User talk:Roshyf2

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Stop Disruptive edits

Citing the church website for your understandings while discarding scholarly books is not a good practice. Church websites always and only promote their own preference. Mostly the history says Abraham Malpan as troubled man. Though always opportunistic. He had conflicts about his own faith and ordination. Second ordination and the subsequent fines for this is a historical truth. Lack of conviction seeded by Anglican missionaries in his own faith system is also seen as a basis for Reformation movement. Many of his reformations especially conducting holy communion in native language was take en up by opposing factions in future as mentioned by a previous church father - changes in the right moment. It is also worthwhile to notify that the first reformation started by 1818 after 18 years of service and problems, he took up again the reformation idea before loosing his face in the society from suspension of religious duties(not excommunicated)- as a priest excommunication, laicizing or suspension from religious duties is a grave misfortune and dismissal of students who were thought under him. Many historians even say Malpan planned for Restoration than Reformation. Statements like Malpan realised...so he sent all denotes that Malpan had the authority yo sent Deacon Mathew for Consecreation...there you are misinformed. It is just an over-magnification of the incident. Even stating he recited prayers in malayalam by looking into a syriac thaksa.. . qualifies for the extempore act. But Ara doesn't mean that, It simply means shortened version.(based on the published material, and you yourself say that). But that doesn't mean the current liturgy is termed as AraKurbana. It is much revised and standardized version. If the statement "The glass is half full" is considered as ridiculous then only ....The citations from the former sabha secretary and vicar general specify like many other materials the protestant theology and the influence of Anglican missionaries in spearheading the Reformation movement.(For your convenience this couldn't be taken lightly) Further reform group evolutions are cleared, Church websites are not only the basis of history. News paper articles, scholarly books, other parallel literature...etc is all considered as worthy material. It is better to stay away from further reversions and edit war, and keep the existed and accepted material as it is. The wikipedia doesn't work whether if you accept the scholarly data's or not. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.92.30.198 (talk) 12:10, 30 December 2015 (UTC)

Earlier notice given on talk page

1. reformation movement(the movement)=cleansing was the promoted (process)

2. that was inspired through the contacts with British Anglican missionaries. You may compare the similarities of theological similarity with the many reformation stemmed ideologies Given in the text cited and known accepted fact, don't interpret for opinions. But this doesn't mean any of the reformations instituted aren't valid. It is unique in its changes it brought out, which was from a longitudinal study. But theologically Reformation based ideologies. However, in the current period of stasis the church is going back in its principles to pre-reformative standards. (But that's an other matter and opinion)

3. ridiculed=misconception and personal opinion. it doesn't mean the current Liturgy is in any manner of poor quality. It is a revised and standardized version. Perspectives from dependents of a church, always seem to glorify and Wikipedia is not the space for it. A clear example is given below.

4. antagonist=misconception and poor or misguided historical grip. For more idea research about Mar Thoma XII.(Have to approach libraries) It is even ridiculous to think that then head of the syrian church (patriarch) accepted the changes that Malpan instituted and supported for reformation by disdaining their own belief system that was practised in India. Mar Thoma XII suffered from a lot of health issues, this is stated in the history books. He was abdicated only when he was bed-ridden. Read biographies for this. Read also about the Deed of Submission that was instituted after the Consecration of Deacon Mathew. You also yourself cite parts of the reason for this prompting of sending Deacon Mathew - To save public face, but you construct and interpret wrongly for your own needs. This is just a citing of the logical inaccuracy you have convinced through non-academic or non-critical texts. For more understanding you may have to turn to hard copy books, many are out of print but major libraries of the church have them.

5. Malankara Jacobite Syriac Orthodox Church=Though was sent as the bishop of Malankara church, Mathews Mar Athanasius Metropolitan is considered as one their bishops, Not of Jacobite Syrian Christian Church, they explicitly claim he was excommunicated(however no such data exists and matter of discussion for other times) for later being turncoat with Abraham Malpan. Changing this is from a misguided historical grip and diminishes the clarity.

6. reform groups were also evolved from Marthoma Church=Historically important and accepted by the evolved groups itself. Published material exists and cite as such. Just because some people or you doesn't validate their existence, isn't a criteria for avoiding a historical truth.

7. an ancient Syriac church community (Not that ancient in origin as marthomites, but considered as such in spirit from legacy)=denomination, check dictionary - It is an alternative term to describe church and Government of India denotes the church as such. Though this flattery words are include in later parts of the article.

Censoring and Original research are not a part of Wikipedia policy. We hope your concerns are cleared. (undid wrong history edict.....please don't propagate and publish wrong history for your own needs)

61.1.217.189 (talk) 17:10, 4 January 2016 (UTC)

Counter

there are many misconceptions and personal opinions generated or accused aganist the edit /revision made. all are answerable only.

1. citing the church website is for your cognizance and understanding. the narration which you are quoting is no true and seen any where in history books. a) Marthoma 7 was ill ,so it necessitated the abraham malpan to sent his nephew to antioch is unheard else where .it is a well known fact that after conducting the qurbana in Malayalam and instituting other changes in maramaon parish Cheppaud divaniyos banned maramon parish from communion with other malankara churches.Moreover the deacons who were taught under abraham malpan and kaiythayil gheevargeese malpan was not given the full priesthood by the metropolitan. it is at this situation ABraham Malpan and maramon and other other parishes supporting reformation thought of sending the nephew of abraham malpan , Mathews shemmashan to SyRIAC ORTHODOX patriarch .

b) The points you raised against or about Abraham Malpan shows your interest in the subject as a critic and not as a historian. The ordinations or its validity is not in the scope of the wiki page Marthoma cHurch. The parting of CMS missionaries and malankara church under Cheppad Divaniyos was not only because on faith or belief lines but also in the administrative and accounting aspects too. see the difference in Mavelikara Padiyola 1836 ( they differed in constructing schools, making the church accounts accountable, streamlining theological education and ecclesiastical positions) . The word used by aBRAHAM mALPAN FOR the intiatives he was undertaking in malankara church was Shudheekaranam (Cleasing and actualising) ..and later when KN daniel wrote the history of Marthoma church , HE gave emphasis on poorveekaranam (restoration of original faith). It is in Missionary registers and other history narrated by anglican scholors the intiatives of abraham malpan became acts of Reformation and They started comparing him as WYCLIFF OF east or Martin Luther OF mALANKARA. t He hi Story book OF The former vicar general is only one among many history books written about marthoma church. and of course the history reflects the writers perspective.

c)Church websites are not the only sources of history, AGREED. But it is the official publishing or accepted history of marthoma church. when you quote any other history , it reflects the writers opinion. Inspired By Contacts with MISSIONARIES is a misguide. After 1836 Mavelikara Padiyola Mavelikara padiyola Malankara Church and cms missionaries parted their way.The LINGUA FRANCHAE BIBLE was published in association with them, And availability of Bible in malayalam initiated bible understanding and this lead to further reforms in malankara church. the leader of malankara church from 1841 to 1876 was Mathews Mar Athanasious.. It is well clear that even though there were good relation ship and interaction with Cms Missionaries none of their protestant doctrines or teachings of their leaders where accepted or introduced in malankara. However Jacobite and orthodox historians ignores this fact and propagtes the stories of marthoma church adopting anglican faith and practices to eye wash the general public.

d) The Ara Kurbana Story is also a similar thing which critics of marthoma church try to propagate as the Thaksa of Marthoma church is in complete.. It is primarly figured in Jacobite and orthodox History books. In marthoma History Books Its is clearly stated that this term was used to ridicule and demoralise the kashishas who where using the thaksa in malayalam ,

e)ridiculed : misconception /personal opininion,,,,, this accusation is totally wrong. pls read Marthoma Sabha Charithram by N M Varkey, Vilapangal BY Thazhathu Chandapilla kathanar...

f) antagonism aspect....already explaine and given citation for the above plse go through.."" can agree on a word more suitable than ""ANTAGONISM", bUt cannot agree on your 'ill health hypothesis'".

g) Any body who is minimally knowledgeble in the history of christianity can easily find out the fault in your argument.... there was no entity or a denomination called Malankara Jacobite syriac orthodox church in 18th or 19th century. It was known as Malankara Church Then.. Colloquially called as yakobaya sabha. but in all official correspondence it was mentioned as malankara .. royal proclamation was given as Malnkara Metropolitan and not as jacobite metrapolitha... the seminary suit was filed for the collateral and other properties of malankara church. pls re concile.

h)again wrong understanding....believers church has not publicized or published this fact that believers church evolved from marthoma church. St Thomas church is off course a churches evolved from marthoma roots. can agree on that.But Need not figure in intro para.

i)"ancient community" is used to in aspect of legacy . usage of denomination or ancient community do not change the meaning of the sentence , But usage of ancient community adds the meaning of the sentence by 1. following of Christianity from intial centuries 2. usage of syriac and 3. cohesiveness of the church. hope you will agree to this. swapping of denomination and community doesnot make differential changes.

j) it may kindly revealed who is the "we" .. if the "we " denotes a group working on behalf of marthoma church in maintain this wiki page ,i may agree to you .but still with strong objections

I hope you may stop misusing your account or engage in continuous disruptions through sock-puppetry or meat-puppetry. Hope your concerns are already clear. Suggestion: You may start a separate page on the recently deceased Bishop, since all the Newspaper articles are available. But follow wikipedia policies and draft it. You may use, http://imgur.com/a/0TMyD

Your recent edits

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Speedy deletion nomination of Palakkunnathu Thomas Mar Athanasious of Malankara

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A tag has been placed on Palakkunnathu Thomas Mar Athanasious of Malankara requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section G12 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the article or image appears to be a clear copyright infringement. This article or image appears to be a direct copy from http://www.geni.com/people/Thomas-Mar-Athanasius-Metropolitan-Mar-Thoma-XIV-Palakunnathu/6000000003494071288 ( Note this was updated in 2014). For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or printed material, and as a consequence, your addition will most likely be deleted. You may use external websites or other printed material as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences. This part is crucial: say it in your own words. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously and persistent violators will be blocked from editing.

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February 2016

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Edit warring

Roshyf2, so you know, Wikipedia has a policy against edit warring. You've been repeatedly reverting material across several pages. It will be more productive for you to discuss what you want to change on the talk page first, so that we can make sure the material is properly sourced and worded correctly. Thanks,--Cúchullain ^t/c 15:36, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

February 2016

Your addition to Mar Thoma Throne has been removed, as it appears to have added copyrighted material to Wikipedia without permission from the copyright holder. If you are the copyright holder, please read Wikipedia:Donating copyrighted materials for more information on uploading your material to Wikipedia. For legal reasons, Wikipedia cannot accept copyrighted material, including text or images from print publications or from other websites, without an appropriate and verifiable license. All such contributions will be deleted. You may use external websites or publications as a source of information, but not as a source of content, such as sentences or images—you must write using your own words. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. Elizium23 (talk) 20:12, 23 February 2016 (UTC)

Provide citations for Mar Thoma Syrian Church, Fasts, Lents and Festivals of Marthoma Church.

Your addition to Mar Thoma Syrian Church has been removed, as it appears to have added copyrighted material to Wikipedia without permission from the copyright holder. If you are the copyright holder, please read Wikipedia:Donating copyrighted materials for more information on uploading your material to Wikipedia. For legal reasons, Wikipedia cannot accept copyrighted material, including text or images from print publications or from other websites, without an appropriate and verifiable license. All such contributions will be deleted. You may use external websites or publications as a source of information, but not as a source of content, such as sentences or images—you must write using your own words. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. You copy-pasted directly from [1] Elizium23 (talk) 18:46, 26 February 2016 (UTC)

You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war. Users are expected to collaborate with others, to avoid editing disruptively, and to try to reach a consensus rather than repeatedly undoing other users' edits once it is known that there is a disagreement.

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Dear Elizium23

You deleted all most 17000 words on accusation of Copyrighted material. you have deleted many paragraphs which is not at all figuring in the document which you are accusing [2]. I already told you there is no copy paste editing. however the citation is added for better appreciation. Why did you delete

• 1. marthoma church during independence movement.
• 2. Abbeys and monastries and theological seminaries
• 3.bishop houses
• 4.Sacraments
• 5.Organisations etc which not at all figure in the document you accuse.

moreover what is the copy paste involved there. show me pls. I want the matter to be be reinstated as it gives completeness to the main article. if a sentence or word is problematic why do you need to delete the entire matter? as i already asked we can have a discussion on that. Who did the edit war . in spite of my request for discussion on the particular areas of dispute in your talk page ,you have deleted. Which is unjustifiable. this matter is created after spending many hours in front of the computer and it may be easy to delete it by a click. As i am new to editing ,you can take the matter for dispute resolution or WP:CCI ,let a third party decide.Roshyf2 (talk) 04:42, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

No, I deleted 17000 letters, not words. And the text you added exactly matches the link I gave you. Elizium23 (talk) 13:17, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

Dear Elizium23

So you need to delete those passage where you have seen exact matches. not the entire scope of writing Is it ?. The sentence "Mar Thoma constitution strictly admonishes that the festivals, feasts and Lents are not to be removed or altered" is a part of marthoma church constitution and not a part of the said document alone .that is why it is deliberately kept. All other event mentioned in that para is already well defined , the document writer or any other person can only use the same definitions. The text do not not exactly matches the link. you have been carried away by the first sentence and arrived at a conclusion. however the other topics you have deleted do not figure in the link at all .Can you explain why then you have deleted that? However you may introspect your act after going through the passage again.

Area or set of sentence is matching with the link ,because both are using a already known fact or a fact that is already documented. however i am only talking about the scope "fast ,feast and lents" If you can add you words to it it will be help full but do not delete the entire scope which is covering in two three heads. Hope we will enter into a consensus by tommorrow.roshyf2 04:28, 2 March 2016 (UTC)

Stop attempting to conduct conversations by copy-pasting your responses to 2-3 different talk pages. Centralize your discussion in one place. Elizium23 (talk) 04:03, 3 March 2016 (UTC)

Dear , where is the discussion, have you discussed on any thing i have pointed to you roshyf2 12:09, 3 March 2016 (UTC)

July 2016

There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. Drmies (talk) 03:56, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

There seems to be a number of concerns about these page moves. Would you care to explain to someone why they were done? -- Ricky81682 (talk) 06:40, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

Signature policy

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Move

Why did you move Malankara Jacobite Syrian Orthodox Church to Malankara Jacobite Syrian Orthodox church?--Zoupan 12:07, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

Nomination of Pay accounts office DSC for deletion

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Speedy deletion nomination of Sunil Kumar Kohli

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