User talk:Derala

Kukishin Edit

Please read the content of the Kukishin Article before changing anything. The "Nine-demons" issue is discussed there, and explains why this is not the proper translation of the name- but a modern mistake due to the Chinese characters being codified. Mekugi (talk) 02:01, 24 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I suggest you Google or Yahoo search "School of the nine demon gods."

The "Nine Spirit School" or whatever you called it before is not associated with Bujinkan Dojo. The correct translation for the school, is "School of the nine demon gods."

Hi again!

This article is not only about "The Bujinkan". The correct translation of the name, unfortunately, is not "Nine Demon Gods". Please make sure to read the page, and the references. There is no need for me to Google anything because I have the source material, whereas what you find online is mostly unreliable. Your direct translation of the kanji as it exists today, is in error, unfortunately.

Mekugi (talk) 02:01, 24 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As a favor, I am going to post the name and how the "demon" reference came about here:

九 "Ku" stands for “nine" in Japanese. 鬼 "Ki" as seen on the far left is actually an incorrect kanji for the name. It is supposed to be a kanji meaning "Kami" or god but it is now-long obsolete (compare above). This is because over the years the older character became lost due to the need to simplify/unify the Chinese Characters used in Japanese writing. So, the similar character of 鬼 (oni or demon) is used in its stead. This inadvertently changes the meaning of the name to modern readers, who rightly believe that it reads "Nine Demons;" yet in fact the character was originally pronounced as "Oni-gami"(holy spirit) as opposed to "Oni" (evil spirits). The name "Ku-ki" is therefore actually "Ku-kami" yet, it has been customarily pronounced as "Kuki" since the Edo period.[3] 神 "Shin" or "kami" means god or spirit- the English interpretation of "spirit" works better as "Nine Gods God School" sounds redundant and creates problems in comprehension. 流 "Ryū" transliterates originally as "flow," however when related with the transmission of traditions as martial arts and appended to the name of a style or system, it means "school."[5][6] Mekugi (talk) 02:03, 24 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Of course the article is not about specifically Bujinkan it does reference former students that started their own Dojos. While the translation is correct it is not correct when specifically referring to the schools of ninjustu. Hatsumi is the 28th Soke of the school and his translation has to be taken in consideration. Which is School of the Nine Demon Gods.

There is no such school called "The Nine Spirit School." By source material you mean Soke Hatsumi directly referring to the school he is in charge of and recognized by the Japanese Government as the "Nine Spirit School?"

No I think your wrong.

Thinking and knowing are two different things. :) The content does not mix with the translation. If you want to add content about the Bujinkan, go to the Happo Biken Kukishin Ryu article. I don't want to ask for mediation on this, but I will if I have no choice. I would ask you to verify your translation in a *reliable*, *scholarly* resource (such as Kukishinden Zensho, that has the same translation as I do), other than something that you saw on the internet or read in a book that has no scholastic base.

Mekugi (talk) 03:09, 26 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

So multiple websites run by legitimate students of Soke Hatsumi have no base? Try again. I am willing to work with you if you edit the article to say that there is no actual school called the Nine Gods Spirit School. You also can go ahead and acknowledge in the article that when referring to the actual School the traditional name is "School of the Nine Demon gods" to this day. But the book translation and what the Soke of the school refer to it are apples and oranges. That is my offer.

Okay! I have requested assistance. I am truly sorry that you cannot see things differently. Just for your information: the meaning of the name and the way the Kanji is written was explained by Takamatsu sensei in the way I have it on the page (Nine Gods-Spirit). Part of his explanation was written in Kukishinden Zensho, and he was quoted in other source materials.

It's unfortunate that you won't go to great lengths to conduct some investigative research or even visit a Bujinkan Dojo and ask a Shihan what the school is directly referred to as. Really it is not all that difficult. If that was certainly true the way Takamatsu sesei wanted the school to be pronounced you would have said that in the first place, not wait until now....

http://www.budotaijutsu.co.uk/budo_taijutsu/kukishinden_ryu.html http://www.birminghamninpo.org.uk/articles/the-nine-rya-ha.html http://www.hemelbudo.org.uk/what.htm http://www.kbninjutsu.com/ninjutsu.html http://www.bujinkangreece.com/ryuha/kuki.html http://www.hanako.co.uk/Buj-info/Bujinkan.htm http://www.ninjutsu.com/kukishindenryu.shtml

Please read here (carefully):

http://www.kutaki.org/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?post_id=38933

You should pick up that edition of Sanmyaku. It was an official publication of the Bujinkan. There are many, many people within the Bujinkan that know the translation I have given and its meaning, and it seems that it includes Mr. Hatsumi. :-) I know it's complicated, but please try to understand what I am saying in the article and what it is trying to do. I have a few friends that are members of the Bujinkan, some that are very high ranking. I have even taken people to visit the Bujinden (hombu for them) just outside Tokyo and have met Mr. Hatsumi personally (during the tea break and calligraphy session). I have no reason to visit any of the Shihan, all of which are in Tokyo. This is because I live near Nagoya and study Kukishinden Tenshin Hyoho (The Kuki family line) and there is no reason to. Nothing personal, but I don't have the time, the will or any reason to do it; so it's a moot point.

Please take care to notice that on pages you referenced they have "Happo Hiken" in the name. This is because this is a branch of the main school. They can call themselves whatever they want! There is a Happo Hiken (Biken) article on Wikipedia. Please make sure to check it out!

Also, you may not be aware of Wikipedia guidelines, please see here: http://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Edit_war

Let's stop this edit war. I have posted a message at the Kukishin Ryu article as well.

Mekugi (talk) 13:19, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You have met Soke Hatsumi thats impressive, well my instructor and his senior student trained with him a little over a year ago in Japan. I don't blame you for not knowing about the higher level spiritual stuff of the Bujinkan or what it actually entails. I see you haven't edited the article to say that there is no actual school named the "Nine god spirit school" but the proper traditional ninjutsu name is "School of the Nine Demon gods." I don't think I am being unreasonable. I agree we should stop this edit warring I just want the correct information to be available to the public.

I understand that you want the correct information available to the public, but I humbly ask that you please to compromise your beliefs and try to realize that the information you have is in error. I am sorry that you cannot believe/understand that Kukishin Ryu is not a school of ninjutsu, but actually a koryu bujutsu. This is not a matter of having "higher level of understanding" but one of simple, academic principle. Again, I am truly sorry that you feel the way you do, and I wish I could help you further.

Mekugi (talk) 02:13, 1 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Kukishin Edit Part II

Since I cannot control the way you edit and you apperantly refuse to follow guidelines, I have edited the page in a way that may suit you until we can get a moderator to review it. However, I am going to ask for you to provide a credible, written resource for the added content. It's my hope that you reach a better understanding of what is being written on the Kukishin ryu article and you will bend your beliefs to reason with the help of others. Thanks!

Mekugi (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 13:03, 5 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Your condescending attitude is not needed. You have shown no credibility that Soke Hatsumi the Soke of the "School of the nine demon gods" or anyone else for that matter has referred to Kukishinden Ryû as the "nine gods spirit school."

You have simply applied your specific language translation. Which I have even said was correct. But traditionally the school is still to this very day called "the school of the nine demon gods." There is no school called "the nine gods spirit school." I have even said your translation is fine as long as you add that that the true name of the School is "the school of the nine demon gods" which is very reasonable.

I have provided web links of official Bujinkan Schools sanctioned by Hatsumi Soke and it is the fault of nobodies but your own for not following them up. Have you emailed or called any of the instructors wait to verify information? No you haven't, so don't leave messages about logic when a logical person would have tried to use the oppositions information to verify your own known facts. I know I'm right thats why you haven't done it.

Complaining about following guild lines goes both ways had you just simply followed my request to use the proper traditional school name this would not have happened. In reality I have only changed that phrase in the whole article and not messed with the rest.