User talk:Cottonshirt

(Noting that you're not new, but surprised given your useful contribs that you haven't been welcomed yet, so here goes :))

Welcome!

Hello, Cottonshirt, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful:

I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your messages on discussion pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically insert your username and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or ask your question on this page and then place {{helpme}} before the question. Again, welcome! Orderinchaos 18:21, 28 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

North Province

Just noting that I reverted the five good-faith edits reassigning "North Province" to "North Metropolitan". The former two-member North Province, which existed from 1894 until the Acts Amendment (Electoral Reform) Act 1987 was passed, was located in the north of the State (Kimberley region) and had nothing to do with the later 7-member metropolitan region in the northern suburbs of Perth which was a product of that legislation. The old North Province (along with several others) became part of the Mining and Pastoral region. Orderinchaos 18:21, 28 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Help Please

{{helpme}} I am trying to create the biography article for a person who comes from the English county of Oxfordshire (which some people call just Oxford or Oxon) but the category People from Oxford redirects to a page reserved exclusively for people from or pertaining to the University of Oxford. There is no page for either of the categories People from Oxon or People from Oxfordshire and I find this almost impossible to believe. It seems a bit excessive to create a category for a single person. Suggestions appreciated.

Note: Link to page with instructions on creating a new category. Cool! Cottonshirt (talk) 06:54, 29 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I found a Category:People from Oxfordshire if that helps. It seems to have more specific subcategories for towns as well if you have more detailed info. Orderinchaos 07:14, 29 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, Cottonshirt. You have new messages at Uwishiwazjohng's talk page.
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Smallman12q

Hello, Cottonshirt. You have new messages at Smallman12q's talk page.
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Hello, Fellow de-orphaner!

I noticed you've been helping out trying to de-orphan the vast number of orphaned articles out there, and I'd like to say that we really appreciate your help. You might want to consider adding your name to the list of participants in WikiProject Orphanage, the WikiProject concerned with de-orphaning articles.

Here are some things you might want to do to get even more involved:

Read the WikiProject Orphanage page, especially the section marked "Criteria". The page contains a lot of good advice on-deorphaning, as well as the standard procedures we are using to de-orphan articles.
Look at {{orphan}},{{do-attempt}}, and {{articleissues}} closely and make sure you know how to use them correctly. (It's not difficult, but it is easy to screw up. Trust me, I have.)
Keep de-orphaning! Category:Orphaned articles contains all orphaned articles organized by month. Right now we're just trying to keep up with all the new orphans being created, so please start with the current monthly category. Once those are cleared out, we can start working on the backlog in reverse-chronological order.

You may have already known all of this, in which case sorry for the spam! Either way, Let me know if there's any way I can help you contribute more to the project. Thanks again!{{Smallman12q (talk) 15:58, 31 January 2009 (UTC)}}[reply]

Hello, Cottonshirt. You have new messages at Talk:Fofudja.
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David Ferguson (impresario) article / Abusive editing by 'uwishiwasjohng'

Cottonshirt, 'uwishiwasjohng' is back at again. Having had his Legal History section taken down out of the David Ferguson (Impresario) article, he has resorted to attacking the article through relentless editing. I posted a complaint on the Admin page for Bio of Living Persons. Hoping to have Admin and other users review as the article is being gutted. Thank you for reviewing DrJamesX (talk) 19:41, 3 February 2009 (UTC)DrJamesX[reply]

Reliable sourcing question

Cottonshirt, I have a sourcing question and that I hope you can answer. I have looked over Wikipedia sourcing rules / protocol but have not yet found anything that specifically prohibits using the sources listed below.

I've been trying to use the links at the bottom as sources to show which specific bands participated on compilations released as Rat Music for Rat People. This is part of the Wikipedia article for David Ferguson (Impresario).

These links appear completely valid yet 'DoriSmith' and 'uwishiwasjohng' have repeatedly flagged them as 'unreliable' or have removed them outright with no explanation other than that they are unreliable.

Is there a problem with using this type of 3rd party source to prove the content of an album?

       http://homepages.nyu.edu/~cch223/comps/ratmusic.html
       http://rateyourmusic.com/release/comp/various_art

DrJamesX (talk) 21:04, 11 February 2009 (UTC)DrJamesX[reply]

Euro 100 metres record

Dwain Chambers only equalled Linford Christie's record but the run was subsequently removed following a positive drugs test. Francis Obikwelu on the other hand has a perfectly good claim to the current title. I've updated the article now. Take care! Sillyfolkboy (talk) 05:42, 18 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Took some searching but this article details the annulment of the record. If you're going to put a mention of it, it's probably best to put a note saying that Christie is the British record holder, then a footnote after that; briefly describing Chambers' run and drug ban. Sillyfolkboy (talk) 12:06, 18 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That's a good point, but remember that Obikwelu had already beaten Christie's European record by the time Chambers got 9.87, so he never had that record. There seems to be a dearth of resources on the removal of the British record. I'll tell you if I find one. Cheers. Sillyfolkboy (talk) 22:46, 18 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

David Edgar

Hi, Cottonshirt. Good stuff! Hope you don't mind my efforts in editing the orthography. I noticed you using the html italic code throughout. Best just use the Wiki system of italicising (just 2 straight single apostrophes each end). I also find it helpful to have author, title, date, etc, info in the citations. I didn't have time today but will return and do more--unless you prefer I didn't. Cheers Bjenks (talk) 11:39, 21 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Good to see you getting stuck in, Cottonshirt. Keep up the good work! Sillyfolkboy (talk) 12:57, 21 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The points you make in reply seem reasonable. I'll do some homework on the WP policies and come back later. (I'm not really an old hand at this :) Bjenks (talk) 13:20, 21 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Help desk

I have another option for you at Wikipedia:Help_desk#Aligning_Text. I hope that one of these options work for what you need, hmwith τ 15:08, 22 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Frank Patterson

Well done on the ongoing re-write. RashersTierney (talk) 18:06, 22 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. Cottonshirt τ 03:45, 23 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

DYK for David Edgar (playwright)

On March 2, 2009, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article David Edgar (playwright), which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

David Edgar

It was relatively close before, looks you've pushed it over now, good work. Your suggestions sound good, I would try and get a copyfree picture if you can, as a picture of the subject of an article is probably one of the single biggest improvements one can make. i'll try and come up with some other improvements if i get time. Tom B (talk) 18:32, 3 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

HTML mark-up

Hi. Further to my basic agreement with consistency, that principle cannot extend to what you seem to be about, viz, near-total rejection of Wiki-markup in "your" contributed articles (as per your request to reedy). A relevant style guideline is Keep markup simple. You could, of course, argue that HTML is for the most part as simple for you or me to use as Wiki markup, but the overriding principle is surely the effect on the total population of editors. Having two "acceptable" standards is clearly less simple than having one. That's why the guideline accepts using HTML only for good reason--and I do not think individual style preference is sufficiently good reason. Consider also the guideline

Ordinary text should use wiki markup for emphasis and should not use  or . However, mathematical formulae often use italics, and sometimes use bold, for reasons unrelated to emphasis.

This is located in this section of the article on "How to edit a page". When such sensible guidelines exist, I would regard it as both correct and polite to abide by them. Do you not agree? You might also find it rewarding to check out Wikipedia:Ownership of articles. Cheers Bjenks (talk) 06:31, 6 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry if I offended—there was no intention to do so. 1. I chanced on reedy while validly searching for HTML guidelines and opinions. 2. Please note that you incorrectly referred Reedy to the general article Manual of Style, not to the guideline Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style. 3. I agree with the merits of co-operation, and that neither my opinion nor yours has greater weight in any Wikipedia style discussion than Wikipedia policies and guidelines. 4. I have quite well qualified interests in literature and theatre, but thanks anyway for venturing your gratuitous views about my motives. 5. I have never myself amended the mark-up style of the article in question. I see that its original version utilised Wiki markup, so someone else must have changed it to an inconsistent markup. 6. I remain receptive to your views on the substance of my references to the Wikipedia guidelines, if you get around to considering same. Bjenks (talk) 08:38, 6 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, it's all about conscientious improvement of the information. Thanks for the acknowledgment that one can have an interest in a subject without interpolation of a personal agenda via selective use of sources, etc. Where there is goodwill, differences can identified and resolved in discussion without undue friction. Cheers Bjenks (talk) 00:21, 9 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

DYK nomination of Frank Patterson

Hello! Your submission of Frank Patterson at the Did You Know nominations page has been reviewed, and there still are some issues that may need to be clarified. Please review the comment(s) underneath your nomination's entry and respond there as soon as possible. Thank you for contributing to Did You Know! ∗ \ / (⁂) 23:34, 6 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Record lists

I'd just like to say thank you for contributing the "Progression of athletics records" articles. This type of list is always very helpful and interesting! Good work. Sillyfolkboy (talk) 23:41, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

David Ferguson (impresario)

The WP:BLP, David Ferguson (impresario), has been tagged with a lot of templates by two editors who have a long history of negative edits on this article. Could you be kind enough to take a look at the text, citations, and templates and share your views? There is also a posting on the Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard about these templates. I'm writing you because you've expressed interest in this article before and I think help is needed about a NPOV. Thank you. --deb (talk) 19:58, 4 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Pan Am 103

See Talk:Pan_Am_Flight_103#Basic_Facts WhisperToMe (talk) 23:43, 10 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Talkback

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Where to go from here?

Hey there buddy, so it looks like both our respective police brutality CfR nominations have fizzled out due to the variety of proposals. I'm wondering if you'd like to sit down (so to speak) and hammer out (I'm just full of analogies) a firmer proposal. I see a multitude of options, but I would say my favored route would be to create sub-categories for the overall category, breaking it down by crime "status" - alleged, confirmed, etc. That would be a bit more incremental and perhaps cause less uproar (especially from people who want to "hold the criminals' feet to the fire," if you will). What say you? CaseyPenk (talk) 02:02, 8 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

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Teahouse talkback: you've got messages!

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List of Train Songs

Hi, Cottonshirt. I saw you added a Globalize template to the List of Train Songs. What do you think is needed to satisfy WP's guidelines? Train songs are a form almost exclusive to the U.S., Canada and Australia, because of the role of railroads in developing the geographic, commercial and social landscapes on the two continents. As a result, the train was widely romanticized through song, something that did not occur in parts of the world that were well established. I could add a couple sentences to the introduction noting this (sources are available but limited). The list itself does include train songs by European artists, but few works that are not of American origin. Canadian and Australian songs and artists are well represented. In addition, the External Links section has a link to an Australian train song website. I'd appreciate your feedback. Thanks. Allreet (talk) 16:37, 13 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think I said anything above that warranted the tone of your response. If you care to discuss that further, I would be happy to, but for now I'll mention WP:AGF as the basic issue and more specifically how editors' attitudes discourage participation. I asked a simple question in good faith and IMO received an unwarranted inquisition. Some responses to your "critique":

Contrary to your initial post, all of the material in the List of Train Songs intro is covered by scholarly sources. Individual sentences do not need separate cites; several sentences can be sourced with one cite. Furthermore, the intro does not need expanding. I would agree more could be said on the subject but believe that would warrant a separate article.

You mis-read my third sentence entirely. The "U.S., Canada and Australia" are in fact "on two continents." Somehow you re-wrote this as "Canada and America...in two countries."

The intro treats the subject as an almost exclusive U.S. phenomenon, because it is. The question isn't absolute exclusivity but an obvious quantitative dominance that stems from unique historical and cultural conditions. As I indicated above, I intend to add material to that effect. Having dug up at least 500 citations for the train song list, I'm fully aware such statements require sources.

I clearly indicated I realize train songs can be found in other countries and also noted that some of these are represented in the list, including two versions of "Orient Express" as well as every other song of European origin that you mentioned (except the Scottish train disaster song, which is a wonderful "find"). However, in the U.S., there are probably at least 5,000 individual songs - the list currently has almost 1,000 - a "phenomenon" that stretches across all genres but is no more prevalent than in two indigenous U.S. forms, blues and bluegrass.

By "well established" I was referring to the brief histories of the U.S., Canada and Australia relative to most other countries. In the U.S., the train single-handedly transformed the nation, whose interior prior to the 1830s was a hostile frontier. You could say something similar about trains in Russia or Africa in terms of traversing desolate expanses, but the train did more than just enable passage in the U.S. It tied the nation's two coasts together and spurred development in most states in between. For example, within just 20 years (by 1850), 25 of the nation's 32 states had railroads in service.

Your mention of hobos raises interesting cultural differences between itinerants in the U.S. in the 19th and 20th centuries and impoverished populations in the rest of the world. In the U.S., hobos flourished as a subculture because of the train. They could travel thousands of miles and change their "scenery" entirely without having to cross national borders. Some of these vagabonds were notable musicians, for example, Woody Guthrie, Cisco Houston and Henry Thomas, who had successful writing/recording careers. While it's conceivable poor people elsewhere in the world might have written train songs, what's certain is they left little evidence, for one, because they wouldn't have had access to recording studios.

I think you're either reaching or wandering in bringing this up out of the blue: "I guess the point I am trying to make is that Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not simply a place for storing interesting lists of things." Are you disputing the legitimacy of the article based on WP:List? Allreet (talk) 09:34, 18 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Hey, Cottonshirt, let's just start the conversation over...or simply let it go. It's not worth any bad feelings. I'm certain we're both acting in good faith, that is, forging ahead with good intentions in trying to do the best we can on behalf of something we believe in. Wish you the best. Allreet (talk) 23:12, 24 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, Cottonshirt. I've revised the introduction to the List of Train Songs and added comments on the Talk page indicating my intention to remove the Globalize template. Please take a look at both the introduction and comments and if you will, provide any feedback you may have on this issue. Thanks. Allreet (talk) 15:28, 9 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

DSB edit

Hello Cottonshirt, I've just returned from a long break and I noticed your edits to De Situ Britanniae. Thank you for finding and correcting my error. I've also tried to address your objection to the statement in the article lede, and left a note on the talk page (didn't know if the article was still on your watchlist). Regards, Notuncurious (talk) 04:22, 27 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Train Songs: Removed Globalize template

Hi, Cottonshirt: I am writing to inform you that I have removed the Globalize template from the List of train songs article. I've posted an explanation of the grounds for removal on the article's Talk page. I would appreciate your feedback, including any objections you may have. Thanks. Allreet (talk) 16:45, 28 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Wikipedia articles needing copy edit

Please do not allow your user page or talk page to have a Category:Wikipedia articles needing copy edit category, as this creates confusion for those of us who do copy editing.--DThomsen8 (talk) 00:43, 1 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for noticing. I did not intend to indicate that my talk page is in that category. My intention was to have a link to the category page so that I would know which articles require copy editing. It is possible that a link to some other page might be more appropriate and any suggestion you might have in that regard would be welcome. Thank you. Cottonshirt τ 03:41, 1 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Say [[:Category:Wikipedia articles needing copy edit]] and then clicking on that to see what is in the category without putting the page into the category. Notice the use of the nowicki tags to let you see what is to be used. Also, click on the first line and look at the category contents.--DThomsen8 (talk) 01:09, 7 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I notice now that you said "talk page" above, but the fix is needed on your user page. Also, it would be best to use your sandbox for draft articles.--DThomsen8 (talk) 02:00, 19 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Clarke-Stewart

Hi Cottonshirt - just made a few changes to article - feel free to change any back! --Iztwoz (talk) 10:36, 17 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Sources for 1880 AAA Championships

Hello! Do you know of any sources beyond the statistics page? Optimally we'd have something to support the text there, I'm not sure what newspapers would be best to search through, if any. Vermont (🐿️—🏳️‍🌈) 04:43, 31 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Your signature and linter errors

Just a reminder that your signature contains obsolete font tags. They create Linter errors, and it is advised that you change your signature to '''[[User:Cottonshirt|Cottonshirt]][[User talk:Cottonshirt|τ]]''' ASAP.

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If the software doesn't accept my replacement signature, let me know, and if that's the case, unfortunately you may have to change it to something else. Sheep (talk) 19:51, 13 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Help me!

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Please help me with... I want to create a template that is very similar to dozens of other templates just like it. the name of the country changes but they are all essentially the same thing so I want to create a template for Scottish Athletics Championships based on the very similar French Athletics Championships. if I go to the template, not the article, the template at the bottom of the page French Athletics Championships, click edit, and edit the URL, does that change the name of the existing template or create a new template with the new name? thank you. Cottonshirt τ 07:39, 27 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

If you are referring to Template:French Athletics Championships, then yes, were you to create Template:Scottish Athletics Championships you could theoretically create a template that also uses {{navbox}} and functions the same as the French template. However, we do not have an article on the Scottish Athletics Championships, so creating a template for it is a bit like putting the cart before the horse. A navigation template is only necessary when there are multiple (i.e. more than 5) pages that need to be linked together. Right now, there are zero, so I wouldn't worry too much about creating a navbox just yet. If you want more help, change the {{help me-helped}} back into a {{help me}}, stop by the Teahouse, or Wikipedia's live help channel, or the help desk to ask someone for assistance. To reply directly to me, start your message with {{u|Primefac}}. Primefac (talk) 09:30, 27 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Primefac would you please so kind as to answer the question that I asked. thank you. Cottonshirt τ 12:47, 27 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

If you mean does that change the name of the existing template or create a new template with the new name - it creates a new template with the new name. This is also true if you just wikilink the template name, as I did above. Primefac (talk) 12:57, 27 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I have sent you a note about a page you started

Hello, Cottonshirt. Thank you for your work on 1885 Scottish Athletics Championships. User:SunDawn, while examining this page as a part of our page curation process, had the following comments:

Hey there! Hope you're having a great day. Thank you for contributing to Wikipedia with your article. I'm happy to inform you that your article has adhered to Wikipedia's policies, so I've marked it as reviewed. Have a fantastic day for you and your family!

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✠ SunDawn ✠ (contact) 06:49, 29 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Didnt want to clog up the rfc

This is a link to what I call the :bogus rfc." I call it that because the discussion invited none of the usual projects involved. Only people who edit on MOS saw it. When it passed easily and they were about to implement it, is when it was brought to my attention. Someone else then made the rfc to counter that other rfc. Yes this is sort of twofold... allow the wording to remain as it has for years and add to MOS so no one gets the gumption to try this again. It sounded like you were split on support of both aspects, and that's fine. Actually it's fine if you want to eliminate capitals with an oppose vote to. Just so long as you understand what oppose and support will mean. There is already someone who posted above you who voted oppose/oppose on these two items. Fyunck(click) (talk) 18:43, 14 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Towns in Álava has been nominated for deletion

Category:Towns in Álava has been nominated for deletion. A discussion is taking place to decide whether this proposal complies with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. Santi2222 (talk) 21:15, 13 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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I have sent you a note about a page you started

Hello, Cottonshirt. Thank you for your work on 1888 Scottish Athletics Championships. SunDawn, while examining this page as a part of our page curation process, had the following comments:

Hello my friend! Good day to you. Thanks for creating the article, I have marked it as reviewed. Have a blessed day!

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✠ SunDawn ✠ (contact) 07:28, 15 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have sent you a note about a page you started

Hello, Cottonshirt. Thank you for your work on 1886 Scottish Athletics Championships. SunDawn, while examining this page as a part of our page curation process, had the following comments:

Hello my friend! Good day to you. Thanks for creating the article, I have marked it as reviewed. Have a blessed day!

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✠ SunDawn ✠ (contact) 07:32, 15 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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A barnstar for you!

	The Original Barnstar
	Thank you for your in-depth expansion of Steeplechase (athletics). I tried to edit it to remove some inferences and use an encyclopedic tone. Also it would be helpful to end all non-lede paragraphs with a reference and include links to online newspaper archives if you're using those. Thanks for your contributions. Habst (talk) 15:19, 5 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I am amused by your comment that you edited the history of steeplechase in order to, "remove some inferences" whilst being oblivious to the fact that you have merely replaced my inferences with your own. and when I say "amused" I mean amused, I am not using amused as a synonym for something else, I laughed at the irony.

we are talking about the Edinburgh Six Foot Club steeplechase at Hunter's Tryst in 1828. the newspaper reported that the winner took three and a half minutes to cover a distance of one mile. you looked at that and based on your knowledge and experience of athletics generally you decided that this does not compute. a mile cannot be run in that time. you then went a stage further and decided that you know why it does not compute. you decided that the distance was not one mile. whereas the possible explanations for why it does not compute are numerous. it could be wrong because the watch was not accurate enough. it could be wrong because they didn't actually have a watch and the three and a half minutes is merely someones guess. it could be wrong because the journalist misheard the time and wrote three and a half when it should have been something else. it could be wrong because the transfer of an analogue newspaper to a digital medium introduced an error of some kind. it could be wrong because the algorithm that transmits the digital medium to my screen has misinterpreted the data, or it could be wrong because I transcribed it incorrectly. the actual reason why it looks wrong to us is both unknown and unknowable. in writing about this I mentioned both the distance of the race and the watch and left it up to the reader to decide for themself why three and a half minutes doesn't make any sense, but you removed that potential uncertainty and chose to replace it with your presumption that it was definitely the distance of the race that was misreported. you can't possibly know that and have no source for your claim.

the text of the entry as I wrote it was capable of improvement. agreed. I was not wholly comfortable with it but couldn't think of any other way of covering all the possibilities in a neutral way within a reasonable number of words. so I agree with you that it deserved to be edited but I think your edit is worse than the original precisely because you make a claim to knowledge you do not possess. I have in turn edited your edit with something that is more neutral and that you will probably consider to be more encyclopedic.

your next edit about the ways in which this race differed from modern steeplechases has missed the point, which was the absence of water, so I have also edited that.

for your next edit, at the conclusion of the Easter sports of 1840, you said, "Though still sometimes run across country," and this is factually incorrect. at this point in history all steeplechases were still being run across country. the first steeplechase to either start or finish on a running track didn't appear for another twenty years, and was, I currently believe, the Oxford University Sports of December 1860, won by Robert Collins (Lincoln College), but this requires more research. so I have deleted your inappropriate adverb "sometimes" (which I think counts as what Wikipedia refers to as "weasel words") because at this point in history it happens all the time, not just sometimes.

ultimately, I think we are both interested in improving the article, and that can only be a good thing, so I thank you for helping me to focus on what mattered. I am considering giving a similar treatment to some of the other athletic events, the hammer and pole vault are particularly poor, but none of them are what I would call encyclopedic, and I have already done cross country running. take care, Cottonshirt τ 07:42, 13 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]