User talk:DankJae/Archives/2024/July

Llinos Medi

I really don't know why you're removing her 'known as' name. She's not commonly known as Llinos Huws, so it makes absolute sense to add something along the lines of "known as Llinos Medi". You quote MOS:FULLNAME in your edit summary, but immediately below that is MOS:BIOALTNAME. Sionk (talk) 20:41, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

@Sionk, MOS:BIOALTNAME is for alternative full names, those examples listed there are drasitically different compared to using Llinos Medi's other name which is cited under MOS:FULLNAME. Fidel Castro is a clear comparable example as mentioned there. Do we add "known professionally as Vaughan Gething"?? or for Boris Johnson? no DankJae 20:47, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

If you believe she is not known as LLinos Medi, you should raise a discussion on the Talk page - someone else (not me) moved the page to Llinos Medi ...so there's at least two of us who think that is her common name. Sionk (talk) 20:50, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

@Sionk, the title doesn't need to match the lead per the MOS here. They both follow different policies. Once again MOS:FULLNAME makes it very clear, Fidel Castro and the full name in the article's lead and intentionally not matching. I am not saying she is not called "Llinos Medi", but considering that is a shortened name of her full name it is not needed in the lead.

Also meant to link to Rebecca Evans (politician) not Griffiths.

However, I will start a discussion. DankJae 20:54, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Fidel Castro isn't known as "Fidel Alejandro", Rebecca Evans isn't known as "Rebecca Mary". Clearly I don't understand the naming conventions of North Wales (but then probably the casual reader doesn't either). Sionk (talk) 21:00, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

@Sionk, I am not understanding your point. All full names are treated as full names, and all short names are treated as short names regardless to which one of the names the subject or media selected among them.

If anything, Llinos Medi is even more obvious to readers as they remain in order. The average reader would read "Fidel Alejandro Castro Ruz" as "Fidel Alejandro" first over "Fidel Castro" as the former is the first and second name, while the latter skips a name.

Nonetheless, both Fidel Castro and Llinos Medi are just shortened versions of the full names used for consiseness in the title, but per MOS, leads should have their full name not also shortened names from the full name. Unless the shortened name is drastically different or unrelated to their full name, and at that point it is a nickname. DankJae 21:07, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Cadw site names

Hey Jae!

First, I've just noticed the dragon icon on your user page, which is absolutely adorable. The reason I'm actually here, though, is to discuss Cadw's shift to using the Welsh name only to some of its sites – you might have seen my edit at Criccieth Castle last night.

Do you think Cadw are presenting the Welsh names as new English names, or just shifting to using the Welsh name in all cases? In either case, the shift is very new so we should be careful about presenting the Welsh names as also being alternative English names. Cadw hasn't even updated a lot of its own signage or publications yet – if you want to buy the Caernarfon guidebook, for example, it's still Caernarfon Castle, and the new version was only published last year.

Also, I'm sure you're already aware, but Cadw only seem to be changing how they refer to sites where the English and Welsh names are similar. Beaumaris Castle is still that in English for example, not Castell Biwmares. A.D.Hope (talk) 15:08, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

@A.D.Hope I believe Cadw is in some form adopting the Welsh Language Commissioner's approach to standard place-names, as echoed by a minister and their guidelines. The gov made a vague commitment to protect Welsh place-names and Cadw is gov-run so maybe linked to that.

So place-names already using the Welsh name, or the English is close enough (but 1/2 letters) are recommended to just use the Welsh name. So "Conwy" and "Caernarfon" are the same already, so simple switch, and "Cricieth" is one-c removed, hence those changed. But names spelt more differently or they're "established variants" (*cough* original) are said to not be changed (for now), hence Biwmares/Beaumaris and Y Fflint/Flint remaining.

This change from Cadw is recent, Wayback indicates Caernarfon Castle (March) became Castell Caernarfon in April based on url. So that guidebook probably pre-dates the change/decision and the next one may likely have Castell. Yes, speculation a little, saw a recent reddit post which alerted me on this.

Cadw's website, now with the Welsh names, are likely the "official/main website" for these castles. So shows that this is somewhat intentional as being very public, and as they use it as the name in English, it should be regarded as an alternative name of significance at least, based on the new page itself and Cadw acting as the official body for most. But yes, Cadw has been very quiet about it. Am I early? Maybe or maybe not. But this seems like a very (slow) back-door change without the controversy because no one noticed it as much.

Eventually, when it is noticed, there likely would be battles on either rejecting the Welsh name or prioritising it, as common on Welsh articles now. So thought setting up a neutral alternative, bolding but remaining as "Welsh" and in parenthesis, which can act as a stable alternative beforehand. These re-names do personally irritate me, but such decisions have to at least be recognised here IMO. Of course in all instances, these Welsh names are not the common names yet. DankJae 17:14, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

@A.D.Hope, also I would like to note concerning Criccieth Castle, is that I followed MOS:BOLDALTNAMES. Regarding Castell Cricieth as just an alternative name, not the common name at all. (Like Conway to Conwy) If it were the common name, it be the title and first name used in the lead. I do believe that Cadw's use and of such formality justifies regarding it as an alternative name in English so therefore should be in bold. DankJae 17:21, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

I am aware of the background, but thanks for laying it out clearly. I suppose the question is whether we treat 'Castell Cricieth' as a significant alternative English-language name, which means bold, or continue to treat it as the Welsh-language name (or one of, I think 'Castell Criccieth is used sometimes), which means italics. A.D.Hope (talk) 17:58, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

@A.D.Hope, I find it as significant if the actual operator is using it. If it was some local publisher, the local (community) council or politicians, then yes I would argue it shouldn't be given weight. But Cadw is in some way the actual owner/manager of the place, so their use matters. My edit maintained recognising it as Welsh, only boldened the Welsh term (if it is that). I still do believe that the name will be boldened eventually.

Noticed your edit at Criccieth. There is mixed use in both languages and that article's etymology section needs a lot more expansion. However, the Welsh Language Commissioner recommended name is "Cricieth", and Cadw uses it in "Castell Cricieth" but stated to be located in Criccieth, so they now recognise only the castle with "Cricieth" in its "official" name. DankJae 18:39, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

I don't want to read the MOS in a pedantic way, but it strikes me that a name can either be an alternative English name or non-English name. If a non-English name becomes the common then it becomes an English name, if you see what I mean. Maybe it would be worth rephrasing the opening sentence something like "Criccieth Castle, known in Welsh and marketed as Castell Cricieth (pronunciation)...". I'm happy to interpret 'significant' in the MOS to mean in this case 'used by the management of the castle in English sources' rather than 'in common use in English'.

I'm wary of wading in at Criccieth as I can't find good sources for the etymology, I just thought it worth correcting what seems to be the mistaken impression that 'Criccieth' is the English and 'Cricieth' the Welsh spelling of the name. A.D.Hope (talk) 18:52, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

@A.D.Hope, WP:COMMONNAME only relates to article titles.

MOS:ALTNAME says

These may include alternative spellings, longer or shorter forms, historical names, and significant names in other languages.

Less common alternative names can be added as long as not too many and are related to the subject. It is up to editors. If the name was "common" it would be the title. If you're referring to "common" to instead mean "significant use in English", once again Cadw's use is significant in my opinion, if it were some lone book or unofficial website then it wouldn't be an as significant alternative name.

MOS:LEADLANG only advocates against bolding foreign names if they're not normally used, so before the Cadw change bolding it was incorrect. But as Cadw now use the name in English, and is the main contemporary source for these castles then it is at least somewhat normal use considering how limited the scope of the castle is and important their use is. At least in IMO. Basically I'd argue that the new "official name" should at least be in bold.

Understand restraint at Criccieth but I believe it is incomplete. The talk discussion is over a decade old. DankJae 19:23, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I'm using 'common' to mean 'significant use in English'. I wish Wikipedia terminology was easier to navigage sometimes.

'Castell Cricieth' isn't in significant use in English, but I can accept that it's 'significant' for the purposes of MOS:BOLDSYN by virtue of Cadw using it. If we're going down that route, however, then we should recognise that 'Castell Cricieth' is now a name for the castle in English rather than a non-English name, as if it were simply the latter than italics would be enough according to MOS:LEADLANG. A.D.Hope (talk) 19:32, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

@A.D.Hope, the issue of whether to bold and whether it is Welsh are two separate issues I think. Considering how recent and silent this change is opted to just bold it, keeping everything else the same.

Whether it remains Welsh is complex, I have seen editors tag Ceredigion as Welsh so takes a long time. There is no clear cut when any foreign name ceases to be foreign, I guess depends how much it is used. But because this change is recent and low-profile for now, so believe for now, until it becomes even more popular, to remain labelling it as Welsh, but bolding it to indicate it is simply used in English but for now only in minor official use. Should more sources follow Cadw, I had planned to move it to "or/also known as Castell Cricieth" eventually omitting a mention it is Welsh when that happens. DankJae 19:53, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

I think they're two aspects of the same issue. If I understand the MOS correctly, only significant English names should be in bold in the lead. Therefore, if we bold 'Castell Cricieth' we're asserting that it's a significant English name.

I'm fine doing that for the reasons I've stated above, but it means that we don't need to specifically mark out the name as Welsh. However, because the change is recent and 'Castell Cricieth' is more commonly associated with the Welsh language, the wording I suggested above could be a good compromise, for Criccieth and the other Cadw sites affected by the change in terminology. A.D.Hope (talk) 20:26, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

@A.D.Hope, MOS:ALTNAMES states "significant names in other languages", and MOS:BOLDALTNAMES states we can bold them if significant. MOS:LEADLANG cuts off bolding on foreign names not used normally, not prohibiting bolding all foreign names.

Not sure why my format isn't better. Your proposal makes the name too prominent IMO especially how recent it is and how you had argued it is not as common. Also leads the impression it was only for marketing, are we stating Cadw is doing this for marketing? If anything it should be "officially" however in lack of an actual announcement we cannot state that just indirectly indicate that Cadw use it in English by bolding. Using bold and the {{lang-cy}} aren't incompatible, you can bold, italic and tag them. DankJae 20:34, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

I'd read 'significant names' in BOLDALTNAMES as 'significant English names', because the convention (maybe it's in the MOS somewhere) is to put non-English names in brackets, italicised, with a IPA respelling and an audio pronunciation where possible.

Cadw is marketing the castle in English as 'Castell Cricieth', so I think it's an accurate enough statement. I think most official sources in English still use 'Cricieth Castle', so I'd hesitate to state that 'Castell Cricieth' is the official name. We can state that Cadw use the name in English, because they provably do. A.D.Hope (talk) 20:53, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

@A.D.Hope, as Cadw in many cases maintain the castle, I'd argue that they're the official operator. Their signs and branding are used in the castles. However, once again my wording avoids that, maybe like Cadw themselves, I just subtly make the Welsh name more prominent as have Cadw.

Once again, BOLDALTNAMES links the term "alternative names" to ALTNAMES which includes "significant names in other languages" among others.

I'll raise at the project, because this is deadlock. DankJae 21:08, 9 July 2024 (UTC)