User talk:Mandarax/Archive 3
 | This is an archive of past discussions with User:Mandarax. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
| Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | → | Archive 10 |
Governing bodies of sports in Wales
Hiya Mandarax, I noticed that you'd set your AWB bot on the Senedd article and found a couple of things (easily overlooked). If you have the time, would you mind setting your bot to look over Governing bodies of sports in Wales, which I created yesterday. It's 77k bytes, so, as you can imagine my eyes are swimming and I'm sure to have missed loads of typos etc. Many thanks, Daicaregos (talk) 09:06, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
- Done. Looks like you did a good job of proofreading, as AWB only found a few things to change. By the way, I don't use AWB as a bot; it's a semi-automated tool, and I inspect all changes (and sometimes make additional manual ones) before saving. MANdARAX • XAЯAbИAM 09:23, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
- Thanks very much for doing that, much appreciated. Best, Daicaregos (talk) 09:33, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
Many thanks for correcting my careless mistake in his birth year. Paste Let’s have a chat. 07:01, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
- You're welcome. MANdARAX • XAЯAbИAM 07:35, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for the Mac-education
Thank you for educating me in sort keys at Mary McDonnell! — .`^) Paine Ellsworthdiss`cuss (^`. 04:30, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
- Thanks for your note. MANdARAX • XAЯAbИAM 05:25, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
A small request
Can you please add listas at the bottom of WPBiography instead of the top. Since 99.99% of the articles have it this way, it may be useful for bots and programs. Thanks, Magioladitis (talk) 23:32, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
For my AWB configuration, it was just much simpler to add the listas at the beginning. I figured that since it makes no difference functionally, and I knew of no specific standard for ordering named parameters, it wouldn't matter. But, since you requested it, I've changed my settings so that I'll now add 'em to the end. MANdARAX • XAЯAbИAM 04:45, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
- Note — I considered also moving existing listas parameters which I come across. I decided against moving them because I generally only encounter them when they're in need of correction, and I feel that it's more valuable to have the diffs line up so it's easy to see the changes which I've made. MANdARAX • XAЯAbИAM 09:12, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
labaC Cabal
Don't try to deny your membership in this Cabal. The evidence is right there on your talk page![[1]]. Harry Carry, by the way, was the annoucer for the Chicago Cubs for many years and one of his tricks was to read people (and players) names backwards. Thanks for your work against vandals. --Buster7 (talk) 23:35, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
- Wєll, I woN'T dєNY THAT I'M A MєMbєR, buT I do AdMiT THAT I HAdN'T HєARd About iT. I AppRєciATє YouR NoTє.
- .эToи яuoY эTAiɔэяqqA I .Ti TuodA bяAэH T'иbAH I TAHT TiMbA ob I Tud ,яэdMэM A M'I TAHT Yиэb T'иow I ,llэW
Thank you
|
The Defender of the Wiki Barnstar | |
| This is being offered in appreciation of your excellent work within the WP:UAA sector of Wikipedia. Thank you very much for your wonderful input. Pastor Theo (talk) 09:53, 7 August 2009 (UTC) |
- Thanks a lot for the barnstar and your kind words! I really appreciate it. MANdARAX • XAЯAbИAM 10:27, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
UAA reports
I believe you are being unnecessarily aggressive with your UAA reports, and that your reports don't reflect the username policy.
UAA is for requesting immediate blocks based on the username, not for alerting administrators to any problems that may exist. For example, many of your reports for "promotion" belong instead on the conflict of interest noticeboard. The reason is that the conflict of interest may actually be a problem, whereas a string such as "Hufs" or "Zz022" has such a negligible or non-existent promotional effect that the username is not a problem. It's certainly very far from the kind of problem that requires an immediate block (see the "Dealing with inappropriate usernames" section of the policy for a list of your options).
The username policy states that "Explicit use of a name or url of a company, group or product as a username is not permitted", and even this was an edge case that was much debated on WT:U. "Hufs" is not an explicit company name. "Willfrancis" is not even a promotion; you correctly identified that it was just a conflict of interest, but reported the user to UAA anyway when there's nothing for the username policy to do about it. "Zz022" has absolutely nothing wrong with it as a username.
I fear you may be digging through the new user logs for names to report to UAA, disregarding more appropriate ways to deal with the issues you find. rspεεr (talk) 06:28, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
- My reports are consistent with the username policy. As you pointed out, it states: "Explicit use of a name or url of a company, group or product as a username is not permitted." It further states "Accounts that represent an entire group or company are not permitted". The Hufs account represents Hankuk University of Foreign Studies, and added at least two links to hufs.ac.kr. Similarly, user Zz022 was promoting a website with that url. The policy does not specify that a certain level of promotional effect is required before it's a violation. If you disagree with the policy, as you apparently do, you should work on getting it changed.
- I did hesitate before reporting Willfrancis, and only did so because a bureaucrat had just answered a question about promotional usernames which are the same as a person's name by saying "Behavior is more important ... than the username itself", and that promotional usernames should be blocked regardless of whether it's also a person's name. In this case, Willfrancis was promoting seven blogs and other websites, all of which included the username in the url.
- All of these users taint Wikipedia with their promotional edits, and, by their behavior, their usernames do violate the current policy. Other administrators seem to agree with me. I've made about a hundred to a hundred fifty reports to UAA, and all but two or three have resulted in blocks.
- However, since you seem to be disturbed by my reports, I will attempt to restrict myself to reporting only the most egregious offenders. MANdARAX • XAЯAbИAM 08:22, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
- I agree with the policy as it is written, especially as I was involved in the discussion that produced it. We explicitly decided to leave out abbreviations or references to company names as something that would be blockable, because the Conflict of Interest policy is much better equipped to deal with them. So having your username be an acronym (Hufs) or a fragment of a URL that's your username on the Blogspot you happen to be linking to (Zz022) is intentionally not covered by the policy. It's just not a reasonable use of the username policy. rspεεr (talk) 15:33, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
- Your response seems to dismiss my report on Hufs (talk · contribs) because it was an acronym. But I do not report usernames just because they're acronyms of group or company names. I had come across many such usernames recently and I had not reported any of them just on that basis. My report on Hufs said: "Username gives the impression that the account represents Hankuk University of Foreign Studies, as they added links to hufs.ac.kr". To me, Hufs seemed to warrant a block on two criteria. 1) The username is the significant portion of the organization's url which they added to a page in two places, and 2) there is virtually no doubt that the account represents that organization, a clear violation of the username policy which states: "Accounts that represent an entire group or company are not permitted". Even though you disagree with me, surely you can see that I was attempting to abide by a valid interpretation of the current policy.
- I noticed that you mentioned the Hufs case at WT:Username policy and got varying opinions. In particular, Dank (talk · contribs) wrote:
Current consensus is that we don't block "Abcd" if the company name is "A Better Car Dealer", but we do instablock it if they've made at least one edit that nails down the connection to their group or organization, and their company or website goes by "Abcd", and if there's nothing positive counterbalancing that. This opinion is 100% in agreement with me.
- I noticed that you mentioned the Hufs case at WT:Username policy and got varying opinions. In particular, Dank (talk · contribs) wrote:
- I wanted to point out that I'm not "unnecessarily aggressive" and I'm not "using the process irresponsibly". Thank you again for apologizing, but I felt that I had to explicitly say this. I am not someone who recklessly edits Wikipedia, including my UAA reports. I edit carefully, calmly, logically, thoughtfully, and responsibly. For example, as you now know, a week before you first contacted me, I asked for advice about a username which I did not report because I was unsure of the correct policy interpretation. (Your response there disagrees with the bureaucrat who initially answered me.) MANdARAX • XAЯAbИAM 06:14, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
- While we disagree, I recognize that I have reacted too harshly. I apologize in particular for bringing this to Pastor Theo's talk page. rspεεr (talk) 02:28, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
- Thank you very much. Your apology means a lot to me, and I greatly appreciate your offering it. MANdARAX • XAЯAbИAM 09:57, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
Fatima UFO Hypothesis
A request for comment about the Fatima UFO Hypothesis has been made. Since you have edited this article you a welcome to comment at Talk:The Fatima UFO Hypothesis. Thank you Zacherystaylor (talk) 18:59, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
- My only edit to the page was the most minor typo fix possible: changing september to September. I have no interest in the matter. MANdARAX • XAЯAbИAM 18:13, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
Still there?
You dropped off the face of the Wikipedia rather suddenly. Everything OK? I sure hope you'll be back eventually!
Cheers, Amalthea 10:28, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
- Hi Amalthea. Thank you so much for your concern and your kind words of encouragement. "Everything OK?" No, I'm afraid it wasn't. See User talk:Rspeer#How you drove a longtime editor away from Wikipedia for details. But I'm fine now. Thanks again for your supportive note, which made the decision to return much easier for me. MANdARAX • XAЯAbИAM 18:07, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
- Ah, I see. I have only glanced over it (TLDR indeed), but all of this seems mostly based on an unfortunate misunderstanding or misinterpretation. I'm glad to see that it all appears to be resolved now and you're popping up on my watchlist again. :)
Cheers, Amalthea 13:01, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
- Ah, I see. I have only glanced over it (TLDR indeed), but all of this seems mostly based on an unfortunate misunderstanding or misinterpretation. I'm glad to see that it all appears to be resolved now and you're popping up on my watchlist again. :)
Setting the record straight
I've posted a fuller response on my talk page, but the basic fact is that I misjudged you. Your username reports helped to protect the Wiki from external link spammers, by leading to quick, appropriate spamblocks or softerblocks being placed on their accounts.
So I'd like to re-award you the barnstar that I so inappropriately Kanye'd a while ago.
|
|
The Defender of the Wiki Barnstar | |
| This is being offered in appreciation of your excellent work within the WP:UAA sector of Wikipedia. Thank you very much for your wonderful input. Pastor Theo (talk) 09:53, 7 August 2009 (UTC) |
rspεεr (talk) 21:48, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
- Thank you! I very much appreciate your comments here and on your talk page. I've also posted a fuller response on your talk page, the gist of which is that I accept your apology. MANdARAX • XAЯAbИAM 00:43, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
50,000 milestone
This is long overdue, and in appreciation:
|
The Tireless Contributor Barnstar | |
| Well deserved and congratulations Mandarax on 50K and for all of your excellent work on visual arts and related. Modernist (talk) 23:09, 11 November 2009 (UTC) |
- Thank you very much! That means a lot, especially coming from someone I respect so much. MANdARAX • XAЯAbИAM 00:16, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
Yes, well deserved! Congratulations. Ty 23:12, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
- Thank you! And, I hate to be repetitive, but it means a lot coming from you, another person whom I respect very much. MANdARAX • XAЯAbИAM 23:20, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
Doubled warnings
Sorry, I saw your revert but no warning a minute or so after the revert and sent it myself. Didn't mean to step on your toes. We must have warned in pretty close proximity. --ShadowRanger (talk|stalk) 17:31, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
- No problem at all. I very often issue warnings for reverts done by others when I see that they have failed to do so themselves. In this instance, I was delayed because I briefly lost my internet connection. Thanks. MANdARAX • XAЯAbИAM 17:42, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
{{DEFAULTSORT}} & |listas= -- Thank You!
I was almost certain that I was the only one who was adding values to |listas= on the pages in Category:Biography articles without listas parameter. I was pleasantly surprised to learn accidently, through the DEFAULTSORT conflict that you resolved, that at least other is working on the pages. Thank you!
Unfortunately, I am working completely manually, no bot and no AWB, so I can not get nearly as many done in a day as you can, and more articles are added to the category each day than we are taking out. I have cleaned out Q, V and Z and am keeping them clean. I am about to start on Y and then will move to W.
Although this is very presumptious of me, I hope you will consider spending some more time on the pages in Category:Biography articles without listas parameter. The swamp is getting more crowded instead of less crowded despite our efforts.
- I've been fixing and adding DEFAULTSORT and listas values for a long time. It's slow going even with AWB because I don't want to make mistakes. What I find frustrating is coming across an existing DEFAULTSORT/listas which looks wrong, and then I've gotta wonder whether it was added in error, or if it's actually a correct exception to a rule. I'll try to work on various sort keys more, but I can't guarantee that I'll be stepping up my efforts very much. (It's too bad that ListasBot hasn't worked on it in two months.) Anyways, good luck with your continuing efforts. MANdARAX • XAЯAbИAM 21:35, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
- Update. Per your request, I've grabbed a chunk of Category:Biography articles without listas parameter and started working on it. MANdARAX • XAЯAbИAM 22:08, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
I wonder about some values also. The ones that bother me the most are the ones that are following a certain naming convention very strictly but the person does not fall in the category for that convention. (Non-Arabs with names that could be based on Arabic are the primary example.)
The number of mistakes that have been made by bots in the past in developing sort values make me very pleased at you worry about making mistakes. If you expand you efforts slightly, the various guidelines and conventions may become second nature.
I think the main reason ListasBot has stopped working on the problem is the very low frequency of edits it was able to make. It was taking the value in ((tl|DEFAULTSORT}} or in {{lifetime}} and using that to complete the |listas=. Many times, as you have found, the main pages does not have a sort value either.
Thank you. You made a significant dent.
500,000
Remember that Wikipedia's doctrine is quality, not quantity; it very hard to provide (sufficient) oversight on such high-levels of automated edits. —Sladen (talk) 12:50, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
- You're referring to my note congratulating Rich Farmbrough (talk · contribs) on reaching 500,000 edits. I generally don't leave such messages, but this just seemed like such a huge milestone. And, as I mentioned in that note, I'm always seeing Rich on my Watchlist, so I'm familiar with his contributions and I know that they are valuable, as he performs tedious but useful tasks using AWB. Note that I also use AWB, and I do carefully inspect every edit before I save it. MANdARAX • XAЯAbИAM 13:11, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
Your recognition
Thanks much for the Mandarax barnstar. I really do appreciate these little notices. Thanks, too, for your continuing good works on WP. I've done considerable vandalism fighting on another wiki and I know that, though satisfying, it is intense work. LilHelpa (talk) 12:23, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
- You're welcome. You're very worthy of receiving it. I was amazed at how much typo fixing you were able to do manually, before starting to use AWB. And thank you for your kind words. BTW, vandalism fighting is a much smaller percentage of my work than it used to be. I also work on fixing whatever small amount of typos you haven't gotten around to taking care of yet, as well as other stuff such as adding and fixing sort keys. MANdARAX • XAЯAbИAM 15:02, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
Incorrect revisions
This is all in relation to the University of Georgia article. You reverted too far back and undid some changes, including the population and some corrections to the school enrollment and athletics and more. The latest version I edited has all the corrections. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.213.163.2 (talk) 20:37, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
- Each time, I reverted one and only one edit. Your edit which I reverted included vandalism which removed the letter "t": "University" to "Universiy" (twice), "Athens" to "Ahens", and "top" to "op". When you vandalize, it's not easy to take you seriously if you happened to include some valid information too. Please include sources for any information which you claim to be true, and stop including vandalism. MANdARAX • XAЯAbИAM 20:53, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
default sort
Should I routinely add these to biographies when I make them?[2] Are there tricks to them? Thanks for taking time to look over the stub I wrote and make corrections. --IP69.226.103.13 (talk) 09:34, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
- I believe that all biographies should have a DEFAULTSORT. In general, it's pretty straightforward, although there are many exceptions. Mostly it's just Lastname, Firstname. For full details see WP:NAMESORT. If you're not sure what it should be, you can omit it and someone else will probably come along and fill it in for you. Thanks for your contributions. MANdARAX • XAЯAbИAM 10:04, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
- Could you also put the same information in the
|listas=in WP Biography banner on the talk page? Thanks. JimCubb (talk) 03:24, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
- Could you also put the same information in the
- In this case, IP69.226.103.13 had already filled in the listas on Talk:Jules Cardot. (And, as for me, I always try to do both the DEFAULTSORT and the listas, and have done so for many, many thousands of pages.) MANdARAX • XAЯAbИAM 08:42, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
Marina 106..
you comments are required here on account of Marina 106.
Nabil rais2008 (talk) 11:56, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
- I've never edited Marina 106 and I have no interest in the subject. I also have no interest in researching it enough to express an informed opinion. But good luck with your AfD. MANdARAX • XAЯAbИAM 18:35, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
DEFAULTSORT for McDonald
Thanks for the pointer to WP:MCSTJR when you made the fix at [4].—C45207 | Talk 06:27, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
- No problem. MANdARAX • XAЯAbИAM 07:06, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
recent diff on Pink Floyd
...I thought I'd mention, I don't think the user had any ill intent - although badly worded, he's essentially correct in that the songs are quite racist. Parrot of Doom 23:07, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
- It was very badly and offensively worded and poorly formatted. It mentions "how pink feels" as though Pink were a person. And, without citing any sources, it's merely a personal opinion which has no place in an encyclopedia. I personally love early Pink Floyd and it's some of my favorite music. But I don't care for the later stuff, starting with The Wall, so I'm not very familiar with the songs in question. In any case, I have changed my warning on the user's talk page to one about adding unsourced material. Thanks for your note. MANdARAX • XAЯAbИAM 23:40, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
User:68.111.212.130
Please see [5]. All his edits, contrary to the deceptive summaries, add "snake monster". Thanks. --Buster7 (talk) 12:50, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
- I find deceptive edit summaries to be particularly annoying and disruptive. I see that the user has already been blocked for a month. Please note, however, that I'm not an admin. You may report such problem users to WP:AIV. Thanks. MANdARAX • XAЯAbИAM 17:43, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
- If you are not an admin, then what's with the Popup feature used for reversion? Is it an admin's tool? 7107Lecker Tischgespräch, außerdem... 13:28, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
- See below. MANdARAX • XAЯAbИAM 19:01, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
Popups
What's with these? I've seen those, while you were cleaning up User talk:Sandbox for user warnings, but what are they? 7107Lecker Tischgespräch, außerdem... 13:25, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
- It's a tool which provides previews as well as functions such as reversion. It's available to any registered user. Please see WP:POPUPS for information and installation instructions. MANdARAX • XAЯAbИAM 19:01, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for your efforts
I noticed you've tweaked a few of the articles about villages in the Ukraine I created or brought out of stub status. It's good to know someone like you is watching out for things. Thanks for the help. --Saukkomies talk 04:36, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
- You're welcome. I just made some minor changes. Thank you for your work on the articles. And thanks for the note. MANdARAX • XAЯAbИAM 05:14, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
- I plan on eventually making similar articles for all of the communities that have Cucuteni-Trypillian archaeological sites, in Ukraine, Moldova and Romania. This is something that I feel really needs to be done. However, it'll take a while.... --Saukkomies talk 16:23, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
Untimely 0
Please would you eliminate this unencyclopedic POV word. Kittybrewster ☎ 14:29, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
- Okay. I've got a pre-parsed list of almost 1,250 "untimely" articles that I've begun work on and I'll eventually work my way through. MANdARAX • XAЯAbИAM 05:46, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
- Please would you do himslef and herslef and themsleves as well? Kittybrewster ☎ 09:13, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
- Sure. (That seems completely uncontroversial!) I'm currently working on a short list of articles, adding DEFAULTSORT and listas, but when I've completed that, I'll get to your request. MANdARAX • XAЯAbИAM 09:41, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
- There were just a few left. In response to your request at WT:AWB/T, Rjwilmsi (talk · contribs) took care of six of the "himslef" ones, which was most of them. I fixed two more, which AWB had skipped because each was part of a ref. I didn't find any "herslef" errors, and I only found two of "themsleves" in need of fixing after Rjwilmsi took care of about thirty. MANdARAX • XAЯAbИAM 13:08, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
Please don't change the title of a book
Here. [6] I've been meaning to hide more titles on those year-in-poetry pages from bots. Would that have helped? -- JohnWBarber (talk) 00:45, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
- Thank you for catching my error. I try to be very careful about such things, but in this case I missed it because it was such a long title, and the words weren't capitalized. I'm not a bot; it was just human error. I'll attempt to be even more vigilant to prevent this from happening again. Thanks for notifying me. MANdARAX • XAЯAbИAM 00:59, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
Solid Snake 1884
Hi,
was wondering if you could help.
I have been responsible for editing the page for the composer, Bob Dickinson.
Since December 16th or thereabouts, Solid Snake 1884 and also Organdonor have been vandalising this page.
Thankfully, it has now been reverted to its original non-vandalised format, pre-Solid Snake and Organ Donor.
Is it possible to block 'Solid Snake 1884' or to obtain his/her IP address with a view to legal action being taken against 'Solid Snake 1884', if his/her true identity is discovered?
Many thanks,
Zensurfer (talk) 21:17, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
- I'm not an admin, so I can't do any blocking. SolidSnake1884 (talk · contribs) did vandalize after I issued a final warning, so you could make a report to WP:Administrator intervention against vandalism. However, the user hasn't edited in five days, and I'm guessing that they've abandoned the account. Thanks for your work on Wikipedia. MANdARAX • XAЯAbИAM 21:48, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
Untimely
I noticed your mass edits regarding the word "untimely". They are materially changing the meaning of many of these articles in a way that loses information and does not improve the articles. It is not editorializing to say that someone died young. Do you have the ability to mass revert your changes, or will they have to be reverted manually? Gigs (talk) 15:12, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
- Gigs, what do you mean by died young? Kittybrewster ☎ 16:35, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
- Prematurely, before the natural time. I agree the term is imprecise, but removing it wholesale is no solution. I believe it is a net negative to these articles. Gigs (talk) 17:06, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
- I hear that. There has recently been a discussion about this term at Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Language#Untimely_death. Which concluded that it is imprecise, POV and unencyclopedic. In short, to be "shot on sight". Thank you for discussing it. Kittybrewster ☎ 17:16, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
- I see nothing there that justifies or discusses this semi-automated mass removal. Only one editor said it should be "shot on sight", and I doubt he had robotic mass-removal in mind either. Gigs (talk) 17:38, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
- Mandarax is neither semi-automated nor robotic. Some uses of the word should remain but most should not. Kittybrewster ☎ 17:41, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
- I was referring to the use of WP:AWB which is indeed self-described as semi-automated and specifically not to be used for potentially controversial changes, or changes that affect the meaning of text. Gigs (talk) 17:46, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
- Can you provide examples of articles where removal of the word does not benefit the article? Kittybrewster ☎ 17:50, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
- Wikipedia:Words_to_avoid#Death_and_dying Kittybrewster ☎ 17:54, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
- Nearly all of them. It's an overreaction to a slightly non-neutral connotation. As a style issue, I have no problem with recommending that the word be avoided or used with care. Removing meaning from articles in order to address a slight problem of connotation is overkill. The word does communicate that the person died prematurely. It's not the best word to use or the best way to go about it, but its wholesale removal in unwarranted. If you want an example, [7]. From the original, I can ascertain that Mario Pagano somehow died prematurely. That isn't communicated in the revised version. It might be better to mention something about his execution, but that's the sort of editorial subtelty that isn't going to happen with semi-automated bulk removal, which can only serve to destroy the conveyed meaning. Gigs (talk) 18:10, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
- He was executed when he was 51, but the fact or manner of his death seems irrelevant to the article. Kittybrewster ☎ 18:18, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
- That's a discussion we can have... because we aren't doing 6 of these per minute. I looked at some past AWB tasks, such as passed away -> died, and that kind of thing is OK with me... it doesn't change the meaning or remove information. This does. Gigs (talk) 18:32, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
- I think this is fully covered by WP:EUPHEMISM. And that your example supports this. There are about 1,250 to be removed and one cannot discuss that number on a one-by-one basis. Kittybrewster ☎ 18:42, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
- That's a discussion we can have... because we aren't doing 6 of these per minute. I looked at some past AWB tasks, such as passed away -> died, and that kind of thing is OK with me... it doesn't change the meaning or remove information. This does. Gigs (talk) 18:32, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
- He was executed when he was 51, but the fact or manner of his death seems irrelevant to the article. Kittybrewster ☎ 18:18, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
- Nearly all of them. It's an overreaction to a slightly non-neutral connotation. As a style issue, I have no problem with recommending that the word be avoided or used with care. Removing meaning from articles in order to address a slight problem of connotation is overkill. The word does communicate that the person died prematurely. It's not the best word to use or the best way to go about it, but its wholesale removal in unwarranted. If you want an example, [7]. From the original, I can ascertain that Mario Pagano somehow died prematurely. That isn't communicated in the revised version. It might be better to mention something about his execution, but that's the sort of editorial subtelty that isn't going to happen with semi-automated bulk removal, which can only serve to destroy the conveyed meaning. Gigs (talk) 18:10, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
- I was referring to the use of WP:AWB which is indeed self-described as semi-automated and specifically not to be used for potentially controversial changes, or changes that affect the meaning of text. Gigs (talk) 17:46, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
- Mandarax is neither semi-automated nor robotic. Some uses of the word should remain but most should not. Kittybrewster ☎ 17:41, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
- I see nothing there that justifies or discusses this semi-automated mass removal. Only one editor said it should be "shot on sight", and I doubt he had robotic mass-removal in mind either. Gigs (talk) 17:38, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
- I hear that. There has recently been a discussion about this term at Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Language#Untimely_death. Which concluded that it is imprecise, POV and unencyclopedic. In short, to be "shot on sight". Thank you for discussing it. Kittybrewster ☎ 17:16, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
- Prematurely, before the natural time. I agree the term is imprecise, but removing it wholesale is no solution. I believe it is a net negative to these articles. Gigs (talk) 17:06, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
(unindent) We are just going in circles. I have widened the discussion. Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#Using_AWB_to_remove_.22words_to_avoid.22 If consensus says it's OK, then I will abide by that. Gigs (talk) 19:22, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
- Wow. Well, I guess that's what happens when I'm away from Wikipedia for a few hours.
- First, I'd like to point out that I'm not changing every instance ("robotic mass-removal" as you called it). I inspect every one before saving, and I've skipped lots of them, whenever I felt that there was the slightest chance that the change would not be appropriate. In the vast majority of instances, however, "untimely" adds absolutely nothing positive. It's a very imprecise and emotional word which generally has no place in an encyclopedia. The circumstances which cause a death to be "untimely" should be clearly explained in the article, using relevant facts from reliable sources. If they are, then the "untimely" is superfluous, and if they're not, then the "untimely" should not be there.
- Having said that, I'll add that my only aim is to improve Wikipedia, and I don't have any particular agenda regarding this issue. I began the task at the request of another user, and I only took it on because it seemed to be a perfectly reasonable and constructive one. I never would have begun if I had even the smallest inkling that this would be controversial; the guideline seemed to be clearly spelled out at WP:EUPHEMISM. I am suspending my work on this until the issue is resolved. If the consensus is that the change should not be made and that my relevant edits should be reverted, I will make every effort to undo them. However, in the discussion at WP:Reference desk/Language#Untimely death, "untimely" appears be overwhelmingly viewed as a word which should not be included in articles. MANdARAX • XAЯAbИAM 02:04, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
- I am sorry that you have been beaten up for your excellent work which undoubtedly had concensus. I am baffled. Meanwhile you are stepping well back. I understand but greatly regret. What about the "untimely" deaths of fictional characters? How do I search for and obtain your entire list of untimelys? I intend to do the job manually if necessary. If I search within wiki I get 51 showing up but it says there are over 2,000. Then I do the passing aways which also get added every day. Every day I delete a few and wait for the search engine to catch up with me. Very confusing. Kittybrewster ☎ 13:20, 31 December 2009 (UTC)
- Thanks for your note. Yes, it is quite baffling. It looks like there are just a bunch of Neo-Luddites who are opposed to the use of tools such as AWB for anything other than the most menial, mindless tasks. I just couldn't get them to understand that it's not a machine making the edits, but that AWB merely presents a potential edit to me in an easy, accurate way, and I use my own judgement on whether to save it, edit it further, or leave it unchanged. I apologize for abandoning you, but I'm afraid if I continued, people would just start reverting me. There seemed to be little objection to the edits themselves, so hopefully you won't encounter any resistance when doing them manually. I finished A-G, and had 787 left to go through. I noticed you had an empty sandbox, so I took the liberty of putting the list in User:Kittybrewster/Sandbox9. Thanks for your wonderful efforts and your continuing commitment to improve Wikipedia. MANdARAX • XAЯAbИAM 20:27, 31 December 2009 (UTC)
- I am sorry that you have been beaten up for your excellent work which undoubtedly had concensus. I am baffled. Meanwhile you are stepping well back. I understand but greatly regret. What about the "untimely" deaths of fictional characters? How do I search for and obtain your entire list of untimelys? I intend to do the job manually if necessary. If I search within wiki I get 51 showing up but it says there are over 2,000. Then I do the passing aways which also get added every day. Every day I delete a few and wait for the search engine to catch up with me. Very confusing. Kittybrewster ☎ 13:20, 31 December 2009 (UTC)
Perhaps more timely
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