User talk:Mlaffs/Archives/2019/November
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WAMM / WSVG
WAMM 1230 AM changed its call sign to WSVG the day that its license was surrendered, swapping call signs with WSVG AM 790. As its license has been cancelled neither call sign is technically the station's current call sign, and the consensus in recent page move discussions has been that per WP:COMMONNAME defunct stations should not be titled with call signs that they only held for a few days before the license was cancelled or only held while silent. In this case 1230 AM in Woodstock, Virginia held the call sign WAMM for 28 years and WSVG for only one day.--Tdl1060 (talk) 05:22, 28 October 2019 (UTC)
- @Tdl1060: Yeah, but that's HIGHLY confusing and clearly why I disagreed with those discussions. WAMM 1230 left the air as WSVG. WSVG 790 is now WAMM. Confusing the reader for no real reason is unnecessary. Respectfully, I wouldn't call one discussion "consensus" and ignore the past ways we did things, also consensus. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 05:41 on October 28, 2019 (UTC)
- @Neutralhomer: There were at least two recent page move discussions on this subject Talk:WDND (1490 AM) and Talk:WLQR (AM). Where it can get confusing is if one attempts to determine the peak of a station's popularity and name the article based on the call sign it held during that time, as some suggested in the discussion at Talk:WDND (1490 AM). In that discussion, no one favored naming the article by the call sign it last held. What is also both confusing and against policy is to have articles titled with a name that most people interested in the station would not recognize it by. The case at hand is actually a lot less confusing than the cases in the aforementioned discussions. AM 1230 in Woodstock, Virginia held one call sign over its 28 year history, up until the day its license was surrendered. The only option that will confuse readers is having the article titled WSVG, a call sign that the vast majority of people who are interested in the station would only associate with AM 790.--Tdl1060 (talk) 06:46, 28 October 2019 (UTC)
- @Tdl1060: In the case of WDND, I think the correct decision was made. With WLQR, I think it should be moved to WTOD. Wikipedia is not a popularity contest, we are an encyclopedia. That's what everyone is forgetting. We name things what they are named, not what makes them "easier to remember" or "what is popular". If so, we should rename SpongeBob "yellow cartoon sponge man" because I think it's funny...and it makes SpongeBob easier to remember (also I saw it on an episode of "Elementary"). WVHT should be renamed WCMS because that's what most people remember it by. WSBN should be renamed back to WMAL (AM) because it was under those calls since 1925. But we don't because we are an encyclopedia, not a popularity contest and that would just be silly and confusing to the reader. Plus, WCMS is already in use and WMAL is as well, as the sole callsign of the FM side of a one-time AM/FM simulcast. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 07:04 on October 28, 2019 (UTC)
- @Neutralhomer: I agree that Wikipedia is not a popularity contest, which is why I supported WDND over WNDU as the page title for South Bend's 1490 AM. In the case of Hartsville, South Carolina's 1450 AM, I considered WTOD an acceptable title, as I stated in that discussion. In both of those cases, you are agreeing that the page title should not be the call sign that it held for only a brief period of time or when the station was silent. WAMM/WSVG is actually a much more straightforward case than South Bend's 1490 AM or Hartsville's 1450 AM. Both of those stations held multiple call signs over their history, while Woodstock's 1230 AM only held one until the day its license was surrendered. South Bend's 1490 held the call sign WPNT for two years, though it was silent during the entire period and Hartsville's 1450 held the call sign WLQR for four days, both of which are longer periods than Woodstock's 1230 held the call sign WSVG.
- @Tdl1060: In the case of WDND, I think the correct decision was made. With WLQR, I think it should be moved to WTOD. Wikipedia is not a popularity contest, we are an encyclopedia. That's what everyone is forgetting. We name things what they are named, not what makes them "easier to remember" or "what is popular". If so, we should rename SpongeBob "yellow cartoon sponge man" because I think it's funny...and it makes SpongeBob easier to remember (also I saw it on an episode of "Elementary"). WVHT should be renamed WCMS because that's what most people remember it by. WSBN should be renamed back to WMAL (AM) because it was under those calls since 1925. But we don't because we are an encyclopedia, not a popularity contest and that would just be silly and confusing to the reader. Plus, WCMS is already in use and WMAL is as well, as the sole callsign of the FM side of a one-time AM/FM simulcast. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 07:04 on October 28, 2019 (UTC)
- @Neutralhomer: There were at least two recent page move discussions on this subject Talk:WDND (1490 AM) and Talk:WLQR (AM). Where it can get confusing is if one attempts to determine the peak of a station's popularity and name the article based on the call sign it held during that time, as some suggested in the discussion at Talk:WDND (1490 AM). In that discussion, no one favored naming the article by the call sign it last held. What is also both confusing and against policy is to have articles titled with a name that most people interested in the station would not recognize it by. The case at hand is actually a lot less confusing than the cases in the aforementioned discussions. AM 1230 in Woodstock, Virginia held one call sign over its 28 year history, up until the day its license was surrendered. The only option that will confuse readers is having the article titled WSVG, a call sign that the vast majority of people who are interested in the station would only associate with AM 790.--Tdl1060 (talk) 06:46, 28 October 2019 (UTC)
- As far as the other examples you cited, both of those are active stations and no one is arguing that active stations should not be titled by their current call sign. That would run contrary to WP:NCBC. However, Woodstock's 1230 AM is not an active station, so WSVG is not its current call sign any more than WAMM is. If we were to go strictly by FCC records the page would be titled DWSVG. However, it is not Wikipedia policy to strictly "name things what they are named." We have the policy WP:COMMONNAME. "DWSVG" would be a violation of that policy, as is "WSVG (AM)".--Tdl1060 (talk) 08:24, 28 October 2019 (UTC)
- @Tdl1060: If going by the, last used on the air logic, the WAMM callsign was technically used on 1230 AM for 24 hours prior to sign off, but the station held is license for another 24 hours, until October 2. The FCC gave them the entire day of October 1 to file before deleting the license on October 2. So, techically, it was used 48 hours in total, 24 on air, 24 off. 1230 operated, though, as a simulcaster of 790 for the last couple years, so it's not surprising that frequency was the one picked to go. Plus, they didn't have a great signal day or night. Getting off topic, "WSVG (AM)" actually isn't a violation of policy as we have many other stations have use the "WXXX (AM)" naming format, for example WKCY (AM), WINC (AM), WBTL (AM), WEVA (AM)...and that's just 4 out of many. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 10:08 on October 28, 2019 (UTC)
- @Neutralhomer: It's not the "(AM)" disambiguator that I was saying was a violation of policy. What I was saying was that using WSVG with any disambiguator violates WP:COMMONNAME. Whether the call sign was technically held for 24 hours or 48 hours is irrelevant. The vast majority of readers would not know the station by this call sign.--Tdl1060 (talk) 10:34, 28 October 2019 (UTC)
- @Tdl1060: I did misunderstand there, thanks for the clarification. The reason for the (AM) part for WSVG is actually because Mlaffs created a disambig page to differentiate between the two WAMMs and WSVGs. Also, WFLT got caught up in the WAMM disambig too since it previous had the callsign and an airport in Indonesia. The World Series of Video Games is listed on the WSVG page. So, neither can go back to just "WAMM" or "WSVG" because they are disambig pages now. This is a good thing in my option as we can show the reader on those pages that the station was only WSVG for 2 days and even moreso within the text itself on the WSVG (AM) page. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 14:44 on October 29, 2019 (UTC)
- @Neutralhomer: I have no problem with the disambiguation pages. All I'm arguing is that WSVG (AM) should be moved back to WAMM (1230 AM).--Tdl1060 (talk) 22:34, 29 October 2019 (UTC)
- @Tdl1060: I did misunderstand there, thanks for the clarification. The reason for the (AM) part for WSVG is actually because Mlaffs created a disambig page to differentiate between the two WAMMs and WSVGs. Also, WFLT got caught up in the WAMM disambig too since it previous had the callsign and an airport in Indonesia. The World Series of Video Games is listed on the WSVG page. So, neither can go back to just "WAMM" or "WSVG" because they are disambig pages now. This is a good thing in my option as we can show the reader on those pages that the station was only WSVG for 2 days and even moreso within the text itself on the WSVG (AM) page. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 14:44 on October 29, 2019 (UTC)
- @Neutralhomer: It's not the "(AM)" disambiguator that I was saying was a violation of policy. What I was saying was that using WSVG with any disambiguator violates WP:COMMONNAME. Whether the call sign was technically held for 24 hours or 48 hours is irrelevant. The vast majority of readers would not know the station by this call sign.--Tdl1060 (talk) 10:34, 28 October 2019 (UTC)
- @Tdl1060: If going by the, last used on the air logic, the WAMM callsign was technically used on 1230 AM for 24 hours prior to sign off, but the station held is license for another 24 hours, until October 2. The FCC gave them the entire day of October 1 to file before deleting the license on October 2. So, techically, it was used 48 hours in total, 24 on air, 24 off. 1230 operated, though, as a simulcaster of 790 for the last couple years, so it's not surprising that frequency was the one picked to go. Plus, they didn't have a great signal day or night. Getting off topic, "WSVG (AM)" actually isn't a violation of policy as we have many other stations have use the "WXXX (AM)" naming format, for example WKCY (AM), WINC (AM), WBTL (AM), WEVA (AM)...and that's just 4 out of many. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 10:08 on October 28, 2019 (UTC)
- As far as the other examples you cited, both of those are active stations and no one is arguing that active stations should not be titled by their current call sign. That would run contrary to WP:NCBC. However, Woodstock's 1230 AM is not an active station, so WSVG is not its current call sign any more than WAMM is. If we were to go strictly by FCC records the page would be titled DWSVG. However, it is not Wikipedia policy to strictly "name things what they are named." We have the policy WP:COMMONNAME. "DWSVG" would be a violation of that policy, as is "WSVG (AM)".--Tdl1060 (talk) 08:24, 28 October 2019 (UTC)
@Tdl1060: I respectfully disagree. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 21:10 on October 30, 2019 (UTC)
Administrators' newsletter – November 2019
News and updates for administrators from the past month (October 2019).
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Guideline and policy news
- An RfC was closed with the consensus that the resysop criteria should be made stricter.
- The follow-up RfC to develop that change is now open at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/2019 Resysop Criteria (2).
- A related RfC is seeking the community's sentiment for a binding desysop procedure.
Arbitration
- Eligible editors may now nominate themselves as candidates for the 2019 Arbitration Committee Elections. The self-nomination period will close November 12, with voting running from November 19 through December 2.