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Production car definition draft

G'day Stepho.

Given that I'm seen by some as a contentious figure (posting rules that the company I work for would be subject to on the page), I thought I would run this draft past someone who isn't contentious prior to posting it there. Basically, I've taken the definition that NealeFamily started with and made some tweaks to cover various things that have been discussed.

I figured it would be better to hone it before posting to minimise the chances of not achieving consensus.

Thoughts? Questions?

For the purposes of this list a production car is defined as:

1) A vehicle that is constructed principally for retail sale to consumers, for their personal use, to transport people on public roads (no commercial or industrial vehicles are eligible);

2) A vehicle that is available for commercial sale to the public via an authorised dealer network in the same specification as the vehicle used to achieve the record;

3) i) A vehicle manufactured in the record-claiming specification by a manufacturer whose WMI number is shown on the VIN, or ii) A vehicle that is modified by either professional tuners or others that results in a VIN with a WMI number in that professional tuner’s name (for example, if a Porsche-based car is remanufactured by RUF and has RUF's WMI W09, it is eligible; but if it has Porsche's WMI, WP0, it is not eligible);

4) A vehicle that is street-legal in its intended markets, having fulfilled the homologation tests or inspections required under either a) United States of America, or b) European Union law, to be granted this status.

5) A vehicle that is sold in more than one national market, subject to the conditions noted elsewhere in this definition

StevenWade (talk) 19:34, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

I didn't think you were contentious. You were upfont about your COI, polite, answered questions when asked and not pushy.
The definition above is fine for me with the possible exception of clause 4 if Japan makes a supercar and doesn't sell it outside of Japan. Kind of tricky to specify a good rule for this that leaves out some countries that register anything given enough cash.  Stepho  talk  23:04, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
I'll post it on the talk page, then. And in the meantime, I might ask our homologation manager about the circumstances you mentioned, re Japan. I know we sell there, but I'm unsure as to homologation regime that allows us to do so. i.e. does Japan have its own regime or does it basically rely on EU standards like the rest of Asia.StevenWade (talk) 23:56, 14 January 2018 (UTC)

Template:NOx

My thought in changing the documentation for Template:NOx to include an example {{NOx|x=<var>z</var>}} is to remind users to use variable syntax / italics when the template argument is a variable rather than a number. If you too think this is worthy would you undo your undo or otherwise modify the documentation accordingly? 64.132.59.226 (talk) 14:47, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

Not the of the world as we know it but just the end of the Agera RS :-)

Hi.

Sorry about the revert, I must have read totally wrong and reverted in the wrong section. Will try to recreate it.

Sijambo (talk) 18:18, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

Or rather, there was one add of the end of all of Koenigsegg Agera, it was not originally created by you but the reverted edit added information to that link and all of that was removed because there are still Agera FEs produced. But when reverting I missed you also fixed an error in the correct period of Agera RS and that one should not have been removed. But some else have already fixed it. But once again sorry about that.

Sijambo (talk) 18:24, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

No problem, thanks for the reply.  Stepho  talk  23:13, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

Hello!

Hey, Stepho, before an edit war or anything starts between us repeatedly changing images on electric vehicle pages, do you think we could find a way to contact eachother? Thanks --- LordLimaBean (talk) 02:08, 22 April 2018 (UTC)

I prefer to use the discussion page at talk:Electric car. However, an internet search on 'Stepho' and 'Toyota' will find my web site with my email address. Forgive me if I seem a bit grouchy on this issue. I've had the same discussion so many times in the past and each time the opposition arguments boiled down to an American editor saying 'I like Tesla and I hate small European cars'. It gets a bit frustrating trying to apply reason to what is at heart an emotional argument. Nevertheless, I will always listen to well reasoned points.  Stepho  talk  09:04, 22 April 2018 (UTC)

Hi. Thank you for your recent edits. An automated process has detected that when you recently edited Toyota concept vehicles, 2010–19, you added links pointing to the disambiguation pages Tamiya and Toyota GB (check to confirm | fix with Dab solver). Such links are usually incorrect, since a disambiguation page is merely a list of unrelated topics with similar titles. (Read the FAQ • Join us at the DPL WikiProject.)

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 Fixed.  Stepho  talk  13:33, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

Removal of MY information from infoboxes and other stuff by a random IP

Hi, as you do a lot of editing on car related articles here is a bunch of words on your talk page.

You might, or might not, have noticed a random IP "going around" and deleting MY from infoboxes, replacing with
in infoboxes, changing the years listed in section headlines (in most cases from the actual year date to the MY date) among a few other things. It's been very damaging to articles. One particular interest to the person editing seems to be the usage of liftback vs hatchback vs whatever else term there is; and what segment a vehicle is in e.g. full-size, mid-size and so on.
Not every edit is wrong however a lot of them are at least discussion worthy before editing. Is there a good way to protect the articles? I am aware that as a random IP myself this is probably a bit strange but it is what it is. The random IP I am complaining about is from the Atlanta region, at least all of the previous IPs were.

regards, 2A04:4540:901:E700:D5EB:E3E2:4CAB:F587 (talk) 20:27, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

Unfortunately the "anyone can edit" nature of WP leaves us open to vandalism. If the vandal (or misguided editor if we are being generous) hits a particular page often then we can semi-protect that page for a week (only registered editors can edit). Otherwise, all we can do is to be vigilant and clean up after them.  Stepho  talk  21:45, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

Musk and "S3X" comment

You said: "Regarding your recent edits at Tesla Model 3. The reference says "Elon Musk wanted to name his Model 3 Model E so Tesla's brands would spell SEX". He may have had "SEXY" in mind but this is WP:SYNTHESIS, which is not allowed at WP. You would have to find a public reference that actually says he wanted them to spell "SEXY". Stepho talk 23:14, 3 May 2018 (UTC)" If you line up the model names of Tesla cars the result is "SEXY". This is all public reference. There are also multiple public quotes taken from Musk's speeches where he says that he intended to name today's model "3" as "E". this is all public knowledge. You can ignore the fact that he had all these in his mind as well. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DarkoELP (talk • contribs) 20:01, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

The article only gives a single reference for "S3X". That reference does not mention "S3XY". If you want the article to say "S3XY" then you need to add a reference that says so. Since you say this is common knowledge then it should not be hard to find such a reference and add it to the page.  Stepho  talk  21:16, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

Dates

So ... you held your own private RfC without notifying the styleguides. Your only argument there seemed to be "that it's been like that for a long time", which is a very weak proposition.

Now, if you're so keen to keep your blessed ISO dates in the refs (I can't believe the obsession) are you going to fix all of the MOS-breaching date links (manually)? Because if you're not, you're perpetrating a direct breach of the guidelines. Tony (talk) 12:21, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

Actually, I posted the RFC at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Automobiles#Rfc on reference date format at 'Tesla Model S', Wikipedia talk:Citing sources#Rfc on reference date format at 'Tesla Model S' and Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers#Rfc on reference date format at 'Tesla Model S'. Note those last two. But I'm quite happy to discuss it at Talk:Telstar#Date format in article text and references.  Stepho  talk  13:29, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
Apologies, those RFC links have been archived and should be Wikipedia talk:Citing sources/Archive_43#Rfc on reference date format at 'Tesla Model S' and Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive_157#Rfc on reference date format at 'Tesla Model S'.  Stepho  talk  13:29, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for you !

Hi Stepho

Many thanks for your message back in 2016- see copy below. I'm still a novice on Wiki and I've only just worked out how to send you a message of thanks. I agree with you point about consistency. Interesting too, learning that '×' symbol is different to "x".

Cheers for all your work on the Toyota Hilux wiki,

regards

richard

Thank you for your recent change to Toyota Hilux. However, the previous example was '4×2' (note the middle character is not a simple 'x') and you added '4x4' with a simple 'x'. Wikipedia will look more professional if we keep it consistent. You can get the '×' character by either cut and pasting from the previous example in the article or by clicking on the insert special character buttons just below the edit summary line. Thanks. Stepho talk 02:21, 18 October 2016 (UTC)


Eco-climber (talk) 20:49, 15 July 2018 (UTC)

You're welcome. Please feel free to ask any questions.  Stepho  talk  21:14, 15 July 2018 (UTC)

Edit warring

Please stop edit warring, You have an issue with my date changes (and that's fine) but you should change the dates back not wholesale revert all of my constructive edits all because you have an issue with one minor/trivial thing,
You're more than welcome to revert back to a revision and then apply all of my edits thereafter,
Thanks, –Davey2010Talk 19:35, 4 August 2018 (UTC)

See my comments at Talk:Toyota Celica#Reference date format.  Stepho  talk  19:44, 4 August 2018 (UTC)

Avensis discontinued

Hello. This is proofs for Yours, that Avensis is discontinued.

Best regards, 2018 year Toyota Avensis owner.

https://www.toyota.co.uk/ https://www.toyota.ie/ https://www.independent.ie/life/motoring/car-news/hybrid-camry-here-next-year-as-toyota-phases-out-avensis-37053127.html https://www.yahoo.com/news/toyota-announces-end-avensis-production-151032617.html?guccounter=1 https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/british-built-toyota-avensis-future-doubt-due-slowing-sales https://www.carscoops.com/2018/08/toyota-avensis-dropped-uk-camry-hybrid-coming-next-year/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.7.28.37 (talk) 02:52, 20 August 2018 (UTC)

Thank you for that proof. Can you insert those into the Avensis article. Don't worry about mistakes, I will tidy up afterwards, if needed. Thanks.  Stepho  talk  09:44, 20 August 2018 (UTC)

Thank you! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Markkonen (talk • contribs) 22:59, 21 August 2018 (UTC)

Toyota identification

Not for the first time, I find I have uploaded a picture without being quite sure what the picture was of. I need to invoke the help of an expert. I wonder if you might find a moment to check out (1) the category in which I placed it and (2) the note I placed on the page concerning its name. If necessary, please can you correct my error(s). I've seen these cars around here in Europe - though never very often - for years. I find the design pleasingly coherent. More pleasant on the eye than the notchback (booted) equivalent. But I still find the naming thing perplexing.

Thank you (if you applied them) for any thoughts/corrections/improvements. Regards Charles01 (talk) 14:07, 22 August 2018 (UTC)

It wasn't sold in my home of Australia, so I only have second hand knowledge of it. When the Corona switched from the RWD T140 to the FWD T150, Toyota also merged the Corona and Carina lines. Often the T150 was sold in Asia as a Corona and in Europe as the Carina, with only minor detail differences. Very soon after, the T160 also swallowed the Celica line (the T160 Corona coupe and the T160 Celica coupe are identical apart from littel trim details).
Your picture doesn't show a badge but it has a Germany number plate, so I would assume it is an AT151 Carina.
The Carina II name seems to have been introduced with the T170 in 1987, although this is also second hand knowledge for me and I generally only follow RWD cars. Mr.choppers (talk · contribs) is from Europe and likes Toyota's, so perhaps he can confirm or deny the Carina II name. I have also asked the question at Talk:Toyota Corona#Carina II name.  Stepho  talk  22:41, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
Hi guys! The Carina II name was indeed introduced with the T150, although it was not used fully - about half the time, it is just referred to as Carina. According to Automobil Revue, the "Carina II" name was used in some export markets. German pricelists include the "II," and almost all T150 Carinas sold there are indeed the 1.6. This looks like a 84-85 1.6 GL (AT151 indeed). It is a pre-facelift, which was never offered with any other engine there, but the facelift was so light that I am still not quite sure what it entailed. See this page for more.  Mr.choppers | ✎  01:53, 23 August 2018 (UTC)
Many thanks to you both. It was indeed photographed in Germany, in a hospital car park which we were visiting for sentimental reasons. Back in the day there were quite a few of these cars (and of the notchback version) around in the Netherlands and in Germany where I lived or visited frequently at various points during the 1990s. I changed the license plate on the image for the usual anonymisation reasons, but left the "-H" on the right of the number which in Germany denotes old timer status ("H" for Historical), which confers certain tax privileges. I have updated the note on the image page in accordance with your information and clarifications, and I have copied your link, Mr.c, to the schedule setting out the various codes with reassuring teutonic clarity. Feel free to improve on what I wrote, but to me it looks like "job done" in broad terms. Thank you again. Best wishes Charles01 (talk) 08:00, 24 August 2018 (UTC)

To answer your statement about the VW emission scandal

List of scandals with "-gate" suffix - User talk:Naraht

Thank you for the link. Still seems stupid to me, but it is what it is.  Stepho  talk  22:11, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

WikiProject Automobiles Comment Comment

Dear Sir/Madam, I notice that you are an active contributor to the above mentioned project and thought I should bring this matter to the projects attention. During a new page patrol I reviewed an article Renault Kangoo (Argentina) I didn't think the Argentinian model warrants it's own article so sent it to AfD here [[1]]. The author had previously been warned and blocked and has subsequently been indefinitely blocked. Worryingly they had made quite an amount of edits/re-directs/deleting re-directs to auto related pages (see here [[2]]) As I am no expert in this field I trust you could check out, or know an editor that could check out, the legitimacy of the edits this author made before their ban. Kind regards and best wishes from Ireland XyzSpaniel Talk Page 18:50, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

Better to post this at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles.  Stepho  talk  21:50, 3 September 2018 (UTC)
Thanks and done XyzSpaniel Talk Page 22:00, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

V8

Because a 6 cylinder engine will have bigger cylinders and/or longer stroke than a V8 with the same displacement. 1 cylinder engines have the biggest possible torque potential for any given displacement. The more cylinders an engine has, the bigger the potential for much hp, simply because it can turn faster. The limit may not exist in real life simply because trucks dont normally have that heavy loads and when they dont the engine with more hp at that rpm range gets on top of the hill first. Why do you think this is a product of "own reason" ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rolling Phantom (talk • contribs) 18:39, 12 October 2018 (UTC)

I have responded on the article's talk page at Talk:V8 engine#v8 vs inline-6.  Stepho  talk  06:05, 13 October 2018 (UTC)

Electric car lead image

Hi Stepho-wrs. I have just proposed several collage options for the image in the lead, with the criteria justifying each (summarizing most of what has been said during the last years), and made the bold move to place one in the article just to provoke more participation in the discussion, to see if we can close this discussion once and for all. Please, you have a very NPOV, moderate the discussion, I will drop by from time to time (now I am working more on photography in the Commons than editing here). Cheers.--Mariordo (talk) 18:05, 21 October 2018 (UTC)

No.

Hi. Please explain where it says that it is inappropriate to use the abbreviation "No.", as you imply in your recent edit to Lamborghini Huracá‎n GhostOfDanGurney (talk) 14:39, 9 November 2018 (UTC)

MOS:ORDINAL. For many readers, English is their second language. Why make it hard for them when you can write "number" ? Also, when something is in contention, it is better to have a discussion and then afterwards make the page match whatever was agreed on. See WP:BRD for more details. This discourages 2 editors continuously reverting each other.  Stepho  talk  22:32, 9 November 2018 (UTC)

IP-hopping editor with an attitude problem

Over the past month or so, I've encountered an IP-hopping user who has been making dubious edits on numerous automotive articles, insisting that he is correct and all other editors are not. My issue with him is that he continues to use incorrect links to automotive classes and layouts on his edits. The other issue is that he has a habit of using proxy servers, making cleanup very tricky. Here are some of the IPs he's used:

I'm not sure if we should open an SPI on this user, as we need to trace the very first IP he used. - Areaseven (talk) 07:42, 2 October 2018 (UTC)

There isn't much we can do about someone who edits so many pages and changes IP address so often. We can only keep reverting them until they eventually get bored of being ineffectual.  Stepho  talk  10:34, 2 October 2018 (UTC)
Stepho-wrs Areaseven I have already made a SPI with the current IPs of this person Here He pestered on my talkpage as well. They already tried to revert edits on it. --Vauxford (talk) 22:40, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
talk:Vauxford, I just had a spot check of his edits (at least for Toyota articles). They are not outright vandalism - in fact many of his edits have a good point. It looks more like an anon-IP who isn't familiar with our processes and is a bit, shall we say, enthusiastic for his own view point. Encourage him to discuss on the talk page and we may get another good editor.  Stepho  talk  01:59, 17 November 2018 (UTC)

Toyota Avalon unsourced edits

Hey there, I need your help please because someone who edited Toyota Avalon that information is completely unsourced, I don't want the page causes edit warring and I keep reverting that again! So I think you can help me to complain that! As you like Toyota cars so much! thanks (unsigned, by 124.217.189.187)

To the anon-IP editors who keep deleting this section. Be aware that I look at each and every edit to this page, so you are not hinding anything but you are annoying me. I'm not likely to support your cause if you annoy me.  Stepho  talk  03:47, 17 November 2018 (UTC)
To 124.217.189.187, I am watching the Avalon page. I've been busy the last couple of days but I will get to both the made in China question and the mid-size vs full-size question. I will address these on the Avalon talk page.  Stepho  talk  03:47, 17 November 2018 (UTC)

ArbCom 2018 election voter message

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Toyota VD engine

You had tried to move the page Toyota VD Engine to Toyota VD engine earlier, but it was reverted. Will you make an appeal for a title swap (again)? I support you for this case. 202.58.170.122 (talk) 03:16, 10 December 2018 (UTC)

Land Cruiser

Someone has tried to move the content of Toyota Land Cruiser to Toyota Land Cruiser 200 (again). The reason of his edits is that "there are multiple vehicles bearing "Land Cruiser" name, it is not fair to automatically redirect to only one of them". It is also stated that he will make a disambiguation page of the car. I had reverted the edits to make an opening for a discussion first. What do you think about this?202.58.170.122 (talk) 03:10, 10 December 2018 (UTC)

Yeah, he made a big mess of it last time and it took us ages to clean it up. Thank you for restoring it. Toyota Land Cruiser is meant to cover the entire range - including the big version (currently covered by the 200 series), the Prado and the workhorse 70. It does this just fine. Whereas the 200 is only a single generation of the big model, so Toyota Land Cruiser 200 cannot cover the entire LC history. I think this is a case of a guy thinking that what applies in his single country at the current moment must also be true for all other countries and for all of history - which of course isn't true.  Stepho  talk  22:50, 10 December 2018 (UTC)

Help with Typ932

Hello, I'm currently having issues with Typ932 whom is displaying signs of WP:OWNBEHAVIOR. They continue to revert edits on Alfa Romeo GT when I've aligned the table on the article to using the standard wikitable & the use of {{ubl}} for situations where there is multiple items listed for a parameter in the infobox. The editor claims that other Alfa Romeo articles also use this non-standard table color scheme, but I'm failing to see this. In addition, I've seen the past an W: article that state just because one article something one way, doesn't mean you have to do the same. Basically that each article should stand on its own & follow the general Wikipedia "article flow". (I'm having issues finding this article again, if it still exists.) You've seemed very welcome to my cleanups to automobile articles in the past & I was hoping you can assist me in the issue. Thanks for your time.  #FF9600  talk 17:09, 1 December 2018 (UTC)

I have initiated a discussion at Talk:Alfa_Romeo_GT#Formatting. WP:BRD suggests that discussion is often the best way forward when editors have different opinions. Also beware of WP:CANVASING, where you only invite editors that are likely to support your side. The better way to is to present it in a neutral fashion on the article talk page. If this has no luck then ask the conflicting editor some polite questions on his talk page. If this doesn't work than present the dilemma in a neutral fashion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Automobiles or similar project page.  Stepho  talk  23:44, 1 December 2018 (UTC)
And Im not sure who is displaying signs of WP:OWNBEHAVIOR, me or him. Its not good idea to chnage one car model article, because it can affect thousands of articles, and the goal is have similar style in car articles. And as I said there is really no need to those table changes at all, its much better looking than those standard huge tables, which breaks clean page style. If you insinst then "fix" ALL pages, we dont need that every second page looks different -->Typ932 T·C 08:19, 2 December 2018 (UTC)
Better to place comments at Talk:Alfa_Romeo_GT#Formatting so that other editors can contribute to the discussion. I'm not going to blame either of you for ownership, I'd rather have you both talking and reaching common ground.  Stepho  talk  08:33, 2 December 2018 (UTC)
Not, most editors dont read just one model page, right place is editors talk page, or WP:automobiles, and I dont see any reason to discuss it more, untill we have all car model pages in similar style, or we start editing them to look same. There is no reason to change just one page, and make it look different than others. -->Typ932 T·C 14:50, 2 December 2018 (UTC)
You two have a disagreement and need other editors to help you reach a compromise (since both of you claim you are right and that the other is exhibiting ownership). That means you need a discussion in a common area that all people interested in the Alfa Romeo GT can easily see. Which makes Talk:Alfa_Romeo_GT#Formatting the ideal place. Or we can have a scavenger hunt where we have to get clues about the disagreement scattered across various user pages while also playing the edit war game. Personally I'd rather have a conversation in a centralised place that allows people interested in the article make suggestions. People interested in the article will have it on their watchlist and will be notified automatically.  Stepho  talk  21:14, 2 December 2018 (UTC)
People who are intrested about wikitables are not reading one certain car model page (not sure even how many persons from WP:Automobiles is following one certain page) , and as said I already said all what I has to say to mr FF, hes claims are just wrong as explained to him many times. -->Typ932 T·C 13:52, 11 December 2018 (UTC)
Many times? I see one explanation on his talk page and no other explanations anywhere. And that explantion is only half-hearted. But I do see many mentions of you saying that you have alreay explained it to him. Obvious it didn't sink in or he disagrees. It would be great if you could articulate once more in a public forum so that he and others can respond - either by counterpoint or further questions. The best place for this is on the article talk page - not scattered across personal talk pages. If you think it is a wider spread problem then leave a note at the automobile project pointing to the Alfa page.  Stepho  talk  22:33, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

Talk pages

Why you left messages for me in car model article, that message you send is more like private messaging, it doesnt belong to car model article and I dont have edit war mr FF has or he doesnt understands what is said to him -->Typ932 T·C 13:45, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

Not quite. I want you to respond on the article's talk page and articulate your reasons in a manner that all interested parties can read and respond. Other people besides us 3 may be interested but hiding away on personal talk pages discourages corroboration.  Stepho  talk  22:45, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

Mark X discontinuation

Someone has edited the Toyota Mark X page that it will be discontinued in 2019. Is it actually true? 36.78.64.85 (talk) 13:44, 20 December 2018 (UTC)

Not that I know of. Big changes like that require proof, so we can just revert it until such proof is provided.  Stepho  talk  22:38, 20 December 2018 (UTC)
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