User talk:Rhododendrites/2015d

This is an archive of past discussions with User:Rhododendrites, for the period July 2015 - August 2015.
Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Your views were ignored in discussing concensus

Your views are being disregarded, even though you were in the majority. I quoted you right here. In short, Flytr35 deleted a who bunch of stuff in this major vandalism. It wasn't just 1 or 2 things (content dispute), but a lot (vandalism). First off, while I agree that none for the sources are ok for, say, a legal analysis (since apparently none of them are lawyers, not even Watts, who did very well in one big case, pro se), they all still qualify as advocates, as you and I agreed when discussing this. Moreover, the fact Flyte35 deletes a bunch of stuff and pretends he's deleting only the Watts source is disturbing. Your presence is requested right here.96.59.135.156 (talk) 14:18, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

@96.59.135.156: It looks like you may have misread my comments. I didn't endorse adding the source. I endorsed the use of an amicus brief for a recommendations-style section (as opposed to using it for neutral purposes), but qualified that by saying it should come from a reliable source. At the end of my comment I even said "I frankly don't know about Watts". That's why I thought you should take it to WP:RSN. My perspective on the matter hasn't changed, so I'm sorry I can't help you. As an aside, it may have been a coincidence but two people from the same geographic area making the same points and presenting themselves as separate people always looks fishy. It may be coincidence, but there's no faster way to kill one side of an argument than to discover its proponents were "socking". One way to avoid this kind of suspicion is to register a username. Just a heads up. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 03:03, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

I see. Thank you for the heads up, however, I do not approve of a lot that Wikipedia stands for and has done, and I refuse to sign up for an account. I am not endorsing any one of the sources above the other (Watts, Collinge, Investopedia, Mocker, or the many others which I have edited), and so, I don't see any conflict of interest. (But, even were one to exist, it would be moot, as I attempt to cite multiple sources, which are valid, reliable, and not misquoted, and properly attributed). I would like to point out one disturbing thing: In this reply here, I replied to Flyte35, on the talk page, but, in order to keep other editors in the loop, I went to the Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Clarifying section to reply, but someone made that section inaccessible to unregistered editors. If I were "bad" (as some of the comments in that section seem to imply), I would register an account under a 'fake' name --in order to edit on this "Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard") --a 'sock puppet,' as your community calls it. But I chose not to do that. Not only is it wrong to prohibit me from editing and replying to the the discussion on the Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Clarifying, but also, the deletion of a HUGE section of stuff, and not just the Watts citation (although, I agree, that is the main source in question) is a chief reason why myself and numerous others refuse to register an account! In fact one registered editor, who was previously involved in the College Education edits, said in this edit here that he is disgusted with Wikipedia (and, by the way, I am NOT ElKevbo, and I won't even address whether I am Watts, Collinge, Mockler, or an Investopedia editor). If we have all these complaints (myself, the 71... anonymous editor, ElKevbo, and many others, - just look around), then guess what? Maybe the problem is not with us, but rather with Wikipedia! That being said, my edits (whether or not I am biased, lack a neutral point of view, have a conflict of interest, etc.) stand on their own merit, as they should. I think that ALL of Flyte35's edits should be reversed, and not just the Watts deletion, but ALL of them. But, as I've been stopped from discussing this on the Reliable_sources/Noticeboard, I have done all I can do.96.59.146.211 (talk) 23:27, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

I think that abstaining from registering a username on principle, while understandable, does you a disservice. Some of the sorts of things you're having trouble with are things that are largely only problems for anonymous users. As far as editing the reliable sources noticeboard, only pages (rather than individual sections) can be protected, and it looks like this one didn't have anything to do with you. Specifically, there was an anonymous user edit warring to remove someone else's comments. When an anonymous user edits disruptively, the IP can be blocked (just like a username), but when that user hops to different IPs, the only real fix is to "semi-protect" the page for a shortish period of time (in this case it looks like it will be unprotected tomorrow, at which point you should be able to edit it again). The quasi-open editing model of Wikipedia invites rampant abuse of the system. In order for it to work at all, restrictions on that openness have to be put in place from time to time -- but conscious of the fact that any such impediments should only be as needed and should be removed as soon as not needed.

Other than not registering an account, if I may offer some unsolicited advice, I think what's doing you the most disservice is your rhetorical approach. You'll find that many people are very sensitive to perceived misrepresentations (of anything -- sources, editors, edits...) and of making disputes about other editors rather than about content (except in those rare cases where it really is about the editor). I'm thinking in particular of calling the removal of content "vandalism" and misrepresenting (in good faith / accidentally, I'm sure) what I had said. It makes it hard for some people to take the substance of your complaint seriously.

I stand by my original evaluation of Flyte35's removals. I think your best course of action would be to "drop the stick" concerning the personal disagreement with Flyte35 and to make a clear case for why Watts is a reliable source and his recommendation significant enough to include. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 01:06, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

My apologies for making such a harsh statements, such as above, where I said: section to reply, but someone made that section inaccessible to unregistered editors. -- Or even harsher, where I told this to Flyte35: ["...since the main page blocked me from editing. So much for "honest discussion!"" I did not know that the "semi-protection status" was related to someone else. (That was very short-sighted and illogical of me to assume it was because of me, seeing as there are numerous other edit wars going on, besides my own!) As I've said before, Watts, Collinge, Investopedia, and even Mockler (who was only mentioned once in an independent source, but a big source, the NY Times) are all valid and legitimate advocates. If you go back to the talk page, you'll see that I show ALL of them were cited numerous times in other publications not their own, and furthermore that I quoted them and cited the source correctly. While Watts' statement was a little different than Collinge's and Mockler's, it matters not: all 3 of them were valid statements, and they also supported their contention that loan forgiveness was good. I will apologize to Flyte35 for my brash complaint regarding the semi-protection, but, as I've said before, if you read the talk page, you'll see ALL the sources are reliable sources, and not merely "some yahoo mentioned only on his/her own blog." If these three sources (Watts, Collinge, Mockler) had not been cited anywhere but their own blogs, you'd have a case, but they were cited multiple times, and thus very valid. I'd like to know why you would hold them to any higher standard. Lastly, however, I see registered editors being treated with less respect than I am experiencing, so I respectfully dissent from your assessment. But thank you for your good faith suggestion.96.59.146.211 (talk) 03:01, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

Flyte35 brought up a nuance that i'd missed earlier, the difference between Bankruptcy and loan forgiveness on his talk page, and further discussed in talk on the article. Other nuances were discussed, and as you're familiar with the subject, but biased towards neither one of us, I invite you to help us resolve our dispute.96.59.146.211 (talk) 05:15, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

Impasse

I know you may have thought this was a dead issue, but we've reached an impasse on 3 issues, and I (myself, at least) seek your participation in the talk page of this article:

1. Bankruptcy is loan forgiveness, partial or total - like it or not - and thus Flyte35's suggestion that the section in question "is about loan forgiveness," not bankruptcy, is moot. 2. He still claims that the Watts source is not reliable, in spite of the fact that I found a citation to his official blog (and not some "http://thirstforjustice.net yahoo's" blog. Moreover, I don't see why Watts is any less reliable? His blog seems to have just as accurate facts and well-sourced, as most other advocates' blogs I've seen: Robert Applebaum or Alan Collinge, for example. Please clarify or distinguish here? 3. Even in the much less controversial issue (not involving Watts, Mocker, Applebaum, Collinge, Investopedia, etc.), he made this deletion. He said "As I've already explained, the other recommendations are policy recommendations. Those are personal finance recommendations, and inappropriate here.)" in edit comments, but I think these are indeed are good recommendations on how to "address" rising tuition, even if it is, in these cases, by increasing income versus decreasing tuition.

I conceded one point about the "thirstforjustice" blog, and made corrections and also made language corrections (see recent edits, such as: "(which is a type of partial or total loan forgiveness)," in this edit, here to address his "bankruptcy vs forgiveness" concerns, but we're still at an impasse. Please weigh in, and/or get others to weigh in on these 3 points.96.59.148.12 (talk) 23:38, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

I'll plan to take a look at this, but might not have time until tomorrow FYI. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 13:44, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

Sorry to take a few extra days, but I've added a section to the article talk page here: Talk:College tuition in the United States/Archive 2#breaking things down. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 01:37, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

My Apologies, myself, for taking slightly more than a day to see your response and then reply, myself. I replied right here. I validate your 3 points, and can't think of additional ones. Good job.96.59.148.191 (talk) 06:28, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

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You're still nice!

I'll say it again: your patience and kindness (this time I'm talking about Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Carnism (3rd nomination)) is an inspiration. You defuse unpleasantness and make a great first impression for WP. Thanks! FourViolas (talk) 01:53, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

I fully agree with FourViolas! Your tone is consistently welcoming, helpful and convivial, and you always take the time to assist patiently and generously. You have an admirable skill for pointing out areas of improvements in an even-tempered manner and for encouraging others to take responsibility and resolve to do better. On the few occasions I turned to you for advice, your guidance enabled me to do the right thing with renewed confidence.
For that, and everything else you do in support of our encyclopaedia, thank you!

With kind regards;

Patrick ツ Pdebee.^(talk)^(guestbook) 09:19, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

@FourViolas and Pdebee: Sincere thanks for these kind words. I tend to think dogged civility is a pretty effective approach to Wikipedia discourse -- effective on the level of the individual discussion but also on the macro level in terms of impact on the community, countervailing some of the unfortunate trends facing the site. Thanks again. :) — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 00:59, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

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This Month in GLAM: June 2015

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Link remove

Dear,

I want to add my page like this link http://www.mymacaronrecipe.com/macaron-day-2013/ in to reference. But i couldnt put 37. article on References. How can i done this ? please dont remove and help me about put my webpage link too. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mdoganci (talk • contribs) 15:29, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

@Mdoganci: Wikipedia has relatively strict guidelines for what kinds of sources can be used and what kinds of links can be included. Typically, the source should be a publication with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy, not a blog or commercial site. References are also only for supporting content in the article, not to serve as a directory of relevant sites. Perhaps I don't understand what you're asking, but Wikipedia is not a good place to promote a blog, no matter how good it is. It may be ok to include a link to the official Macaron Day website, but even then probably not because it doesn't provide an encyclopedic resource to readers. Sorry I can't be of more help. If you have other questions, feel free to ask here. There is also a place called WP:TEAHOUSE which exists specifically for new Wikipedia users to ask questions like this. They may be able to help more than I. Thanks. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 15:38, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

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Speedy deletion declined: Sheldon Hall (film historian)

Hello Rhododendrites. I am just letting you know that I declined the speedy deletion of Sheldon Hall (film historian), a page you tagged for speedy deletion, because of the following concern: Not overly promotional, and the list of publications might constitute a claim of basic importance. PROD already in place, if not AFD might be indicated instead. Thank you. §FreeRangeFrog^croak 21:48, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

@FreeRangeFrog: Thanks for the heads up. The reason I [still] see it as appropriate for CSD is because the entire article is effectively a copy/pasted CV with a single line of [unsourced] prose ("Sheldon Hall is a film historian based in the Humanities department of Sheffield Hallam University.") By the same logic, every academic could paste their CV and have an article for seven days while AfD runs its course. One of those things that, to me, makes sense for CSD or PROD, but is harder to tackle at AfD. ...For what it's worth :) — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 21:54, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

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Wikipedia email re Newspapers.com signup

Hello, Rhododendrites. Please check your email; you've got mail!
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HazelAB (talk) 23:31, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

IM Clients

hello

i have seen you deleted some IM clients from the page : https://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=Comparison_of_instant_messaging_clients&action=history

would you mind if i reorganise the page so that they are still present ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.6.243.149 (talk) 00:35, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

@2.6.243.149: Hi there. Thanks for the message. The reason I removed InTouch Messenger and Freelab Messenger from Comparison of instant messaging clients wasn't about organization, I'm afraid. Wikipedia, as an encyclopedia, distinguishes itself from other kinds of reference works and web content. Its lists are therefore "encyclopedic lists" and, while the standards vary somewhat, the typical inclusion criteria is that the addition has its own Wikipedia article and that there are reliable sources which establish its belonging on the list. In this case, the latter is easy, but both of the articles were previously deleted. In other words, lists on Wikipedia are very rarely e.g. a comparison of all instant messaging clients but rather a comparison of those which are notable enough to have a Wikipedia article. So the first thing to do would be to create the articles. I've left a message on your user talk page which contains some links that will help you to get started if that's something you'd like to do. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 01:08, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

to what i have seen when that listings were added the article the listing was referring to was also present — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.60.126.129 (talk) 07:50, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

@90.60.126.129: It does look like they did at one point exist but have since been deleted. Freelab went through a process called WP:PROD in which someone suggests that a subject doesn't meet Wikipedia standards for "notability" and if nobody contests it, it's deleted after a week. InTouch went through the WP:AFD process through which people discuss whether an article should be kept or deleted over the course of a week or until consensus emerges. A record of that discussion is here: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/InTouch Messenger. I wasn't involved in either one, though. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 13:30, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

Puff Puff

Hi there, it seems I puffed on the John Cyril Porte page, what did I not do?80.229.34.113 (talk) 11:53, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

@80.229.34.113: Hmm. Upon taking a second look it wasn't as clearly "puffery" (I like the verb form, by the way :) ) as I originally thought. Puffery includes inserting "peacock terms" that don't add anything encyclopedic but just serve to praise/promote. For example, "highly influential," "famous", "world renowned", "a defining figure", and so on. In this case, it's clear I was too quick to act as I'm now not entirely sure "widely publicized" in this context isn't appropriate. Sorry about that and thanks for leaving a message. I've restored your edit and will leave it to those who edit the article more actively than I do (they may still remove it). — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 13:28, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

Your Newspapers.com account

Thanks for filling out the form and registering at Newspapers.com. Because of vacation timing at Newspapers.com, it will be a couple of weeks before your account is activated. Sorry for the delay. And thanks for letting me know about the typo in the Wikipedia email message. All the best, HazelAB (talk) 13:03, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

@HazelAB: Thanks for the update. No worries re: delay. There's nothing pressing I'm looking to use it for -- just a good resource to have access to in general. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 13:28, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

You should have full access now. HazelAB (talk) 22:10, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

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RFC notification 1 August 2015

Hi. Since you participated in an earlier discussion on the same issue on the same page, please take a look at Wikipedia talk:Stand-alone lists#RFC: “Common selection criteria” ambiguity. If you choose to reply to this notice, please do so on my Talk page. (Don’t worry, my IP address is static.) Thanks! —67.14.236.50 (talk) 16:20, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Done thanks for the heads up — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 16:45, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Peer review and document improvement request

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Short and Sweet

Hello R. Thanks for this this. It gave me a nice chuckle. Enjoy the rest of your week. MarnetteD|Talk 21:56, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

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External links deleted

Hi, you deleted some of information at Wikipedia from me and several links. It wasn't spam as you send in a message, for example here: https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Shopping_mall this fact: The Australian mall company Westfield launched an online mall (and later a mobile app) with 150 stores, 3,000 brands and over 1 million products.[citation needed]

- from the article http://www.malls.com/news/analytics/the-future-of-the-shopping-mall.shtml

Please, restore it and be careful with edits, it's result of others people work. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Balakirev (talk • contribs) 11:48, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

@Balakirev: Hi there and thanks for the message. Malls.com is a b2b/commercial project that is not clear about where it gets its information. It looks to either aggregate data from around the web, collect user-generated content, and/or sells profiles to mall managers/owners. In any case, it's neither a secondary source with a reputation for fact-checking/accuracy nor an official primary site. Add to that that it's primary commercial aim, selling the ability to add information without editorial oversight, and it doesn't meet standards for reliable sources on Wikipedia.

It looks like the only edits you've made at all have been to insert links to malls.com. New accounts replacing deadlinks with lower quality references and adding external links to lower quality sites raises red flags -- when that appears to be the only purpose of the account, it's almost always going to be a spammer. If that's not the case, I apologize, and would be happy to talk more. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 13:11, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Thank you :^) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.9.173.59 (talk) 21:26, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

This Month in GLAM: July 2015

This Month in GLAM – Volume V, Issue VII, July 2015
Headlines
Argentina report: Wikimedia Argentina France report: A GLAMourous summer Germany report: Fancy new apps based on GLAMorous data Italy report: Wiki Loves Monuments at Toscana Foto Festival and two new GLAM projects Netherlands report: Radio broadcasts; historic atlases; GLAMetrics Spain report: Wiki Loves Earth, municipalities and concerts Sweden report: Hedemora; Mapillary UK report: Royal Society of Chemistry; Thinktank; Oxford USA report: GLAM in Philadelphia Special story: Share what you know about Photo Events Open Access report: Wikimania: Citations and video Wikipedia Library report: Books & Bytes Wikidata report: Wikidata this month Wiki Loves Monuments report: Wiki Loves Monuments Calendar: August's GLAM events
Read this edition in full • Single-page
To assist with preparing the newsletter, please visit the newsroom. Past editions may be viewed here.

Subscribe/Unsubscribe · Global message delivery · Romaine 00:22, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

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August 19: WikiWednesday Salon and Skill-Share NYC

Wednesday August 19, 7pm: WikiWednesday Salon and Skill-Share NYC

You are invited to join the Wikimedia NYC community for our evening "WikiWednesday" salon and knowledge-sharing workshop by 14th Street / Union Square in Manhattan.

We also hope for the participation of our friends from the Free Culture movement and from educational and cultural institutions interested in developing free knowledge projects. We will also follow up on plans for recent and upcoming editathons, and other outreach activities.

After the main meeting, pizza and refreshments and video games in the gallery!

Wednesday August 19 WikiWednesday Salon and Skill-Share NYC (RSVP on-wiki or at meetup.com).

7:00pm - 9:00 pm at Babycastles, 137 West 14th Street

Featuring a keynote talk this month to be determined! We especially encourage folks to add your 5-minute lightning talks to our roster, and otherwise join in the "open space" experience! Newcomers are very welcome! Bring your friends and colleagues! --Pharos (talk) 15:59, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

(You can subscribe/unsubscribe from future notifications for NYC-area events by adding or removing your name from this list.)

The Signpost: 12 August 2015

News and notes: Superprotect, one year later; a contentious RfA

In the media: Paid editing; traffic drop; Nicki Minaj

Forum: Community voices on paid editing

Wikimanía report: Wikimanía 2015, part 2, a community event

Traffic report: Fighting from top to bottom

Featured content: Fused lizards, giant mice, and Scottish demons

Technology report: Tech news in brief

Blog: The Hunt for Tirpitz

Moral panic

A discussion that might interest you has been started at talk:moral panic. Etamni | ✉ | ✓ 20:13, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

The Signpost: 19 August 2015

Op-ed: WP:THREATENING2MEN: The English Wikipedia's misogynist infopolitics and the hegemony of the asshole consensus

In the media: Politically controversial science; "Wikipedia hates women"

Featured content: Dead parrots, live frogs, a symbolic kiss and what do we get? Enrique Iglesias!

Travelogue: Seeing is believing

Traffic report: Straight Outta Connecticut

Technology report: Tech news in brief

Blog: How Wikipedia responds to breaking news

You sent me it

Is this the hint — Preceding unsigned comment added by 37.216.27.206 (talk) 23:10, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

Hint? Sent what? Since I can only see edits you've made with this IP address, I'm afraid I don't know what you're talking about. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 23:26, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

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Admin?

Hey, NRP and I were talking and we both think that you'd make an awesome admin. (It was NRP's idea since he first suggested it.) To be honest, I keep thinking that you already are one. So what do you say - interested in a WP:RfA? Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 06:07, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

@Tokyogirl79 and NinjaRobotPirate: Thanks very much for this. I've replied by email. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 15:58, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

List of Internet forums

I’m contacting active participants on this article to vote “yes” or “no” on this suggested format. [Talk: List of Internet Forums]
72.181.218.181 (talk) 00:38, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

DYK for Operation Shrouded Horizon

On 27 August 2015, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Operation Shrouded Horizon, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that Operation Shrouded Horizon was an 18-month international law enforcement investigation into an online forum described as "a cyber hornet's nest of criminal hackers"? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Operation Shrouded Horizon. You are welcome to check how many page hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, live views, daily totals), and it may be added to the statistics page if the total is over 5,000. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 21:28, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

The Signpost: 26 August 2015

In focus: An increase in active Wikipedia editors

In the media: Russia temporarily blocks Wikipedia

Op-ed: Wikimania—can volunteers organize conferences?

News and notes: Re-imagining grants

Featured content: Out to stud, please call later

Arbitration report: Reinforcing Arbitration

Recent research: OpenSym 2015 report

Julius Evola

As there are already discussions concerning the matter, I do not feel the need to voice my concerns. If you can explain to me how Julius Evola can somehow both be an anti-fascist that died in 1974 and someone with "beliefs inspired by or reminiscent of fascism or Nazism" and that this is relevant enough to be in the introduction I will se where you are coming from. Bandaideditor (talk) 13:32, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

I see that you changed it now and think your edit is fair. Thank you for hearing me out. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bandaideditor (talk • contribs) 13:35, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

@Bandaieditor: Thanks for the message. It seems while you were typing this I was typing this at Talk:Julius Evola. To be clear, I don't disagree with you (and in hindsight I probably didn't need to leave that message on your talk page). — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 13:46, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

TTP leaked text

Read in sourced article title "according to Wikileaks documents" There is no verification of fact that leaked text is authentic.

P.S. Btw, I do not care about marginalization. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.93.105.1 (talk) 18:19, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

I've replied at Talk:WikiLeaks. I hope you'll take my second post there as constructive criticism even if it is kind of negating. Not trying to give you a hard time or push some agenda here -- it's just how Wikipedia works (i.e. not edit warring, discussing first, going by what reliable sources say, arguing against reliable sources through other reliable sources rather than editor opinion, etc.). — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 18:38, 29 August 2015 (UTC)