User talk:Keresaspa/Archive 5

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Orange Lil and the Beehive Ladies

Do you remember Orange Lil? The Belfast lady who was known in the media by her Union Jack dresses she always wore on the 12th July? She was killed by her daughter in 1982. How about the notorious "beehive ladies" of the Shankill in the early 1970s?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 08:03, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

I've seen that auld targe in picutres although she was a bit before my time. Ditto the "beehive ladies" although most women in Belfast had beehives in those days, including my ma! Whenever I hear of Orange Lil I always think of Jimmie Young whose house is just down the road from me. Keresaspa (talk) 16:45, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

I was just watching Taylor's documentary Loyalists on YouTube. Hutchinson is a ice-cold customer, and Mo Courtney looks dangerous. Some of the guys like Bobby Morton and Bob Philpotts seemed rather harmless in comparison. Have you ever seen a photo of Dave Fogel? Scareeee.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:01, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

I've seen Courtney in real life; he used to hang about with Adair up the town from time to time. Fogel looks a right headcase too. You can't always judge of course seeing as Lenny Murphy looks like the sort of guy you would pass in the street in that picture they always show of him. Keresaspa (talk) 17:08, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

I once served Bernadette Devlin in a cafe I worked in early 1982 when she was campaigning in Dublin's northside.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:14, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

Actually Gerry Adams rubbed my head once! I was only a kid at the time and I was passing the SF centre of the Falls when he came out and patted on me on the head. To be honest I don't think I even knew who he was at the time. Keresaspa (talk) 17:31, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

I was brought to the Sinn Finn centre once by a friend; afterwards we had a drink in a fortified pub on the Falls. What do you think of Adams?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:36, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

Fortified pub - sounds like the Rebel's Rest. Closed down last year. As for Adams I think he is a vain man who likes being a celebrity and who has become much too comfortable as an establishment figure. The principles he used to hold and those he holds now (if any) are a million miles apart. I suppose that could be maturity too but I'm not convinced it is anything more than a desire for self agrandisement. I also think that he should stand down as Sinn Fein as he has been in the job far too long and it is quite undemocratic for the same person to be in charge of a party for that long (a criticism I also levelled at Ian Pasiley until his resignation from the DUP leadership). Mind you I prefer him to McGuinness but that's not saying much! Keresaspa (talk) 18:00, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

I have a photo of it somewhere in my PC. I'll upload later. BTW, I like your latest articles. Very good, and informative. Oh what about John Bunting? He's a UDA brigadier.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:18, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

I prefer Danny Morrison to Adams and McGuinness.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:22, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

I would say all the brigadiers are notable and eventually should all be on here. Sources are the only problem for some - Samuel McClelland proved a bit of trouble on that score. Agreed too about Morrison - I think the fact that he's no longer involved speaks volumes about how Sinn Fein are these days. Keresaspa (talk) 22:33, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

I enjoyed Sean O'Callaghan's anecdote about Morrison having made a fool out of Adams at a meeting.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 05:59, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

I don't think Adams is in Danny Morrison's intellectual league really. Keresaspa (talk) 17:36, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Billy "Twister" McQuiston

I need your help in fleshing out this article. Taylor doesn't really elaborate on his role within the UDA. Would you happen to have any info on him? Thanks a million.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 15:02, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Funnily enough I was reading about him the other day in regards to the Jackie McDonald/Johnny Adair showdown so indeed I should have some stuff to add. I'll get on it tonight. Keresaspa (talk) 17:35, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Looks graet. Thanks. Would you happen to know the year he was first sent to prison and on what charge?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 06:23, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Not sure on that one. Keresaspa (talk) 16:36, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

I couldn't keep him off any longer

I created Davy Fogel this morning. It's still missing a lot of info, especially after the UDA were formed.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 09:39, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Is this the Rebel's Rest? Sorry for its poor quality. I was advised to take the photo quickly

It looks pretty good though. I'll see what I can add later but there is plenty of info there. As for the bar. Well, it's not the Rebel's Rest as it is/was a corner bar. I'm not sure where that is actually as a lot of the Falls has been redeveloped now. Don't suppose you remember where on the road it was in relation to some of the main landmarks? Keresaspa (talk) 16:32, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

I believe it was west of the Sinn Fein building. I'm glad you like the Fogel article. I'm not sure which rank he held OC of B Company I presume?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 16:53, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

There's a place near the corner of Broadway that it looks like now that I think of it. It has been closed for a while now and I can't remember what it used to be called but that might well be it. Not certain what Fogel's actual rank was - I'll keep looking. Keresaspa (talk) 17:41, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Added stuff from McDonald and Cusack ahead of schedule. Keresaspa (talk) 18:21, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Looks good. Thanks. He had a lot of power in the early days: a real hard man. It's strange how so many paramilitaries were in fact, English: Billy Wright, Fogel, Michael Stone and Sean MacStiofain.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 05:16, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

I suppose there's always been plenty of movement between here and England but MacStiofain's background is certainly the weirdest of the lot given his allegiances. Keresaspa (talk) 00:39, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

The Provos made a grave error in supporting MacStiofain's violent tactics, such as Bloody Friday. Look at how many loyalists flocked to the UDA and UVF after that day. Oh, I added an image to Tommy Herron.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 06:41, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

Hadn't seen Tommy Herron's face before - he looked a lot more nonchalant than I was expecting. Keresaspa (talk) 23:49, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

Davy Payne

A couple of years ago I created an article on Davy Payne. I was working on his article this morning. Does your McDonald & Cusack book have any info on him? I specifically need to know in which year he became North Belfast brigadier. Thanks.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 08:04, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

It doesn't say unfortunately. He is covered in the book but nothing of note not already in your article. Keresaspa (talk) 23:48, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

I read it was sometime in the early 1980s. Thanks anyway. Oh, I added an image of Sammy Duddy to his article. A pity I couldn't find one with "Bambi" in it! The killing of that dog got a lot of media coverage.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 06:10, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

Have you ever seen this:[1]?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 15:44, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

Pity it wasn't Sammy Duddy in his drag clothes. I've never seen a picture of that but I reckon it would be hilarious! As for the video - I think of anybody asked for a definition of the term "spide" that would be the place to point them! On a personal note I had forgotten just how much Michael Stone looked like a cousin of mine! Keresaspa (talk) 19:12, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

Stone always seems to crop up in photos and loyalist videos. His paintings are said to be worth a fortune. Oh, BTW, excellent article on the Bacardi Brigadier! Would he have taken over the North Belfast Brigade when Davy Payne was arrested in 1988?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 06:40, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

Look at what I found on YouTube: [2]! Would you say the guy giving the lecture was Billy Hanna or Robin Jackson? The clothing styles are clearly 1970s; Hanna was killed in July 1975. He was a weapons instructor in the UDR.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 09:20, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

There used to be a Michael Stone mural on Templemore Aveune that turns up in some of the youtube videos from time to time. It's one of the funniest things I've ever seen as it looks so cartoonish. Unfortunately it has been replaced with a UYM fist now. As for Bacardi boy there is a gap in the detail about him between joining the UDA and the Adair-UVF feud so I'm not sure when he took over. I've been trying to get a list of brigadier successions for the six brigades together but it has proven difficult as there are details missing and some brigades, namely the two outside Belfast, are largely ignored in the literature. The video meanwhile I would say has to be Hanna or Jackson. Who would have thought stuff like that would still be available? Keresaspa (talk) 16:40, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

I'm sure there's a lot more still out there. The accent doesn't appear to be a Belfast one. The only clue to it having been Hanna rather than Jackson is that upon close inspection, the body type seems to belong to a man in his 40s (Hanna) rather than Jackson who was 30 yrs old in 1976.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:10, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

Definitely not a Belfast accent and like you say does look and sound more than 30 so it must be Hanna. Keresaspa (talk) 18:01, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

Hanna was a native of Lurgan; Jackson was originlly from Tyrone but later moved to Lurgan. The accent is definitely not from Tyrone. I'd also put my money on it being Hanna.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:07, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

If it was a Tyrone accent you would be needing the subtitles! Keresaspa (talk) 18:12, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

And it would have taken him twice as long to give the lecture! Jackson joined the UDR in Lurgan in 1972 so at some stage prior to then he had left Donaghmore, Tyrone.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:15, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

I don't personally know Tyrone so I'm not sure how far Donaghmore is from Lurgan. The whole eastern section of Northern Ireland is pretty much unknown to me except Stroke City which I spent one day in about 15 years ago! Keresaspa (talk) 18:39, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

I'm quite familiar with the Tyrone accent as I have been to Omagh, had a boyfriend from Tyrone, as well as several flatmates from there. I knew a few people from Lurgan as well. I wonder if Harris Boyle is among that group in the video? Just think the 1974 Dublin bombings and the Miami Showband attack was perpetrated by people in that gang. There's a book out about Adair that was written by a former girlfriend, Jackie Robinson.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:43, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

I know the accent well enough because years ago I stuck with a bunch of their GAA fans on a train from Dublin. Didn't seem to know the meaning of volume control unfortunately and I had a right hangover! Legs has a book out? I wonder when she learned to write! I think my ma, who used to be a clairvoyant, did her a reading once. It was certianly one of Johnny's molls and from the description it sounded like her. Keresaspa (talk) 18:51, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

I am a Tarot cards reader. Robinson isn't bad-looking; she's in the clip with Adair. Oh, I just asked over in the comments section on the YouTube clip whether the guy giving the guns lecture was Billy Hanna or Robin Jackson. Maybe the uploader knows the answer.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:57, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

I don't believe in any fortune telling personally. And indeed Robinson is in the clip with her tattoo. Not my type to be honest. Worth a shot asking at the clip even though you'll need to wade through the usual "uvf r da best" and "up da ra" stuff that always infests the boxes on videos about here! Keresaspa (talk) 19:03, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

There has to be someone who knows. Hopefully I'll receive an answer. An article that really needs expansion is the John Gregg (UDA) article. I made a few edits to it earlier on. Oh, I found out Davy Payne was made brigadier of the North Belfast Brigade in 1974. This was after Harding Smith had ordered him off the Shankill and Tyrie in retaliation made Payne a brigadier. Now there was a frightening character.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 19:12, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

Gregg's article is one of those that predates our current efforts, many of which were in very poor states though I can see you have made a number of good changes to it. Bit of a flip-flopper was Gregg as he didn't seem to know whether he was pro or anti-Adair. I'll add to your stuff on that one later if I can. Payne as brigadier means we more or less know the entire north Belfast succession apart from when Reid gave way to Jimbo Simpson. Keresaspa (talk) 19:19, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

It didn't seem to fit that Payne was made a brigadier after he had become unpopular within the UDA. Also, there was nobody else who had the power Payne commanded in the 1970s, apart from Tyrie, Lyttle and John White. Wood's book cleared the mystery up. 1974 fits perfectly. Oh, when did John McMichael become South Belfast brigadier?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 06:16, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

Happen Payne had something on Andy Tyrie that meant he had to be kept around? Mind you McDonald and Cusack suggest that one of the reasons Tyrie was pushed out was because he made some bad choices in brigadier appointments so maybe he was just getting started early with Payne. As to McMichael I was actualy wondering the same thing myself the other night. I've never seen any name mentioned as coming before him so perhaps he was South Belfast's first brigadier. Equally its possible that South Belfast Brigade came along a bit later than some of the others as the first couple of years only seem to mention west and east Belfast. Which is my smart alec way of God knows :D Keresaspa (talk) 17:19, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

From what I've read, Payne always kept his mouth shut, never talked, not even under interrogation (He probably ended up doing the interrogating!). So that would have been an asset to an organisation like the UDA rife with touts and SB agents.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:50, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

I suppose too given that Payne's main problems were with Charles Harding Smith and Tyrie and him were hardly best mates he was maybe rewarding him. Keresaspa (talk) 18:11, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

Payne probably acted as Tyrie's rottweiler.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 19:07, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

More than likely as, from everything that has been written about him, Tyrie did not seem to be the toughest cookie personally. Keresaspa (talk) 19:16, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

Another one for the rogue's gallery

I just did one on this obscure yet briefly very powerful UDA leader: Jim Anderson (loyalist).--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 14:30, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

Nice one. I had Anderson on my own to do list so you've saved me a bit of a job. Keresaspa (talk) 17:19, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

Would you happen to know what Anderson and the United Loyalist Council delegation discussed with William Whitelaw in December 1972?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:49, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

Off the top of my head no but I'll dig the old books out tonight and see what's what. Keresaspa (talk) 18:59, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. For the short time he held power, Anderson managed to make a big impact what with restructuring, recruitment, etc.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 19:05, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

Indeed. Some of the early mob did have a big influence. Keresaspa (talk) 19:17, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

Thanks a million for your additions; they really improve the article.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 06:38, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

No worries at all. Keresaspa (talk) 16:54, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

Sammy McCormick

He merits an article, but where can we find information on him?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 08:42, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

I found the info-in your sandbox!!!!! What do you think of it?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 15:17, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

That was all I could find on him. Always keep an eye on there as I often dump stuff in it that might be useful for the future. As you can also see I'm experimenting with full lists of brigadiers for each of the six brigades - Londonderry and North Antrim looks comprehensive doesn't it?!

It's a treasure trove of info. I was able to write an article from the stuff on McCCormick!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:41, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

If I've missed any brigadiers that you know feel free to add them. Ideally I reckon every brigadier should have an entry although for some there is a chronic lack of sources. Keresaspa (talk) 18:07, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

I agree. That's why I did one on McCormick, despite the lack of info. He was brigadier for quite a while so he definitely merited an article. Billy McFarland needs one, same with Ken Barrett. William "Budgie" Allen, although not a brigadier is also notable enough for an article.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:22, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

I might have a go at McFarland tonight as there are a few sources available for him. Keresaspa (talk) 18:30, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I've seen a lot of media coverage on him.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:33, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

I've gone a head and made a start on Billy McFarland but I'll do more later. Keresaspa (talk) 18:53, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

Looks good! I did pose one question on its talk page.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 06:30, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

Cheers. I've answered on the talk page although not too specifically (lack of source detail again). Keresaspa (talk) 16:11, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

That looks fine. You've explained the general area. Oh today I did a bit of decorating on the Brigadier of Bling.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 16:17, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

Good show. I was thinking when I was doing over Grugg that Doris would probably need the same treatment so well done. Gray's another one I saw up the town a couple of times! Keresaspa (talk) 16:25, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

You saw Doris? Blond hair, bling and all? The UDA managed to produce some verrry unusual characters. The image really captures Gray's essence.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 16:41, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

Yup, there was no mistaking him as very few men that camp would be seen out in Belfast. That image is him to a tee. No doubt about it the UDA certainly attracted its share of flamboyant characters who loved attention. Keresaspa (talk) 16:44, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

Two more brigadiers

I have since added two more incumbent brigadiers to your sandbox: Matt Kincaid of West Belfast, and Jimmy Birch of East Belfast. They were part of the delegation of UDA brigadiers who were at the Queen's wreath-laying ceremony in Dublin.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:48, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

I've added Billy Elliot (also of the RHC), who is named by Wood as an East Belfast brigadier; this Sunday Times article mentions him as brigadier in 1986. I've also added Andy Robinson, named as a brigadier by Wood and also linked by him with the Londonderry Brigade, and Jim Spence, again named by Wood, and in various news articles. Incidentally, Steve Bruce, in The Edge of the Union, mentions a Mid Ulster brigade. Eddie Sayers is described in a few places as having been the "Mid Ulster" brigadier. Bruce implies that it may not always have existed, but it does look as though it might merit coverage? Warofdreams talk 12:24, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

Absolutely. Thanks. I had always believed that in the 1970s Glenanne gang-era. the UDA and UVF in Mid-Ulster were interchangeable. I wonder when the Mid-Ulster UDA came into being? I know the Mid-Ulster UVF was formed by Hanna in 1972 with the full backing of Gusty Spence, most likely during the latter's spell of liberation from July-November 1972. Any info on this Eddie Sayers?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 13:13, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

Yes, there's quite a bit on him - he was active in the DUP until 1977, then became prominent in the UDA. He was convicted of racketeering after being covertly filmed by the Cook Report. After serving time in prison, he worked for a legal firm on securing Adair's release from prison. Two years ago, he was in the Sunday Life after being fined for illegally dumping waste. I expect there's more - if nobody else writes an article on him first, I'll get round to it. Warofdreams talk 13:54, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

I've been doing a bit of research and I think there were two different Billy Elliots. The East Belfast brigadier was a former bodyguard of Tommy Herron (who was killed in 1973). The Billy Elliot of the Red Hand Commando was 31 years old (according to CAIN) when he was shot dead in 1995. That would have made him 9 years old when Herron died - a bit young to be a UDA leader's bodyguard. They have to be two different people!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 22:12, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

According to McDonald and Cusack the UDA one was commanding a unit as early as 1972 in East Belfast whilst the RHC one is described in their UVF book as being from Bangor so indeed they must be two different people. Keresaspa (talk) 01:43, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

The East Belfast Billy now has an article albeit small. Do McDonald and Cusack have much to say about him?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 12:05, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

Couple of bits and bobs, now added to the article, plus an extra bit from the Mad Dog book. Keresaspa (talk) 02:14, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. It looks much more complete with your additions. The problem is determining when exactly these guys became brigadiers.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:15, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

Great work on this. I'm trying to work out whether the Billy Elliot who was active in Ulster Protestant Action was the same person - he is described as being a shipyard worker, and as a (carefully worded) "Shankill Road butcher" in the 1960s. Any ideas? Warofdreams talk 22:26, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. Where did you read this about Elliot? It's definitely not the Red Hand Commando Elliot as he was born in 1964 and came from Bangor.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:00, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

It's in Ed Moloney and Andrew Pollak's Paisley - online here: [3]. Warofdreams talk 11:06, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

Eddie Sayers now has an article. Warofdreams talk 12:17, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

Very nice. Regarding Elliot, he did run for a council seat, however, I had imagined him to have been from East Belfast rather than the Shankill. The again, Shankill UDA man Davy Payne became North Belfast brigadier.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 12:49, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

Tyrie also had bases on the Shankill and East Belfast at different times so it could well be the same chap. Good work on Sayers too. Keresaspa (talk) 17:36, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

Thanks! I still can't establish whether or not he was the same Elliot, so I'm leaving it pending any further information. In the meantime, I've used other info from that book to write an article on Billy Spence, Gusty's brother, who was prominent in the UPA, then the UUP and finally the early UVF. Warofdreams talk 16:22, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

I saw the article. Nice job. I agree we should wait about adding the stuff on Elliot. I'm just not convinced it's the same guy.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 16:36, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, good article indeed. I might have some stuff to add later is he is well enough covered in the sources. Keresaspa (talk) 16:27, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

More strange characters

Have you ever heard of LVF leader Robin King who was born Catholic? I believe he succeeded Mark "Swinger" Fulton as LVF leader. I came across another person named as UDA brigadier: Tommy "Knuckles" Normanson. There's also Ginger Baker an early UDA member.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 13:08, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

Robin King rings a bell but I haven't heard his name in years. Baker I'm taking to be the same one that gave evidence against Ned McCreery. Normanson on the other hand is a new one on me I must admit. Keresaspa (talk) 02:21, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

King comes up in lots of Google searches, whereas Normanson is mentioned in passing in one article. Yes, Albert Ginger Baker is the guy. Oh, BTW, I really like your latest article on Dodds!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:17, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. I've finished Dodds off now as I was too tired to get to the end last night. Keresaspa (talk) 00:23, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

Have you any info on my latest UDA brigadier: Robert John "R.J". Kerr?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:38, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

Added a bit from ever-"reliable" McPhilemy. Nothing to add from McDonald & Cusack. One thing I did notice in their book however is that they state that the UDA in Mid-Ulster was a battalion rather than a brigade. This would tie in with the notion that Kerr was a commander rather than a brigadier. Do we have a definite source on a Mid-Ulster brigade as both McDonald & Cusack and Jordan & Lister state the six brigades as being those listed on the sandbox and add that only their brigadiers were on the Inner Council. I can't find the reference in Edge of the Union, other than a passing mention that the UVF was much more active in the area than the UDA, although I did just skim it. Keresaspa (talk) 23:18, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

I'm satisfied now that there was a Mid Ulster brigade. Steve Bruce is clear on this (I believe page 157 in Edge of the Union, and page 225 in Paisley: religion and politics in Northern Ireland); other sources which mention it are Malcolm Anderson and Eberhard Bort's The Irish border: history, politics, culture and Fortnight. Wood, in Crimes of loyalty (page 126) describes Sayers as "a mid-Ulster inner Council member of the UDA". Sources from the 1980s are clear that there were seven brigadiers on the inner council (plus Tyrie); by 2000, sources instead give six, not mentioning anyone from Mid Ulster. Incidentally, early 1970s sources mention 17 inner council members, not all of whom were brigadiers.Warofdreams talk 09:06, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

OK, so should I name R.J.Kerr as a Mid-Ulster UDA brigadier or just call him a UDA battalion commander? The Cassel Report calls him a local UDA commander, nothing about having been a brigadier.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 15:22, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

The only reasonably reliable source I have which calls him a brigadier is The People, so perhaps it would be best just to mention that they named him as a (by then former) brigadier? Warofdreams talk 16:17, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

Fair enough. I ask largely because we already have an article for the UDA South East Antrim Brigade and I'm wondering if the other brigades, most of which were more active than South East Antrim, might be worth having their own as well and if so the Mid-Ulster Brigade might also be worth adding for the sake of completeness. Keresaspa (talk) 22:54, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I think we should have an article on the Mid-Ulster UDA so people can see for themselves it really did exist. Membership in the Mid-Ulster UVF and UDA was fluid, unlike in Belfast, with many people like RJ Kerr working on behalf of Robin Jackson and the UVF even though he was a UDA commander.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:20, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

Having articles for each brigade would, I think, stop the main UDA article from becoming too big as there is a lot to say them. The Mid-Ulster cross-pollenation issue is also something that needs covered as you say so an article there would be worth having. Keresaspa (talk) 16:29, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

The UDAs main problem was its size which is why the brigadiers were given autonomy. One commander couldn't run the lot. I would say the Mid-Ulster UVF brigadier was one of the most powerful of all loyalist paramiltaries, so it would be safe to assume that Robin Jackson was easily among the most powerful men in all Northern Ireland. I wonder why his funeral was so private (The guests no doubt wouldn't want it known their association with him)--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:28, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

Maybe fear of reprisals but again it could be that it obviously wasn't lung cancer, as well as the fact that bigwigs were there. Maybe he's still alive for all we know :D Keresaspa (talk) 18:34, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

Yikes! And reading the article I created on him!!!!!!!! Oh, look what I did this morning: UVF Mid-Ulster Brigade. What do you think?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 13:50, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

The very thing I had in mind right there. It looks excellent actually, very comprehensive. Keresaspa (talk) 16:33, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. There needed to be a separate article on them seeing as they were practically an autonomous unit. I worked on it most of the day (WHEW!) If you can add something in the Billy Wright section go ahead. That part does need expansion as they were very active during his tenure.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 16:50, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

I might have a bit to add later but as it stands it looks top notch to me. Keresaspa (talk) 16:55, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

I'm glad you like it. I put it all together in a hurry.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:33, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

You certainly wouldn't think so :) Keresaspa (talk) 17:37, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

Thanks a million. You make me feel like my contributions to Wikipedia are worthwhile.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:41, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

Hey same goes. I was all for retiring before you talked me back in and now I'm glad you did. Keresaspa (talk) 18:05, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

It was regarding the John McMichael article. Oh, I'll bet Hanna formed the Mid-Ulster Brigade during Spence's period of freedom when he restructured the UVF. That was also when a huge cache of weapons was taken from a Lurgan TA depot (by a gang led by Robin Jackson); this happened in October 1972. I can't add it to the article on account that it's OR.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:22, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

A shame really as it sounds right to me. The UVF was heading down the river a tad until Spence came out and reorganised it and something as significant as the founding of the Mid-Ulster brigade was bound to have been under his influence. Keresaspa (talk) 18:31, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

Yes it does sound right but Tiernan states that Hanna founded it in 1972 under Spence's auspices when he was imprisoned. It would be OR to imply that it was founded during his four months of freedom. I did however, add a Taylor ref saying what Spence had done without mentioned Hanna. This way the reader can make up his or her own mind.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:52, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

Probably the best way to go in that case although I would be surprised if Spence wasn't involved. Still always good to keep the old OR business in mind. Keresaspa (talk) 17:20, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

Richard Monteith

Now here's a character who crops up at the strangest places. Apparently he was at Robin Jackson's private funeral. McPhilemy stated that Jackson's undertakers were not local men but came from miles away. Why was that do you think? Oh, go read what I've added to the Robert John Kerr article. He and not Martin O'Hagan gave Billy Wright his charming soubriquet. And wasn't Kerr's death bizarre? It's a bit odd that Kerr, Wright, and Jackson all died between November 1997 and May 1998. What major event took place in that span of time? The Good Friday Agreement. And what atrocity occurred just months later? The Omagh bombing. Hmm.....Strange, strange. Oh, Keresaspa I have a suggestion. Next time you are on a photo-taking expidition on the Shankill, why not head over to 100 Boundary Way and snap a photo of Johnny Adair's house.That would look great on his article!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 15:48, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

Montheith is as shady as they come, ditto the deaths. Shady business. And I have often thought about taking a picture of the Big Brother house but have always been put off by the fact that somebody lives there now and probably doesn't want their house all over the internet. Mind you I might do it as it would definitely add to the article. I'll see what I can do on that score but it probably won't be for a while. Keresaspa (talk) 22:56, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

Fair enough. Oh, I just nominated Robert John Kerr for a DYK. McPhilemy claimed aviation fuel was put in the gas canister. Personally I believe the allegations of McPhilemy. Three deaths in 7 months is just too coincidental for my liking. It's possible Jackson really did die of lung cancer, but why was the funeral of such a leading loyalist a private affair with undertakers from the outside. Probably because some of the people at the graveside (Monteith for example) to pay their respects didn't wish their association with him to become public knowledge. I saw something bizarre on the Internet the other day. There is an online memorial to Robin Jackson!!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:16, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

I wouldn't be surprised if McPhilemy was right in a lot of what he said but some of the people he fingered have very expensive lawyers, notably Monteith and Abernethy. Jackson's death might have been a coincidence (although again I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't) but the other two - no chance. I think I may have encountered the Robin Jackson memorial at some point. Stephen McKeag has one too somewhere. Keresaspa (talk) 16:32, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

Thank you

ever so much for your excellent additions to the Mid-Ulster Brigade article. I am sure glad you decided to stick around the project.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 10:26, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

No problemo. If you've anything to add to Ken Kerr that would be great as sources were a bit patchy on him. I also notice on YouTube that there are a few duff loyalist songs being sung by a Ken Kerr and it mentions him singing in one of the article's references but I can't be sure if they're the same person. Mind you, knowing the UDA a singing brigadier would fit right in! Keresaspa (talk) 17:18, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

Singing Brigadier LOL. Oh, Richard Jameson was a Mid-Ulster brigadier after they were officially stood down in 1996. He was shot dead by the LVF in 2000. I added him to the infobox.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:39, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

Always difficult to know who the UVF brigadiers were as they didn't advertise it like their UDA counterparts. For instance if you look at the 1997 edition of Cusack and McDonald's UVF book Robin Jackson is never once mentioned by name. They refer frequently to the Jackal and we now know who they mean but his identity back then was not revealed. In their UDA book on the other hand everybody's name is plastered all over it as the UDA brigadiers all seemed to want to be wll-known. Keresaspa (talk) 18:31, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

In Dillon's Dirty War, Jackson is referred to as "Mr. A".--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:39, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

Indeed. He certainly knew how to keep a low profile did Jacko. Keresaspa (talk) 18:43, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

What a character! Have you ever seen a picture of him? Dillon says he masterminded the Miami Showband attack. I would bet anything he deliberately chose to set up the ambush at Buskhill just on account of its macabre name when spoken: Bus kill. The idea of him delivering chickens after killings....Weird and creepy. He apparently secured his own protection by storing documents regarding the illegal activities of prominent people with an unnamed friend which were to be published in a newspaper should something ever happen to him. Imagine if his death had been faked and he's still alive in Northern Ireland somewhere?!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 04:23, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure if I have seen his picutre. Maybe a blurry one but I'm not sure. Still he was definitely one of the most fearsome of the whole motley crew and the documents thing definitely sounds like something he would have done. You know when I first said he might be alive I was taking the mickey but now a little in voice in my head is saying what if?! Keresaspa (talk) 22:30, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

I think I have seen that blurry photo myself. I read somewhere that he was arrested in 1979 for his own protection. He was in custody when Weir and McCaughey were taken in for the Strathearn murder. That's why Weir only agreed to tstify against Jackson and Kerr if charges against him were dropped. The last thing he'd want would be locked up in the same prison as Jackson! Oh, I hace since added that Kerr was Jackson's lorry helper. You know, Jackson's chicken lorry provided him with a good alibi. If it were seen in an area around the time of a killing, he could always say with truth that he was delivering a load of chickens.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 06:55, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

There's a chicken shop not far from me. I never took it under my notice until recently now if I see any man in late middle age coming out of it I start thinking "hmmm, could it be?"! Keresaspa (talk) 16:33, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

Wee Robbie and Jacko have put me in the firing line

My DYK nomination has caused a wee bit of concern over here: Wikipedia:biographies of living persons/Noticeboard. Nice to see one's hard work appreciated, eh? Especially by those who know f..k all about Northern Ireland. Like a Houses of the Oireachtas report isn't a reliable source?! Jesus wept.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 16:08, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

Nothing like a bit of "sarcasim" is there? That's wny I never get involved in DYK nominations - too many little barrack room lawyers, the sort who only come on here to throw about acronyms and never do any actual article editing, getting all worked up about things they have no knowledge of. Keresaspa (talk) 22:28, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

What gets me is their profound lack of knowledge on the Troubles and Ireland in general. The Barron Report was published by the Irish Government. If that's not a reliable source then why is the US equivalent (The Warren Commission findings) being used to justify describing Lee Harvey Oswald as JFK's lone assassin despite the fact that he was never tried or convicted, never admitted to it, and the evidence against him is scant. It is also downright impossible if you study the timetable between the fatal shooting of Kennedy at 12.30pm and his subsequent shooting of the cop at 1.15 p.m, five miles away! I will never again nominate an article for DYK. What's funny is that both Weir and Robert McConnell (loyalist) were DYKs. The latter was nominated by someone else! Aother thing I love how the Assistant Director of Public Prosecutions is dismissed as just a prosector and the fact that the Lord Chief Justice of Northern Ireland Robert Lowry knew that Kerr and Jackson was involved wasn't considered pertinent?! The truth is these people have no comprehension of The Troubles, and therefore should not attempt to insult others like ourselves who manage to create stable articles on such senstive subjects without their resulting in edit-wars. If Jacko is alive and is reading all this, he's probably lapping it up.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 06:50, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

There's a certain class of person on here who never makes any edits to articles but simply exists to snipe about petty little rules. I can see why we need rules but if all you do is go around pestering peo[ple about them then for me you're adding sod all to the project. Unfortunately DYK tends to attract that sort and you're as well banging your head against a brick wall as trying to reason with them. I think in their mind the Barron Report is unreliable because they say so! Petty little men who need their bottle really. Keresaspa (talk) 16:31, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

I fully agree.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:10, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

Nice image

That's a nice photo of the John McMichael Centre. I have just added it to the Jackie McDonald article. The reason you haven't heard much from me lately is because I'm at the beach and don't have my PC with me. I'm using a public one at the momemt!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:10, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

Cheers. I was wondering where you were - I'm just glad my initial suspicion (that the no-goodniks had caused you to give up) wasn't right. I'm in the process of getting relevant images for articles and should hopefully have more to add soon. Enjoy the beach! Keresaspa (talk) 18:16, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. No, I would never let those people stop me from doing something which I enjoy. The images you take are excellent and really enhance articles. Was Jacklie McDonald around when you took the photo?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:19, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

Glad to hear it. Jackie Mac might well have been inside and a guy in an expensive looking suit did go in just before I took the shot but he was far too young to be Jackie. Keresaspa (talk) 18:25, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

A pity you couldn't get a photo of him. He's quite popular in the media and doesn't appear to mind being photographed.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:21, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

I've no idea if I've ever seen him in real life as, looking at the online pictures, he looks like most fifty-something men in Belfast! Mind you if the opportunity ever arises I will but that's not one to hold your breath for :D Keresaspa (talk) 18:40, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

He's quite nice-looking for his age and doesn't have that hard-man look that so many brigadiers have. A photo would be great.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:06, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Funnily enough that's what my ma always said about John McMichael! Keresaspa (talk) 19:02, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

I agree with your mother. I used to find McMichael attractive and charismatic.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:19, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

He sure had a presence about him. I'm not into men though :D Keresaspa (talk) 18:01, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

Who knows what his political future might have been. First Minister perhaps?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 16:37, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

One thing for sure - Johnny Adair would have been taken in hand a lot earlier if McMichael had lived. Keresaspa (talk) 17:02, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

I absolutely agree. Adair and his C Company would never have been allowed such a free hand.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:43, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

I doubt McMichael would have allowed him to be a brigadier. Keresaspa (talk) 18:48, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Nice article

That's a nice article you wrote on Crumlin Road.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:35, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. I was intending to go up there today and take some pictures to add to it but unfortunately a bit of a summer cold has me in its grip so I haven't been able to leave the house. Hopefully I'll be able to do something on that score before the week is out. Keresaspa (talk) 17:43, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

I hope you get better soon. Drink lots of pineapple juice. It helps colds.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:45, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Will do. It's the first one I've had in about three years - trust me to get it in the summer! Keresaspa (talk) 18:06, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Just like summer storms, summer colds are usually more severe than winter ones. Oh, 2 August was Jackie McDonald's birthday. I've just added it to his article.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:42, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

We should have got him a card :D Keresaspa (talk) 18:42, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

I don't have his address!!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:40, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Send it care of John McMichael Centre and he'll get it :D Keresaspa (talk) 18:18, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

It's too late now. I'll keep it in mind next time 2 August approaches!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:20, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

You better because he'll cry if he reads this! On a slightly more serious note do you know anything more about Noel Doherty? There's a lot of sources for about two years of his life but everything else is very patchy. Keresaspa (talk) 18:40, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

I only know what's in the Peter Taylor book. I seem to have seen his name spelt Docherty somewhere.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 19:07, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Yeah Taylor does spell it with a c but the other references all left it out so I went with that. I've made Noel Docherty a redirect to take account of that. He was an unusual character was Do(c)herty - the old religious fanaticism bit again. Keresaspa (talk) 19:12, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Great work on the Noel Doherty article - I had a look at sources on him before, but couldn't find enough for an article. You've done much better, and have even found out something about his later life! Warofdreams talk 09:11, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

Yes, as usual Keresaspa has done an excellent job on this article. I enjoy working with him on pages as he's not only informative, but polite and helpful as well. A true asset to Wikipedia.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 14:05, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

Ah, thank you both very much, you're a wonderful pair yourselves :) Keresaspa (talk) 18:48, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

Thank you. At least somebody appreciates me around the joint.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:14, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

Goes without saying, kid. You've done the work of ten women round these parts and it's always appreciated. Well, maybe not by blockheads but sod them! Keresaspa (talk) 18:50, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

You're very kind.

John McMichael's death

Oh what do you think about the allegations that FRU knew John McMichael was going to be hit by the IRA and let it take place to protect Stakeknife?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:56, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

I discovered this 1981 BBC interview with McMichael. He was a shrewd number, there would have been no messing about with him. Here it is:BBC interview with John McMichael, 27 April 1981--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 19:14, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

Yikes Suffolk - horrible place. I would have been glad to leave personally, although at least somebody had a bit of taste as I noticed Motorhead on the wall! The allegations about FRU might well be true as I still think there is a lot that is unknown about the whole Stakeknife palaver. Through mutual friends and relatives I vaguely knew Freddie Scappaticci and to be honest I've never been convinced he is the real deal. I don't doubt he was a grass and I don't have a clue who it really was but him being Stakeknife has never really registered with me. There's a lot there that remains hush-hush and if it included the McMichael murder I wouldn't be the least bit surprised. Keresaspa (talk)

What's ironic is that the McMichael and Billy Wright killings took place almost exactly ten years apart, the former was killed because he advocated peace, the latter because he opposed it. OH, nice new article, BTW! Down Orange Welfare....Now that was an interesting collection of people.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 06:27, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

Strange indeed - I suppose the demands had changed over that time. Down Orange Welfare were certainly a peculiar bunch, one of those minor loyalist groups that existed early in the Troubles before seemingly evaporating or something. There seems to be some conspiracy stuff about their links to the National Front but I couldn't really say any of it came from reliable sources so I had to leave it out. Keresaspa (talk) 18:18, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

I've been adding more stuff to the Billy Wright (loyalist) article. What do you think? I also added a YouTube clip that shows a lot of footage of him. Very intimidating man. Fanatical but intelligent.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:22, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

He had a bit of a Gary Oldman vibe going on, similar sort of intensity. Article looks great by the way, very complete. Keresaspa (talk) 18:36, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. Aha, you hit the nail on the head. Wright had the cool, self-possession that Lee Harvey Oswald had, without the smirkiness however. Harris Boyle was similar to Wright although not as charismatic. And Boyle also looked weirdly homicidal.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:40, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

Boyle looked to me like the sort who would probably be laughing one minute and then suddenly fly into a rage. Scary guy and no mistake. Keresaspa (talk) 18:43, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

Yes and his partner in death Wesley Somerville looked like a chainsaw-weilding maniac straight out of a horror film. Weird-looking characters. I wonder whether it was Boyle or Somerville who had pushed Travers back into line? Oh, I just started this article: Richard Jameson (loyalist). It needs a lot of work still.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 08:37, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

Very good start on Jameson though (who looks eerily like a cousin of mine). I'll see what I can add later. Keresaspa (talk) 16:15, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. I wonder if we should have an article about the Tandragee, Co. Armagh killings? Jeanne boleyn.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:32, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

I've added a few wee odds and ends about him, mostly his killing. Keresaspa (talk) 00:32, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

Your additions really improve the article. Thanks a million! Oh what do you know of UVF commander John Sinton? It was he who had reportedly ordered the murder of those tragic teenagers Andrew Robb and David McIlwaine. When I read the details of their deaths (especially the sadistic injuries inflicted upon poor David) I was physically ill and had to leave my computer. Sinton was said to have been the local UVF commander but would this mean he was the leader of the Mid-Ulster Brigade following Jameson's killing? Sinton has since died of cancer (like Jacko).--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 06:25, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

I've only ever heard Sinton described as commander in Tandragee. He might well have been Mid-Ulster chief but the sources are pretty lacking for him. Robb and McIlwaine's murders were horrific and no mistake. Rather like C Company's killing of Noel Cardwell or the Robert McCartney killing there seemed to be a tendency amongst some paramilitaries to reserve the worst brutality for their own people. Keresaspa (talk) 17:54, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

The injuries inflicted upon poor McIlwaine, who hadn't said or done anything to merit such bestiality, sounded like something from out of the pages of a Stephen King novel. The killer stuck a butcher knife deep into his eye whilst he was still alive!! Barbaric! And this happened after the signing of the Good Friday Agreement. Yes, I believe Sinton was only a local commander not the Mid-Ulster brigadier. --Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:25, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

Nasty stuff and no mistake. Cardwell was similar - he was just a big simpleton really who accidentally mentioned Adair's name to the police and ended up being tortured and left to bleed to death. Sickening times. Keresaspa (talk) 16:24, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

Speaking of sickening

I just started this article today: 2000 Tandragee killings. Feel free to edit it. It'll take me a while to complete this.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 16:26, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

Gory to say the least. I've added a quick bit about Adair's reaction. Keresaspa (talk) 23:40, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. It looks good. The LVF made a stupid blunder when they executed Richard Jameson, who was very popular and well-liked around Portadown. There was bound to be serious repercussions. Mark Swinger Fulton was totally inefficient as a leader.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:02, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

Swinger was an idiot and a stooge. Mind you once Billy Wright was out of the picture the LVF's only real leader, and only real purpose, was gone anyway. Keresaspa (talk) 22:50, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

Regarding the Tandragee killings, I believe Burcombe omitted the fact that several others were also present at the scene, although as born out by the DNA found on David McIlwaine's jacket, Brown actually carried out the murders. You'll note that Crimewatch shows a UVF man wearing a baseball cap having driven a taxi to the murder site and oversaw the whole operation. There is no way, UVF members perpetrated such an act without it having been first sanctioned at a local senior level. Otherwise, they would have been kneecapped or worse. As I said before, those poor boys died as a result of Fulton's stupidity. What were the LVF leadership thinking would happen following the execution of a man like Richard Jameson?! A man who was popular, well-respected, rich and who had attempted to rid Portadown of drug dealers! Remember Jameson's building firm was awarded lucrative government contracts to carry out work for the security forces. The UVF would never have taken such a loss lying down. Robb and McIlwaine were most likely killed for failing to provide info on Jameson's killer. McIlwaine wouldn't have known a thing, however Robb I believe did have links to the LVF, albeit not an actual member. Horrible affair. I really feel especially sorry for McIlwaine seeing as he just fell into the wrong company that night. He also received the worst treatment by the killers.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 06:50, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

The killing was really like a throwback to the Shankill Butchers and there is, like you say, no doubt that it was sanctioned at a higher level. By that point the LVF was all but done and taking out Jameson or anybody else was never going to change that. It was all such a pointless waste really. Keresaspa (talk) 00:13, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

What I don't understand is why David McIlwaine bore the brunt of their violence when he hadn't said anything against Jameson?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:42, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

Good question. Possibly there was an old grudge there or maybe he fought back? Keresaspa (talk) 18:32, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

Judging by the state of his hands, he did put up a fight. The whole crime reeks of cover-up and mystery. Such as why didn't the lads take another taxi as placnned? It's very possible they were lured to that house in Sinton Park as Robb had LVF links. But it still begs the question as to why McIlwaine was so brutaly butchered.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:55, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Great new article but watch out for deletionists

I really like your latest article on the UDA West Belfast Brigade. Be careful, though. An editor is suggesting that the UVF Mid-Ulster Brigade (see here:) Talk:UVF Mid-Ulster Brigade should be merged into the main UVF article. I cannot believe this place. How can someone suggest these brigades don't merit separate articles. After all the hours and hours of work I put into that article. For f.cks. sake. No wonder editors are leaving. Why bother taking time to write when it'll probably be for nothing. Jesus wept.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:55, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Some idiot merged a bunch of articles about the British far right that I created a while back without even bothering to seek any consensus. I subsequently reversed it but it was a bloody chore to have to go through for the sake of somebody making unilateral decisions. Merging your Mid-Ulster Brigade article into the main UVF one is a daft idea as it is so detailed that the UVF article would become ridiculously long. As you say it's no wonder editors are leaving. Keresaspa (talk) 17:32, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Happily the issue is resolved and the editor in question is now convinced that the article is a valid one on its own. Oh would you happen to know where the UVF Brigade Staff's headquarters on the Shankill, known as "the Eagle", is located? Henry McDonald says in one article it's over a pub and in another says its above a former chip shop converted into a loyalist souvenir shop.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:41, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

He didn't say the name of the pub by any chance? I know the shop in question, it's Ulster Souvenirs up near the top of the Shankill not far from the old graveyard. My only doubt about it as the location of the UVF HQ is that the guy who either runs or used to run it is a dyed in the wool Ulster nationalist (David Kerr (Northern Irish politician) in fact) and the UVF has never had any truck with that. I'm not sure if Kerr is still the proprietor but the upper floor still has the Ulster Nation flag in the window and the premises of Glenwood Publications that either used or still does produce Ulster Nation are there (again not sure if it is still publishing or not). There's a dodgy looking boozer called the Stadium Bar the next block up from there and I wouldn't be surprised if that was the place but I couldn't say for sure. Unlike the UDA the UVF tends to keep its places a bit quiet. Keresaspa (talk) 18:03, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Speaking of Shankill pubs, is the "Brown Bear" still around?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 13:02, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

Nope, the Brown Bear is long gone. According to the rumour the last owner hanged himself because of his debts. The building has long since been demolished and is just waste ground, although the last time I was on the Shankill they had put hoardings up so they might be building something on it. Who knows it might even be houses. Wouldn't it be great to live on top of something that saw so much mayhem - Amityville Horror or what?! Keresaspa (talk) 18:50, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

Imagine what its like to live at 100 Boundary Way! Oh, your input is needed regarding a title change on Talk:2000 Tandragee killings--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 11:27, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Richard Monteith again

Speaking of the Tandragee killings, guess who Brown's defence lawyer was? None other than Richard Monteith! His is one name that keeps popping up all over the place.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 11:54, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Everywhere you look there he is. When his full story finally comes out it will be mind-blowing stuff. Keresaspa (talk) 16:54, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

According to Sean McPhelimy he even attender Robin Jackson's private funeral!!!!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:24, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

True enough. He's about as shady as they come, especially the way he always seems to dodge any disciplinary proceedings. Dodgy too the way his practice has no website when even village solicitors have then now. Keresaspa (talk) 17:58, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Strange indeed.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 05:43, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

There's a Richard Monteith solicitors office on the Shankill I noticed today! Keresaspa (talk) 17:40, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

He has offices in both Belfast and Portadown.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:56, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

That's him then. I don't reckon I'll be paying him a visit though :D Keresaspa (talk) 18:07, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

I don't blame you seeing who his former clients were: Robin Jackson, Billy Wright and Stephen Brown!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:22, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

Yes, with the three amigos involved a wide berth is the only option. Keresaspa (talk) 18:35, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

To be perfectly frank, out of the three clients, I think the last one was likely the most lethal: a typical Early Grace-type sociopath. Jackson was a professional hitman, Wright a fanatic, but Brown just a killer who enjoyed killing.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:41, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

I think you're probably right actually. Brown would have killed people for fun no matter where he came from. Keresaspa (talk) 18:56, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

What sickens me is that he remained free for so long. Had those horrific murders he committed taken place in rural England rather then rural Northern Ireland, the British police would have been under maximum pressure by the public to catch the perps. Tony Blair would have denounced the crimes. In this case only local politicians spoke out. Shameful.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 19:03, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

Very true. Mind you Tony Blair was probably too busy playing messiah somewhere else to care. Keresaspa (talk) 23:06, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

Apart from Blair's silence, both David Trimble and David Ervine failed to comment on the murders when just a month before they were equally vociferous in denouncing Richard Jameson's killing! Sammy Wilson later had the temerity to reprimand David McIlwaine's father for having enlisted the aid of Sinn Fein and nationalist human rights groups in order to obtain justice for his son!!!!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 06:27, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

At the risk of editorialising Sammy Wilson is an odious little ba***rd and the archetype of everything that is wrong with the time-serving, faceless, hypocritical nobodies that dominate the political scene. Nothing that little worm says or does would surprise me. Heck he was the one who, when the DUP were at their most Protestant fundamentalist, was shown in the local tabloid running about the countryside in the nude with a woman who wasn't his wife. His time should have been up years ago and he certainly should never have got anywhere near a ministerial post. As for David Ervine saying nothing, that again points to the whole thing having the blessing of the higher up elements of the UVF. Keresaspa (talk) 16:40, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

Even Gerry Adams professed horror at the barbarity of it all.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 16:49, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

That tells you how bad it was. Keresaspa (talk) 16:51, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

Judging by the testimony of Jim Fulton and Muriel Gibson, Swinger didn't order Richard Jameson's killing. It came from one of the others in the LVF leadership.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:53, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

I reckon Swinger's leadership was never much more than nominal and that LVF groups were more or less in business for themselves by that point. Keresaspa (talk) 18:19, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

Gusty Spence

Was I ever shocked to see that he died. I wouldn't have known it had not I had his article on my watchlist.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:18, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

He's been ill for a while so I sort of saw it coming. Mind you I only heard myself this afternoon. Keresaspa (talk) 17:28, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

I didn't realise his dad had been born in England. Were grandparents Northern Irish or did his dad just emigrate to Belfast? Maybe he was a former British soldier who decided to stay on. I presume Gusty's mother was a local Belfast girl. The amount of prominent loyalists who have close connections to England is overwhelming. Billy Wright, Michael Stone, Gusty Spence, Davy Fogel....--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:59, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

According to Roy Garland Spence himself believed for years that his father had been born in a small loyalist enclave in north Belfast close to New Lodge, Belfast by the name of Tiger's Bay (possibly my least favourite part of Belfast, but that's another story) but discovered much later that he had been born in Cumbria. Garland doesn't go into great detail but mentions that Gusty Spence believed his grandfather was a transient worker so from that we must presume that the grandfather was English and moved to Belfast when Gusty's father Ned was very young. As a result Ned then presumed he was Tiger's Bay through and through rather than English born. There's no mention of where his mother was born but she is described a couple of times as a "Shankill woman" or similar terms so she must have been a local. Keresaspa (talk) 18:29, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Interesting. Oh, would you happen to know the first name and maiden name of Billy Wright's mother?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:34, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Her name proved surprisingly elusive but I finally found it in Dillon's book The Trigger Men - Sarah McKinley, a Portadown native. Actually it's a decent book and there is some good stuff about a lot of leading figures in it. I'll have to update some articles with information from it although it won't be for a while as I'm heading over to Scotland for a spell tomorrow and so will be off here for a week or so. Keresaspa (talk) 18:57, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for the info. McKinley.... I wonder if she's related to the US president William McKinley seeing as his ancestors came from Ulster? Interesting. I hope you have a good time over in Scotland, Keresaspa.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 06:25, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

McKinley from here? He'll be disappointed that he doesn't have a mural on the Shankill given Andrew Jackson and James Buchanan do! And Scotland was a blast thanks. Keresaspa (talk) 19:29, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

Marian Price

nice picture! — alf.laylah.wa.laylah (talk) 02:51, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. It's a bit basic but it'll do :) Keresaspa (talk) 03:30, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

Billy Wright article

Hi Keresaspa, I'm glad to hear you had fun in Scotland. Were you in Edinburgh (fabulous city - one of my favourites)? Oh, when you get the time could you please take a look at the Billy Wright article? I added a lot of info and made a few changes. For instance, I found a copy of the UVF statement on 2 August 1996 and it clearly reads that it was Wright and the Portadown unit that were stood down, not the entire Mid-Ulster Brigade. Wright was then expelled by the UVF.I have sldo changed several articles so that they state the Mid-Ulster Brigade was not disbanded, just the Portadown unit. What do you think of Wright's article? Does it appear to be complete? Accurate? Thanks a million.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 08:45, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

The other Dillon book I mentioned recently had a few odds and ends worth adding so I've put them in. Otherwise the article looks top class and very complete. Good work. And yup I was staying in Edinburgh which is a great city. I was also in Glasgow in for a day - it's good too but not quite Edinburgh standard. Keresaspa (talk) 23:23, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

Your additions really improve the article. Thanks ever so much. Do you get the feeling Dillon liked Wright as a person while deploring his actions? Taylor seemed to be an apologist for him as well. Walking the streets of Edinburgh is like taking a trip back to the 16th century. I kept expecting to meet Mary, Queen of Scots, Earl of Moray and John Knox! I didn't go to Glasgow, although I went to other Scottish cities as well as the Highlands which were breathtaking. I even slept one night in a castle! Is it true Wright witnessed one of his sisters being raped? I read that somewhere on Google Books. Oh another question. Which of his sisters moved to New York?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 06:08, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

On pages 36-37 of The Trigger Men Wright's sister Angela mentions the incident in passing. She doesn't give much detail but apparently when Billy was young (age not specified) their other sister Elizabeth was raped in a room by an 18 year old UDR member with Billy, who had been threatened by the rapist, standing outside. It also mentions that Angela and Elizabeth were both sexually abused in care. Interestingly Angela tells Dillon that she reckons Billy Wright might have been sexually abused too. Could explain some of his anger I suppose. And I reckon you're onto something about Dillon and Taylor as they do seem to have been impressed by Wright. Not sure which one went to New York though. As for Edinburgh, yup it's a blinding place and so historical. Calton Hill especially seems to be almost a magical place. Glasgow's OK but it's not in Edinburgh's league really.Keresaspa (talk) 16:51, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

Georg Rickhey

There still is no article for Georg Rickhey, the only redlink on the List of Nazis. Cheers.Hoops gza (talk) 23:14, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

There was until somebody speedily deleted it for some reason. I'll have a go at making a stub version now. Keresaspa (talk) 23:31, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

Done. Keresaspa (talk) 23:49, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

There is no reason why that should be deleted, it has four refs!Hoops gza (talk) 01:29, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

It was the old version that was deleted not the current one. I didn't see the old version personally but I presume there must have been something very wrong with it for it be deleted. But as it stands now there's certainly no reason for deletion as you say. Keresaspa (talk) 01:33, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

How about Eva Braun? I will add her to my list of bluelinks.Hoops gza (talk) 23:34, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Funnily enough I don't think I've seen a source for Eva Braun as a Nazi Party member. Add her to the list and we can keep looking. Keresaspa (talk) 00:37, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

When you made your list, did you already go through all of the Category:Nazis?Hoops gza (talk) 01:34, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

Whoever created the initial list (it wasn't actually me) copied it from the equivalent category on the German Wikipedia. The German category is more comprehensive than ours so everybody would be there. Having said that some names in the Nazis category on here would not make the list as they weren't members of the Nazi Party. Nikolai Yevgenyevich Markov is the most obvious one I can see as, whilst he was a supporter of Nazism and the Nazi Party, his status as a Russian would have barred him from Nazi Party membership. Similarly the Category:Nazis from outside Germany would, with one or two exceptions (e.g. Rudolf Hess), all be excluded from the list of Nazis according to the criteria specified for that list (i.e. membership of the National Socialist German Workers Party). Otherwise, as far as I'm aware, everybody is included on the list although I haven't checked in a while and it is possible on or two new articles have escaped my attention. Keresaspa (talk) 01:56, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

New article

Hi Keresaspa, Ithe other day I created a new article: 1991 Cappagh killings. I had been wishing to do an article on that attack ever since I started working on the Billy Wright page. A pity I don't know more about the details of the shootings. I reckon there was security forces involvement.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 05:32, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Good looking article. I'm busy over the weekend so I won't be able to see if I have anything to add just yet but hopefully I'll get a proper look on Sunday night. Keresaspa (talk) 19:17, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Your additions are fantastic! The section on The Committee is really interesting. Just as well Jacko didn't lead the Cappagh operation. There would have been a bloodbath. Would you say Swinger was present at Cappagh?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 06:36, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

If we're to believe Jim Sands (and that's a pretty big if) then Swinger would have had to be there. Given the way he idolised Billy Wright you would have to imagine that he had seen some pretty grim things with Wright at his side so I reckon he probably would have been even if Sands is wrong. And no doubt about Jackson - 20 people might have died if he had been in charge. Keresaspa (talk) 16:57, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Yes and the the republican backlash would have been equally dreadful. It could have led to a renewal of 1970s-style IRA bombings on a continual basis throughout Northern Ireland.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:08, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Very much so. It doesn't bare thinking about what might have went down. Keresaspa (talk) 17:29, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Billy Hanna

Would your books happen to have anything on Billy Hanna?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 15:26, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

I'm sure there will be. It looks pretty comprehensive at the minute but I'll check later in case. Incidentally the mural pictured in the article is on Carnan Street and the other end of that block is where the Shankill bombing took place. And the next block is the one where the Eagle was and the block below that has the Rex Bar. Pretty busy part of the Shankill as you can see! Keresaspa (talk) 17:04, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Hanna was a very dangerous man, more so than even Billy Wright, simply because he had the military skill to cause massive destruction and loss of life as he did in Dublin and Monaghan.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:11, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Indeed. The destruction those bombs made was immense. There's a memorial to the victims of the bombings in Dublin that I'll have to get a picture of next time I'm there (which is this week actually) and upload here. Keresaspa (talk) 17:31, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Thanks so much for your additions to the article! And the additions to the Wright page are interesting as well. Wright, Adair, Legs, that must have been one hell of a wild party. Can you imagine being invited by friends to a party and arriving at a house where the music is blaring, you find both Billy Wright and Johnny Adair inside?!!!!!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 06:39, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Apparently most of C Company was in and out of Legs' house that night so it must have been wild alright. Judging by her description Adair seemed to be a bit afraid of Wright at that point as, whilst he called him al the names under the sun, he didn't say a word to Wright's face. There again he turned against Stephen McKeag when he started to get his own following so I guess Johnny just can't share the limelight. Keresaspa (talk) 16:36, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

I wonder what would have happened had Crip McWilliams turned up on her doorstep!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 16:47, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

My latest article

I started my latest article this morning and I'm bombarded with a surfeit of info from media outlets, inquiries, etc. I am about halfway through. If you'v got the time could you please take a look at it? Thanks. Oh it's this one: 1989 Jonesborough ambush.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 16:33, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

I sure will tonight. I imagine there would be a lot of stuff available for that, so good luck wading through it! Keresaspa (talk) 16:37, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Well, how does the article look now? The way I see it, Kevin Fulton's version of events is the most spot on. I think it was originally planned to take Breen and Buchanan for a grilling, but there were a couple of state agents amongst the gunmen and terrified the cops would break down and talk under torture, they shot them dead. To countermand orders the way they did, the shooters must have been senior IRA players as well as British agents. Actually, they did Harry and Bob a favour as I don't think they'd have withstood an IRA grilling and subsequent nutting squad. It could explain why Breen waved the white handkerchief-perhaps in the hope that one of the gunmen was a state agent who would spare his life. Buchanan appeared to have been a totally honest cop, Breen is murkier, and I don't believe for one minute he had travelled through South Armagh that day unarmed. I'd bet a year off my life that he was packing and the IRA took it off him when they stole his wallet, pager and warrant card. Do you think the relevations at the Smithwick Tribunal will undermine Martin McGuiness' campaign? What's your opinion on this affair, Keresaspa?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:02, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

First of all apologies for my lack of any additions and for not getting back to you sooner. I forgot that most of the books I have dealing with the republican side were recently shifted to the loft and by the time I settled down to do this it was too late for me to go up there as I would have woke the rest of the house up. I've also been out of town again (in Dublin, so the promised pictures of the Dublin-Monaghan memorial will follow soon) so that explains the delay. The article looks excellent and I think I would go with your version too. Breen seemed as dodgy as they came really and was no doubt hoping that a mole would be in there. As for the Smithwick Tribunal and McGuinness I think he's doing a good enough job of undermining his own credibility. There was a debate of all the candidates on RTE a couple of nights ago and he was one of the two who came out of it as a loser (along with Dana Rosemary Scallon - that woman is a bloody idiot but that's another story). He took the huff in the papers the next day about trial by television because the woman chairing the debate grilled him about whether or not he had killed anybody but did he honestly expect that he could seek the office of Ireland's representative to the world and have his past just ignored? The arrogance of the man beggars belief and to an extent part of me would love to see him winning if only so as he would sod off out of my neck of the woods. And if the British government felt like adding Peter Robinson to the House of Lords and thus eliminating him too I would be doubly chuffed! For what its worth I would hope that either Michael D. Higgins (who has a good chance) or David Norris (politician) (who has no chance) gets elected as they are probably the only two I have any respect for (although having said that I have no opinion of Mary Davis (activist) as she is new to me). Keresaspa (talk) 18:56, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

I'm glad you like the article. Oh, the photos you took of the Talbot St. memorial look great. Lucky you to have been in Dublin. God, do I miss living there. Fantastic and vibrant city.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 02:39, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

I would be in Dublin every month or so. It's only about two and a half hours away on the bus and I like how it feels so different to Belfast. Funnily enough I noticed this time that the bus route passes very near Jonesborough! Keresaspa (talk) 19:12, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

Yes it does, so does the Dublin-Belfast train. You know I remember once passing the sign that said Jonesborough (which of course is the first indication one has passed over the NI border) and looking out the train window. There was this lovely, hilly country road and I clearly recall thinking how everything appears so bucolic, peaceful and orderly; hard to realise that instant bloody death from a bomb or shooting attack could suddenly transform this rural green paradise into a blood-red and charred-black hell.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 08:08, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

A lot of the rural parts here seem that way. I had a friend who lived in Loughinisland and the one time I was there it seemed like such an innocuous and sleepy little place. You sure wouldn't have thought that six people had been gunned down only a few months earlier. The city is different as a lot of Belfast is pretty chaotic anyway so you could easily imagine gunfire breaking out but in the country it seems so out of place. Keresaspa (talk) 15:39, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

And yet the countryside is where the UVF Mid-Ulster Brigade, Glenaane gang and IRA South Armagh Brigade carried out some of the most brutal, pitiless sectarian attacks: The Miami Showband massacre, Kingsmill Massacre, the O'Dowd-Reavey shootings, Darkley, Craigavon mobile shop killings, etc., etc. Omagh on the other hand had a gloomy, apocalypic atmosphere. Walking up Market Strret was like being in the Dead Zone. Depressing place, one could sense right away something horrible had taken place there. I went to Omagh in 2001-just three years after the bombing.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 05:56, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

I've never been to Omagh personally. Being a non-driver I don't tend to roam too far and some of the places I've visited here have been terribly underwhelming (Lisburn for example - what a dump). Bangor and Downpatrick both have their moments and I like shopping in Newtownabbey but other than that Belfast leads the way in NI by some distance. Keresaspa (talk) 16:28, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

You won't believe this, but back in early 1982 my boyfriend and I walked from Dundalk across the border to South Armagh where we thumbed a lift to Newry. There was a bomb scare on the main Dundalk-Newry Road so we took a detour on a cattle path. We passed houses where scores of IRA supporters shouted out obscenities and brazen propositions to me! What an experience. My boyfriend and I are lucky we didn't found ourselves in blue boiler suits!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 16:45, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

Cripes, taking your lives in your hands or what?! Newry still gives me the creeps to this day to be honest and I hate even passing through it on the bus. Keresaspa (talk) 16:50, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

I know. My friend, Sean from The Markets freaked out when we told him. He said we could have been grabbed by an IRA nutting squad (thinking we were spies) or a loyalist death squad. He said most attacks take place just north of the border. Speaking of Newry, our Chief Superintendent Breen was inspector at Newry station in the 1970s. I wonder if he was on duty when the Miami Showband killings occured. This story is going to damage a lot of careers. My God, talk about vengeance from the grave. I'm sure Officers Breen and Buchanan are laughing in their graves, especially when Marty is called to testify.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 16:56, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

McGuinness is slippery than an eel and I don't doubt he'll worm his way out of it somehow. The top brass here always get away with things - witness Robinson's sleaze and that of his wife going unpunished. Some low levels will probably get it in the neck but I fear Martin will go on. Still the most recent opinion polls suggest his Presidency dream will have to be put to bed. Keresaspa (talk) 17:24, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

Och the poor wee thing. Shall we sing him a lullaby or two?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:35, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

"Cheerio cheerio cheerio" might be appropriate! Keresaspa (talk) 17:54, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

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