User talk:Salt12352

July 2024[edit]

Before adding a category to an article, as you did to System Shock, please make sure that the subject of the article really belongs in the category that you specified according to Wikipedia's categorization guidelines. The category being added must already exist, and must be supported by the article's verifiable content. Categories may be removed if they are deemed incorrect for the subject matter. Thank you. soetermans. ^{↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK} 10:49, 2 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Please note that categorisation is for Wikipedia's purposes. If a video game is listed under the category of horror, it should be mentioned in the article body somewhere. Please provide reliable sources first and then add the category. soetermans. ^{↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK} 10:54, 2 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It does belong, you are the one who doesn't understand what horror means and you think you can confuse me by citing Wikipedia guidelines and demanding citations when none of the other categories have required them. Genres and categories do not require citations. There are also plenty of video games categorized as horror on Wikipedia that doesn't mention that they're horror games anywhere in the article just like some games in the "immersive sims" category.

Define "horror" objectively without using subjective anecdotes such as "I didn't think it was scary or disturbing" if you're so sure of yourself or state your reasons for why you don't think System Shock or BioShock are horror games.

FYI, I did provide a "reliable source" by citing Nightdive's own page for the System Shock remake that categorizes it as a horror game, but you already saw that. Salt12352 (talk) 11:07, 2 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You are definitely taking the wrong tone with "you are the one who doesn't understand what horror means". Please be civil. You have 15 edits to your name and have been here a little over two weeks. Read WP:CATDEF please. Do not add categories because you think it belongs there. soetermans. ^{↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK} 11:42, 2 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Here are my "citations":

https://web.archive.org/web/19970330142937/http://www.origin.ea.com/english/prod-info/pc-cd/classics/system-shock/index.html (this is Origin's page, the publisher of the original game)

https://www.eurogamer.net/nightdives-acclaimed-system-shock-remake-headinf-to-consoles-in-may

https://screenrant.com/system-shock-remake-consoles-story-gameplay-release-date/

https://bloody-disgusting.com/video-games/3803636/nightdives-system-shock-remake-will-finally-hit-playstation-and-xbox-consoles-on-may-21-trailer/

https://www.pcgamer.com/see-system-shock-in-glorious-720p/

https://www.nightdivestudios.com/portfolio/system-shock/

Most of these articles are regarding the remake, but every single one of these refers to the 1994 release as a sci-fi horror game and as for Nightdive's page, if you want to be technical about it, it's about the remake, but they mention how they want to keep the game true to the classic experience and it is pretty much a 1:1 remake. Origin's own product page isn't as literal about it, but the description speaks for itself.

Here's the fandom page for the game that also has it listed as a horror game: https://shodan.fandom.com/wiki/System_Shock

And here are the store pages for both the original and the remake that also categorizes them both as horror games:

https://store.steampowered.com/app/482400/System_Shock/

https://store.steampowered.com/app/410710/System_Shock_Enhanced_Edition/

https://www.gog.com/en/game/system_shock_enhanced_edition (only store page that doesn't have the horror tag, but the remake does)

https://www.gog.com/en/game/system_shock

This Looking Glass page describes it as just a "science fiction adventure", but where's the action part? According to your logic, this means that it's no longer an action game because the "official source" doesn't mention it: https://web.archive.org/web/19980209140515/http://www.lglass.com/c_info/dark_pr.html

I guess this means we should remove it from the action-adventure category, right?

Btw, Looking Glass describes Thief as an RPG numerous times on various of their pages, but on its official product page it's categorized as an action-adventure where SS is referred to as an RPG as well despite having literally zero RPG elements: https://web.archive.org/web/19980209132458/http://www.lglass.com/p_info/dark/index.html

That good enough for you? Or do you want to drag an admin into this? Salt12352 (talk) 17:25, 2 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The use of "Sci Fi horror" in most of those sources is referring to the narrative genre, but not the gameplay genre which is what we use as genre when talking about video games. System Shock and Bioshock have very little elements of what are considered horror games as a game genre. That they have aspects if the horror narrative is absolutely true but that's not what we consider for video games. — Masem (t) 17:54, 2 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Masem (talk · contribs) happens to be an admin. Please stop your disruptive editing. soetermans. ^{↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK} 18:23, 2 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's not a disruptive editing. I keep providing sources and back up my arguments, neither of you wants to accept them and now you're admitting to corrupt behavior, but I'm still going to ask for a second opinion even though I've already lost, not because I was wrong, but because the person I was arguing with happens to be in a position of power. Salt12352 (talk) 18:57, 2 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What do you think psychological horror means for video games exactly? In the case of "walking simulators" they're technically adventure games, so it's just a narrative genre. Survival horror is the only video game genre that's defined by its mechanics. You're not making the point you think you're making. Neither psychological nor survival horror are the only type of horror genres in gaming and therefore a game being a first person shooter or an action adventure game doesn't stop them from also being horror games as well. The main genre of System Shock is action-adventure/FPS and for BioShock it's FPS. This doesn't change even if they're also categorized as horror games, but you're very fixated on this which I can only see as an attempt to move the goalpost since I provided you with those sources you asked for, you just don't want to accept that you were wrong. No genre is mutually exclusive.

I'll tell you why System Shock and BioShock are horror games. For System Shock, you wake up all alone in a space station that's been overtaken by a hostile AI whose turning everyone she can find into grotesque mutants and cyborgs, there's a ton of mutilated corpses spread throughout the Citadel Station, and the audio logs you find provides you with a clear image of what happened and what's happening and what's going to happen to humanity if you fail to stop SHODAN. There are numerous points throughout the game that have dark areas, flickering lights and cold, sterile steel colors especially once you get out of level 1. Even though there are numerous upbeat tracks as well, there are also a few ambient ones, but this was fixed in the remake which is all ambience so that's another point in it's favor for why it's a horror game.

For BioShock it's much the same. You find yourself alone in an underwater city that's lying in ruins, whose inhabitants were all turned into rabid junkies looking to kill anyone they see so they can get their fix and then there's the "cyborgs" too aka the Big Daddies. Mindless abominations, people who've had their skin and organs grafted onto a diving suit, forever wandering the halls of a derelict city to protect little girls who look for dead bodies so they can harvest the "narcotics" that turned Rapture into decay to begin with. It's not just a simple sci-fi dystopian setting. It's mostly all quiet throughout the levels unless ancient 1900s music is playing on a nearby gramophone and almost every place on the map is darkened due to broken lights and the underwater sea just outside the windows being very dark of course.

These are not "elements of horror". The goal and presentation of each of these games is clearly to evoke a sense of dread and terror and disturbing you and that's what defines a genre, not in how much it did or didn't affect any individual person.

Let me ask you this: do you find "Friends" the TV show funny? If no, then does that mean it's no longer a sitcom? Why is this so different for horror exactly? Is it the action? Is action horror no longer a thing now? Both horror and comedy is subjective, but genres are not defined by subjectivity.

Anyway, it doesn't look like you'll ever agree with me and it's just a waste of time continuing any further so I'm going to ask for a second opinion. Salt12352 (talk) 18:54, 2 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You seem to not wanting to understand what a category is and rather discuss what is a horror game. A category is for organising Wikipedia articles. If there is zero mention in a video game article about it being a horror game, it shouldn't be included in that category. That's it. There's no point in discussing what is or isn't horror. It only matters if it is mentioned properly somewhere in the article. Your own opinion, thoughts and analyses don't matter. And neither do mine.

Masem already stepped in, who reverted you as well. You have also been reverted by IceWelder. Feel free to ask for input though. soetermans. ^{↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK} 19:34, 2 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Masem@Soetermans you both have been taken to ANI but not by name. Doug Weller talk 19:35, 2 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Your recent editing history at System Shock shows that you are currently engaged in an edit war; that means that you are repeatedly changing content back to how you think it should be, when you have seen that other editors disagree. To resolve the content dispute, please do not revert or change the edits of others when you are reverted. Instead of reverting, please use the talk page to work toward making a version that represents consensus among editors. The best practice at this stage is to discuss, not edit-war; read about how this is done. If discussions reach an impasse, you can then post a request for help at a relevant noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, you may wish to request temporary page protection.

Being involved in an edit war can result in you being blocked from editing—especially if you violate the three-revert rule, which states that an editor must not perform more than three reverts on a single page within a 24-hour period. Undoing another editor's work—whether in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material each time—counts as a revert. Also keep in mind that while violating the three-revert rule often leads to a block, you can still be blocked for edit warring—even if you do not violate the three-revert rule—should your behavior indicate that you intend to continue reverting repeatedly. Bishonen | tålk 19:52, 2 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Dispute resolution[edit]

Wikipedia has several methods of dispute resolution. I suggest you post a request for comments on each of the talk pages of the video games that you want to label. Phrase the initial question neutrally, such as "should X be called a horror game?" or "should X have the horror game category added" or whatever. Don't include arguments for this point of view in the question. Then, post your vote, and include your arguments there. Or if all that sounds too complicated, I guess I (or another experienced user) could help you with it. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 00:39, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]