User talk:Dario Sunseri

Minebuster and Wild Beast

Where on PTC's website did you see a statement that these coasters were built by PTC?—JlACEer (talk) 01:34, 6 September 2018 (UTC)

On PTC's website, there is a list of roller coasters that they have manufactured. Just Ctrl + F "Canada" and you'll find both Minebuster and Beast.

Another note: I am a ride operator for Wild Beast and I have gone through the mechanic manual for the ride. It is considered a replica of Wildcat that was in fact constructed by PTC. If you would like, I could collect some pictures of it. Dario Sunseri (talk) 13:08, 6 September 2018 (UTC)

It is a replica of PTC's Wildcat, sure, but that doesn't mean the replica was built by PTC. Curtis Summers is credited as the designer in every reliable source I've come across. Also back during this time, Taft had an in-house construction crew that traveled to each of their parks. They probably utilized local companies and contractors to physically help construct each of Summers' designs.

As for Minebuster, your employer disagrees with you, by the way. The manufacturer is credited to Curtis Summers on the park's very own website. Keep in mind that PTC manufactured the trains and contributed to a lot of the early launch systems being used on wooden coasters of this era. Because of their contributions in both aspects, it wouldn't be surprising to find operating manuals for these rides to have been published by PTC. That just meant Charles Dinn and Curtis Summers had a close relationship with PTC, which goes back to the creation of The Beast at Kings Island, where they had the opportunity to work with John C. Allen (a legendary PTC designer).

One last thing... Wikipedia relies on published material from reliable sources. See WP:OR and WP:V for more information on why personal speculation and personal research would not be permitted. --GoneIn60 (talk) 15:13, 6 September 2018 (UTC)

Sure, my employer may disagree, but they also spelled his name "Curtis T. Summers" instead of Curtis D. Summers. Regardless, on the plaque in the station of Minebuster he is credited as the manufacturer of the coaster. My apologies, you were correct.

However, for Wild Beast, Wonderland doesn't even list the manufacturer on their website. I've been doing some research today as well and other than RCDB, I cannot find one source that actually says who the manufacturer is. Because of this, I really don't see how one can argue that the plaque in the station and mechanic reference manuals are incorrect and inaccurate especially when the Government of Ontario certified it. If you could link the sources you were speaking about, I would love to look them over. Dario Sunseri (talk) 15:27, 6 September 2018 (UTC)

What is the exact wording on the plaque for Wild Beast? As for the "mechanic reference manuals" (as I explained above) it makes perfect sense that those were published by PTC. Is there a sentence in there that claims PTC is the ride manufacturer? (I emphasize ride here, because being the manufacturer of the controls/launching system is not the same thing). --GoneIn60 (talk) 17:37, 6 September 2018 (UTC)

The page that you referenced on my talk page is not a list of PTC coasters, it is a list of coasters that are running PTC trains. The coasters listed on that page were built by Bill Cobb, CCI, Gravity Group, Intamin, Dinn & Summers, KECO, S&S, as well as PTC. The information that we have came from interviews with Curtis D. Summers when he was still alive. Many of us who have researched this went into the PTC archives as well as the Curtis Summers archives. We know what coasters were built by whom from that research. Wilde Beast (as it was originally called) and Minebuster are in the Summers' archives. Those coasters are not in the PTC list of projects. The two best sources are articles from RollerCoaster magazine and First Drop. First Drop did an article in 2004 on PTC's 100th anniversary, RollerCoaster in 2009 for the 105th anniversary. Neither of these publications are online, but you can purchase back issues of both.—JlACEer (talk) 18:52, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

Morning guys, did a little bit of research and I still can't find anything saying that Summers is the manufacturer. If you could send me some sources other than RCDB to look at, I'll change my mind. But I still don't really see it fit to simply say the plaque in the station is incorrect.

I know Wikipedia doesn't really allow for personal research but the wording on the front of the mechanic reference manual it says "Wild Beast - PTC Coaster 'Wild Cat'". Hopefully we can find some sources that claim that Summers is the manufacturer of the Coaster, but if we cannot, I still believe it is just to believe that Beast is constructed by PTC as per the plaque in the station.

What I will say, however, is I was incorrect about Minebuster. I understand now that it was in fact constructed by Summers (or at least was credited for it on the plaque in the station). If we could find any substantial proof that it was constructed by Summers and not PTC, I will be happy to admit it. Dario Sunseri (talk) 12:49, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

References below

I also agree with GoneIn60, PTC would have provided all the hardware — trains, brakes, control system, queue gates, etc. It's no surprise that the operating manual for those systems is from PTC. —JlACEer (talk) 13:25, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

Comment – Thanks JlACEer for providing a few sources. Dario Sunseri, you still haven't answered the question I asked above. What is the exact wording on the plaque in Wild Beast's station? Also, please keep in mind that even when personal research may seem to contradict what secondary sources are saying, that research cannot override them on its own. The claim must be countered by another reliable source, followed by a discussion to determine how to handle conflicting claims. --GoneIn60 (talk) 14:11, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

Thank you for some more sources, the last one seems to be the most credible. It states that it was designed by Summers and PTC, whereas Minebuster was solely Summers. And GoneIn60 to answer your question, the wording is "Manufacturer: Philadelphia Toboggan Co.". Minebuster's plaque says "Manufacturer: Curtis Summers". I still think PTC has a substantial role in the manufacturing of this coaster and deserves to be on the list. Dario Sunseri (talk) 15:35, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

PTC was out of the coaster-building business by this time. There are many, many published sources that confirm this — publications that include interviews with Curtis Summers and John Allen who retired as president of PTC. You can't just go by one publication that happens to be on Google. Herbert Schmeck is the one who designed the original Wildcat and the design of Wild Beast was loosely based on that coaster, but that does not make it a PTC design.—JlACEer (talk) 03:59, 12 September 2018 (UTC)

It is concerning that there is a plaque in the ride station of Wild Beast that says "Manufacturer: Philadelphia Toboggan Co.", but this alone could be taken out of context. Is this plaque facing guests waiting in line, or is it hidden and only viewable by ride operators? This is important, because if it's the latter, then that could mean that the controls/launching system is what that plaque is talking about. If it's prominently on display facing guests, then that's a completely different scenario that would imply the entire ride is manufactured by PTC. --GoneIn60 (talk) 04:37, 12 September 2018 (UTC)

There's the thing though. The plaque is positioned in front of guests who are on the train in the station. Even though PTC was reportedly out of the business at that time, it seems strange that all the references at the ride claim that it was manufactured by them. In no doubt do I believe that Summers played an integral role for the making of this coaster, but I still believe PTC had an integral role. Take a look at the plaque I cited below. Dario Sunseri (talk) 13:48, 12 September 2018 (UTC)

That's a decent reference in favor of PTC, I have to admit. Apparently, that plaque was installed while the park was owned and operated by Paramount Parks. If the other plaque at Minebuster was from the same time period, then it would be hard to simply say that perhaps they made an error, since they got the other one right. This is worth taking into consideration, though I'm not sure it overrides what secondary sources have published. JlACEer, thoughts?

The problem with the plaque is that it makes it hard to find conclusive evidence, considering all the cites that say differently than the plaque. Even if we were to find one source in favour of PTC, I still wouldn't feel comfortable calling it a PTC coaster. And the other way around, with this plaque and all the material in the op booth, I don't feel comfortable calling it manufactured by Summers either. It's a weird situation and lack of strong information. Dario Sunseri (talk) 12:27, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

References

Sorry, me again. I just realized the argument of saying that PTC isn't the manufacturer because they stopped making coasters at that time doesn't make sense. The Ghoster Coaster was constructed by PTC and is not doubted by anyone and it was constructed at the same time as Beast. Just thought that we should keep that in mind while we look for more research. Dario Sunseri (talk) 12:35, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

Ghoster Coaster wasn't built by PTC either. When John Allen retired as president in 1976, the company stopped designing roller coasters but continued to work on coaster projects until 1979 when it exited the coaster-construction industry for good. This is well-documented in several books by respected amusement park historians, several of whom I know personally. They researched the PTC archives in person. If you are looking at the RCDB listing don't confuse "make" with built by. That is kind of an anomaly with RCDB.com, "make" doesn't necessarily mean that is the builder. There are some CCI coasters that are listed strangely too.—JlACEer (talk) 19:09, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

Correct. The manufacturer can be any entity that coordinated the construction, which often consisted of subcontracting locally hired help for a healthy portion of the project (particularly common in the 70s and 80s). Sources tend to give credit to those at the helm. I have to admit it is odd, however, that we list Curtis D. Summers as a manufacturer. Wouldn't it have technically been Curtis D. Summers, Inc., the name of his engineering firm before it joined forces with Dinn Corporation in 1985? Doesn't seem quite right listing an individual. --GoneIn60 (talk) 20:35, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

The manufacturer is typically listed as Taft. Taft subcontracted all the work for construction of the entire park, and Summers was the project manager. As mentioned on the pages for Wild Beast and Mighty Canadian Minebuster, it is very likely that the crew that Summers hired were experienced coaster builders who used to work for PTC.—JlACEer (talk) 21:00, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

Should we delete the entry for Ghoster Coaster on the list of PTC Coasters Wiki page then? And it just upsets me how there is so much conflicting information about this coaster, but if both of you are wholeheartedly set on this coaster not being constructed by PTC then I'll take your words for it since I'm still very new to this field. Thanks to you both for looking deeper into this! Dario Sunseri (talk) 13:45, 20 September 2018 (UTC)

Done, and Duane has removed it from RCDB.com as well.—JlACEer (talk) 13:53, 20 September 2018 (UTC)

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