User talk:Rob Roilen

Not respecting other editors

Hello, your page, currently with the description:

" Hello, I'm Rob. I'm here in an attempt to counter the unfortunately large community of Wikipedia editors who have absolutely zero intellectual integrity. Too bad there are enough of them with authority at this point that people like me get banned for arguing too much. See you out there!"

Directly goes against one of Wikipedia's fundamental principles. Please see WP:5P4. Trulyy (talk) 18:07, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Speedy deletion of an attack page

A page you created has been deleted as an attack page, according to section G10 of the criteria for speedy deletion.

Do not create pages that attack, threaten, or disparage their subject or any other entity. Attack pages and files are not tolerated by Wikipedia, and users who create or add such material may be blocked from editing. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 01:12, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Wow this is a pretty cavalier interpretation of the definition of an "attack page" and the guidelines laid out on Wikipedia:NOTFORUM since this is my own personal talk page. Thanks for making my point in record time. Rob Roilen (talk) 01:23, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Editors don't have their "own" pages. While there is an unwritten rule that editors shouldn't edit other editor's user pages except their talk page, User pages can be deleted at any time if their content violates Wikipedia policies and guidelines. There is even a speedy deletion criteria, U5, to tag user pages that are just being used to host content that has no relationship to the encyclopedia. User pages get deleted every day. If you want a place where you can post whatever opinions you want, I suggest getting yourself a blog or website. There are many free services available. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 05:34, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The content that was deleted was very obviously not "attacking" anyone and was not addressing any specific person. I have no leverage here; I'm at the mercy of anonymous editors who have more privilege than me and can terminate my ability to freely edit the encyclopedia if they personally don't like my tone on talk pages. Surely I'm not the only person who understands why this isn't exactly fair. Rob Roilen (talk) 13:50, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

By editing here you have to obey our policies and guidelines just like everyone editing here does. If you don't think it's fair, you're welcome to start your own website or find one which suits you. There's no free speech on Wikipedia as with most private websites. Nil Einne (talk) 21:41, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Please explain to me how openly expressing my desire to maintain the integrity of Wikipedia by actively working to counter intellectually dishonest editors is against some sort of guideline. I would have thought that this is something Wikipedia would welcome. I chose to place what I said on the page that other editors specifically choose to visit when they might want to know more about me. At what point do I get to say I'm being harassed by other editors who simply disagree with my tone? Rob Roilen (talk) 21:48, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The fact that you choose to describe your fellow editors here as "intellectually dishonest editors" is a very bad sign that you may not be able to work in a collaborative project like Wikipedia. We get along here with each other, even those we disagree with without making personal attacks and calling another editor intellectually dishonest is an attack and not civil. Your contributions are welcome here as long as you abide by Wikipedia policies and guidelines but one of the pillars of Wikipedia is civility and that means getting along with others without calling them names. There are editors here who've been active editors for decades who can't stand each other so it is possible to work with others you don't care for. You just have to remember if you lash out at others, it will hurt you more than it will hurt them. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 07:07, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Despite your subjective interpretation of my comments, the fact remains that there are indeed editors here who are intellectually dishonest and only trying to inject their personal opinions into what should remain a neutral encyclopedia. Some of these editors even have a deep enough grasp of Wikipedia policies that they take advantage of them in an effort to censor newer or less experienced editors they personally disagree with. Broadly stating this concept on my own user or talk page is by no means an "attack" on anyone. Rob Roilen (talk) 12:53, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

October 2024

Welcome to Wikipedia. Editors are expected to treat each other with respect and civility. On this encyclopedia project, editors assume good faith while interacting with other editors, which you did not appear to do at Talk:2024 Trump rally at Madison Square Garden. Here is Wikipedia's welcome page, and it is hoped that you will assume the good faith of other editors and continue to help us improve Wikipedia! Thank you very much! Folkezoft (talk) 10:41, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Kindly don't assume my assumptions. I do indeed start from a place of assuming that other editors are acting in what they feel to be good faith. However, there are points where it becomes obvious that other editors are not, in fact, interested in fact finding, educating themselves, publishing neutral points of view, or engaging in intellectual discussion regarding the topic at hand. Talk page discussions regularly become filibusters, and it may be impossible to reach a consensus because one or two editors refuse to actually engage.

Are you referencing my single post on Talk:2024 Trump rally at Madison Square Garden? Where I said "This page should not exist. Trying to spin another bombastic campaign rally into a literal Nazi event is beyond sensational and certainly against Wikipedia:NPOV."? If you personally disagree with this statement that is your right, but I think it would require a fairly loose interpretation of Wikipedia policies to characterize it as some sort of general assumption of bad faith. Rob Roilen (talk) 14:06, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

👏👏👏 132.147.140.229 (talk) 14:44, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This neutral point of view you want is simply not compatible with what is being discussed. By this logic, a film or book's critical response can not be referred to as "widely acclaimed" or "panned by critics", because this is not a neutral perspective. A completely neutral point of view is not possible when the discourse surrounding it is not neutral. If the vast majority of information being presented shows bias against or towards a particular response, it's dishonest to present the opposite response as equally reliable. For example, in an article covering slavery, it would not be acceptable to give the anti-abolitionist perspective the same level of credit as the abolitionist perspective for the sake of neutrality. 64.228.236.176 (talk) 17:36, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's a good observation. The relevant section of the policy is Wikipedia:Neutral point of view § Giving "equal validity" can create a false balance. jlwoodwa (talk) 17:40, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I very much understand that you and several of the other editors I've been talking to are not fans of Donald Trump or Republicans. Not that it should matter or that I even expect anyone to believe me, but I'm not a Trump or Republican supporter myself and have literally never voted for a Republican, and have no future plans to do so.

But when I come across what is supposed to be a neutral encyclopedia article about a campaign rally, and literally every source cited is a newspaper that has only ever published negative things about Trump and Republicans - sometimes outright falsehoods - while openly endorsing Democratic politicians and their associates, the only right thing to do as an editor is try to restore the neutrality of the article.

That is why I have removed some of the most sensational language where the sources cited either mischaracterized the context of certain remarks or provided no context at all. Like I said in the talk page, if editors can provide factually accurate sources that are also tonally neutral, I fully support using them. Rob Roilen (talk) 22:07, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

First of all, you are delibretely ignoring my point on why your standards for neutrality are unrealistic. Likewise, your standards for what is and isn't factually accurate is not the final say here, your agreement is not necessary to establish a concensus. Wikipedia's rules ultimately decide this, you cannot make these judgements based on what you believe belongs "in an encyclopedia". Wikipedia is not Encyclopedia Brittanica or a dictionary, it is it's own entity with its own rules, rules you need to follow.

Second, my (or anyone else's) dislike for Trump does not disqualify anyone from editing articles on Trump if they are following the site's rules of conduct. Likewise, a supporter of Trump is not automatically disqualified either. If the information is verifiable by consensus, it is valid. Your own personal standards for what you think makes a source too biased to include is not Wikipedia's standards for what sources can be included. There is a long list of people and organizations labelled as unreliable to use as a source depending on the topic, do you have any proof that the sources included in the article in question are one of these? Once again, you cannot set your own standard for this.

Lastly, very few people have a neutral view of Donald Trump, so this expectation for a neutral tone is not possible. Donald Trump is not a neutral figure, so how can the tone of an article covering Trump remain "tonally neutral"? I understand you feel strongly about thw Nazi comparisons, but how would an article on Adolf Hitler or Mengele remain tonally neutral? You simply cannot do it, the subject matter cannot be presented neutrually. 64.228.236.176 (talk) 23:13, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I am not ignoring anything; my standards for neutrality are Wikipedia's standards for neutrality. From Wikipedia:Neutral point of view:

"NPOV...means representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without editorial bias, all the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic." (emphasis added)

It also says:

"This policy is non-negotiable, and the principles upon which it is based cannot be superseded by other policies or guidelines, nor by editor consensus." (emphasis added)

As an example, here are two mainstream sources that describe the Madison Square Garden rally in positive terms:

[1]https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trump-supporters-outside-madison-square-garden-say-exhilarating-rally-shows-ny-play

[2]https://www.telegraph.co.uk/us/politics/2024/10/27/donald-trump-holds-rally-at-madison-square-garden-new-york/

Why are these articles, or articles similar to these, not cited at all in the article about the rally? Rob Roilen (talk) 23:39, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

WP:FOXNEWSPOLITICS

what does the Telegraph say behind its paywall? headlines are not considered reliable sources. soibangla (talk) 23:54, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This is manipulative, especially the parts emphasized.

On the parts you emphasized: Editorial Bias refers to summarizing a source in a way that is biased. Editorial Bias is not adding sources that are biased.

You missed this part:

"It is a frequent misunderstanding of the NPOV policy, often expressed by newbies, visitors, and outside critics, that articles must not contain any form of bias, hence their efforts to remove statements they perceive as biased. The NPOV policy does forbid the inclusion of editorial bias, but does not forbid properly sourced bias." (Emphasis not added)

On your Fox News source, aside from the fact that Fox is listed as an unreliable source, are you aware that Fox News is consistently supportive of Donald Trump? If you are against adding sources from outlets consistently biased against Trump, why would you want a source from an outlet consistently biased towards Trump? Wouldn't this also be adding to the bias you are trying to avoid? 64.228.236.176 (talk) 03:15, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"If you are against adding sources from outlets consistently biased against Trump, why would you want a source from an outlet consistently biased towards Trump?"

Ah yes you are figuring it out in real time Rob Roilen (talk) 04:08, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Teahouse

Hello! Rob Roilen, you are invited to join other new editors and friendly hosts in the Teahouse. The Teahouse is an awesome place to meet people, ask questions and learn more about Wikipedia. Please join us!

You seem to have some questions on how Wikipedia works and its standards for inclusion of material. The Teahouse is a great place for new users to ask questions.

Briefly, Argument from Authority and other logical fallacies don't apply well here at Wikipedia because we do not engage in the creation of information or proof of trueness. We are a tertiary source that summarizes reliable sources to present verifiable information with due weight given to a topic's various facets. EvergreenFir (talk) 04:24, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

While there are many sources that Wikipedia may generally consider reliable, "reliable" should not mean "beyond scrutiny." "Reliability" should still be determined with care. Relying on a source just because it’s generally considered reputable can unintentionally skew neutrality, especially when sources on contentious topics may display implicit biases. Encouraging balanced assessments of sources is consistent with Wikipedia’s standards of neutrality and due weight. Rob Roilen (talk) 04:43, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

To discuss and debate a source's reliability, please visit WP:RSN. You may also be interested in reviewing WP:RSP. As for bias in reliable sources, WP:YESPOV provides a good explanation of why Wikipedia doesn't try to assert a neutral stance when reliable sources do not. We try to reflect the sources, including their points-of-view. That's why we call ourselves "editor" and not "authors". The hard part is coming to a consensus on how best to do that when considering multiple sources of varying quality (eg, HuffPo and BBC). EvergreenFir (talk) 04:51, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the references. I believe very strongly that Wikipedia's foundational principle of neutrality should take precedence over merely reflecting sources' biases. This principle isn’t about echoing a source’s viewpoint but rather about integrating diverse perspectives in a way that represents the topic fairly, accurately, and without leaning towards a single viewpoint.

By reflecting all sources—both their strengths and inherent biases—with balanced skepticism, Wikipedia avoids taking implicit stances and maintains a neutral, trustworthy stance across contentious subjects. Rob Roilen (talk) 04:57, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Invitation

I am inviting you to state your case here. I have issued a report on this issue and am now informing you.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents 64.228.236.176 (talk) 03:22, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]