User talk:Keresaspa/Archive 8
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I see you have been as busy as me
I notice you have created another good article on Springfield Road. Nice work. I have been bustìy as well on my latest: 1972 and 1973 Dublin bombings. Here's a bizarre pair as ever set foot in Ireland, I had forgotten about them: Keith and Kenneth Littlejohn! My God after writing this article, I truly realise exactly how FILTHY the war in Ireland (both North and South) really was. Who was doing what? And who was helping whom?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:12, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
- Nice work. I made a couple of minor edits but it seems pretty complete in factual terms. Kenneth Littlejohn was a bit of a headcase I reckon. Keresaspa (talk) 20:08, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
- Thank you. It was hard at times going through all the facts and evidence presented in the Barron Report. Yes, weren't the Littlejohns weird and what about "Major Glover"?!!! The Barron Inquiry concluded that the first bomb at the cinema was the work of republivìcans whereas the three carbombings were carried out by the UVF. In late 1972, the UDA were too caught up in their own internal disputes and power struggles to have undertaken a southern bombing campaign.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:54, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
- I think proper bomb-making was a little beyond the UDA at that point. Indeed I'm not sure they ever mastered it to the level of the Provies or even the Uve. I'll be in Dublin tomorrow so I'll see if I can get an image of the memorial for the article. Keresaspa (talk) 18:17, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
- That would be fantastic! Would you mind also taking a photo of Sackville Place itself where the two bombings occured? I'd really appreciate it. The whole affair with Littlejohns, Lady Onslow, John Wyman is like a spy novel!!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:29, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
- No problemo. I'm there for a couple of days so I'm bound to be round that way at some point. And agreed about all that - John Le Carre stuff. Keresaspa (talk) 18:43, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks a million! It's interesting how the MOD in the Barron Report admitted that regarding the meeting with Littlejohn they "put him in touch with the appropriate authorities" after having hear his info on the IRA!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 19:10, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
- There's a euphemism if I ever heard one! Shadowy to say the least. Keresaspa (talk) 19:54, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
- IMO, the Littlejohns were British agents but the bank heist was not part of their instructions. I hope you have a great time in Dublin's Fair City!!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 10:17, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- Great stuff - ended up staying longer than intended. Got those pictures, will upload soon. Keresaspa (talk) 20:21, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
- IMO, the Littlejohns were British agents but the bank heist was not part of their instructions. I hope you have a great time in Dublin's Fair City!!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 10:17, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- There's a euphemism if I ever heard one! Shadowy to say the least. Keresaspa (talk) 19:54, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks a million! It's interesting how the MOD in the Barron Report admitted that regarding the meeting with Littlejohn they "put him in touch with the appropriate authorities" after having hear his info on the IRA!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 19:10, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
- No problemo. I'm there for a couple of days so I'm bound to be round that way at some point. And agreed about all that - John Le Carre stuff. Keresaspa (talk) 18:43, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
- That would be fantastic! Would you mind also taking a photo of Sackville Place itself where the two bombings occured? I'd really appreciate it. The whole affair with Littlejohns, Lady Onslow, John Wyman is like a spy novel!!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:29, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
- I think proper bomb-making was a little beyond the UDA at that point. Indeed I'm not sure they ever mastered it to the level of the Provies or even the Uve. I'll be in Dublin tomorrow so I'll see if I can get an image of the memorial for the article. Keresaspa (talk) 18:17, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
- Thank you. It was hard at times going through all the facts and evidence presented in the Barron Report. Yes, weren't the Littlejohns weird and what about "Major Glover"?!!! The Barron Inquiry concluded that the first bomb at the cinema was the work of republivìcans whereas the three carbombings were carried out by the UVF. In late 1972, the UDA were too caught up in their own internal disputes and power struggles to have undertaken a southern bombing campaign.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:54, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
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RE Liam Neeson
Hi. I notice on your very impressive userpage that you attended the same school as Liam Neeson. Would that have been All Saints Primary or St Patrick's College? I know you missed him by a quarter century, but I was just curious, especially since Neeson's wikipedia article doesn't mention what school he attended after primary school and before university. You probably would know, I guess.
- P.S. What do you think about Neeson playing Ian Paisley in some upcoming film? (I'm not sure when it's due out.) To be honest I thought Neeson (OBE!!) was miscast as Michael Collins as Neeson's looks and height make him almost a doppelganger for Collins' nemesis, de Valera. Compare photos if you want, I think you'll agree. Actor Michael Cumpsty (I don't know if you are familiar with him nor what he has been up to, as I haven't heard much about him lately) looks a LOT more like Collins in my opinion. Therefore I am not sure about Neeson playing Paisley either. (Donald Sutherland would be a better choice, although only for the later years). Yours, Quis separabit? 21:30, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- Sorry for butting in here. I think Sutherland (whilst an excellent actor) is rather stoic and detached; he lacks the choleric blood and thunder personality of Ian Paisley. Neeson is such a versatile actor, I think he could play any role.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:49, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
- St Patrick's College - it had moved to Dundonald by the time I went there but the head honcho never missed an opportunity to remind us all that Liam Neeson had been there before! Donald Sutherland would be a good physical likeness for Ian Paisley but I would worry about the accent as even great actors have a rough time nailing Northern Irish voices. Admittedly Liam Neeson isn't physically very much like Ian Paisley, apart from the height, but I reckon he could get the accent and mannerisms down well. Keresaspa (talk) 20:14, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
- Just as long as they don't use Daniel Day Lewis for the role! His Northern Irish accent was pathetic as were those extras at the scene where Conlon narrowly escapes a knee-capping. "Shoot the bastards, they're always robbing our hoses". Obviously it should have been hises. Oh well, it was filmed in Dublin so they used Dub extras-LOL.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 08:23, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
- pretty bad, although he still had a distance to go to catch up to Julia Roberts' accent in Michael Collins. She sounded like a Glaswegian who had been living in Cardiff for a years! Keresaspa (talk) 14:57, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
- However, physically Roberts did bear an uncanny resemblance to Kitty. The thing that annoyed me with Roberts is that due to she and Neeson having had a relationship in the past, there lacked the chemistry that should exist on screen between supposed lovers. The pair were obviously uncomfortable with one another.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 16:17, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
- She did look like her admittedly but I just found the accent too distracting. I didn't know her and Neeson had knocked about together though - that does explain the slight diffidence in their performances. Keresaspa (talk) 19:28, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
- They had an affair back in the 80s when he arrived in Hollywood. She was a newcomer as well. Oh, did I ever tell you I met Liam Neeson's cousin, Paul at an Irish pub in London. We hit it off quite well, he asked me out but alas, I was catching a flight later that night, so.....(sigh).He looked eactly like Liam, height and all.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 10:20, 30 January 2012 (UTC)--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 10:20, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
- There's a woman lives facing me claims she knew Liam Neeson growing up. Could be true as she is originally from Ballymena but she is a lush too so I'm not convinced. The most famous person I've ever met with Naoko Yamano. Exactly. Keresaspa (talk) 20:31, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
- They had an affair back in the 80s when he arrived in Hollywood. She was a newcomer as well. Oh, did I ever tell you I met Liam Neeson's cousin, Paul at an Irish pub in London. We hit it off quite well, he asked me out but alas, I was catching a flight later that night, so.....(sigh).He looked eactly like Liam, height and all.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 10:20, 30 January 2012 (UTC)--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 10:20, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
- She did look like her admittedly but I just found the accent too distracting. I didn't know her and Neeson had knocked about together though - that does explain the slight diffidence in their performances. Keresaspa (talk) 19:28, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
- However, physically Roberts did bear an uncanny resemblance to Kitty. The thing that annoyed me with Roberts is that due to she and Neeson having had a relationship in the past, there lacked the chemistry that should exist on screen between supposed lovers. The pair were obviously uncomfortable with one another.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 16:17, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
- pretty bad, although he still had a distance to go to catch up to Julia Roberts' accent in Michael Collins. She sounded like a Glaswegian who had been living in Cardiff for a years! Keresaspa (talk) 14:57, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
- Just as long as they don't use Daniel Day Lewis for the role! His Northern Irish accent was pathetic as were those extras at the scene where Conlon narrowly escapes a knee-capping. "Shoot the bastards, they're always robbing our hoses". Obviously it should have been hises. Oh well, it was filmed in Dublin so they used Dub extras-LOL.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 08:23, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
- St Patrick's College - it had moved to Dundonald by the time I went there but the head honcho never missed an opportunity to remind us all that Liam Neeson had been there before! Donald Sutherland would be a good physical likeness for Ian Paisley but I would worry about the accent as even great actors have a rough time nailing Northern Irish voices. Admittedly Liam Neeson isn't physically very much like Ian Paisley, apart from the height, but I reckon he could get the accent and mannerisms down well. Keresaspa (talk) 20:14, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
- Sorry for butting in here. I think Sutherland (whilst an excellent actor) is rather stoic and detached; he lacks the choleric blood and thunder personality of Ian Paisley. Neeson is such a versatile actor, I think he could play any role.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:49, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
- P.S. What do you think about Neeson playing Ian Paisley in some upcoming film? (I'm not sure when it's due out.) To be honest I thought Neeson (OBE!!) was miscast as Michael Collins as Neeson's looks and height make him almost a doppelganger for Collins' nemesis, de Valera. Compare photos if you want, I think you'll agree. Actor Michael Cumpsty (I don't know if you are familiar with him nor what he has been up to, as I haven't heard much about him lately) looks a LOT more like Collins in my opinion. Therefore I am not sure about Neeson playing Paisley either. (Donald Sutherland would be a better choice, although only for the later years). Yours, Quis separabit? 21:30, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
Images look great!
Thanks for taking those pics of Sackville Place. They really improve the article. I'm glad you had a good time in Dublin (impossible not to enjoy that wonderful city). I hope the weather was OK and not typically drizzly and damp. I used to work close to Sackville Place-on Talbot Street at its junction with Marlborough Street. I created a new article the other day: 1971 Balmoral Furniture Company bombing. The showroom stood at the corner of Shankill and Carlow Street. The building used to be "Wee Joe's Picture House". It was demolished after the bombing.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 08:19, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
- There was a bit of extra stuff on the plaque but I waited ages and still couldn't get the local taxi drivers to move so I just made do with the plaque itself as that was the main part. Saw your Balmoral article last night. Nice work. I might have some stuff to add so I'll check later. If it was the corner of Carlow Street I guess that must be the Shankill leisure centre now as the Shankill Mission is still standing on the other side. For some reason I always imagined it to have been further up. Pretty close to Malvern Street, to where George Seawright and Frankie Curry bought the farm and to "Beirut" so a bloody area and no mistake. Keresaspa (talk) 15:03, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
- The images look fine. What was the IRA Belfast Brigade playing at? Under the command of MacStiofain and Twomey, they managed to create nothing but carnage, carnage, carnage with no results but more carnage due to retaliation, which they should have anticipated and yet cared not a whit. Oh what do you think of Sean O'Callaghan's book The Informer?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 16:13, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
- It was a grim time when a bunch of bigots were in charge and all they cared about was attacking the other side. The series of pointless tit for tat pub attacks in the early 70s was probably the most depressing interlude of the whole Troubles. O'Callaghan's book is a very interesting read. It belongs in the fiction section of the library alongside Walter Mitty and Billy Liar but very interesting nonetheless. Made those additions to the Balmoral article. Just wondering though, you had Hugh Bruce as a 70 year old and I changed it to 50 as that is what McDonald and Cusack state but your source might be right as I remember those old shop doormen you used to get and some of them were ancient. I'm not convinced one way or the other but two sources agreeing would definitely sway me. Keresaspa (talk) 16:21, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
- Let me see what CAIN has to say.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 16:32, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
- They say 70. Let me do a Google.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 16:33, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
- Peter Taylor also says 70. IMO, we should change it back to 70 but add as a footnote that McDonald and Cusack give his age as 50. What do you think?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 16:38, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
- To be honest if two sources say 70 that's good enough for me. 50 could just be a typo and if the majority say 70 that's the one to go for and like I say I vaguely remember the old shop doormen and 50 seems a bit young as it was usually pensioners topping up their meagre money. Keresaspa (talk) 19:27, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
- My dad worked six days a week until he was 75. CAIN and Taylor are pretty reliable. I agree that 50 was probably just a typo in Cusack & McDonald's book. Yes, I recall seeing uniformed shop doormen at department stores in Los Angeles when I was young. You don't see them anymore anywhere.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 10:19, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
- There are one or two banks left that still have the old chaps sitting on the door as far as I remember but there used to be a lot more of them in lots of places. Same with patrol men - there are a lot fewer of them now and they seem to be of any age. Keresaspa (talk) 20:30, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
- My dad worked six days a week until he was 75. CAIN and Taylor are pretty reliable. I agree that 50 was probably just a typo in Cusack & McDonald's book. Yes, I recall seeing uniformed shop doormen at department stores in Los Angeles when I was young. You don't see them anymore anywhere.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 10:19, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
- To be honest if two sources say 70 that's good enough for me. 50 could just be a typo and if the majority say 70 that's the one to go for and like I say I vaguely remember the old shop doormen and 50 seems a bit young as it was usually pensioners topping up their meagre money. Keresaspa (talk) 19:27, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
- Peter Taylor also says 70. IMO, we should change it back to 70 but add as a footnote that McDonald and Cusack give his age as 50. What do you think?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 16:38, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
- They say 70. Let me do a Google.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 16:33, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
- Let me see what CAIN has to say.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 16:32, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
- It was a grim time when a bunch of bigots were in charge and all they cared about was attacking the other side. The series of pointless tit for tat pub attacks in the early 70s was probably the most depressing interlude of the whole Troubles. O'Callaghan's book is a very interesting read. It belongs in the fiction section of the library alongside Walter Mitty and Billy Liar but very interesting nonetheless. Made those additions to the Balmoral article. Just wondering though, you had Hugh Bruce as a 70 year old and I changed it to 50 as that is what McDonald and Cusack state but your source might be right as I remember those old shop doormen you used to get and some of them were ancient. I'm not convinced one way or the other but two sources agreeing would definitely sway me. Keresaspa (talk) 16:21, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
- The images look fine. What was the IRA Belfast Brigade playing at? Under the command of MacStiofain and Twomey, they managed to create nothing but carnage, carnage, carnage with no results but more carnage due to retaliation, which they should have anticipated and yet cared not a whit. Oh what do you think of Sean O'Callaghan's book The Informer?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 16:13, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
Bunch of Grapes
Nice photo you took of the "Bunch of Grapes" pub. Has it closed down for good or was it just taken at the wrong time of day? Had it been open who knows who might have emerged the instant you snapped the pic! LOL. Yesterday I finished the new article on John Hanna (prison officer). Rosena Brown merits her own article but I cannot find any info regarding her acting career.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 06:45, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
- Bingo! I found some stuff - Rosena Brown is now under construction!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 10:15, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
- Good work. Not overly familiar with either of them personally but I'll see if I can add anything. The Bunch of Grapes is closed down but is up for sale as a going concern. I'm not sure when it closed but it wasn't too long ago and it was definitely open since Gray's death. It was called something else for a while after he died. I can't remember exactly what but it was something related to Rangers. I would have got the Avenue One as well but it is long gone and to be honest I'm not sure exactly where it was as Templemore Avenue has changed, and is still changing, an awful lot in the last few years. Keresaspa (talk) 20:05, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks. I added some stuff to Brown's article today, but I'm still missing a lot of basic biographical information. God, with 7 kids how did she find the time to gather information for the IRA?!!!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:42, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
- Sorry about not adding anything to either but I didn't get back on here yesterday with one thing and another. I'll have a scout around tonight although I've found on the republican side basic biographical info is often harder to find. I still have no idea what Proinsias MacAirt died of for instance! Seven children? I have none and that's too many for me! Even the merest thought of ever having children makes me break out in a cold sweat. I can't even look after myself let alone anybody else! Keresaspa (talk) 19:59, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
- I like your additions. Thank you. The statement from the UDA was interesting. DO you think Hanna set up John McMichael as Andy Tyrie suggested? Jackie McDonald didn't believe Craig had a hand in it. Have you seen photos of Brown when she was younger? Georgeous! Really beautiful, no wonder she was used as a "honey trap"!!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 08:50, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- I looked for stuff about Hanna too but I drew a blank on that score. McDonald and Cusack don't even name him, they just say Brown was with a prison officer. As to Tyrie's claim I'm not convinced personally. The evidence for Craig being behind it seems pretty strong and it fits his weasel personality. Do I detect the Shankill's Andy Tyrie trying to deflect potentially awkward questions about how a double agent like Craig was able to operate so brazenly on the same Shankill Road? I've only seen the recent photo of Brown. I thought I might have recognised her with her being an actress but she doesn't ring a bell. Keresaspa (talk) 19:31, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- It's possible Hanna did provide Brown with info on McMichael but in the end it was Craig who actually let the IRA know when and where to find him the night he was killed. I beleive McMichael had just returned home from a two-week absence the night he was blown up, so somebody (most likely Craig, as you say) alerted the IRA. Jackie McDonald thinks Tommy Lyttle was the culprit.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:34, 4 February 2012 (UTC)
- Tommy Lyttle might well have been the one rather than Craig but again the Shankill's Andy Tyrie would face questions about how it happened. I'm not suggesting for a second Tyrie had a hand in McMichael's death (I doubt he did as by all accounts they were very close) just that he failed to prevent it like a proper leader should have. Mind you by that point he was lsoing his grip on the UDA anyway. Keresaspa (talk) 20:06, 4 February 2012 (UTC)
- Rememebr four months after McMichael's death, Tyrie found a bomb under his car. He had no doubt it was placed there by other UDA members. Looking at his face in the YouTube video of McMichael's funeral, Tyrie was devastated by his murder. He was highly-regarded and what's more very attractive to women. That could be why Rosena Brown went into the "Admiral Benbow" to warn him. Personally I find Jackie McDonald very attractive.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 13:57, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
- My ma said McMichael was a looker too. J Mac? He has a real Belfast look about him I reckon. Keresaspa (talk) 18:21, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
- Nobody could ever take Jackie for being anything but a Belfast man. I'd wager his family have been in Belfast for generations. Oh, I've been expanding the La Mon restaurant bombing article. What do you think?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:26, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
- Great stuff, good and complete. Not sure if I would have anything to add there but I'll have a look. Keresaspa (talk) 19:00, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks. Someone has nominated the image I uploaded for deletion saying that a picture of a burning building apparantly caused by a bomb doesn't add anything to the article!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 19:02, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
- The technocrats strike again. That's the main reason I've always been wary about uploading anything I didn't take as I always suspected there would be a member of the gerbil brigade looking any excuse to remove them. Still, I suppose that a picture of a bombing in the article about the very same bombing is a tenuous link. Well, if you ignore all concepts of common sense it is. Keresaspa (talk) 19:12, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
- It's one of the reasons why I boycotted Wikipedia on Sunday. Qhen I spend hours on a daily basis of my precious time attempting to build an encyclopedia by creating and expanding articles, spend more precious time looking for images which enhance the articles' quality only to be accused of uploading an image of a burning building apparantly caused by a bomb(don't think it was local wains playing with matches that resulted in the inferno) just to decorate the page!!!!!! Oh, and the image was also deemed indistinct. My, my, how inconsiderate of the Provos not to plant the bomb in broad daylight making it easier for photographers to get good shots of the raging fire. The BBC obviously thought the image was suitable to use in their article about the bombing. I wonder if the bombing itself will also be judged as apparant? Jesus f..king wept.
- It's one of the big problems on here that too much power has been given to a cadre of people who are, with some notable exceptions, rude arseholes. They'll talk rubbish, mostly in the form of sticking WP in front of random letters, completely ignoring common sense and then their mate will tun up and say the same thing with another bunch of letters, all the while talking to you like you just got here yesterday even though have of them are bloody 17 year olds who get adminship because they edit a bunch of those WP articles (which, let's face it, add nothing whatsoever to the project in terms of being an actual encyclopedia). It is very off-putting really and it does sometimes make you think "what's the bloody point". Keresaspa (talk) 17:27, 7 February 2012 (UTC)
- A lot of editors feel that way judging by the amount of good content contributors who have indeed left the project due to sheer frustration of having their painstakingly-long and hard work repeatedly undone by the type of people you accurately describe above. It's pointless arguing with those types as they just keep shoving WP in your face and their "friends" arrive adding their useless, uninformed, sarky opinions to the debate which is then misconstrued as "consensus"! And the train wreck rolls on.....--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 08:07, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
- It's one of the big problems on here that too much power has been given to a cadre of people who are, with some notable exceptions, rude arseholes. They'll talk rubbish, mostly in the form of sticking WP in front of random letters, completely ignoring common sense and then their mate will tun up and say the same thing with another bunch of letters, all the while talking to you like you just got here yesterday even though have of them are bloody 17 year olds who get adminship because they edit a bunch of those WP articles (which, let's face it, add nothing whatsoever to the project in terms of being an actual encyclopedia). It is very off-putting really and it does sometimes make you think "what's the bloody point". Keresaspa (talk) 17:27, 7 February 2012 (UTC)
- It's one of the reasons why I boycotted Wikipedia on Sunday. Qhen I spend hours on a daily basis of my precious time attempting to build an encyclopedia by creating and expanding articles, spend more precious time looking for images which enhance the articles' quality only to be accused of uploading an image of a burning building apparantly caused by a bomb(don't think it was local wains playing with matches that resulted in the inferno) just to decorate the page!!!!!! Oh, and the image was also deemed indistinct. My, my, how inconsiderate of the Provos not to plant the bomb in broad daylight making it easier for photographers to get good shots of the raging fire. The BBC obviously thought the image was suitable to use in their article about the bombing. I wonder if the bombing itself will also be judged as apparant? Jesus f..king wept.
- The technocrats strike again. That's the main reason I've always been wary about uploading anything I didn't take as I always suspected there would be a member of the gerbil brigade looking any excuse to remove them. Still, I suppose that a picture of a bombing in the article about the very same bombing is a tenuous link. Well, if you ignore all concepts of common sense it is. Keresaspa (talk) 19:12, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks. Someone has nominated the image I uploaded for deletion saying that a picture of a burning building apparantly caused by a bomb doesn't add anything to the article!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 19:02, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
- Great stuff, good and complete. Not sure if I would have anything to add there but I'll have a look. Keresaspa (talk) 19:00, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
- Nobody could ever take Jackie for being anything but a Belfast man. I'd wager his family have been in Belfast for generations. Oh, I've been expanding the La Mon restaurant bombing article. What do you think?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:26, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
- My ma said McMichael was a looker too. J Mac? He has a real Belfast look about him I reckon. Keresaspa (talk) 18:21, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
- Rememebr four months after McMichael's death, Tyrie found a bomb under his car. He had no doubt it was placed there by other UDA members. Looking at his face in the YouTube video of McMichael's funeral, Tyrie was devastated by his murder. He was highly-regarded and what's more very attractive to women. That could be why Rosena Brown went into the "Admiral Benbow" to warn him. Personally I find Jackie McDonald very attractive.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 13:57, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
- Tommy Lyttle might well have been the one rather than Craig but again the Shankill's Andy Tyrie would face questions about how it happened. I'm not suggesting for a second Tyrie had a hand in McMichael's death (I doubt he did as by all accounts they were very close) just that he failed to prevent it like a proper leader should have. Mind you by that point he was lsoing his grip on the UDA anyway. Keresaspa (talk) 20:06, 4 February 2012 (UTC)
- It's possible Hanna did provide Brown with info on McMichael but in the end it was Craig who actually let the IRA know when and where to find him the night he was killed. I beleive McMichael had just returned home from a two-week absence the night he was blown up, so somebody (most likely Craig, as you say) alerted the IRA. Jackie McDonald thinks Tommy Lyttle was the culprit.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:34, 4 February 2012 (UTC)
- I looked for stuff about Hanna too but I drew a blank on that score. McDonald and Cusack don't even name him, they just say Brown was with a prison officer. As to Tyrie's claim I'm not convinced personally. The evidence for Craig being behind it seems pretty strong and it fits his weasel personality. Do I detect the Shankill's Andy Tyrie trying to deflect potentially awkward questions about how a double agent like Craig was able to operate so brazenly on the same Shankill Road? I've only seen the recent photo of Brown. I thought I might have recognised her with her being an actress but she doesn't ring a bell. Keresaspa (talk) 19:31, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- I like your additions. Thank you. The statement from the UDA was interesting. DO you think Hanna set up John McMichael as Andy Tyrie suggested? Jackie McDonald didn't believe Craig had a hand in it. Have you seen photos of Brown when she was younger? Georgeous! Really beautiful, no wonder she was used as a "honey trap"!!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 08:50, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- Sorry about not adding anything to either but I didn't get back on here yesterday with one thing and another. I'll have a scout around tonight although I've found on the republican side basic biographical info is often harder to find. I still have no idea what Proinsias MacAirt died of for instance! Seven children? I have none and that's too many for me! Even the merest thought of ever having children makes me break out in a cold sweat. I can't even look after myself let alone anybody else! Keresaspa (talk) 19:59, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks. I added some stuff to Brown's article today, but I'm still missing a lot of basic biographical information. God, with 7 kids how did she find the time to gather information for the IRA?!!!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:42, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
- Good work. Not overly familiar with either of them personally but I'll see if I can add anything. The Bunch of Grapes is closed down but is up for sale as a going concern. I'm not sure when it closed but it wasn't too long ago and it was definitely open since Gray's death. It was called something else for a while after he died. I can't remember exactly what but it was something related to Rangers. I would have got the Avenue One as well but it is long gone and to be honest I'm not sure exactly where it was as Templemore Avenue has changed, and is still changing, an awful lot in the last few years. Keresaspa (talk) 20:05, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
- Bingo! I found some stuff - Rosena Brown is now under construction!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 10:15, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
|:::::::::::::::::::::Nope, arguing with those types is a total waste of time. They've memorised the rule book from A to Z (or even invented the rules half the time) and if you dare suggest that their pet rule is daft then their heads practically explode. There are a handful of decent admins and technical worker types out there but the system here seems a little too set up to reward anally retentive pedants who gather into little nerdy cliques which seem only to exist to get in the way of people actually creating and improving articles. Keresaspa (talk) 20:00, 8 February 2012 (UTC) On a different note, I have just read that Ian Paisley is seriously ill. He represents an era.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 08:53, 7 February 2012 (UTC)
- One I'll be glad to see the back of personally but I'm not going there in case the thought police use it against me on here. Keresaspa (talk) 17:27, 7 February 2012 (UTC)
Departing editors
Yesterday two established editors left the project. They are both creators of high-quality articles and have worked very hard here to build the encyclopedia. They will be sorely missed as both possess excellent writing skills. I collaborated with one of them to bring two articles to GA Class. Wikipedia cannot afford to lose editors of this calibre.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:32, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
- There's more and more going that way unfortunately. Anybody I know? Keresaspa (talk) 18:19, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
- I don't know. They are User:Daicaregos and User:Giano. Two of Wikipedia's finest editors. It was Daicaregos who helped me get The Miami Showband Killings article up to GA Class.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 19:06, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
- Never directly conversed with Daicaregos but our paths have crossed plenty times on a number of articles. That is a big loss. The other name doesn't ring a bell but (s)he seems very prolific so again a big loss. A shame to see but there is only so much guff people will be prepared to put with when they are doing something for nothing. Keresaspa (talk) 19:36, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
- The irony is that people tend to put up with a lot less at the workplace. Normally, when so much petty shit coupled with rudeness is thrown in people's faces at work by their bosses and/or co-workers, they start looking for a new job. It seems that a volunteer's tolerance level is much higher.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 12:56, 10 February 2012 (UTC)
- I suppose the only difference is this place is the only game in town if you want to do this sort of thing. Keresaspa (talk) 19:49, 10 February 2012 (UTC)
- Very true. Have you any ideas for new articles? I was thinking of doing one on the Sean Graham's Betting Shop attack. What do you think?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 08:50, 11 February 2012 (UTC)
- I've been thinking about that one myself actually. They've just unveiled a new memorial stone at the site so very recent sources should be available. There should also be plenty to say about the aftermath given the whole Orange parade/five fingers controversy (I vaguely know one of the people who did that - he used to drive the bus to my school sometimes). McDonald & Cusack cover it too which will be a help and I should be able to get a few images for any article. Oddly enough a mate of mine lives in one of the flats above the bookies. Rather him than me that's for sure! Keresaspa (talk) 16:03, 11 February 2012 (UTC)
- Very true. Have you any ideas for new articles? I was thinking of doing one on the Sean Graham's Betting Shop attack. What do you think?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 08:50, 11 February 2012 (UTC)
- I suppose the only difference is this place is the only game in town if you want to do this sort of thing. Keresaspa (talk) 19:49, 10 February 2012 (UTC)
- The irony is that people tend to put up with a lot less at the workplace. Normally, when so much petty shit coupled with rudeness is thrown in people's faces at work by their bosses and/or co-workers, they start looking for a new job. It seems that a volunteer's tolerance level is much higher.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 12:56, 10 February 2012 (UTC)
- Never directly conversed with Daicaregos but our paths have crossed plenty times on a number of articles. That is a big loss. The other name doesn't ring a bell but (s)he seems very prolific so again a big loss. A shame to see but there is only so much guff people will be prepared to put with when they are doing something for nothing. Keresaspa (talk) 19:36, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
- I don't know. They are User:Daicaregos and User:Giano. Two of Wikipedia's finest editors. It was Daicaregos who helped me get The Miami Showband Killings article up to GA Class.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 19:06, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
WikiProject Article Rescue Squadron Newsletter
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Hi. When you recently edited Sean Graham shooting, you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page IRA (check to confirm | fix with Dab solver). Such links are almost always unintended, since a disambiguation page is merely a list of "Did you mean..." article titles. Read the FAQ • Join us at the DPL WikiProject.
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- I've since fixed the link.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 14:06, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
Sean Graham's betting shop
I have added a few things to your excellent article. I got them from the Taylor book. I really like the way you wrote this and the part about James Kennedy's last words was inspired. It brought tears to my eyes. Congratulations on another well-done, first-class article, Keresaspa!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 14:10, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
- Good additions, thanks for those. Looks good now (apart from that picture of the shop itself which came out all grainy for some reason). Off the record the bit about his last words almost had me sniffing and it's been nigh on ten years since I cried! Keresaspa (talk) 19:49, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
- So, so sad. There were so many James Kennedys unfortunately throughout the 30-year-or-more conflict. Just look at how many teenagers died in the Omagh bombing, Bloody Sunday, and Dublin....--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:21, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
- My mum knew James Kennedy's mum so yikes. She knew at least one of the older men killed as well. I think I vaguely remember James Kennedy myself. I didn't know him as such as he was a few years older than me and was at a different school and like most 12 year olds (which I was at the time) my social circle didn't extend beyond the school gates but I had seen him around and my second-cousin (who is around my age) knew him well enough. Keresaspa (talk) 01:06, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
- How sad to die so young and in such a brutal manner. His poor mother - it's bad enough to lose a child but in a shooting attack...diabolical. It seemed that a very high number of the dead throughout the conflict were teens. Last night I had a bizarre dream. I dreamt of Jackie McDonald. Weird.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:13, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
- Indeed a lot of teenagers did seem to die. Brutal times. You dreamed about Jack Mac. Dare I ask what it involved seeing as you fancy him :D Keresaspa (talk) 00:56, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
- Ah....seeing as this is a public forum I'd best keep silent on what happened in my dream. Remember the old 1960s song Silence is Golden? LOL. Oh, I finally did it. Yesterday I created this article: 1973 Coleraine bombings.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:15, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
- Nice one. Not sure I've anything to add. To be honest I'm always wary of getting involved in articles about the republican side as there is a group of five or six republican obsessives who are always all over them and always back each other up over very POV edits. It reminds me too much of the far right mob who always remove any reference from Searchlight magazine from articles because they decided unilaterally it is not a reliable source. You try to argue but how do you argue sensibly with a fascist when part of their whole ideology is rejecting reason and logic?! So far the same thing hasn't happened with loyalist articles although it is only a matter of time. Keresaspa (talk) 19:46, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
- I know who you mean. One of them comes along with a POV edit/revert and then lo and behold the rest spring up on the page just like so many mushrooms all quoting WP!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 16:36, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
- To be fair to the ones I'm thinking of they do make some good edits but half the time their articles end up reading like a copy of An Phoblacht. For me it is essential to keep your own political opinions out of your editing as much as possible. In a weird way one of my proudest days on here was when a series of edits I made to the Augusto Pinochet article led to me being labelled as part of a monetarist cadre operating on Wikipedia. In my personal beliefs I'm about as far removed from monetarism as it's possible to get but being labelled as such made me think at least I'm not forcing my own slant on what is supposed to be a neutral encyclopedia. There are definitely a few involved in the Ireland articles who could do with thinking the same way. Keresaspa (talk) 19:34, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
- Ideally, an editor's personal POV should never manifest in the articles he or she writes. For instance, you always write from a NPOV.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:44, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
- Same with you - I think we both realise and accept that Wikipedia is not our personal website and as such our interpretations don't really count on here (apart from on talk pages where anything goes as far as I'm concerned). It's a pity more people didn't cotton on to that as God knows there are literally hundreds of outlets on the internet for people to give their opinion on things without trying to make Wikipedia another one. Keresaspa (talk) 00:21, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
- Ideally, an editor's personal POV should never manifest in the articles he or she writes. For instance, you always write from a NPOV.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:44, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
- To be fair to the ones I'm thinking of they do make some good edits but half the time their articles end up reading like a copy of An Phoblacht. For me it is essential to keep your own political opinions out of your editing as much as possible. In a weird way one of my proudest days on here was when a series of edits I made to the Augusto Pinochet article led to me being labelled as part of a monetarist cadre operating on Wikipedia. In my personal beliefs I'm about as far removed from monetarism as it's possible to get but being labelled as such made me think at least I'm not forcing my own slant on what is supposed to be a neutral encyclopedia. There are definitely a few involved in the Ireland articles who could do with thinking the same way. Keresaspa (talk) 19:34, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
- I know who you mean. One of them comes along with a POV edit/revert and then lo and behold the rest spring up on the page just like so many mushrooms all quoting WP!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 16:36, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
- Nice one. Not sure I've anything to add. To be honest I'm always wary of getting involved in articles about the republican side as there is a group of five or six republican obsessives who are always all over them and always back each other up over very POV edits. It reminds me too much of the far right mob who always remove any reference from Searchlight magazine from articles because they decided unilaterally it is not a reliable source. You try to argue but how do you argue sensibly with a fascist when part of their whole ideology is rejecting reason and logic?! So far the same thing hasn't happened with loyalist articles although it is only a matter of time. Keresaspa (talk) 19:46, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
- Ah....seeing as this is a public forum I'd best keep silent on what happened in my dream. Remember the old 1960s song Silence is Golden? LOL. Oh, I finally did it. Yesterday I created this article: 1973 Coleraine bombings.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:15, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
- Indeed a lot of teenagers did seem to die. Brutal times. You dreamed about Jack Mac. Dare I ask what it involved seeing as you fancy him :D Keresaspa (talk) 00:56, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
- How sad to die so young and in such a brutal manner. His poor mother - it's bad enough to lose a child but in a shooting attack...diabolical. It seemed that a very high number of the dead throughout the conflict were teens. Last night I had a bizarre dream. I dreamt of Jackie McDonald. Weird.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:13, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
- My mum knew James Kennedy's mum so yikes. She knew at least one of the older men killed as well. I think I vaguely remember James Kennedy myself. I didn't know him as such as he was a few years older than me and was at a different school and like most 12 year olds (which I was at the time) my social circle didn't extend beyond the school gates but I had seen him around and my second-cousin (who is around my age) knew him well enough. Keresaspa (talk) 01:06, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
- So, so sad. There were so many James Kennedys unfortunately throughout the 30-year-or-more conflict. Just look at how many teenagers died in the Omagh bombing, Bloody Sunday, and Dublin....--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:21, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
WikiProject Romania
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--Codrin.B (talk) 15:09, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
- Seeing as you asked so nicely why not? Keresaspa (talk) 19:49, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
- -) welcome! Looking forward to collaborate on great articles!--Codrin.B (talk) 03:46, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
Any ideas?
I have an urge to create a new article but have run out of ideas. What do you think? I know there are people and events that don't yet have articles.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 06:53, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
- Pretty stumped myself - I've even had to fall back on far right article editing this last week or so. Brian Robinson (loyalist) needs a big improvement as it just seems to be about his death but I'm not sure how notable he is to be honest. Keresaspa (talk) 18:24, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
- I'll take a look at it to see what I can do. Yesterday I created this article: 1988 Lisburn van bombing. Have you ever heard of east Belfast UVF commander Robert "Squeak" Seymour? His image is one of the four on that mural I photographed in Island Street. Perhaps he's notable enough for an article.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:29, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
- I've added a bit to Robinson but it is still about his death. Seymour is covered twice in Cusack & McDonald's UVF book, once as the killer of an IRA member by the name of James "Skipper" Burns and then a bit about his death. Depends what sources you have about him I suppose as I don't think they would be enough. Not sure if I've shown you this or not but that Island Street mural has been painted over now. The new version looks a bit like this although the four heads are bigger and sort of raised up from the mural on pieces of wood now. I tried to get a better image last time I was round there but it required standing in the road and there was too much traffic and rain! Lisburn article looks good. Keresaspa (talk) 18:01, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
- When was the new mural painted? Personally, I think the photo looks really good. Traffic? The last time I was there, there was only a group of guys painting a mural (two actually painting, about five watching!) Would you happen to know whether of not anyone was ever charged for the Lisburn van bombing? The Brian Robinson article really needs to be completely rewritten. I don't like to criticise anyone's efforts here, but the article in its present state looks as if the sentences were just thrown up without regards to flow or style in the prose - just staccato one-liners. The creator of the page is a name I don't recognise.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:15, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
- It would have been at most a week before I took that picture so early October 2011. However I think they started doing it in August as I can remember it taking absolute ages for some reason. Traffic round there is inconsistent - there are few office buildings at the bottom of the Ballymac Road and so cars will come from that direction in late afternoon. Brian Robinson seems to be pretty much not notable apart from his death. I'm not sure what could be done to improve it as there is nothing else about him out there. He seems to have been a thoroughly unremarkable person on the bottom rung of the UVF. I'm not going to nominate it for deletion as all that old rubbish does my head in but if somebody does I wouldn't be surprised. Not familiar with the creator either. Keresaspa (talk) 00:56, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
- When was the new mural painted? Personally, I think the photo looks really good. Traffic? The last time I was there, there was only a group of guys painting a mural (two actually painting, about five watching!) Would you happen to know whether of not anyone was ever charged for the Lisburn van bombing? The Brian Robinson article really needs to be completely rewritten. I don't like to criticise anyone's efforts here, but the article in its present state looks as if the sentences were just thrown up without regards to flow or style in the prose - just staccato one-liners. The creator of the page is a name I don't recognise.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:15, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
- I've added a bit to Robinson but it is still about his death. Seymour is covered twice in Cusack & McDonald's UVF book, once as the killer of an IRA member by the name of James "Skipper" Burns and then a bit about his death. Depends what sources you have about him I suppose as I don't think they would be enough. Not sure if I've shown you this or not but that Island Street mural has been painted over now. The new version looks a bit like this although the four heads are bigger and sort of raised up from the mural on pieces of wood now. I tried to get a better image last time I was round there but it required standing in the road and there was too much traffic and rain! Lisburn article looks good. Keresaspa (talk) 18:01, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
- I'll take a look at it to see what I can do. Yesterday I created this article: 1988 Lisburn van bombing. Have you ever heard of east Belfast UVF commander Robert "Squeak" Seymour? His image is one of the four on that mural I photographed in Island Street. Perhaps he's notable enough for an article.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:29, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
Squeak Seymour
I found some stuff on Robert Seymour (loyalist) so went ahead and created an article on him. What do you think? BTW, hope you're enjoying your wikibreak.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 14:16, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
- Good work. You've included the stuff from the UVF book which was all I could dig up so I've nothing to add right now (might be able to get a picture of his Ballymac plaque but that won't be for a while). If his video shop is the one I think it is then I know it quite well. Keresaspa (talk) 00:59, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks. It was amazing what came up just by doing a search at Google Books. There are loads of videos dedicated to him on YouTube. It was fortunate that I took the photo of his mural on Ballymac and Frazer Pass. Does the book (UVF) provide anymore info on his shooting? Did it take place actually inside the video shop or the alley beside it? Oh, the shop is still standing! Whereabouts is it on Woodstock Road? Sorry for all the questions.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:58, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
- Have you not seen the book? I'm assumed you must have as plenty of it is in the article and nobody else has edited the article. But it just mentions his death in passing with no detail that you haven't already included. I should caution about the video that I don't know for definite where it is. There is one that has been there for as long as I can remember near the corner of Ardgowan Street but 1988 is a long time ago and there may have been others at that point. I've known the Woodstock Road first hand for a long time, possibly from the late 80s, but exact details of what was where in those days are pretty sketchy in my mind. Were it anywhere else in Belfast there would probably be a commemorative plaque but the Woodstock Road, despite being solid loyalist, is very sparse with the wall decorations for some reason. Keresaspa (talk) 17:59, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
- I got part of the UVF book dealing with Seymour from that treaure chest Google Books, but I couldn't download the entire page. Thanks a million for correcting my error. I had assumed Rodney Parade was off the Falls. I'm surprised there isn't a plaque there. Is Woodstock Road south of the Castlereagh Road?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:34, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
- Rodney Parade is very near the Falls, although it runs directly off the Donegall Road. The local residents would identify themselves as Falls Roaders to be honest but for the sake of accuracy it's best to say it is off the Donegall Road. There are no plaques at all on the Woodstock Road that I can think of and only two murals, one about the YCV in the First World War [1] and the other for a local flute band [2]. Woodstock Road is more or less parallel to the Castlereagh Road and the two link at a bunch of locations. The Woodstock Road eventually becomes the Cregagh Road which leads onto the Upper Knockbreda Road, as does the Castlereagh Road. The Newtownards Road is really the main drag in that area though. Woodstock/Cregagh and Castlereagh Roads were always UVF turf in the main although at the election last year the Cregagh Road actually got its first ever Sinn Fein poster. I've no idea who was brave/mad enough to do that mind you! Keresaspa (talk) 18:47, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
- I just made a tweak. How does it look now? I thought the Falls should be mentioned seeing as locals see themselves as such.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:54, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
- Yup, I'll go with that. Keresaspa (talk) 18:57, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
- Oh remember the other day you were saying that Martin Dillon tends to overly dramatise events? Well, I read on a blog where he did just that in his book on the Shankill Butchers. In particular when he claims that Lenny Murphy pulled out a victim's teeth with pliers. According to RUC detective Alan Simpson that's not correct. Shankill Butcher Tommy Stewart hit the victim in the teeth with a shovel, knocking them out. Pliers were never used! Simpson is an impeccable source seeing as he was a high-ranking RUC officer who investigated many murders including Anne Ogilby's.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 19:01, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
- Dillon loves to ladle it on and to be honest I think the Shankill Butchers were evil enough and he is doing their victims a disservice by fictionalising aspects of their deaths. Happen it fits his version of the story better to portray the Shankill Butchers as Murphy and some stooges as it makes more dramatic sense than the possibility that they were just a bunch of maniacs of whom Murphy happened to have the highest public profile. As I've said before Dillon has done some excellent investigative work but equally his sideline as a fiction author does shine through at times. Keresaspa (talk) 19:06, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
- If you look at photos of all the Butchers, William Moore was probably the scariest one and looked the most depraved of the lot.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 19:21, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
- Sam McAllister was pretty fierce-looking too but there was no doubt Moore looked every inch the psychopath. Keresaspa (talk) 00:07, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
- I just expanded Moore's article a bit as it really needed fleshing out. Imagine his face being the last thing you saw. God, even his own mother thanked Jimmmy Nesbitt for jailing him! That guy was really a sociopath. Basher Bates looked like a dangerous simpleton, but strangely enough Lenny Murphy looked ordinary.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 08:40, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
- I've often thought that about Lenny Murphy. I remember knowing men who looked a bit like him in the 80s. Oddly enough Moore looks likea guy I knew as well, although this guy was a hard nut himself. Keresaspa (talk) 19:43, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
- Looks can be very deceptive . Just take a look at these guys here: Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold. They don't look any different to millions of American teenagers one would encounter in any high school across the USA. Not in any way intimidating. And yet....--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 06:53, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
- Very true. Eric Harris especially is "boy next door" defined. Keresaspa (talk) 17:59, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
- The tragic thing is the boys could have been saved from themselves. I think had the parents not sent Eric Harris to the doctor who prescribed DRUGS for him(!!!) and instead got proper treatment for him, the massacre might have been averted. Dylan was the classic follower. Without Eric the attack wouldn't have happened.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:30, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
- I can't claim to know much about it but whenever doctors starting throwing drugs at a problem (which they all too often do) things have a tendency to go very wrong. The levels of dependency that the medical profession encourages are frankly scandalous. Keresaspa (talk) 18:34, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
- IMO, Eric's parents nneded to have acted like parents and not their son's "friends". They should have sent him away to a strict boarding school instead of allowing him to buy guns, watch video nasties, obsess about violence and killing, and build bombs in the basement! FFS, did they honestly think that was normal teenage behaviour that he would outgrow?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:42, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
- Like I say, I know very little about the case so I couldn't comment. To be honest my only reaction at the time was thank God I don't go to school in the USA because it sounds like hell on earth with all its cliques and codes. There were groups in my school but the whole thing seemed a lot more fluid and good-humoured. Keresaspa (talk) 18:48, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
- Take it from me American schools are indeed traumatic dangerous places. Read the article on the massacre. It's quite good and very complete. I edited the Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold page a bit today.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:51, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
- Don't get me wrong Belfast school was no picnic but there wasn't so much putting people into little boxes and seeing some excluded. As I think I've mentioned I was a metalhead/punk in those days and as such I associated with others of that ilk but I would talk to others who had no interest in any of that and even got on well with a number of spides despite them supposedly being our arch enemies. People found things in common and, whilst they had their groups of friends, there was a lot of mixing went on. That whole "if you're a jock/nerd/preppy/whatever you only bother with other jocks/nerds/preppies/whatevers" paradigm would have driven me mad. Keresaspa (talk) 18:57, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
- In my high school it was surfers, lowriders, hippies, nerds, freaks and they all stucjìk with their own group.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 19:04, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
- Whereabouts was this? Keresaspa (talk) 19:20, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
- Venice High School in Venice, California. Mad place.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 19:59, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
- Even I've heard of there actually. Some pretty big names went there - Beau Bridges, Myrna Loy, Jeanne Boleyn. All my place had was Liam Neeson and even he went to an earlier version of the school I was at. Keresaspa (talk) 23:44, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
- IMO, Liam Neeson is far more legendary than Myrna Loy, despite her being called "Queen of Hollywood" in 1937. In fact he's one of my favourite actors. I had assumed Neeson had gone to school in Ballymena.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:20, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
- You can have him, I'll take Myrna - love them old school vamps! Liam Neeson went to St Patrick's which was in or near Ballymena but it merged with a girls school called Our Lady's and relocated to Dundonald as a co-ed school. As such Liam Neeson didn't really go there but every time there was a function of any type they would wheel out the school's head buck cat (who was also a Ballymena native) and he would start wittering about "I remember when Liam Neeson went here". Basically the school had no other claim to fame whatsoever (having hand grenades lobbed at you by Albert Ginger Baker not counting as a claim to fame) so they made a song and dance about that one even though it wasn't strictly true. Our place had a bit of an inferiority complex towards St Malachy's College as it was the only Catholic school with any sort of history behind it. I almost went there myself but my ma decided it was too far from our house and sent me to OLSPCK instead. Funny thing is St Macs was about four miles away and St Pats five and a half! Keresaspa (talk) 19:32, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
- The only modern woman who comes closest to being a vamp in the traditional style is Dita Von Teese.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 16:19, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
- After seeing Margaret Cho's burlesque act I would add her to the list too. Phwoarr! Keresaspa (talk) 17:02, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
- I have never seen her perform, but Von Teese's provocative routine at the Sanremo Music Festival 2010 caused one guest to have a public onstage erection. I almost fell out of my bed laughing.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:34, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
- Dita von Teese was on stage with the German entry at the Eurovision Song Contest a few years back. Suffice to say like most other men I can't remember a single note of the song but I certainly enjoyed the show! Keresaspa (talk) 18:20, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
- I have never seen her perform, but Von Teese's provocative routine at the Sanremo Music Festival 2010 caused one guest to have a public onstage erection. I almost fell out of my bed laughing.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:34, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
- After seeing Margaret Cho's burlesque act I would add her to the list too. Phwoarr! Keresaspa (talk) 17:02, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
- The only modern woman who comes closest to being a vamp in the traditional style is Dita Von Teese.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 16:19, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
- You can have him, I'll take Myrna - love them old school vamps! Liam Neeson went to St Patrick's which was in or near Ballymena but it merged with a girls school called Our Lady's and relocated to Dundonald as a co-ed school. As such Liam Neeson didn't really go there but every time there was a function of any type they would wheel out the school's head buck cat (who was also a Ballymena native) and he would start wittering about "I remember when Liam Neeson went here". Basically the school had no other claim to fame whatsoever (having hand grenades lobbed at you by Albert Ginger Baker not counting as a claim to fame) so they made a song and dance about that one even though it wasn't strictly true. Our place had a bit of an inferiority complex towards St Malachy's College as it was the only Catholic school with any sort of history behind it. I almost went there myself but my ma decided it was too far from our house and sent me to OLSPCK instead. Funny thing is St Macs was about four miles away and St Pats five and a half! Keresaspa (talk) 19:32, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
- IMO, Liam Neeson is far more legendary than Myrna Loy, despite her being called "Queen of Hollywood" in 1937. In fact he's one of my favourite actors. I had assumed Neeson had gone to school in Ballymena.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:20, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
- Even I've heard of there actually. Some pretty big names went there - Beau Bridges, Myrna Loy, Jeanne Boleyn. All my place had was Liam Neeson and even he went to an earlier version of the school I was at. Keresaspa (talk) 23:44, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
- Venice High School in Venice, California. Mad place.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 19:59, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
- Whereabouts was this? Keresaspa (talk) 19:20, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
- In my high school it was surfers, lowriders, hippies, nerds, freaks and they all stucjìk with their own group.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 19:04, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
- Like I say, I know very little about the case so I couldn't comment. To be honest my only reaction at the time was thank God I don't go to school in the USA because it sounds like hell on earth with all its cliques and codes. There were groups in my school but the whole thing seemed a lot more fluid and good-humoured. Keresaspa (talk) 18:48, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
- IMO, Eric's parents nneded to have acted like parents and not their son's "friends". They should have sent him away to a strict boarding school instead of allowing him to buy guns, watch video nasties, obsess about violence and killing, and build bombs in the basement! FFS, did they honestly think that was normal teenage behaviour that he would outgrow?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:42, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
- I can't claim to know much about it but whenever doctors starting throwing drugs at a problem (which they all too often do) things have a tendency to go very wrong. The levels of dependency that the medical profession encourages are frankly scandalous. Keresaspa (talk) 18:34, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
- The tragic thing is the boys could have been saved from themselves. I think had the parents not sent Eric Harris to the doctor who prescribed DRUGS for him(!!!) and instead got proper treatment for him, the massacre might have been averted. Dylan was the classic follower. Without Eric the attack wouldn't have happened.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:30, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
- Very true. Eric Harris especially is "boy next door" defined. Keresaspa (talk) 17:59, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
- Looks can be very deceptive . Just take a look at these guys here: Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold. They don't look any different to millions of American teenagers one would encounter in any high school across the USA. Not in any way intimidating. And yet....--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 06:53, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
- I've often thought that about Lenny Murphy. I remember knowing men who looked a bit like him in the 80s. Oddly enough Moore looks likea guy I knew as well, although this guy was a hard nut himself. Keresaspa (talk) 19:43, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
- I just expanded Moore's article a bit as it really needed fleshing out. Imagine his face being the last thing you saw. God, even his own mother thanked Jimmmy Nesbitt for jailing him! That guy was really a sociopath. Basher Bates looked like a dangerous simpleton, but strangely enough Lenny Murphy looked ordinary.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 08:40, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
- Sam McAllister was pretty fierce-looking too but there was no doubt Moore looked every inch the psychopath. Keresaspa (talk) 00:07, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
- If you look at photos of all the Butchers, William Moore was probably the scariest one and looked the most depraved of the lot.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 19:21, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
- Dillon loves to ladle it on and to be honest I think the Shankill Butchers were evil enough and he is doing their victims a disservice by fictionalising aspects of their deaths. Happen it fits his version of the story better to portray the Shankill Butchers as Murphy and some stooges as it makes more dramatic sense than the possibility that they were just a bunch of maniacs of whom Murphy happened to have the highest public profile. As I've said before Dillon has done some excellent investigative work but equally his sideline as a fiction author does shine through at times. Keresaspa (talk) 19:06, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
- Oh remember the other day you were saying that Martin Dillon tends to overly dramatise events? Well, I read on a blog where he did just that in his book on the Shankill Butchers. In particular when he claims that Lenny Murphy pulled out a victim's teeth with pliers. According to RUC detective Alan Simpson that's not correct. Shankill Butcher Tommy Stewart hit the victim in the teeth with a shovel, knocking them out. Pliers were never used! Simpson is an impeccable source seeing as he was a high-ranking RUC officer who investigated many murders including Anne Ogilby's.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 19:01, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
- Yup, I'll go with that. Keresaspa (talk) 18:57, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
- I just made a tweak. How does it look now? I thought the Falls should be mentioned seeing as locals see themselves as such.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:54, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
- Rodney Parade is very near the Falls, although it runs directly off the Donegall Road. The local residents would identify themselves as Falls Roaders to be honest but for the sake of accuracy it's best to say it is off the Donegall Road. There are no plaques at all on the Woodstock Road that I can think of and only two murals, one about the YCV in the First World War [1] and the other for a local flute band [2]. Woodstock Road is more or less parallel to the Castlereagh Road and the two link at a bunch of locations. The Woodstock Road eventually becomes the Cregagh Road which leads onto the Upper Knockbreda Road, as does the Castlereagh Road. The Newtownards Road is really the main drag in that area though. Woodstock/Cregagh and Castlereagh Roads were always UVF turf in the main although at the election last year the Cregagh Road actually got its first ever Sinn Fein poster. I've no idea who was brave/mad enough to do that mind you! Keresaspa (talk) 18:47, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
- I got part of the UVF book dealing with Seymour from that treaure chest Google Books, but I couldn't download the entire page. Thanks a million for correcting my error. I had assumed Rodney Parade was off the Falls. I'm surprised there isn't a plaque there. Is Woodstock Road south of the Castlereagh Road?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:34, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
- Have you not seen the book? I'm assumed you must have as plenty of it is in the article and nobody else has edited the article. But it just mentions his death in passing with no detail that you haven't already included. I should caution about the video that I don't know for definite where it is. There is one that has been there for as long as I can remember near the corner of Ardgowan Street but 1988 is a long time ago and there may have been others at that point. I've known the Woodstock Road first hand for a long time, possibly from the late 80s, but exact details of what was where in those days are pretty sketchy in my mind. Were it anywhere else in Belfast there would probably be a commemorative plaque but the Woodstock Road, despite being solid loyalist, is very sparse with the wall decorations for some reason. Keresaspa (talk) 17:59, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks. It was amazing what came up just by doing a search at Google Books. There are loads of videos dedicated to him on YouTube. It was fortunate that I took the photo of his mural on Ballymac and Frazer Pass. Does the book (UVF) provide anymore info on his shooting? Did it take place actually inside the video shop or the alley beside it? Oh, the shop is still standing! Whereabouts is it on Woodstock Road? Sorry for all the questions.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:58, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
Brian Robinson
A big thanks for getting the image of the Brian Robinson mural on his page.It really enhances the article I created.Good work.DColt (talk) 21:31, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
- No problem at all :) Keresaspa (talk) 23:39, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
- Yes it does look good.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 16:18, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
What do you think?
This article (Baroness Micaela Almonester de Pontalba) has nothing to do with the Troubles, but I creasted it back in 2008. Today I expanded it considerably. How does it look to you? I spent the whole today adding stuff to it. Whew!!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:39, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
- Nice. First time I've ever heard of her in my life but it looks great. She sounds like a hell of a character too. I've been going back to some of my own earlier stuff on here recently, specifically figures in the pre-Anschluss Austrian Nazi Party. Now and again it does a body good to have a break from NI articles. Keresaspa (talk) 19:15, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks. What is it about redheaded women? They sure seem to lead exciting lives. Her particular situation certainly gave a whole new dimension to in-law problems!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:19, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
- Red for danger as they always say :) Keresaspa (talk) 00:11, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks. What is it about redheaded women? They sure seem to lead exciting lives. Her particular situation certainly gave a whole new dimension to in-law problems!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:19, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
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