User talk:Mtiges

Footy jumper files

Hi mtiges - good work on uploading the additional Sydney AFL club jumpers, I've used them to fill in the gallery on the Sydney AFL page. Just one note though, you might want to change the boilerplate on the page for each image so that there's a fair use rational filled-in. Otherwise, they get deleted (as do all copyrighted images without a fair-use rationale).

AaronRichard (talk) 04:34, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

Cheers Aaron. I've added a "fur" to each jumper that has a copyrighted logo. Those without don't need one. The jumpers themselves were my own creations. Also UNSW-ES and Balmain have new designed jumpers (see their respective wiki page). Mtiges (talk) 07:17, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

Welcome

Hello Mtiges, and Welcome to Wikipedia!

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Nomination for deletion of Template:AustralianFootballbox collapsible

Template:AustralianFootballbox collapsible has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for discussion page. Thank you. Mhiji (talk) 20:58, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free image File:NightcliffTigerslogo.jpg

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Thanks for uploading File:NightcliffTigerslogo.jpg. The image description page currently specifies that the image is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, the image is currently orphaned, meaning that it is not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the image was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that images for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

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Orphaned non-free image File:PalmerstonMagpieslogo.jpg

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Thanks for uploading File:PalmerstonMagpieslogo.jpg. The image description page currently specifies that the image is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, the image is currently orphaned, meaning that it is not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the image was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that images for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

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Orphaned non-free image File:SouthernDistrictsCrocslogo.jpg

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Thanks for uploading File:SouthernDistrictsCrocslogo.jpg. The image description page currently specifies that the image is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, the image is currently orphaned, meaning that it is not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the image was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that images for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

If you have uploaded other unlicensed media, please check whether they're used in any articles or not. You can find a list of "file" pages you have edited by clicking on the "my contributions" link (it is located at the very top of any Wikipedia page when you are logged in), and then selecting "File" from the dropdown box. Note that any non-free images not used in any articles will be deleted after seven days, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. Courcelles 03:36, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free image File:StMaryslogo.jpg

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Thanks for uploading File:StMaryslogo.jpg. The image description page currently specifies that the image is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, the image is currently orphaned, meaning that it is not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the image was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that images for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

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Orphaned non-free image File:TiwiBomberslogo.jpg

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Thanks for uploading File:TiwiBomberslogo.jpg. The image description page currently specifies that the image is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, the image is currently orphaned, meaning that it is not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the image was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that images for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

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Orphaned non-free image File:Wandererslogo.jpg

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Thanks for uploading File:Wandererslogo.jpg. The image description page currently specifies that the image is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, the image is currently orphaned, meaning that it is not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the image was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that images for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

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Orphaned non-free image File:Waratahlogo.jpg

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Thanks for uploading File:Waratahlogo.jpg. The image description page currently specifies that the image is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, the image is currently orphaned, meaning that it is not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the image was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that images for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

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Orphaned non-free image File:WesternMagpieslogo.jpg

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Thanks for uploading File:WesternMagpieslogo.jpg. The image description page currently specifies that the image is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, the image is currently orphaned, meaning that it is not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the image was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that images for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

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Orphaned non-free image File:StMaryslogo.jpg

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Thanks for uploading File:StMaryslogo.jpg. The image description page currently specifies that the image is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, the image is currently orphaned, meaning that it is not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the image was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that images for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

If you have uploaded other unlicensed media, please check whether they're used in any articles or not. You can find a list of "file" pages you have edited by clicking on the "my contributions" link (it is located at the very top of any Wikipedia page when you are logged in), and then selecting "File" from the dropdown box. Note that any non-free images not used in any articles will be deleted after seven days, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. Courcelles 15:24, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

File copyright problem with File:Newcarrara.jpg

Thank you for uploading File:Newcarrara.jpg. However, it currently is missing information on its copyright status. Wikipedia takes copyright very seriously. It may be deleted soon, unless we can determine the license and the source of the file. If you know this information, then you can add a copyright tag to the image description page.

If you have uploaded other files, consider checking that you have specified their license and tagged them, too. You can find a list of files you have created in your upload log.

If you have any questions, please feel free to ask them at the media copyright questions page. Thanks again for your cooperation. SchuminWeb (Talk) 05:50, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for File:Newcarrara.jpg

Thanks for uploading or contributing to File:Newcarrara.jpg. I notice the file page specifies that the file is being used under fair use but there is not a suitable explanation or rationale as to why each specific use in Wikipedia constitutes fair use. Please go to the file description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale.

If you have uploaded other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on those pages too. You can find a list of 'file' pages you have edited by clicking on the "my contributions" link (it is located at the very top of any Wikipedia page when you are logged in), and then selecting "File" from the dropdown box. Note that any non-free media lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. SchuminWeb (Talk) 05:50, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

February 2011

Hi, and thank you for your contributions to Wikipedia. It appears that you recently tried to give Foxtel Cup a different title by copying its content and pasting either the same content, or an edited version of it, into another page with a different name. This is known as a "cut and paste move", and it is undesirable because it splits the page history, which is needed for attribution and various other purposes. Instead, the software used by Wikipedia has a feature that allows pages to be moved to a new title together with their edit history.

In most cases, once your account is four days old and has ten edits, you should be able to move an article yourself using the "Move" tab at the top of the page. This both preserves the page history intact and automatically creates a redirect from the old title to the new. If you cannot perform a particular page move yourself this way (e.g. because a page already exists at the target title), please follow the instructions at requested moves to have it moved by someone else. Also, if there are any other pages that you moved by copying and pasting, even if it was a long time ago, please list them at Wikipedia:Cut and paste move repair holding pen. Thank you. Mattinbgn (talk) 07:51, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free image File:PerthDemonslogo.gif

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Thanks for uploading File:PerthDemonslogo.gif. The image description page currently specifies that the image is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, the image is currently orphaned, meaning that it is not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the image was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that images for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

If you have uploaded other unlicensed media, please check whether they're used in any articles or not. You can find a list of "file" pages you have edited by clicking on the "my contributions" link (it is located at the very top of any Wikipedia page when you are logged in), and then selecting "File" from the dropdown box. Note that any non-free images not used in any articles will be deleted after seven days, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. Skier Dude2 (talk) 06:29, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Nomination for deletion of Template:ACTAFLclubs

Template:ACTAFLclubs has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for discussion page. Sfan00 IMG (talk) 05:58, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

Wasn't vandalism

http://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=Template%3ARound16-AFLformat&action=historysubmit&diff=434899878&oldid=434562827 Please revert this change. Look at what you did with your reversion on the Foxtel Cup page. 124.181.73.144 (talk) 03:05, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

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The code was changed to muck up the template. I will again undo the change to correct the code and template. Mtiges (talk) 09:06, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

The template was wrong to begin with. Leave it as it is now instead of maintaining YOUR error. 101.169.134.140 (talk) 05:40, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

Your "edit" stuffs up the arrangement of the boxes for the Semi-Final and Grand Final parts of the code. Mtiges (talk) 16:12, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

Will you look at what you're doing? Look at the Foxtel Cup as it looks now. Look where the teams are! It's stuffed! That's YOUR edit causing that! Mine fixed it up and you're calling that "vandalism"?? I strongly suggest that you look at the result of what you're doing, bud! 124.181.73.144 (talk) 12:27, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

Not everyone uses Internet Explorer and even so if you click on the 'compatibility view' it'll "fix" what you are claiming as an error. Your editing of the code stuffs up the template for those who use other more reliable browsers such as Firefox. Mtiges (talk) 08:13, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

Compatibility view shows the same error that YOU are making. Firefox is rubbish. Get rid of it, because it refuses to recognise correct wiki editing. I will revert YOUR error again now, and if you revert it back I'll call in a third party. 124.181.73.144 (talk) 22:39, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

YOUR edit stuffs up the template for virtually all browsers - Firefox, Safari, Opera, Google Chrome and IE9 in 'compatibility view'. Anyway Stonyisalegend has corrected it. Mtiges (talk) 13:06, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

Response to third opinion request:

I am responding to a third opinion request for this page. I have made no previous edits on the template in question, and have no known association with the editors involved in this discussion. The third opinion process is informal and I have no special powers or authority apart from being a fresh pair of eyes. I can confirm that Stonyisalegend's fix works for both Firefox 5 and IE8, which is the result both of you should have been trying to get from the start. You both had valid points, but your versions were both broken (Mtiges's in IE, and the IP's in Firefox). We want as many readers as possible to be able to view our content, and so any template that doesn't display correctly in all browsers is a problem. Next time, I would suggest both of you try to find a solution that works for everyone instead of just reverting until you hit WP:3RR. I don't think there is any more need to comment on this issue, but in case either of you is not satisfied I will be watching this page for a while. All the best.—— Mr. Stradivarius ♫ 08:00, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

I'm grateful it has been fixed by Stonyisalegend and appreciate your third opinion Mr. Stradivarius but it would never have got this if the unidentified user actually made some attempt to specify that the error was appearing in IE non-compatibility view mode. He made no attempt whatsoever to offer any explanation despite being wrong himself. It is difficult to take someone who hides behind a IP address seriously. I use Firefox and other non-IE browsers and if I use IE it's in compatibility view so I wasn't seeing any issue and no other editor had mentioned any problem in the six months since the template was created (I'm not a mind reader). Anyway I'm glad it's all fixed now and time to move on. Mtiges (talk) 04:21, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

Don't worry about it - I can see that you were acting in good faith, and it's always annoying when a template breaks. I have seen plenty of edits that break pages and blatantly violate Wikipedia policies, but nine times out of ten the user has a perfectly good reason for making the edit, even if the execution of it is bad. In cases like this I find it's very useful to try and find the reason behind the edit, especially if you revert it but your revert gets undone. Remember, IPs are people too! Let me know if anything else comes up. — Mr. Stradivarius ^♫ 04:58, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

Non-free rationale for File:Maroochy North Shore Jumper.jpg

Thanks for uploading or contributing to File:Maroochy North Shore Jumper.jpg. I notice the file page specifies that the file is being used under non-free content criteria, but there is not a suitable explanation or rationale as to why each specific use in Wikipedia is acceptable. Please go to the file description page, and edit it to include a non-free rationale.

If you have uploaded other non-free media, consider checking that you have specified the non-free rationale on those pages too. You can find a list of 'file' pages you have edited by clicking on the "my contributions" link (it is located at the very top of any Wikipedia page when you are logged in), and then selecting "File" from the dropdown box. Note that any non-free media lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If the file is already gone, you can still make a request for undeletion and ask for a chance to fix the problem. If you have any questions, please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. Sfan00 IMG (talk) 11:59, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free image File:PerthDemonslogo.gif

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Thanks for uploading File:PerthDemonslogo.gif. The image description page currently specifies that the image is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, the image is currently not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the image was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that images for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

Note that any non-free images not used in any articles will be deleted after seven days, as described in the criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. Skier Dude (talk) 03:25, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

Non-free files in your user space

Hey there Mtiges, thank you for your contributions! I am a bot, alerting you that non-free files are not allowed in user or talk space. I removed some files I found on User:Mtiges/League Championship Cup.

• See a log of files removed today here.
• Shut off the bot here.
• Report errors here.
• If you have any questions, place a {{helpme}} template, along with your question, beneath this message.

Thank you, -- DASHBot (talk) 05:06, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free image File:FoxtelCup.png

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Thanks for uploading File:FoxtelCup.png. The image description page currently specifies that the image is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, the image is currently not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the image was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that images for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

Note that any non-free images not used in any articles will be deleted after seven days, as described in the criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. Skier Dude (talk) 06:00, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Fair use criteria added to image FoxtelCup.png. Re-instated to Foxtel Cup pages. Mtiges (talk) 14:03, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free image File:Newcarrara.jpg

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Thanks for uploading File:Newcarrara.jpg. The image description page currently specifies that the image is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, the image is currently not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the image was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that images for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

Note that any non-free images not used in any articles will be deleted after seven days, as described in the criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. Themeparkgc  Talk  23:20, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free image File:BendigoBomberslogo.jpg

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Thanks for uploading File:BendigoBomberslogo.jpg. The image description page currently specifies that the image is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, the image is currently not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the image was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that images for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

Note that any non-free images not used in any articles will be deleted after seven days, as described in the criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. Skier Dude (talk) 03:28, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free image File:MayneTigerslogo.jpg

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Thanks for uploading File:MayneTigerslogo.jpg. The image description page currently specifies that the image is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, the image is currently not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the image was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that images for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

Note that any non-free images not used in any articles will be deleted after seven days, as described in the criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. Sfan00 IMG (talk) 11:16, 19 May 2012 (UTC)

Non-free rationale for File:Springwood Pumas Jumper.png

Thanks for uploading or contributing to File:Springwood Pumas Jumper.png. I notice the file page specifies that the file is being used under non-free content criteria, but there is not a suitable explanation or rationale as to why each specific use in Wikipedia is acceptable. Please go to the file description page, and edit it to include a non-free rationale.

If you have uploaded other non-free media, consider checking that you have specified the non-free rationale on those pages too. You can find a list of 'file' pages you have edited by clicking on the "my contributions" link (it is located at the very top of any Wikipedia page when you are logged in), and then selecting "File" from the dropdown box. Note that any non-free media lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If the file is already gone, you can still make a request for undeletion and ask for a chance to fix the problem. If you have any questions, please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. Sfan00 IMG (talk) 15:01, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Non-free rationale for File:Sandgate Hawks Jumper.png

Thanks for uploading or contributing to File:Sandgate Hawks Jumper.png. I notice the file page specifies that the file is being used under non-free content criteria, but there is not a suitable explanation or rationale as to why each specific use in Wikipedia is acceptable. Please go to the file description page, and edit it to include a non-free rationale.

If you have uploaded other non-free media, consider checking that you have specified the non-free rationale on those pages too. You can find a list of 'file' pages you have edited by clicking on the "my contributions" link (it is located at the very top of any Wikipedia page when you are logged in), and then selecting "File" from the dropdown box. Note that any non-free media lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If the file is already gone, you can still make a request for undeletion and ask for a chance to fix the problem. If you have any questions, please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. Sfan00 IMG (talk) 16:32, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Non-free content policy and guideline

I am in the process of going through the non-free jumper images you uploaded in the past few days and removing many of their uses. We have significant restrictions on where and how non-free images may be used, which precludes usage for mere identification of the team as was the case in Foxtel Cup, for example. Please let me know if you have any questions about this. VernoWhitney (talk) 18:33, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

Firstly, these jumpers are not for "mere identification". They are the team's specific jumper which is unique to each club and is a crucial element of each club's culture. It's not like Soccer where in recent decades official logos were put on plain coloured jumpers where supporters still relate to the plain coloured jumper (eg: the red of Liverpool, blue of Chelsea). Australian Football jumpers often have animals or symbols incorporated into them. It's part of the actual jumper design (not simply a logo addition). I'm presuming you're not Australian as you would have already known this otherwise. Carlton Football Club for instance has had a CFC monogram in the middle of their jumper since 1908! You just can't pretend these animals and symbols don't exist; I repeat it's actually part of their jumper design! Putting a token generic plain coloured jumper without the animal or symbol on it as a replacement is meaningless as well as inaccurate as it would have nothing to do with that particular club and no one who follows Australian Football would recognise it as a club's jumper if they visited such club's wikipedia page. You might as well delete virtually every jumper on every Australian Football wiki page based on your reasoning. Some clubs have stripes, some have hoops, some have animal designs, some have monograms, etc. All could technically be argued as "mere identifications" of each respective club if we were to go down that path.

Secondly, there is inconsistency with what jumpers you have decided to delete and those you haven't even though the argument you're trying to put forward would apply to all of these jumpers if it was valid. For example, the Sydney Hills Eagles jumper is a copy of the clash strip of the Perth-based professional (AFL) football club West Coast Eagles as the Sydney club has an affiliation with the professional club. The West Coast Eagles jumper is still allowed on wikipedia on multiple pages yet not the Sydney Hills jumper. Makes no sense whatsoever! There are numerous examples where Australian Football jumper designs incorporate their club's logo into the design - the yoke of the Sydney Swans jumper with the red "vee" and the Sydney opera house is also their logo (the jumper preceded the current logo) while GWS has the "Big G" on their jumper. As I said you'll be deleting most jumpers on wikipedia at this rate.

Thirdly, most of these deleted jumpers had existed on wikipedia for a number of years without issue and in some cases had been given the okay by other wikipedia mods in the past. It gets frustrating and tiring having to discuss and argue with mods, who come along long after the event and long after these images had been originally contributed to wikipedia, who delete images with no knowledge of what has gone on before and with no knowledge of Australian Football and its culture. Interestingly, this usually occurs during our Australian summer and hence Australian Football's off-season when those that contribute to Australian Football wikipedia pages aren't paying regular attention to these pages and so return later on only to find images deleted from their pages and the period for dispute discussion expired. So you have to start again and go through the whole process once again. It's only lucky I had kept copies otherwise these jumper designs would have been lost for good. I see now the Tuggeranong jumper has been nominated for deletion on Christmas Eve a whole 3.5 years after it was added to wikipedia and the reason for it being deleted is incorrect as the hawk is totally different to the club's logo and the pic you've used as justification for deleting it is from 5 years ago I believe and of a jumper they no longer wear. The only problem there is the jumper image needs updating on wikipedia which I can do.

It's fair enough to demand non-free rationale and copyright disclaimers for these jumpers where appropriate but to bar them completely from wikipedia (which is the implication of what you're suggesting and doing) and in such an inconsistent manner and in some cases years after they were submitted is utterly ridiculous and overkill. Anyone with a ounce of commonsense would see it as so! Mtiges (talk) 12:02, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

I am absolutely not suggesting or doing anything resembling barring the jumpers from Wikipedia entirely. I am saying that they need to comply with all of our non-free content policy requirements just like every other non-free image we host. WP:NFCC#8 is generally satisfied by default when using logos (and similar) for identification on the article about the club itself (e.g., Tuggeranong Football Club), but in general there needs to be critical commentary on the image for it to be used in other circumstances. That critical commentary about the jumper designs is simply lacking from the articles about the leagues and cups.

I am aware that the jumpers are not simply colored shirts with logos added on, but if they contain copyrighted elements then they are treated as non-free. In the absence of evidence to the contrary, all it takes is a small amount of creativity to allow the design on the jumper to be copyrightable and automatically copyrighted. If there is evidence that the images are in fact free then that should be documented and the images can be retagged as free. The reason File:West coast bombrars.png is still located on multiple pages is because it is marked as free and hosted on Commons. As you have already noted I nominated one jumper on Commons for deletion, and I will likely nominate more as I get around to evaluating them. This is not to say that we should not use images of the jumpers, just that they should be hosted locally on Wikipedia, marked as non-free, and used only in limited situations.

If there have been previous discussions about the copyright status of the jumpers and/or their use with regards to our non-free content policy and guideline, I would greatly appreciate it if you could point me at them so I can see what points have been previously made. VernoWhitney (talk) 20:45, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

The two notifications above this discussion - File:Springwood Pumas Jumper.png and File:Sandgate Hawks Jumper.png - were allowed after I was told to include "a suitable explanation or rationale as to why each specific use in Wikipedia is acceptable" for each non-free image. Both images have animals on each jumper and have since been allowed to be displayed on each club's wikipedia page as well as on the pages of the respective leagues they belong to.

It should be noted that many of the jumpers I've contributed during the past few weeks were originally contributed as free by other users and did originally reside on Wikipedia Commons for a number of years. They were deleted recently because another mod (or bot) classed them as non-free images and removed all of them altogether from wikipedia. Hence, I was just re-contributing them this time as non-free images with a suitable rationale for each specific use where they were originally located. The West Coast jumper which is still listed as free and on the Commons was not deleted even though there was no policy difference for the others deletion while this and other similar jumpers remained. On the other hand, the removal of the Wollongong Lions and Pennant Hills Demons jumpers from various pages now has them classed as orphans and signaled for deletion (see notifications below our discussion).

There are many other similar images of jumpers which are listed as free on the Commons that in future could be classed by some mod as non-free due to having elements of club logos incorporated into the jumper design. Brisbane Lions, Sydney Swans, Gold Coast Football Club, Carlton Football Club, Greater Western Sydney Football Club and West Coast Eagles jumpers all fit into this category and that's just in the professional AFL competition page. In my opinion any future removal of these jumpers from the AFL wikipedia page would seriously undermine and diminish that page's contextual significance Wikipedia:NFCC#8. For anyone who follows Australian Football this is obvious for traditional, cultural as well as identity reasons and why contributors to these Australian Football league pages have all followed the same procedure of including club jumpers. You instantly obtain an easy to understand and follow overall picture of each league competition (as you do with other sports on wikipedia that include jumpers on their league pages). It's not done just to make each Australian Football wikipedia page look more colourful and pretty to the eye. This in my opinion also applies to all Australian Football state leagues as well - SANFL, WAFL, Victorian Football League, North East Australian Football League, Tasmanian Football League, Northern Territory Football League and Sydney AFL along with the Foxtel Cup and TAC Cup - many of these state league clubs are affiliated with professional clubs and hence share similar identities (colours, monikers, logos and jumpers). For the past two decades the AFL controls and run Australian Football from top to bottom. Nothing in Australian Football is independent of it. It is all interconnected. I would add for the Foxtel Cup pages that the jumpers are a record of which clubs have participated in it since the competition began in 2010 and a record of what name they used and jumper they wore at that time. For instance, the Northern Bullants have since changed to the Northern Blues and from a red jumper with an white ant to a navy blue jumper with the CFC monogram in keeping with its affiliation with the Carlton Football Club.

Other sports too have parts of their logo incorporated in their jumpers. Melbourne Victory in Australia's soccer competition, A league, has the "V" from their logo on their jumper while Melbourne Storm in the NRL has lightning strikes from their logo on their jumper. There seems to be only an issue with animals and monograms on Australian Football jumpers with certain wikipedia mods.... hmmm!

If we are going to get so technical about copyright status of each particular item on wikipedia, then it should be noted that the AFL owns a total of 278 registered trade marks such as the names, nicknames, logos, uniforms (which includes jumpers), players' images, etc... Technically any and all of these could be classed as forbidden if a strict adherence was followed as the whole jumper design is the property of the AFL. No club can make a change to its jumper without strict permission granted from the AFL. Furthermore, each non-pro league also has final say over each club's identity (name, moniker, colours, jumper design, etc) allowed within its respective league. I run a Richmond Football Club supporters' forum and website and, unlike wikipedia, we are not allowed to display our own club's logo nor that of the AFL even if we were to exactly follow wikipedia policies and state the images were non-free, were the property of the AFL, etc. I can tell you the AFL and its legal department are ruthlessly protective of its trademarks and would have come down on wikipedia like a tonne of bricks long ago if it deemed wikipedia was violating the use of AFL intellectual property and branding. They don't because wikipedia is presenting the information in an encyclopaedic manner which isn't a breach of any copyright law. As a website owner myself, I truly appreciate the need to be vigilant in trying to protect wikipedia from any legal risk but in this case regarding the Australian Football jumpers it is way over the top. It will lead to jumpers being removed from the various state league pages as right now these pages look incomplete and unfinished with only some clubs having jumpers and while others don't. A reader of the Sydney AFL page right now would think there's only six clubs in the premier division rather than the actual twelve. So it looks like we're forced to either have incomplete looking pages with missing jumper info here and there or remove all the jumpers entirely. Now that is ridiculous when accurate information is removed!

ps. It appears different mods vary greatly in their interpretation and judgement of wikipedia policies relating to Australian Football and for a contributor this is very frustrating. One mod will give something the okay; another mod will state that various restrictions apply to this same item; while another forbids the same item altogether. This has not just been in relation to these jumpers either. I once contributed a image of the design plan for the redeveloped Carrara stadium (File:Newcarrara.jpg - see above notification). The old stadium had been totally demolished and so the old stadium pic became irrelevant as it was long out of date and incorrect. Despite similar design plan images being allowed on wikipedia for other stadiums undergoing redevelopment around the world, one mod took exception to this one particular image. I had to take it further up the wikipedia mod channels to finally get the issue resolved and in the end the image was allowed to remain (of course until a free real-life image of the completed redeveloped stadium was taken when construction was finally completed). All we ask for is consistency!

pps. I notice the jumper image on Newcastle United F.C. contains their logo and sponsor albeit they are tiny. Likewise Chelsea_F.C. and A.C. Milan's jumper images have tiny adidas logos on them. In each case no non-free rationale has been supplied despite the use of logos. I don't see the wikipedia mods deleting these!

Mtiges (talk) 18:46, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

I'm afraid I don't feel like reading through the multiple pages of your response to get all of the details, so I'll just reply with some highlights for now: Regarding the two notifications above, requiring a FUR to allow any non-free image use is not the same as allowing any use of images so long as FURs are provided. That is only one point of WP:NFCC. Free images can be used in ways that non-free images can not--so if an image is incorrectly labeled as free its usage may need to be reduced (or it deleted entirely) once it is deemed to be non-free. Trademarks are largely irrelevant for how we use images on Wikipedia, copyright is all that matters, and so simple 'V' designs and the like which are not copyrightable (i.e., they do not meet the threshold of creativity) are not an issue. Some of the football kit logos are too small/obscured to matter (i.e. de minimis), and others such as File:Adidas Logo.svg are too simple). Some of them, however, might very well be too complex to qualify as 'free' and should be deleted from Commons and reuploaded locally for limited use as non-free content. With regards to varying standards by mods—as I said above, if there has been actual previous discussion, please point it out to me. Templated notifications about straightforward and obvious failures to meet some of the WP:NFCC requirements are not a conversation. If it is simply a matter of some rules not being enforced consistently, please see WP:OSE.

Again, these are just some things that stood out to me, so please do not take it as a comprehensive reply. VernoWhitney (talk) 21:13, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

If the copyright holder were to upload these jumpers onto Wikipedia Commons and allow free/public domain usage would this alter things?

If these jumpers were shrunk so that the 'offending' image on the jumper was ineligible and then uploaded onto the Commons would this alter things? Mtiges (talk) 10:52, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

If the copyright holder(s) were to verifiably release the jumper designs into the public domain or under a free license, then yes, that would alter things. (An important related note: A release for use on Wikipedia-only or educational-use-only wouldn't be sufficient.) At that point they could be used basically anywhere on Wikipedia. This is only an issue with the use of non-free content.

If the images were altered (blurred/shrunk/otherwise edited) so that any creative and thus copyrightable content was de minimus, then yes, that would also alter things. At that point it would also be public domain and a specific release from the copyright holder of the actual original design would be unnecessary. Of course de minimis is not a clear-cut standard so the only real way to get firm consensus on a particular image is when the image is put up for deletion (either here or on Commons) and the community weighs in.

Now whether an image is actually hosted here or on Commons doesn't change how an image can be used -- that's all determined by the copyright status. It's only that it usually takes me longer to get around to working on files on Commons. VernoWhitney (talk) 17:57, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for that info, Verno. Do you have an example on Wikipedia, or wherever else for that matter, of what constitutes a verifiable release of a design into the public domain or under a free license by a copyright holder? I can contact the various clubs who are the copyright holders but I want to be sure and specifically clear what is required from them before contacting them. Mtiges (talk) 17:41, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

We have a recommended template at Wikipedia:Declaration of consent for all enquiries. VernoWhitney (talk) 19:51, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

As an FYI, as well as for my own (or others) future reference: some AFL club logos were provided directly from the AFL back in 2006 via OTRS email Ticket:2006051410009918. While they were provided by the copyright holder, it was only for the purposes of fair use (i.e., as non-free content) and not under any sort of free license. VernoWhitney (talk) 23:15, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

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Jumper has been put back. It shouldn't have been removed by the person who last edited the Palm Beach Currumbin Australian Football Club page. Mtiges (talk) 15:09, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

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Thanks. Fixed link. Mtiges (talk) 09:55, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

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Thanks. Fixed links. Mtiges (talk) 05:42, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

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I would've thought checking for code errors (by someone else) in a recently edited article that contained the image would've been looked at and corrected first before mods sent messages about deleting images.

I've corrected the typo in the code so this image is still being used. Mtiges (talk) 10:48, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

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Another user made a typo in the code of the article that contained this image. It's now been corrected so this image is still in use. Mtiges (talk) 10:50, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

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Thanks. Fixed. Mtiges (talk) 02:21, 29 April 2015 (UTC)

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Orphaned non-free image File:Noosa Jumper.png

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Orphaned non-free image File:UTSAFC Jumper.jpg

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Orphaned non-free image File:Northern Bullants jumper.jpeg

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Orphaned non-free image File:Pennant Hills Demons Jumper.jpg

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Orphaned non-free image File:St George Dragons Jumper.jpg

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Orphaned non-free image File:Western Suburbs Magpies Jumper.jpg

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Orphaned non-free image File:Holroyd Parramatta Jumper.png

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Orphaned non-free image File:MoorebankSportsMagpieslogo.jpg

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Orphaned non-free image File:Penrith Rams Jumper.png

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Orphaned non-free image File:SaintsAFClogo.jpg

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Orphaned non-free image File:CamdenCatsjumper.jpg

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Orphaned non-free image File:Nor-WestJets Jumper.png

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Orphaned non-free image File:Wollongong Lions jumper.jpg

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Nomination for deletion of Template:10TeamBracket-AustralianFootball

Template:10TeamBracket-AustralianFootball has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the entry on the Templates for discussion page. – Pbrks ^(t • c) 15:43, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

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