is up with your obsession with me and my edits? I did not violate the topic ban (which itself was unwarranted), and you know it. If you want to complain about someone who is editing with a clear agenda, and is abusive to other editors, I can offer plenty of suggestions. Chartreuse&Puce (talk) 22:27, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

​I notice that there's a new edit warring warning on your talk page from yet another editor who has had to deal with you. This thing where you completely ignore the rules, then protest with doe-eyed innocence that you've got no idea what you did wrong and are really just being martyred for your agenda... it does not seem to be working so well for you. --▸₷truthious Ⓑandersnatch◂ 23:21, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

...Aaaand for posterity's sake, that user was indefinitely blocked for the edit warring soon thereafter. --▸₷truthious Ⓑandersnatch◂ 07:36, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

WP:BRD

Hi. Thanks for not edit-warring. You're absolutely correct, BRD says, "While discussing the disputed content, neither editors should revert or change the content being discussed until a compromise or consensus is reached." The exact policy I should have referenced is WP:BURDEN. Sorry about the wrong attribution.Onel5969 ^{TT me} 15:02, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

Li-Meng Yan

Where is Yan in the video you are determined to include? Can you give me a timestamp? In response to your edit summary, we can only consider it a self-published source if she was clearly the publisher. Although I'm not sure if you were genuinely arguing that it is her channel/she uploaded the video. CowHouse (talk) 14:32, 17 September 2020 (UTC)

@CowHouse: The video is already included in the article content—In interviews, initially in January 2020 with "LuDe Media" (「路德社」), owned by exiled Chinese businessman Guo Wengui...—you just seem to be intent on eliding the fact that it's a Youtube video. Your further concept that Wikipedia reliable sourcing guidelines mean that the existence of coverage in non-RS is "not noteworthy" and that hence you have carte blanche to delete mention of Yan's Daily Mail interview from the content of the article—that concept is also not valid, that's not what sourcing policies and guidelines mean and notability policy (even if there were some policy or guideline that Daily Mail interviews are inherently non-notable, which there isn't) is about topics of articles, not the facts within them. WP:WEIGHT is the closest thing that would govern inclusion of facts in an article and if that were applied here it would be arguing that two words about an interview are undue weight in the article of a person whose notability, at the point of creation of the article at least, was based on publicizing her opinions in such interviews.

The whole salient thing here is that Yan, a scientist with the access and capacity to publish things in international peer-reviewed publications, broke her story in a self-published Youtube channel (self-published by LuDe Media, not Yan, Youtube serving the role of a vanity press) and then publicized that story in a series of questionably reliable or non-reliable news sources. Applying your personal "only the existence of noteworthy coverage must be mentioned" principle to the article is making a quack seem more legitimate than she actually is. (And to be clear it's the content of the article—the undisputed facts—I really care about here, not the refs, although the LuDe Media one in particular cost me a great deal of time to hunt down as I have only a rudimentary command of written Chinese.) --▸₷truthious Ⓑandersnatch◂ 00:29, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

If you watch the YouTube video you cited, you will notice that Yan is not in it. If I am wrong, please provide a timestamp of her appearance in the video.

You also said she broke her story in a self-published Youtube channel (self-published by LuDe Media, not Yan, Youtube serving the role of a vanity press). According to WP:BLPSPS: "Never use self-published sources [...] as sources of material about a living person, unless written or published by the subject of the article."

Regarding the Daily Mail, you initially added that she was interviewed with the Daily Mail without providing any source mentioning this. You then linked directly to the Daily Mail, which is a WP:DEPRECATED source and not appropriate in a WP:BLP. Your third and final attempt cited a source which did not say she was interviewed by the Daily Mail, but instead mentioned that the Daily Mail reported on her Fox News interview. So far, you have either provided no source, a deprecated source, or a source which does not mention that she was interviewed with the Daily Mail. CowHouse (talk) 04:23, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

@CowHouse: Aargh, I have definitely watched at least one LuDe Media video in which Yan appears but I have clearly mixed something up because you're right that she does not appear in the January 19 video and I can't confirm whether she's even mentioned by name in it. So all we've got is the Deutsche Welle article saying that she "通过流" LuDe some time in January, which doesn't mention Youtube, and hence you were right to keep the reference to the January 19 video out of the article. I apologize profusely and I'm horrified by the possibility you watched that entire 80-minute video to no avail. --▸₷truthious Ⓑandersnatch◂ 05:47, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

Don't worry, I didn't watch the entire 80-minute video. I just looked at the progress bar preview. By the way, you will be pleased to know a recent article in Vox mentions that Yan was interviewed in the Daily Mail so feel free to add it to Yan's page (without worrying that I will undo it again). CowHouse (talk) 18:20, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

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September 2020

You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war according to the reverts you have made on Rest in peace; that means that you are repeatedly changing content back to how you think it should be, when you have seen that other editors disagree. Users are expected to collaborate with others, to avoid editing disruptively, and to try to reach a consensus, rather than repeatedly undoing other users' edits once it is known that there is a disagreement.

Points to note:

1. Edit warring is disruptive regardless of how many reverts you have made;
2. Do not edit war even if you believe you are right.

If you find yourself in an editing dispute, use the article's talk page to discuss controversial changes and work towards a version that represents consensus among editors. You can post a request for help at an appropriate noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, it may be appropriate to request temporary page protection. If you engage in an edit war, you may be blocked from editing. Ivar the Boneful (talk) 09:36, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

To be clear here, on the talk page of the article in question I have invited Ivar the Boneful to report me to WP:AN3 if he actually has any evidence of edit warring. We will see if he or she does. --▸₷truthious Ⓑandersnatch◂ 14:26, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

Notice of edit warring noticeboard discussion

Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a discussion involving you at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring regarding a possible violation of Wikipedia's policy on edit warring. The thread is Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring#User:Struthious_Bandersnatch reported by User:Ivar the Boneful (Result: ). Thank you. Ivar the Boneful (talk) 10:02, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

Date formats

When you add citations, as you did to Coronavirus disease 2019, please try to use the format used in the article, or at least don't specify the |df= parameter which overrides the format set in the article by the {{Use dmy dates}} template at the top of the page. There's more detail at Help:Citation Style 1 #Auto-formatting citation template dates. Thanks --RexxS (talk) 12:23, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

Sure RexxS, will do. Thank you for fixing my contribution in that article. --▸₷truthious Ⓑandersnatch◂ 14:56, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

No problem. They changed the handling of formatted dates in CS1 templates a little while ago, in order to read the {{Use dmy dates}} & {{Use mdy dates}} templates, and so we generally don't need the |df= parameter any more (other than in rare cases). Cheers --RexxS (talk) 15:19, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

The breonna taylor search warrant was not a no knock warrant, revert and cease edit warring 'The warrant was not served as a no-knock warrant,' Kentucky AG says

The breonna taylor search warrant was not a no knock warrant,see Wikipedia:Verifiability, not truth

revert and cease edit warring

'The warrant was not served as a no-knock warrant,' Kentucky AG says https://www.whas11.com/article/news/investigations/breonna-taylor-case/breonna-taylor-decision-no-knock-warrant-louisville-officers-announced-attorney-general/417-7dd8174f-53f1-4af6-8baf-c36eb4bd7cc1

it is off the breonna taylor page itself for a reason.

Sorry abt the dead links

Not sure what happened that two of the links that I posted went 404.

It was super helpful that you posted those links to the other WP articles.

They all fail to reflect the minority POV in the slightest which obv exists.

For instance If we claim that the criminal justice system is white-supremacist, why is it that Asian Americans, Indian Americans, and Nigerian Americans are incarcerated at vastly lower rates than white Americans? This is a funny sort of white supremacy. Even Jewish Americans are incarcerated less than gentile whites. I think it's fair to say that your average white supremacist disapproves of Jews. And yet, these alleged white supremacists incarcerate gentiles at vastly higher rates than Jews. None of this is addressed in those articles. None of this is explained, beyond hand-waving and ad hominems. "Those are racist dogwhistles". "The model minority myth is white supremacist". "Only fascists talk about black-on-black crime", ad nauseam. These types of statements do not amount to counterarguments: they are simply arbitrary offensive classifications, intended to silence and oppress discourse. Any serious historian will recognize these for the silencing orthodoxy tactics they are, common to suppressive regimes, doctrines, and religions throughout time and space. They are intended to crush real diversity and permanently exile the culture of robust criticism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:46:C801:B1F0:F5BB:3B86:E159:625A (talk) 06:22, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

For instance I noticed this study was missing even though it is more current than much of the material? Do White Law Enforcement Officers Target Minority Suspects? To answer this question, the authors construct a data set of all confirmed uses of lethal force by police officers in the United States in 2014 and 2015. They find that although minority suspects are disproportionately killed by police, white officers appear to be no more likely to use lethal force against minorities than nonwhite officers.

It is RS and clearly says non white officers are just as likely to use lethal force against minorities as white officers. https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/puar.12956

A NPOV WP includes such material. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:46:C801:B1F0:F5BB:3B86:E159:625A (talk) 06:36, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

Wikipedia is WP:NOTSOCIALMEDIA. Please hold discussions about specific articles on their respective talk pages and general discussions about the entire encyclopedia or sections of it on pages and talk pages intended for that purpose under the Wikipedia: namespace, such as the Teahouse, the Village pump, and the many "discussions and collaborations" pages linked to from the Wikipedia:Community portal which is in the left-hand menu, rather than here on my user talk page. --▸₷truthious Ⓑandersnatch◂ 06:58, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

The WP is about collaboration, I am merely here collaborating. SO very helpful again. We will be holding them there too. In addition, I will be working on the pages regarding race and socio economics which may be of some interest to you as well. The US is home to more successful poc and women than any country in the history of earth. They enjoy more freedom and have achieved greater economic success than anywhere else in this history of earth. They're in positions of authority in everything from the justive system to billion dollar hedge funds to hospitals. In particular several US black zip codes are the wealthiest black zip codes or like on earth. I'm going to need some of that systemic racism material to balance this stuff out. TYIA — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:46:C801:B1F0:DDB:D4EE:D223:5F4B (talk) 09:40, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

Important Notice

This is a standard message to notify contributors about an administrative ruling in effect. It does not imply that there are any issues with your contributions to date.

You have shown interest in post-1932 politics of the United States and closely related people. Due to past disruption in this topic area, a more stringent set of rules called discretionary sanctions is in effect. Any administrator may impose sanctions on editors who do not strictly follow Wikipedia's policies, or the page-specific restrictions, when making edits related to the topic.

For additional information, please see the guidance on discretionary sanctions and the Arbitration Committee's decision here. If you have any questions, or any doubts regarding what edits are appropriate, you are welcome to discuss them with me or any other editor.

Doug Weller talk 15:44, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

Ah, if you look at my logs I have delivered this alert to other editors, so I already count as Aware™. But thank you for the notice anyways. I believe I was able to get a disruptive user blocked with less red tape because of your proactive delivery of these alerts, Doug Weller, so thank you for all the work you do too. --▸₷truthious Ⓑandersnatch◂ 15:57, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

Sorry about that. I use Twinkle and it normally informs me. I've got {{Ds/aware}} at the top of my talk page. Glad to see my work today has helped you! Doug Weller talk 16:03, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Colons and asterisks

Thanks for trying to improve Wikipedia:Colons and asterisks, but the nutshell needs to be as concise as possible. In addition, your formula "if you are responding to a comment beginning with a colon (:), begin your own comment with at least one colon." fails because, for example, replying to :*:: with ::::* fits your formula, but causes the "unwinding" from the second level onwards. Also there is absolutely no problem with having a line composed entirely of colons or asterisks, as the Wikimedia software ignores them and many editors use that to separate their post from the one above in the wikitext while having no effect on the rendered html. --RexxS (talk) 16:40, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

@RexxS: Ah, you're right, I misread something in the main MOS guideline about lists. The essay presents lots of technical details about HTML and other things that I think will bewilder non-technical editors, so I was trying to distill it into practical rules and contextually imply what accessibility is.

Ever since I started using MediaWiki back in the aughts I've been astounded and confounded by the choice to use semantic-type <dl><dd></dd></dl> markup for this stuff. --▸₷truthious Ⓑandersnatch◂ 17:51, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

...oh, wait, duh—non-technical editors are probably using one of the visual editors anyways and there's no use in trying to explain anything about colons or asterisks to them. ::facepalm:: I give up ▸₷truthious Ⓑandersnatch◂ 18:01, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

The misuse of definition lists to create indents dates back to the 1990s when designers were just looking for a simple means of indenting text, long before CSS, semantic markup and screen readers were considered. Sadly, the early implementations of the MediaWiki software used the same trick and it became so ingrained that we've never been able to kick the habit on Wikipedia. One day, maybe ... --RexxS (talk) 22:20, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

​I was actually a software engineer working on web-based systems at that time, back in the ol' nineteen-hunnerts... CSS1 was a W3C recommendation in 1996 and already partly implemented in IE3 that year, with adjustable margins and padding for paragraphs, plus there were XSLT stylesheets too by 1998. But development on MediaWiki doesn't seem to have started until 2001. Very short-sighted. Alas, I weep, for the majestic and splendid commenting systems that might have been.

But they've accomplished so much, I can't really complain. --▸₷truthious Ⓑandersnatch◂ 23:30, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

Righteous

<insert Barnstar of Justice here>--Jorm (talk) 01:49, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

Amen. --JBL (talk) 14:59, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

2020 United States racial unrest ‎

Hello Struthios, I noticed you reverted my edit to the 2020 United States racial unrest article. Honestly, after reviewing it again, I concur with your decision, as removing it was hasty and premature. If you wish to expand it, however, I'd like to support you, but unfortunately am too busy to really do so. However, I am planning on copyediting the section (pretty much to remove some flowery language and add some more references to the 'citation needed' areas). This is just to let you know, since you raised the possibility of expanding the section, which again I'd like to do if not for the (unfortunate) lack of time. Adios, Freezingwedge (talk) 18:00, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

Jimbo's talkpage

The pseudo-medical commentary needs to stop. Acroterion (talk) 21:48, 24 October 2020 (UTC)

​No problem—I shan't continue even if the feigned medical problem does. --‿Ꞅtruthious 𝔹andersnatch ͡ |℡| 21:50, 24 October 2020 (UTC)

No, you shan't, not even here. Acroterion (talk)

@Acroterion: I've noticed the comment I'm assuming you're referring to as pseudo-medical at WP:JIMBOTALK is still there.

I acceded to your request above because I was done with the conversation in that section, but strangely you didn't seem to to want to take an immediate “yes” for an answer, and you didn't explain why you were making the request in the first place.

My best guess would be that it's something like a concern about the possibility of someone being misinformed about medical information. If I'd thought the comment was going to be taken as serious medical advice, instead of just being called “nonsense” like the preceding comment laying out part of the FAST (stroke) protocol, I would not have made it.

If you really think I've done something dangerous I would urge you to oversight or even just regular-delete the whole conversation, or even selectively remove my comments, even the ones harshly critical of the Biden hoax stuff if you really want to. But since you haven't done that, maybe there's a different issue?

I've glanced at your edit history and I can see that you deal with annoying people all day, which I sympathize with. But I would like to understand why you came to my talk page to write these imperative unexplained threatening things. (Which I'm assuming you did in the context of the use of admin tools, right? As opposed to the guise of a concerned fellow editor? I've never bothered to look up how to check for sure whether a user account currently has admin privileges, so I'm asking.) Just briefly, unless you want to write at length—I really do just want to understand, not fight about it. --‿Ꞅtruthious 𝔹andersnatch ͡ |℡| 19:46, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

Struthious Bandersnatch, Maybe don't pretend that your "concern" isn't personal attacks, to start.

It's not removed as that's not standard fare with insults and attacks. —moonythedwarf (Braden N.) 20:06, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

Your behavior on Jimbo's talkpage had crossed the line from banter to obnoxious, and it was not apparent from your response here that you fully understood that. "I shan't continue even if the feigned medical problem does" comes across as a watered-down disclaimer rather than an "OK, I'll stop." Wikipedia brings together a broad range of people from all kinds of backgrounds, and what may be meant as a light or bantering response frequently falls flat or can be just plain misumnderstood. Your amplification of a remark into a superficially serious response about a serious medical condition was straying into crassness in a public forum. When warning people that they've crossed lines, it's best to be firm and unambiguous about it. You stopped (as far as I know, I haven't checked) and that's the end of it. Acroterion (talk) 20:26, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

@Acroterion: Well, that's a considerably less directly-medical-related, and a more asymmetrical, reason than I'd expected. Thank you for explaining yourself, and I applaud your vigilance against what you see as crassness.

But my response to you was not watered-down; I simply was not behaving in a chastened or cowering fashion because I did not think I'd done anything dangerous, despite respecting your prerogative to have a differing opinion (believing, at that point, that you were expressing some kind of safety concern.) “Insubordination” is not a Wikipedia thing (yet), is it?

As far as being firm and unambiguous, and the possibility of being misunderstood, I note that you still have not clarified whether you are speaking here ex cathedra in the context of wielding admin tools or as a concerned fellow editor. --‿Ꞅtruthious 𝔹andersnatch ͡ |℡| 05:16, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

@Acroterion: You have tried to portray what you wrote here as “unambiguous”, yet it has been anything but that. You have not even mentioned any Wikipedia policy or guideline above. (I mean I could imagine an allegation of crassness involving WP:ETIQUETTE or WP:CIVILITY but you have not made such a connection and rather left it as ambiguous, which is kind of a no-no while using language appearing to bring up safety-related concerns.)

I value the work you do on the project and as I said above, I sympathize with the frustrations you must encounter. But you have allowed some emotion or habit to get the better of you here.

We don't have to discuss this any further but since you refuse to clarify whether you were acting as an administrator here or as a regular Wikipedia editor, I have to point out for the record that WP:INTIMIDATION states, In particular, it is unacceptable to threaten another with some form of action that cannot or will not likely be taken. If you come to me with concerns like this again, please explain yourself clearly at the outset. --‿Ꞅtruthious 𝔹andersnatch ͡ |℡| 03:09, 28 October 2020 (UTC)

I'm not interested in discussing a moot court version of wiki-litigation. Your were veering into personal attacks, which are very much an administrative concern. I saw that the discussion was going off the rails into a potentially nasty direction, which was not nearly as funny as you appeared to believe, at the expense of people with genuine medical issues, and that you didn't seem to be heeding more gentle comments from other participants in that thread. Sarcasm and snideness do not translate well in text on the Internet. I understand that you like to debate things, and that you find the minutiae of Wikipedia policy bluelinks fascinating to pick apart. I warned you, and you reconsidered the manner in which you were arguing. Thank you. If you had continued or amplified, the discussion would have been more extensive and we would have gotten into consequences. In this case it did not and does not need to continue. Acroterion (talk) 13:43, 28 October 2020 (UTC)

@Acroterion: Now you're claiming that I'm wikilawyering, for daring to bring up Wikipedia policy in one comment. But I was very explicit beforehand as well without referring to PaG—your words have been imperative, vague, and threatening, in pursuit of what appears to be arm-twisting to get me to follow your commands without question, and now to upbraid me for my scandalous sense of humor, a superlative impropriety no doubt, and put me in my place.

Clearly your disinterest in what was happening in the interaction led you to not seek out the context—and I sincerely can't blame you on this particular count, as it's a sprawling, circuitous conversation thanks to lots of repeated feigning of incomprehension on the part of many users. A considerable amount of my writing on that talk page currently is argument that because of the resurgence of contemporary Nazism and racist ultranationalism worldwide, Wikipedia policy should specifically take a position against the expression of Nazism and racism, not just in an essay and not just when the content of the expression is insults or vandalism. This is what my interlocutor was referring to as nonsense and gibberish (in addition to the nearby comments), and they've been rather unsubtly, yet indirectly, expressing at least acceptance of racism besides that. (Have a look at what some of the diffs proudly linked to from their user page point to, too.) So no, not actually funny at all.

Despite your vehemence and DEFCON-1, bend-or-break-all-the-conduct-rules reaction here, simply taking my interlocutor at their word that all they could see from me was gibberish was an extremely mild pre-crime “veering into personal attack” compared to my actual objections to their behavior, and was a sign of me giving up rather than escalating the situation. (Though again, while I'd maintain that characterizing the cited, source-material-quoting prose of an encyclopedia editor—on an encyclopedia editing project—as gibberish is at least on par with any “crassness” of mine, if not a more severe display, I wouldn't expect you to pick up the full breadth of what that attack was aimed at from just the few surrounding comments.) Perhaps you can see why I wasn't simply going to be cowed by crude threats and pressure when you showed up here, though.

You are obviously quite comfortable with the sort of behavior you've exhibited here in the role of an admin. I am not comfortable with it, and I think that it is by far the more serious issue here compared to a handwavy inarticulate unevenly-enforced accusation of crassness—especially such an accusation where my initial response was compliant with your demands anyways despite believing that you were making a different request from what your wording represented, while you continue to portray what you say here as forthright and unambiguous.

We aren't going to convince each other, but I'm not just going to remain silent if you keep bringing up completely different rationales in an attempt to fault me from new angles in every comment you make here. --‿Ꞅtruthious 𝔹andersnatch ͡ |℡| 05:24, 29 October 2020 (UTC)

thanks for your feedback

thanks for your positive feedback, at the user page for Jimmy Wales. you are welcome to add any comments you may wish. by the way, i have already gleaned a valuable item, just by coming here to your page. i will add the 2020 article on racial unrest in the US to the navbox. thanks!! --Sm8900 (talk) 15:11, 25 October 2020 (UTC)

Your Opinion?

The Point I wanted to make was nicely explained in your revision wording. The ADL Board are the SOLE body deciding what is viewed, by the NGO, as "Hate" or Extremists. Just because you feel it represents xenophobia etc. doesn't remove the fact it is an arbitrary process and without appeals. Kinda like this Article!

1. 4thEstate #OGAmendmentOneDefense PVHenry 06:10, 26 October 2020 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Henry, P. V. (talk • contribs)

@Henry, P. V.: I guess I don't really understand you here. You didn't write anything about "an arbitrary process and without appeals" in the ADL article. But even if you had, what's stopping anyone from appealing to the ADL? It's a private organization, so there's no court system you'd have to move up through—anyone can just write them a letter.

You could do so yourself: if you want to argue that, say, xenophobia is a form of love rather than a form of hate, just write it up and send it to them. Or for example, petitions can have an impact too: if you could persuade a large number of people that xenophobia is a form of love, and get them all to sign a petition, and submit the petition to the ADL, maybe that would help to persuade them to regard xenophobia as a form of love rather than a form of hate. --‿Ꞅtruthious 𝔹andersnatch ͡ |℡| 06:40, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

October 2020

Please do not attack other editors, as you did at User_talk:Jimbo_Wales. Comment on content, not on contributors. Personal attacks damage the community and deter users. Please stay cool and keep this in mind while editing. "Don't worry, though, there are still many options open in life, even to someone with such severe limitations and functional deficits as yourself. You could pursue a career as a mechanical engineer, for example."

"Aphasia and sudden confusion of consciousness, speech or ability to understand problems may be signs of a stroke. I worry for your well-being, PackMecEng. Please take care of yourself."

This is not OK. Behave civilly, you know better than this. —moonythedwarf (Braden N.) 18:33, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

@Moonythedwarf: You say up above, don't pretend that your "concern" isn't personal attacks; but I note per your edit history that, although edit comments indicate you don't shy away from accusations about attacks, you have expressed no such similar “concern” to my interlocutor about supposed imminent damage to the community.

You know better than to use WP:NPA and related templates as a means of intimidation for one-sided off-page participation in talk page discussions. Don't be dense about what was happening in that exchange and as WP:CIVIL says, Be careful with user warning templates. --‿Ꞅtruthious 𝔹andersnatch ͡ |℡| 05:16, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

Struthious Bandersnatch, I am not trying to intimidate you. I am making you aware of how this reads.

Comments like "Don't worry, though, there are still many options open in life, even to someone with such severe limitations and functional deficits as yourself. You could pursue a career as a mechanical engineer, for example." read as contempt insults of another user's well being and intelligence, not as concern. This isn't OK. —moonythedwarf (Braden N.) 12:45, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

@Moonythedwarf: Well then, I'm just “making you aware” that acting as though you WP:HUH? can't see contemptuous comments from my interlocutor, and uncivilly dropping a warning template about damaging the community on my talk page, also does not read as concern, but as one-sided participation in and perpetuation of a conflict that had ended because I chose to walk away while my interlocutor made sure to get the last word nearly 48 hours before you came here to tell me to “stay cool”.

Sorry, but your chance to behave seriously or thoughtfully with respect to this issue was before you inserted the template and made your own accusation of “pretend[ing]”—tying logic pretzels now to try to make your past actions seem fair-minded and neutrally in pursuit of tranquility and respect on Wikipedia will get you nowhere here. --‿Ꞅtruthious 𝔹andersnatch ͡ |℡| 03:09, 28 October 2020 (UTC)

Struthious Bandersnatch, You're absolutely right about me not getting onto the other user too. I forgot to do this, and I sincerely apologize. It's a bit late now, though, and it was already a bit late when I posted this warning.

Their behavior is not acceptable either, and I recognize I made a mistake in forgetting to warn them. I simply prefer nobody be insulting each-other in the first place, and it wasn't necessary to start making attacks back. Just remember IAR does not apply to discussion with other editors. You can't ignore WP:NPA.

This applies here as well. Don't project who you want to think I am (an enemy) onto me, it's simply rude.

Thanks, —moonythedwarf (Braden N.) 18:34, 28 October 2020 (UTC)

@Moonythedwarf: I appreciate you finally getting to the point of acknowledging part of my interlocutor's behavior. “It's a bit late now” seems like an odd excuse to make when you waited 48 hours to come cluck your tongue at me, but I concur that you shouldn't engage with them, as this is all simply perpetuation of the conflict I chose to walk away from.

I still think your examination of this is too shallow, though; see my exchange with Acroterion above for more context on what my interlocutor's remarks actually meant, if you genuinely care about rudeness (when, again, whether as “an enemy” or a straight-shooting altruistic communitarian, you have made some civility missteps yourself which you seem to be having trouble acknowledging as such.) --‿Ꞅtruthious 𝔹andersnatch ͡ |℡| 05:24, 29 October 2020 (UTC)

minor edits

Thank you for your comment about how minor edits work. I will follow that going forward. -Lmomjian — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lmomjian (talk • contribs) 04:57, 6 November 2020 (UTC)

November 2020

Please do not add or change content, as you did at 2020 United States racial unrest, without citing a reliable source. Please review the guidelines at Wikipedia:Citing sources and take this opportunity to add references to the article. These are the offending edits: [1][2] Crossroads ^-talk- 08:06, 6 November 2020 (UTC)

Right, thanks for your “advice” on how to cite sources, hotshot. I started a thread on the ATP about your supposedly-more-accurate wording from the source. (Spoiler: it's less accurate than what I wrote.) --‿Ꞅtruthious 𝔹andersnatch ͡ |℡| 08:42, 6 November 2020 (UTC)

Bandersnatches

Hello, Struthious Bandersnatch. What about the Frumious Bandersnatch? Are the two of you related? If you should wish to write about him/her, please be aware of WP:COI. Bishonen | tålk 16:29, 8 November 2020 (UTC).

And the Banker, inspired with a courage so new
It was matter for general remark,
Rushed madly ahead and was lost to their view
In his zeal to discover the Snark.

But while he was seeking with thimbles and care,
A Bandersnatch swiftly drew nigh
And grabbed at the Banker, who shrieked in despair,
For he knew it was useless to fly.

He offered large discount — he offered a cheque
(Drawn "to bearer") for seven-pounds-ten:
But the Bandersnatch merely extended its neck
And grabbed at the Banker again.

Without rest or pause — while those frumious jaws
Went savagely snapping around —
He skipped and he hopped, and he floundered and flopped,
Till fainting he fell to the ground.

The Bandersnatch fled as the others appeared
Led on by that fear-stricken yell:
And the Bellman remarked "It is just as I feared!"
And solemnly tolled on his bell.

And as Sound Money stands at rest,
The Jabberwock, upon the run,
Comes whiffling from the Wooly West,
Burbling "Sixteen to One!"

One, two! - One, two! - and through and through,
Sound Money's sword goes snicker-snack;
He'll leave it dead, and with its head,
He'll go galumphing back.

So you see we're not so bad—we can be scared off by crowds. But beware the Jabberwock, my son. --‿Ꞅtruthious 𝔹andersnatch ͡ |℡| 17:27, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

Edits at American Descendants of Slavery

@Robjwev: We don't have to talk about this any further but I want to make what I think is an important clarification: when I said on your talk page that I thought you'd finally gotten around to actually describing the nature of your relationship to ADOS, I was referring to your preceding statement, which appeared to me to mean that the reason you originally named your account “Adosinsurgent” is simply because you literally consider yourself an “American descendant of slavery” and that by I’m not part of the [American Descendants of Slavery] movement you seem to mean that the only relationship is that their hashtag inspired your original username; and that consequently, as I said, your attempts to for example delete negative opinions of ADOS from the article are due to WP:ADVOCACY rather than WP:COI. --‿Ꞅtruthious 𝔹andersnatch ͡ |℡| 19:45, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

You’re not understanding so if someone is Irish are they not allowed to comment on anything Irish? If someone had cancer are they not allowed to comment on anything cancer related? You’re uninformed in this space you’re not acting in good faith you’re the accuser it’s your job to prove my COI. I tried to explain this to you and gave you evidence to make you understand but you refuse to accept it because you have already made up your mind. Like I stated before if you have evidence bring it to whoever you need to. Don’t bother me anymore you’re harassing me. Leave me alone. Robjwev (talk) 20:17, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

I'm not going to ping you, but in the mien of the many other orders you've been trying to give me and others, you can't prohibit me from defending myself from accusations made against me on my own user talk page.

As with other policies and guidelines you've tried to use in your arguments, I think you have not fully read or are not properly applying WP:COI. I, and other editors, don't have to prove that someone has a COI before we can say someone appear[s] to have a close connection to the subject; WP:APPARENTCOI is enough. And naming yourself after an organization while refusing to explain how that occurred is way more than enough for an apparent COI.

What I am saying is that if someone initially named their user account (to pick an Irish example at random) “IrelandOfflineinsurgent”—even if the real reason for doing so was that they were, say, an Australian of Irish descent who approved of the organization's values and objectives—and went to that article and started deleting anything negative about the group from the article, and changed their username after being blocked for that WP:UPOL violation, but after getting unblocked continued with the same type of edits while refusing to explain what the apparently very specific connection to the organization was—yes, in that case it would be inappropriate to simply pretend the user in question has had a WP:CLEANSTART for purposes of editing that organization's article. A username change doesn't make editing history vanish—not when you are explicitly saying that there isn't even any WP:PRIVACY issue because you have no direct connection to ADOS.

I've said that, given your explanation today of how you came to name your account after ADOS, it would seem that your attempts to for example delete negative opinions of ADOS from the article are due to WP:ADVOCACY rather than WP:COI. As I've also said before I hope that you continue participating here, but there are rules. --‿Ꞅtruthious 𝔹andersnatch ͡ |℡| 21:09, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

AE discussion notice

You are the subject of a discussion at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Struthious Bandersnatch. You are welcome to participate in that discussion. Crossroads ^-talk- 06:36, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

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Warning

Hi Struthious, during a recent AN/I thread, I asked you not to accuse people of lying, after which you came to my talk page and effectively did it again. Now I see Jehochman has closed an AE thread and asked you to tone things down, and now you've gone to his talk page to keep things going.

It's therefore worth making clear that you're likely to be blocked if you continue posting accusations, and especially if you do it in place of edit summaries. Please start creating separate (non-accusatory) edit summaries, rather than copy-pasting your replies. Doing the latter makes the watchlists fill up with your accusations, which is disruptive. Continuing with these attacks is likely to lead to blocks and topic bans from the articles you're talking about, so please proceed carefully. If you choose to respond to this, please do it here rather than on my talk page. Many thanks, SarahSV ^(talk) 22:10, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

SarahSV: I'm sorry but this is not an attempt to “keep things going” or simply be a troublemaker and cause admins headaches—the statements which you and Jehochman have made in the respective fora are genuinely unclear and uninformative about how Wikipedia P&G govern the editing situations in question. I certainly don't expect you guys to write as much as I have but frankly your brief statements completely fail to address any of my questions or concerns at all, even in days' worth of requesting clarification on your talk page on what the ANI case was about.

Jehochman has already stated at his user talk page that his closing comment at AE did not reflect a finding that my use of the word “racist” to criticize the behavior of my interlocutor was unsupported by clear evidence, but that he was simply giving general user conduct advice, in the context of racism on that particular occasion rather than in the context of things my interlocutor said such as stating that my vision of Wikipedia is a totalitarian rule of fear.

My interlocutor at AE was actually the one who linked to the section of the WP:NONAZIS essay which states, Editors making reports for extremist racism or edits with more subtle expressions of racism that can be substantiated with diffs should bring them forward to administrators without fear of sanctions or blocks. If this was not a “more subtle expression of racism” supported by “clear evidence” I am having difficulty imagining what could possibly fit that description and actually get dealt with. I'm also having difficulty seeing the focus on my behavior and my reaction to racism—confined to AE, a forum specifically dedicated to discussing user conduct, until the issue was closed without comment on that aspect, whence I mentioned it without a name or link here and on Jehochman's UTP—and an instruction to “tone things down”, without even a single comment directed towards the racist behavior itself other than my own comments—I'm having trouble seeing that as anything other than refusal to deal with racist behavior by an editor on the talk page of an article which is specifically about Black civil rights in the U.S.

At ANI and here, your instructions about responding to what I perceive as lying also appear to amount to “don't talk about it”. I'm entirely willing to modify the phrasing I use, but since I already tried simply ceasing all use of that particular word (apart from the use–mention issue of explaining what I was asking you about in my very first comment on your talk page, then I didn't use it anywhere on Wikipedia subsequently) yet you have accused me of “effectively” doing it again, I'm going to need some rather specific guidance as far as what I can and can't say; for starters:

1. to look at the instance which began all of this and headlined at ANI: if an editor deletes fifteen words from an article, including a terminating citation, yet claims in the edit summary that they are deleting “unsourced” content, and refuses for a week and through an entire ANI case specifically concerned with the edit and edit summary to even acknowledge that this was untrue, am I at least allowed to call the edit summary “untrue” as I did here yesterday? Can I say “they'd claimed a sourced statement was unsourced” as I did at your talk page? Or do I have to characterize this as an accident or typo or something along those lines, even at this point? This is, you may recall, the edit which the user simply did not reply to a question about on the talk page for nearly a week, and then deleted the same content again five or six times IIRC with different deletion rationales over the reverts of myself and two other users.
2. If an editor claims in edit summaries in the course of deleting cited content that their deletions are supported by talk page consensus when it is not, as I observed at your talk page is something which two different editors are now doing at the article in question, am I allowed to, as like at your talk page, say that their edits “plainly are not” supported by consensus? In this situation, would I be allowed to link to the WP:SHAMCONSENSUS essay at all?
3. As I described on your talk page, if an editor actually speaks for me in saying that all of the editors who have been involved (on both sides) in the discussion support deletion of content, while referring to another account's edit in which the edit summary specifically mentions me opposing the changes, can I call this “untrue” or “lying”? As this is putting words in my mouth I really feel like I should be able to denounce it more strongly than just that it's “untrue” or “wrong” here.
4. And as I also pointed out on your talk page, if an editor invokes BRD as justification for deleting the same content eight times in the face of reverts from four different editors, right above an actual quote of WP:BRD literally showing that it explicitly says, BRD is never a reason for reverting, do I really, seriously, after all of the above, still have to pretend that it's just a tremendous coincidence or an accident? Particularly when, after I immediately pointed out what the quote from BRD below said, the editor made no comment on their “error” and went on without skipping a beat? Could I at least say that's “misleading” or if not that it's “untrue”? (I didn't actually say either of those things)

I'm going to refrain from responding in discussions where I'd otherwise be mentioning these issues for the moment, so please at least let me know soon if I can use the word “untrue” in the aforementioned contexts.

I also have to admit that I'm quite baffled that you don't appear to regard the behavior I've described as disruptive editing (and possibly not even as lying? The statements you have made do not actually make this clear one way or the other), in particular using edit summaries to mischaracterize the actual edit made when you're saying here that placing the actual wording from an edit in its summary is disruptive (though I'll certainly write more descriptive summaries, as you ask; I apologize, I didn't quite understand what you were saying about watchlists at ANI, but it's clear now.) I think this user is going to take your non-commentary on all of the above as carte blanche to ramp up their deceptive edits; I could give examples from today but I don't want to make this longer.

I am, as they say, no spring chicken; as I mentioned at AE I actually wrote a section of WP:AGF back in the aughts, as well as a section of WP:ETIQ, and both sections stand to this day; and I do not think that Wikipedia behavioral guidelines say that you cannot point out when an editor is lying, even by specifically using the word “lying”, or point out that they are being deceptive or intentionally misleading, not when you can write a book demonstrating it as I have done.

But I don't have an admin's perspective on this and if you think it's important to continue describing this behavior extremely indirectly (disclosure: the ETIQ section I wrote is “Avoid indirect criticism”) even after it's been repeated again and again and again, and anything more specific is an attack (violating WP:NPA, I assume you're saying), I guess I'm okay with that. But as I said, I really need specifics to properly understand what I can and can't say in describing this kind of thing, after I have laid out all of these behaviors in detail, with diffs, repeatedly, to no comment on your part.

I'm sorry this is so long, but it's the product of you repeatedly not addressing the same questions at ANI—or even responding to the issues named in the title of the case—and then not responding on your talk page, and simultaneous involvement of the AE case against me as a topic of discussion here. --‿Ꞅtruthious 𝔹andersnatch ͡ |℡| 15:03, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

• SarahSV, sorry to take up yet more of your time but I have to add context to the above: (1) the part being quoted from the WP:CRYRACIST section of NONAZIS is being taken out of context. That whole section makes clear that their behavior is inappropriate (even though it is an essay). A "subtle expression of racism" has to actually be racism; heck, why didn't they just suggest "black civil rights" (which was used above) in place of "black liberation"? Now, no less than three different administrators have dismissed their claim that I am racist and basically said to stop making it, yet the editor is still trying to get me denounced as one. (2) With Stonkaments, while I thought they had maybe a couple different times reverted when they shouldn't have, the accusations basically hold no merit in my recall because the consensus on the talk page was fast-evolving from certain to less-certain, etc. I won't go over it again as Stonkaments explained the matter elsewhere. (3) The editor above appeals, as it were, to their 'age and experience'. They have been around since 2008 but are not that experienced. For comparison, per meta:Special:CentralAuth, I have 9,163 edits on this Wikipedia and 9,286 globally; Struthious Bandersnatch has only 5,538 on this Wikipedia and they have 10,966 globally. Even I have much more first-hand experience with en-wiki than they do. All the same, they are experienced enough to absolutely know better. (Normally I wouldn't be for this kind of "who knows more" comparison, but their framing above means it has to be pointed out.) (4) In case they play the victim in their response to me: this page is still on my watchlist from when I notified them above, and I have every right to comment in any case since they are still groundlessly trying to get me denounced. Crossroads ^-talk- 16:39, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
  • Again... for someone who says they're afraid of being harassed by me, it's awfully strange that you keep joining conversations I'm a part of, Crossroads, watchlist or not.
    I'd love to hear who these administrators are who have supposedly dismissed my claims (which, again, as I said above, are not that you are somehow fundamentally a racist... so many people made such a big stink about this sort of distinction and made other tone arguments during the twentieth century, as a prerequisite to actually taking any action against racism, that here in this century very specific delineations are made between racist behavior, actions, and individual attitudes and people somehow being integrally racist) given that, as I point out above, Jehochman has explicitly said in response to my inquiry that their remark upon closing the AE case did not signify a finding that I didn't present “clear evidence” that calling “black liberation” meaningless and a platitude and all the other contradictory stuff is, as I characterized it at AE, articulating a racist attitude towards what our encyclopedia should say.
    But you know, presumably an AE decision can be appealed to ArbCom itself. You could do that, instead of just complaining all over the place, if you are really confident that the case I have made is “groundless”. I was also quite disappointed with the AE outcome and would welcome an appeal or further official resolution on these matters that is not just general advice, as I think that they are very important. --‿Ꞅtruthious 𝔹andersnatch ͡ |℡| 17:30, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
    • Just as I predicted. I see that you are still taking things out of context, this time part of what Jehochman said. You also are cherry-picking what you said about me at AE; you said that I was being brazenly and blatantly racist and watching it play out has been extremely disgusting (and you picked this choice bit for your edit summary). [3] And you still think AE should have denounced me. Yes, the three admins never endorsed your accusations and also made statements obviously aimed at you about not calling people racist without good reason, with SarahSV above being particularly clear. It wasn't me making accusations of racism. Crossroads ^-talk- 17:53, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

Crossroads, I think it's better if you stop responding. Struthious, I haven't read your long post. If you're saying you don't know what disruption is, then your days here are likely to be numbered. Instead of dissecting other people's work, please return to your own editing. If you find editing in one area too stressful, then choose another area to work in. SarahSV ^(talk) 20:01, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

SarahSV: I have put quite a bit of effort into clearly articulating and documenting the difficulties I'm experiencing with which I need admin assistance, and in asking for very specific guidance from you as you appear to be saying that I'm responding to these difficulties the wrong way. But you do not appear to be putting any effort at all in here if you are now flaunting the fact that you're not even reading what I am writing.

Calmly devoting time to accurately explaining things as I have to everyone I've interacted with in these matters, even in the face of the sort of official response you are providing here, is the exact opposite of finding editing too stressful and suggesting that is a problem for me is simply more pejorative dismissiveness on your part; this rhetorical behavior is quite unbecoming conduct for an administrator. And to propose that someone, who opened an ANI case about disruptive editing and has spent the last five days writing paragraph after paragraph of detailed discussion of disruptive editing which you are apparently pointedly ignoring—to tell me on my talk page that I'm saying [I] don't know what disruption is is frankly just baldly insulting, and as with so many other aspects of your response to this whole saga it leaves me wondering what your actual objection to accurate use of the word “lying” could possibly be.

Speaking of which—I could not help but notice that in your repeated pronouncements you appear to have studiously avoided the issue of whether the behavior I have been calling “lying” is actually lying. As I noted above, I am the author of the guideline section Wikipedia:Etiquette#Avoid indirect criticism. So I'm going to have to insist that you actually tell me: are you saying that even if another editor is lying, it's a behavioral guidelines violation to refer to that as “lying”? Because WP:ETIQ probably needs to be amended, if that is indeed what you're saying. --‿Ꞅtruthious 𝔹andersnatch ͡ |℡| 11:14, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

SarahSV: I've done my best to take you seriously, but I'm past my limit here. You have not even pretended to act responsibly or to do due diligence. As far as I can tell, what happened is that you made some sort of snap judgment about me as soon as you saw my posting at ANI—a judgment which also happened to serve the purpose of saving you a bunch of effort that actually investigating what I was talking about would've required—which resulted in you not even finishing reading the first paragraph I wrote there. This is evident because you linked to a diff on a completely separate page for an example of me using the word “lying”, when it was basically the first thing I said at ANI.

You appeared to regard me continuing to ask for clarification on this discrepancy, or what your comments meant about the specific issues I'd brought forward, as a form of insubordination or something. And now you're openly saying you don't read what I write. As I've said, I think I'm fairly familiar with Wikipedia behavioral guidelines: an editor is not obligated to have some special deference or subservience to an admin, beyond the normal collegial respect due another editor—admins are not an aristocracy or an officer corps of Wikipedia.

Not only are you being intentionally insulting here in the same way you appear to try to fault me for being, but doing so ex officio while refusing to explain your reasoning and for example insinuating that my days on Wikipedia are numbered amounts to WP:INTIMIDATION—...it is unacceptable to threaten another with some form of action that cannot or will not likely be taken. That essay gives Don't do that or you will be blocked as an example of an unacceptable threat; though I will concede that, despite completely refusing to address the issue of whether the claim of mine you reference have been accurate or not, you have couched mention of blocking here in conditional terms.

I appreciate that being an administrator is a difficult and burdensome job out of the many that are required to keep this project going. But you have cut way too many corners here. --‿Ꞅtruthious 𝔹andersnatch ͡ |℡| 12:59, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

@Struthious Bandersnatch: One thing I've noticed is you make a lot of bad faith assumptions and claims about other editors' intentions. Here, for example, you call SarahSV "intentionally insulting". And of course you've repeatedly accused me of lying (lie, definition: "to make an untrue statement with intent to deceive"[4]) and intentional deception. Of course you cannot actually know another editor's intentions[5], and such speculation and accusations are highly disruptive. Stonkaments (talk) 18:06, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

@Stonkaments: As I've mentioned in response to comments like this from you in the past, an essay that is relevant to this suggestion that all motivation of others must be treated as a complete mystery, no matter what, is meta's Don't be dense. AGF is not some kind of thought police thing where we're perpetually required to take the attitude, “Gosh, they must've just made the same mistake a dozen times in a row and accidentally never acknowledged it!” while observing the behavior of others. You spool out the WP:ROPE, you interact in good faith and provide second chance after second chance, but at some point you get to the end of the rope. --‿Ꞅtruthious 𝔹andersnatch ͡ |℡| 18:54, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

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This is a standard message to notify contributors about an administrative ruling in effect. It does not imply that there are any issues with your contributions to date.

You have shown interest in the English Wikipedia Manual of Style and article titles policy. Due to past disruption in this topic area, a more stringent set of rules called discretionary sanctions is in effect. Any administrator may impose sanctions on editors who do not strictly follow Wikipedia's policies, or the page-specific restrictions, when making edits related to the topic.

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Izno (talk) 20:49, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

brd

Read wp:brd you have been reverted its now down to you to make a case at talk.Slatersteven (talk) 17:12, 11 December 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for reverting yourself. --‿Ꞅtruthious 𝔹andersnatch ͡ |℡| 15:42, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

Offensive remarks

I found your "not-taking-responsibility-for-your-own-words" remark at Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Mathematics#External_practices rather offensive. Someone not taking responsibility for their own words involved denying that they've ever said such a thing, or disavowing responsibility for harm they may have caused. This is a style discussion which is hurting no one, and I'm aghast at the suggestion that I'm a callous person that would say things carelessly or without regard for consequences. I'm not denying anything I've said. I'm trying to understand your point of view and accommodate your requests, but every time I do, I'm smacked in the face by personal accusations like this, implying I'm somehow arguing in bad faith. With other remarks like '"wasn't entirely clear", eh? Right.' you're clearly failing to assume good faith and just making that discussion painful and sharp-elbowed and hard to read.

I also found the "Beland gets what they want" remark to be unwarranted and hurtful. I started gathering evidence on an issue you were complaining there was a lack of evidence about. Had I started to find the non-ASCII encoding was common practice, I think that would be one argument against adopting my proposal. Gathering this sort of evidence is exactly how we approached the great "should ships be called 'she' or 'it'" question last year. Yes, if I find evidence that other editors judge supports my proposal, it's more likely the proposal will be adopted. That's what is supposed to happen in a rational and fair-minded discussion. If you don't find that evidence persuasive, that's fine. But making it personal and snarky is just generating anger and resentment, and is not helping resolve this controversy in a civil fashion, and alienating other editors who might be sympathetic to your arguments. We can't we just focus on the actual merits of the pros and cons? -- Beland (talk) 20:00, 11 December 2020 (UTC)

You want to change the Wikipedia styling guideline under discussion but you have repeatedly written as though it's somehow my wish to have an RfC on the matter, which is blatantly and shamelessly deceptive. And you are doing so amongst a hail of logical fallacies which, as I have meticulously pointed out, in at least one case was debunked as a Sophist rhetorical technique by Classical Greek philosophers thousands of years ago, which you haven't relented on even once I'd demonstrated your logic to be fallacious and gone to the effort of linking the relevant Wikipedia article.

So no, I am not just going to allow those things to go unremarked-upon as if you're carrying out a straight-shooting collegial discussion “focusing on the actual merits”—to do so would have required approaching the topic neutrally and empirically, which you explicitly rejected doing and said that NPOV only applies to article content when in fact it is very clearly called for in WP:PGCHANGE. (Which, I'm now seeing, you have also contradicted yourself to claim does not actually apply to your proposal to change the MOS mathematics guideline.)

I'm also quite familiar with the proverb give them an inch and they'll take a mile—if I were to allow you to portray an RfC as my idea and preference, you certainly have not acquitted yourself as the kind of responsible interlocutor who would be content with that small amount of misdirection.

I mean you're trying to do it right here on my own user talk page:

I started gathering evidence on an issue you were complaining there was a lack of evidence about.

No, the initial request I made of you was quite clearly to please follow Wikipedia styling guidelines, and not even in general despite the fact that you are indeed bound by them in general, but just on pages where I'd done work. Then you proposed, in the guideline's talk page, We can look around and gather evidence as to whether this is common practice on the basis of your "unproven common undocumented may-or-may-not-have-to-do-with-styling practice translates into mandatory Wikipedia styling rule" theory; I have searched through my own comments in the talk page for the word "evidence" and I definitely did not say anything remotely like the statement you have so creatively attributed to me above.

Rewriting history into me somehow asking you to gather evidence on something you wanted to axe-grind about and for the purpose of undermining the existing MOS rules is shameless, unmitigated bullshit. You are not an aggrieved victim here; if you are experiencing pain while reading accurate descriptions of your own behavior, it is you yourself who is inflicting that pain, and you should simply stop with the bullshit, not expect others to coddle you by pretending that WP:P&G or logic do not exist.

Seriously, you have essentially forced me to write essays introducing you to computing fields you evidently weren't even familiar with at even a 101 level—this is a monstrous level of entitlement, to not even expect to have to educate yourself. In my (developed) country, there are people who die in hospital waiting rooms after waiting there for days because they don't even have the social privilege to expect their lethal medical conditions to be treated at a hospital, and here you are holding a Wikipedia guideline at gunpoint for the sake of your pride and to save yourself some reading.

You are creating a paper trail of sophistry and deception all by yourself and it is not uncivil, and certainly not unfair—in fact it's ludicrous that you've engaged in this sort of stuff and then had the gall to act as though I'm being unfair—for me to explicitly point that paper trail out in exacting detail, with links. If you think otherwise, go ahead and start a user conduct proceeding against me—I'm quite prepared to write in even greater detail justifying my characterizations of your rhetorical behavior and go all the way to ArbCom if need be. Wikipedia, like every other major early-twenty-first-century web property, has a user moderation style which is at this point founded on hair-trigger hyperenforcement of supposed etiquette rules, and if I did not know exactly what I am doing—because back in the aughts I actually wrote parts of WP:ETIQ and WP:AGF—I'd be banned like, say, any editor who tries to discuss non-insult, non-vandalism racism on a talk page like a normal human being instead of a Wikipedia courtesan.

I can see that, now in 2020, Wikipedia culture has mutated to the point that deception and misdirection on talk pages is basically de rigueur, and no one even mentions WP:Gaming the system any more, but I am a dinosaur from an earlier age before the meteor hit, and the P&G based on actually expecting and requiring editors to act in good faith are still on the books and in force for me to use and insist that you follow. Despite your every effort at the Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Mathematics discussion of Unicode characters to avoid following Wikipedia policies, guidelines, and procedures and refuse to even acknowledge your brazen deviation from them or your repeated deceptive tactics.

And as I put it on that talk page just now: When it's a matter of rules that would restrict the behavior and Wikipedia editing practices of other people it seems like you can't wait to conjure them out of thin air and grasp at straws for a way to impose your own will through them—but when it comes to any rules which would apply to your own behavior, it's WP:HUH? --‿Ꞅtruthious 𝔹andersnatch ͡ |℡| 15:42, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

I'm not sure you think I'm trying to "deceive" and make think the RFC was your idea. Or why it matters who proposes an RFC, as they should generally be judged on their merits. Especially since I was trying to offer you the chance to control the wording. I was basically asking you if, given the 2-1 !vote, you wanted to allow the proposal to be adopted despite disagreeing with it, to ask for a formal closure based on the discussion so far, or for me to make the proposal an official RFC. I'm sorry the question was apparently unclear, and I'm sorry I could not accurately discern whether "If you still seriously want to proceed further here" was referring to an immediate formal closure or an RFC, even if when you wrote that it seemed clear to you. Please understand that even though I disagree with you, I'm trying to somehow cheat my way to a victory on this tremendously unimportant question. This is me trying to build consensus in the wiki way; I don't know why you see nefarious motives in every tiny and largely irrelevant detail.

I have not contradicted myself on the issue of NPOV. WP:PGCHANGE does not require neutrality in the sense that WP:NPOV requires it in article text. WP:PGCHANGE requires accurately describing "the community's view". As WP:NOTPART explains, style pages need not be neutral, just as they need not be referenced to third-party sources.

On the question of external practices, it was your remark "you have not exactly demonstrated yourself willing to put much effort into doing research", and your reference to "argument from silence", which I took to be complaints that no evidence had been produced in support of my contention that external sources don't do those. I thought you would be pleased to see your concern had been heard, understood, and acted on, so I'm rather offended that you turn around and call that openness to dissenting perspectives as "shameless, unmitigated bullshit". I don't know why you use personal and condescending language saying that I want to be coddled by having you pretend logic doesn't exist, especially when I'm actually responding to your claims of logical fallacy. You can make your point and be much more likely to find agreement simply by pointing out, if you think it's warranted, that a response doesn't adequately address a problem of logic you previously pointed out, and calmly giving a reason or two. My original contention was "I doubt that any style guide anywhere explicitly recommends using the precomposed Roman numerals in English prose", though as you rightly point out, style guides might not mention this point because it's obscure, which is why I started gathering information about actual practices. Certainly a reasonable objection is that more sampling needs to be done before we have high confidence that what I'm thinking never happens actually never happens. But if not in this way, how would you rather that I respond to your "argument from silence" and "Beland hasn't done enough research" concerns?

I'm sorry the health care system in your country is not adequate and fair, but I'm not sure what that has to do with me. I honestly do not understand why you say I am holding the Wikipedia style guide "at gunpoint". Do you see proposing a change to the style guide with which you disagree to be an immoral act of force? -- Beland (talk) 00:51, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

Your remark "I guess this is all new stuff for you" I also found gratuitous and needlessly personal, and also not factually accurate. Explaining your own background like "but as I said I've been doing this since the last century" is helpful, but insulting the intelligence or experience of another editor is an unnecessary personal attack which just makes it harder for that person and other editors who see such ugly remarks to digest and appreciate the technical and usability argument you were making.

My apologies if this is not an accurate inference, but I get the impression that you think that appearing smarter or more technically knowledgeable makes your point of view more valid or persuasive, and hence making other people look stupid or ignorant in comparison helps undermine their arguments. Personally, I don't think that's how discussions about web publishing guidelines should work, and in my experience on Wikipedia and working for web companies, it generally doesn't. Many times non-engineering folks are involved in such discussions, and despite sometimes being completely unfamiliar with the technical issues at hand, have important perspectives and in some cases are actually the decision-makers. If one of my coworkers in say design or customer service or sales is unfamiliar with the technical aspects of a question, as an engineer I find it's my responsibility to educate them about the technical issues at least to the degree they want or need to in order to understand what the consequences are for customers, employees, or business processes. I don't berate them for being ignorant or inexperienced or ignore them or tell them to be quiet, and those would be good ways to get fired. Non-engineers have valuable familiarity with how products are being used by people, which engineers often lack. Even engineers who are new to a problem can be helpful in that they have a perspective untainted by history and can look at things with a fresh set of eyes. Likewise, here on the wiki, I find that non-programmers and less-experienced programmers have enormously useful perspectives. They have every right to be politely informed by other editors about the consequences of technical decisions and help weigh the good and bad consequences, like for search engines and web browser searches and machine readability, even if they don't have a deep understanding of the technical mechanisms. In this case, Roman numerals aren't commonly used in math articles, and outside of chemists talking about compounds I expect the vast majority of editors who use them do not have STEM backgrounds. Does the idea of including people of all backgrounds make any sense to you?

WP:NOTCOMPULSORY says "Wikipedia is a volunteer community and does not require the Wikipedians to give any more time and effort than they wish. Focus on improving the encyclopedia itself, rather than demanding more from other Wikipedians."

I raise that because some of your comments have persistently tried to goad me into working on certain things:

"in case you're actually sincere about any of the things you're saying regarding wanting Wikipedia to work better"

"So you could put your money where your mouth is, as it were, and work on some issues surrounding implementation of MathML"

"usability issues you seem curiously uninterested in solving despite my pointing to active efforts to do so"

It's fine, and indeed actually quite helpful to point out that there are efforts underway and to encourage other editors to contribute, but super demotivating to claim or imply that other editors aren't doing enough work. That's how I understood these remarks which were directed at me; given I have over 100,000 edits and years of work on the project, I found not that implication only disrespectful but insulting. Maybe I will look into these issues later, or maybe I will focus on my multi-year spell check of the entire English Wikipedia. Either way, WP:NOTCOMPULSORY is a policy, not a guideline or an essay, so I ask you to please follow the policy and refrain from any further comments on whether or not other editors are putting in enough effort or working on fixing problems you've pointed out. -- Beland (talk) 01:47, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

If you genuinely just can't understand why I would object to you portraying me as wanting comment from the community about making a change to a Wikipedia guideline I don't want to make, after I have said a bazillion times that I don't want to make the change and that I want you to follow WP:P&G as they currently read, then that falls under the Wikipedia:Disruptive editing § Failure or refusal to "get the point" paragraph,

Sometimes, even when editors act in good faith, their contributions may continue to be disruptive and time-wasting, for example, by continuing to say they don't understand what the problem is. Although editors should be encouraged to be bold and just do things if they think they're right, sometimes a lack of competence can get in the way. If the community spends more time cleaning up editors' mistakes and educating them about policies and guidelines than it considers necessary, sanctions may have to be imposed.

There really is no lack of clarity, whatsoever, though. It doesn't matter whether I was talking about formal closure of a talk thread or an RfC, it still isn't believable that you "accidentally" interpreted anything I said to mean that perhaps I wanted to allow the proposal to be adopted despite disagreeing with it.

I guess this is a Freudian slip, but one well worth pointing out:

Please understand that even though I disagree with you, I'm trying to somehow cheat my way to a victory on this tremendously unimportant question.

You are not trying to build consensus in the wiki way: you pretty much explicitly reject doing so every time I point out that your words and rhetorical actions are at variance with Wikipedia policies, guidelines, conventions, and procedures.

Your claims about neutrality not being expected by policies, guidelines, conventions, and procedures are simply bullshit, as demonstrated by the page you yourself attempted to quote to this effect in the MOS talk thread.

WP:PGCHANGE explicitly says changes to P&G must be "faithfully reflecting the community's view"; WP:WPRFC states that you must "do your best" to "describe the issue neutrally"; and the page you've quoted in the MOS talk thread, WP:RM#CM, says that neutrality is expected in processes other than itself on Wikipedia. The very fact that you are trying your best to buck off the conventions of neutrality and policies and guidelines requiring it at the same time you want to mandate all other editors must follow your own wishes down to the choice of individual characters in writing Wikipedia articles really captures your attitude here. The fact that P&G are WP:NOTPART of the encyclopedia does not mean that you can exempt yourself from all of these other rules and just be as biased and misleading as you desire in your pursuit of what you want. That is not an "irrelevant detail".

As Izno pointed out in the MOS talk thread, your listing of links to individual pages as some sort of proof of the overriding correctness of your preferences is WP:Common style fallacy. And yes, you are making many arguments from silence. If you think your list makes any difference in that regard, you don't understand what an argument from silence is.

You have not demonstrated openness to dissenting perspectives. You can make your point and be much more likely to find agreement simply by pointing out, if you think it's warranted, that a response doesn't adequately address a problem of logic you previously pointed out, and calmly giving a reason or two.—no, I can't. You have very thoroughly demonstrated that responding that way to you is by no means sufficient in the course of the month it's been since I requested on your UTP that you follow Wikipedia P&G—requesting not even that you follow them in general, but just follow them on the pages I'd worked on.

As far as the accessibility issues being new to you—sorry, again, no—saying that to you, that the accessibility problems you bring up are clearly novel in your experience, is not a violation of WP:NPA. I can very easily demonstrate this to be true. You have demonstrated no intention whatsoever to appreciate any technical or usability arguments I've made, but have instead thrown everything against the wall in attempts to dismiss them to see what sticks; I'm not going to pretend that you've exhibited in-depth knowledge or precision or genuine concern about accessibility in the course of your campaign to force me to accept what you want by getting MOS:MATHS changed.

Do you see proposing a change to the style guide with which you disagree to be an immoral act of force?—yes, I see an expectation to not have to follow the same rules everyone else does, and to force through rules controlling the behavior of others to suit yourself, as immoral and as the act of someone with a low character and unexamined social privilege. You are quite aware that someone with less technical expertise, less free time to spend, and less experience with Wikipedia P&G than I have could be prevailed over by simple force, logical fallacies, circuitous arguments, and "accidental", deniable misrepresentations, and that's exactly what you're trying to pull to get your way on this supposedly "tremendously unimportant question". But, hey, the bad guys winning these days is very much in vogue—you may yet get your way and mandate your preferences for all other editors, but I'm not going to sugar-coat anything and ease whatever pangs of conscience may have brought you to my UTP.

I get the impression that you think that appearing smarter or more technically knowledgeable makes your point of view more valid or persuasive, and hence making other people look stupid or ignorant in comparison helps undermine their arguments—that's exactly the impression I get from your behavior making uncited generalized pronouncements about the efficiency and operation of NLP systems, even after a month of discussion still not bothering to cite these things in your proposed RfC text. You are the one demonstrating your ignorance and inattention to detail by doing things like that or citing things that say the opposite of what you claim they mean—you just expect to not be held accountable for that ignorance and inattention to detail. It's great that you think you should be allowed to screw up like that, fumble other basic stuff like adherence to Wikipedia P&G, constantly employ logical fallacies, and still get your way and never face any repercussions for any of it, never even have it pointed out in the course of the argument. But I don't.

Educating you is exactly what I have been doing for the past month—both on technical topics and Wikipedia P&G, but you still expect to get away with not following P&G and to be treated as an authority who doesn't have to provide citations. Believe me, you have not even remotely been "berated". If you've acted this way your whole life and me accurately pointing out the way you're acting in a dispassionate online discussion is the harshest response you've ever received then you have never been berated. "[I]ncluding people of all backgrounds" has nothing to do with allowing you to carry on with this sort of behavior.

If so much of your "work" on Wikipedia involves making other people educate you and undoing the work of others by engaging in activities like removing the information encoded in Unicode Roman numerals from articles, then exactly as Wikipedia:Disruptive editing § Failure or refusal to "get the point" says: no, I don't think you should be encouraged to do this "work" on Wikipedia. The "accidental" misunderstandings have been so constant in my interactions with you that no, I'm not just going to take for granted that your 100k edits represent something positive. (And btw, note also that you just faulted me for supposedly boasting of my own experience, but now you casually drop your edit numbers?)

Of course, I am following the "[f]ocus on improving the encyclopedia itself" part of WP:NOTCOMPULSORY to oppose your attempt to add a guideline rule mandating removal of information from articles. As usual, you are the one violating the P&G you're trying to cite in criticism of me—you're not simply mentioning in passing that working on a part of Wikipedia would be consistent with stated values as I did, you're trying to portray your RfC as something I want and repeatedly attempting to act as though I'm somehow obligated to do the work of making it neutral and compliant with P&G, instead of you! Just another repeated "accident" or "misunderstanding" in total violation of Wikipedia policy, I guess. --‿Ꞅtruthious 𝔹andersnatch ͡ |℡| 14:54, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

I certainly did not intend to portray you as being in favor of the proposal, and your position against seems pretty darn clear. I was asking you if you disagreed with it strongly enough that you wanted me, the proponent, to go to RFC, as opposed to simply letting it be added to the MOS or asking for early closure. If that was not clear to you, I apologize for wording that was hard to understand. I am happy to clarify that to anyone else who you think may have been confused about your opposition to this proposal.

I have never been under the impression you affirmed you "wanted to allow the proposal to be adopted despite disagreeing with it". I did ask if you felt that way, because I thought it would save a lot of time, and it's a common consensus-building technique I learned from my time living in an anarchist commune. If every time I ask a question like "do you believe X", you explode in anger at the lies being spread that you believe X, I'm not going to be able to discern your opinions and it will make reaching consensus that much harder.

You complained I'm "repeatedly attempting to act as though I'm somehow obligated to do the work of making it neutral". You are certainly not. Several times I have offered you the opportunity to do so in order to avoid later complaints that I wasn't actually neutral or that I'm trying to ram things through by force. It seems you had enough time to inspect the neutral summary for neutrality. If you have changed your mind and no longer want to write a summary of arguments against this proposal, you don't have to. If you want me to summarize your arguments for you, I'm happy to do so. If you want to run the RFC with that part blank, that would be weird given how many missives you've already written, but I would respect your wished. I just expected that if I summarized your arguments for you, no matter what I wrote you would consider it a moral outrage and an attempt to somehow rig the results of this very unimportant poll.

Yes, neutrality is required when starting formal RFCs and when advertising move requests off-page. I don't see how either of those implies that neutrality is required when starting a new talk thread on an MOS talk page. If you look at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style, for example, in some cases the thread starts because someone has no opinion and is asking for advice or pointers, but some start out with strong opinions or a specific proposal for an MOS change. I don't see anyone objecting that the latter violates some sort of policy or practice of always stating a neutral question when starting one of these threads. It seems obvious that my comments fall completely within the social norms of MOS talk pages, and this grievance that I've somehow violated a neutrality requirement does not make sense. Even if it did, I'd still find your accusation that I'm an "immoral" person with "a low character and unexamined social privilege" to be an outrageous personal attack not befitting the perceived offense, but the fact that I haven't even done anything wrong just makes it feel that much more like an undeserved slap in the face.

That fact that you think you have to use personal and condescending language to make your point with me or anyone else means that you have not committed to conducting a civil conversation, which is required by WP:CIVIL. Openness to dissenting perspectives does not necessarily mean agreeing with them. It means taking them seriously and evaluating them fairly. I sought out evidence to support your arguments, but ended up finding what I consider to be more evidence against. I solicited comments from other editors who might have agreed with you, but they didn't. I'm not claiming these are "virtuous", just that I'm being reasonable.

You said I want "want to mandate all other editors must follow your own wishes down to the choice of individual characters in writing Wikipedia articles". Well, they aren't my wishes alone, and the editors in favor of that have come up with literally a dozen considered reasons why, none of which are "to whimsically suppress the freedom of uppity editors" or "to ruin Struthious Bandersnatch's day". We are just trying to provide the best experience for readers, which happens in this case to involve squashing a practice you happen to favor. It happens. Some of the things I would prefer that Wikipedia do have also been squashed by consensus, and that's not a cosmic injustice I feel resentful or angry about.

You wrote: "As far as the accessibility issues being new to you—sorry, again, no—saying that to you, that the accessibility problems you bring up are clearly novel in your experience, is not a violation of WP:NPA. I can very easily demonstrate this to be true. You have demonstrated no intention whatsoever to appreciate any technical or usability arguments I've made, but have instead thrown everything against the wall in attempts to dismiss them to see what sticks; I'm not going to pretend that you've exhibited in-depth knowledge or precision or genuine concern about accessibility in the course of your campaign to force me to accept what you want by getting MOS:MATHS changed."

I never said this was a violation of WP:NPA, and even if it were true, it would still be, as I did say, "gratuitous and needlessly personal". I said "insulting the intelligence or experience of another editor is an unnecessary personal attack", and that's true even if the person who is the target of your attack is in fact less experienced than you, and has demonstrated that in the conversation. Doubling down on this attack indicates intentional incivility and more desire to be offensive than constructive with regard to the merits of the disagreement. Your treatment of me has not been a polite sharing of facts that would fill in gaps in my knowledge. If insults and personalized snark is how you "educate" a fellow engineer, I am very concerned at how you might treat a non-engineer in a similar situation, and the systemic bias that would introduce to participation in the project.

You wrote: "ease whatever pangs of conscience may have brought you to my UTP." To be clear, what brought me here was your offensive personal language and false accusations that I've violated Wikipedia policies. My conscience is clear. Excepting, of course, the gratuitous amount of chocolate I've eaten this month.

You've complained that I've made "uncited generalized pronouncements about the efficiency and operation of NLP systems, even after a month of discussion still not bothering to cite these things in your proposed RfC text." This is an odd complaint. I cited three examples of real-world systems which I think could benefit from the proposal, but you haven't cited any, and your claim that avoiding "destroying information" benefits NLP systems is just as "uncited" as my speculation that maybe it wouldn't. The discussion is not an article; there is no policy or guideline requirement for citations. If other editors don't trust our expertise or don't find our reasoning persuasive on their own, and find our lack of citations to make our arguments dubious, then so be it. They can come to their own conclusions accordingly. If other experts or even non-experts disagree, I'm happy to read that and likewise come to my own conclusions.

You wrote "(And btw, note also that you just faulted me for supposedly boasting of my own experience, but now you casually drop your edit numbers?)". What I said above was "Explaining your own background like 'but as I said I've been doing this since the last century' is helpful" which is encouraging, not faulting, what you call "boasting". Disclosing your background can help save time and awkwardness compared to letting other editors assume that you are naive or have no background in the field in question.

-- Beland (talk) 02:06, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

White Americans

See the recent POV edits there. Think that person may be the guy on the talk page saying he'll fight his block? Earth's gate (talk) 19:22, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

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Mentioned you

Hi, I mentioned you at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#"white people" and historical editing on Wiki as an editor appeared to be commenting on your editing albeit without naming you. Nil Einne (talk) 16:58, 9 April 2022 (UTC)

toast sandwich

toast sandwich Rosedaler (talk) 07:44, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

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EIN template link gives 404 IRS result

Hello Struthious Bandersnatch, I've noticed that following the link generated by the EIN template now gets a 404 result (https://www.irs.gov/404). Assume it's caused by a change by the IRS but is it something that can be fixed here? Gab4gab (talk) 15:35, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

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A goat for you!

Thanks for that bellow image lol I was reading some pascal's old text and that was really useful

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