User talk:BartBassist

Hi BartBassist, and Welcome to Wikipedia!

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March 2008

Welcome to Wikipedia. Although everyone is welcome to make constructive contributions to Wikipedia, at least one of your recent edits, such as the one you made to Family tree of the Han Dynasty, did not appear to be constructive and has been automatically reverted by ClueBot. Please use the sandbox for any test edits you would like to make, and take a look at the welcome page to learn more about contributing to this encyclopedia. If you believe there has been a mistake and would like to report a false positive, please report it here and then remove this warning from your talk page. If your edit was not vandalism, please feel free to make your edit again after reporting it. The following is the log entry regarding this warning: Family tree of the Han Dynasty was changed by BartBassist (u) (t) score equals -4042 on 2008-03-29T11:56:25+00:00 . Thank you. ClueBot (talk) 11:56, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Just to clarify the matter, for anyone reading my discussion page – this edit was in fact a reversion of an edit which removed the entire content of the relevant article. I did not bother to lodge a false positive report, as the page (as have the other Chinese imperial family trees) has since altered significantly (the formatting on the current set of pages is just about entirely my doing). Just thought I'd clear that one up. BartBassist (talk) 00:31, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Re: Stephen Hendry

And re: William Wallace: the Wallace monument was built in honour of Mel Gibson in Braveheart, right? </American tourist> - Dudesleeper / Talk 00:11, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Re:Scottish monarchs' family tree

There are more inaccuracies in it than that! I don't that you should have restored it ... inaccurate information is inaccurate information, in an image or not ... but there you go, I'm not gonna revert you. Regards, Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 11:43, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

$100 bill

I recently read your comment on the $100 bill reverse side image page. I just want to tell you that that's how the image is on the bill. The painter who painted the picture made a mistake and painted "4" as "IV" instead of how it appears on Independence Hall ("IIII"). So the picture is real. Armyrifle (talk) 20:36, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

RfD nomination of a template redirect

I have nominated a redirect to a template for discussion. Your opinions on the matter are welcome; please participate in the discussion by adding your comments at the discussion page. Thank you. MBisanz ^talk 15:28, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

RfD nomination of Worcestershire squad

I have nominated Worcestershire squad (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) for discussion. Your opinions on the matter are welcome; please participate in the discussion by adding your comments at the discussion page. Thank you. MBisanz ^talk 03:37, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Prof Dame Hazel Genn

This article is about UCL's Professor of Socio-Legal Studies (UCL profile here), and it needs a (free license) photograph and a short bibliography that summarises her most important publications. As you're currently studying in the Law Faculty, would you like to help with either of these? Thanks in advance - Pointillist (talk) 10:08, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with File:Ksw logo.jpg

Thanks for uploading File:Ksw logo.jpg. The image has been identified as not specifying the copyright status of the image, which is required by Wikipedia's policy on images. Even if you created the image yourself, you still need to release it so Wikipedia can use it. If you don't indicate the copyright status of the image on the image's description page, using an appropriate copyright tag, it may be deleted some time in the next seven days. If you made this image yourself, you can use copyright tags like {{PD-self}} (to release all rights), {{self|CC-by-sa-3.0|GFDL}} (to require that you be credited), or any tag here - just go to the image, click edit, and add one of those. If you have uploaded other images, please verify that you have provided copyright information for them as well.

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This is an automated notice by STBotI. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. NOTE: once you correct this, please remove the tag from the image's page. STBotI (talk) 00:49, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

• You said you were busy with your mid-term assignments so I have fixed up the copyright for you! Thanks for agreeing to help on the Hazel Genn article when you are less busy. - Pointillist (talk) 10:56, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

RGS Worcester and The Alice Ottley School

RE to do list: Talk:RGS Worcester and The Alice Ottley School- an article you have been involved with. As a local person, I have just read the entire articlewith great interest. It has obviously been prepared with great care, and I hesitate to tag it; however, I feel it still reads partly like an essay and that some passages contain subjective wording that may conflict with Wikipedia's MOS.--Kudpung (talk) 02:20, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for this. Actually, I am astonished that my contributions to the RGS page have been noted: I was a King's man myself, and have contributed far more to that page than to the RGS one. But glad to see that someone is noting my small efforts! BartBassist (talk) 23:30, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

King's School

Hi Bart! I nearly became a King's pupil in 1960, but I had to be content with playing rugger agaist them for one of the 'others'
I was the one responsible for adding many of the recent tags on King's School. I have no objection to them being removed as long as they have served their purpose in drawing attention to areas that might need some attention. I have a particular interest in schools in Worcestershire but apart from copyediting, I don't have the resources to fill in any gaps. I do read articles thoroughly before tagging, hence the inline passives that have no citations. I did leave a message about this on the article's talk page. Jenuk and I collaborate closely on the Worcestershire Project (although we share our differences of opinion !)--Kudpung (talk) 13:04, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Kotromanić family tree

Hello, BartBassist! I am trying to create a family tree of a medieval royal family of Bosnia. However, I can't figure out how to use Template:Family tree! I've been trying for months and I've asked many users I "know", but they they don't have a clue about using it either. I found a large family tree made by you and I was amazed (if only because I can't make family tree for a nuclear family :)). Would you please create the Kotromanić family tree for me? It would be very useful as it would help users understand Sigismund of Luxembourg's claim to the throne of Bosnia, as well as Hermann II of Cilli's claim to the throne of Bosnia. The tree is not too long - only six generations - and it is not nearly as complicated as Kings of the Hellenes family tree. I would be very grateful!

Here is a link to a picture of the family tree I made using Paint (even a picture made by me using Paint sucks): http://img269.imageshack.us/i/48286722.png/'>

Thanks in advance! Surtsicna (talk) 16:59, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

WoW! That's much better than I imagined! Sincere thanks! Could you just add Prince Sigismund and Princess Catherine, the two younger children of King Stephen Thomas? They are important because they were proclaimed heirs to the kingdom by their mother's will. You don't have to add their mother. Jadwiga should be removed, as she wasn't relevant to the succession to the throne of Bosnia and removing her would create space for Ostoja and Tvrtko II. That shouldn't be a problem, given how complex family tree you've already made. I am going to add the family tree to the House of Kotromanić article and bs:Kotromanići. Surtsicna (talk) 15:38, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

An early draft of the family tree (kept for the records). BartBassist (talk) 10:21, 4 August 2009 (UTC):

Prijezda I 1211-1287 Ban 1250-87

Stephen I 1242-1314 Ban 1287-1314

Prijezda II d.1290 Ban 1287-90

Stephen II d.1353 Ban (1314-)1322-53

Vladislav d.1354

Charles IV 1316-(r.1346-)1378 HRE 1355-78

Katerina c.1336-1396 m. Hermann I of Celje

Elizabeth 1340-1387

Louis I of Hungary 1326-(r.1342-)1382

Margaret of Bohemia 1335-1349

Hermann II of Celje c.1365-1435

Tvrtko I 1338-1391 Ban 1353-77 King 1377-91

Dabiša d.1395 King 1391-95

Jelena Gruba d.aft.1299 Queen 1395-98

Jadwiga of Poland 1373/4-1399

Mary c.1371-1395

Sigismund 1368-(r.1387-)1437 HRE 1433-37

Barbara of Celje 1392-1451

Ostoja d.1418 King 1398-1404, 1409-18

Tvrtko II 1381-1443 King 1404-09, 1421-43

Ostojić d.1421 King 1418-21

Radivoj d.1463 King 1433-35

Tomaš d.1461 King 1443-61

Tomašević 1438-1463 King 1461-63

Sigismund (Ishak-beg Kraljević) b.1449

Katerina 1459-c.1470

Jadwiga surely is important, but not for the House of Kotromanić. Mary is more important for the Kotromanić dynasty because Tvrtko and Dabiša were her vassals and her husband claimed the Bosnian crown in her right. Charles IV is indeed irrelevant and unnecessary. Adding queens consort would be better than adding Charles IV and Margaret, though it isn't so easy - Tvrtko I had no children with his queen but did have two illegitimate children (though some sources assign Tvrtko II to his wife), Tvrtko I's son Ostoja had three wives and a son with the second wife as well as two illegitimate sons. Ostoja's son had two wives and children with both. Is it possible to create such family tree? Don't bother making it if it would be too complex. Anyway, I prefer Cilli because it is used more often in English. Surtsicna (talk) 21:10, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

I forgot to ask: where do you get information about the dates of birth and death of the members of this family? Surtsicna (talk) 21:21, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

You amaze me every time! The tree is so wonderfully simple, yet descriptive and inclusive! I am going to put it into the House of Kotromanić article right away! Surtsicna (talk) 12:15, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

What old version? The article now uses the latest version. Surtsicna (talk) 13:41, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Unfortunatly, the sources you use seem to be self-published and as such they are not reliable. Neither Bosnian-language books nor English-language books give years of birth and death of people such as Elizabeth of Serbia, Elizabeth of Kuyavia, Catherine of Bosnia, etc. That's why I think it is better to remove the dates, unless reliable sources can back them up. Surtsicna (talk) 14:33, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

The only reason for keeping the marriage to Louis I of Hungary is that I didn't see it :) I'll remove it because we shouldn't fill the boxes with too much information. After all, we would have to add three wives to Ostoja's box! Surtsicna (talk) 15:26, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Barty

Pick up your mobile?

Alex —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.171.14.159 (talk) 12:37, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Jordanian Royal Family

If you are bored and looking for a family tree to build, you could build a family tree of the Jordanian Royal Family. It would be useful for the Line of succession to the Jordanian throne. If you decide to do it, don't include wives of kings and princes - as King Hussein alone had four wives, it would be very difficult. Also, you don't have to include any princess, as princesses are not relevant for the article and the royal family is too large to include each member. So, male members only would be the easiest and tidiest way. Bye! Surtsicna (talk) 16:37, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

Can you speak Chinese?

What dose the "div." mean in Chinese emperors family tree (late)? 星光下的人 (talk) 07:52, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

OH,no,Division (military) is a military unit,it means “师”,but 郡 is a administrative machinery unit,they are not the same meaning. 星光下的人 (talk) 01:04, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

First,about Commandery,you can see Qing Dynasty nobility,this page use "prince of a commandery " to translate “郡王”，this is the reason which I use it.And Commandry (feudalism) corresponding Chinese page is also “郡”。I agree this word is so long, "Comm." maybe better.

Second,about Guangxu's adoption,it is truely.In China,adoption called "过继",it can happen after sb is death,and "过继“ only can happen in Firts generation and Second generation.Guangxu Emperor and Tongzhi Emperor is the same generation ,we call "堂兄弟”(first cousin),they can not adopted . In Draft History of Qing(清史稿），it says "he(Guangxu) is adopted to Wenzong(Xianfeng),to succeed the throne,become next emperor"(以上继文宗为子，入承大统，为嗣皇帝)。 星光下的人 (talk) 00:51, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

About Chinese emperors family tree (early)

I think [This edition] is better than your change.The same generation in same line is more important than son-sequence,and Why not Western Han and Eastern Han in one tree?星光下的人 (talk) 01:46, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Can you draw the branch in sequence when you build the family tree?It's hard to me. = =||| 星光下的人 (talk) 11:59, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

How to add Liu Penzi in Chinese emperors family tree (early),he is also a emperor,although a puppet.His line is Gaozu——Prince Daohui of Qi(齐悼惠王刘肥）——Prince Jing of Chengyang （城阳景王刘章）——Liu Xi（城阳恭王刘喜）——Liu Yan（城阳顷王刘延）——Liu Yi（城阳敬王刘义）——Prince Hui of Chengyang（城阳惠王刘武）——Liu Shun（城阳荒王刘顺）——Marquess of Shi式侯 Liu xian(刘宪）——Marquess of Shi式侯 Liu Ba(刘霸）（no son)

Marquess of Shi式侯 Liu xian(刘宪）——Marquess of Shi式侯 Liu Meng(刘萌）——Liu Penzi 刘盆子 星光下的人 (talk) 01:46, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

son-sequence of yuan is wrong,please see Family tree of Genghis Khan 星光下的人 (talk) 02:07, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

How do you recognize the Emperor and Dynasty? Why Dose other kingdoms 's monarchs are not emperors?Dose Chinese emperors family tree (ancient) all are emperors? 星光下的人 (talk) 03:05, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

List of Australian PMs - new format

No.	Name (Birth–Death)	Portrait	Division	Party	Assumed office	Left office	Ref
1	Sir Edmund Barton (1849–1920)		MP for Hunter, NSW, 1901–1903 (resigned)	Protectionist (Barton Ministry)	1 January 1901	24 September 1903
			First Australian Prime Minister, selected in preference to William Lyne despite Hopetoun Blunder. Elected 1901 (inaugural federal election). Retired to pursue judicial career.
2	Alfred Deakin (1856–1919)		MP for Ballaarat, Vic(1), 1901–1913 (retired)	Protectionist (1st Deakin Ministry)	24 September 1903	27 April 1904
			Elected 1903; three-way hung Parliament, with government reliant on Labor support. Unable to pass any legislation; resigned.
3	Chris Watson (1867–1941)		MP for Bland, NSW, 1901–1906 MP for South Sydney, NSW, 1906–1910 (retired)	Labor (Watson Ministry)	27 April 1904	18 August 1904
			First Labour Prime Minister in the world. Enacted tax reforms. Minority government; sought a double dissolution to allow an election; refused by the Governor-General; resigned.
4	Sir George Reid (1845–1918)		MP for East Sydney, NSW, 1901–1909 (resigned)	Free Trade (Reid Ministry)	18 August 1904	5 July 1905
			Premier of New South Wales 1894–1899; first former state premier to become Prime Minister. Minority government; resigned when Protectionists and Labor formed an alliance.
(2)	Alfred Deakin (1856–1919)		MP for Ballaarat, Vic(1), 1901–1913 (retired)	Protectionist (2nd, 3rd Deakin Ministries)	5 July 1905	13 November 1908
			Re-elected 1906. Passed extensive legislation; Arranged for Australian control of Papua and Northern Territory; Expanded High Court to five justices.
5	Andrew Fisher (1862–1928)		MP for Wide Bay, Qld, 1901–1915 (resigned)	Labor (1st Fisher Ministry)	13 November 1908	2 June 1909
			Seat of Government Act, providing for a federal capital at Canberra; Workers' wage reform; Prepared for establishment of the Navy. Ousted by Parliamentary majority held by the newly merged Commonwealth Liberal Party.
(2)	Alfred Deakin (1856–1919)		MP for Ballaarat, Vic(1), 1901–1913 (retired)	Commonwealth Liberal (4th Deakin Ministry)	2 June 1909	29 April 1910
			Deakin's Protectionist Party had merged with Joseph Cook's Anti-Communist Party, resulting in the first absolute majority government. Ordered the dreadnought battle cruiser; Financial Agreement of 1909, granting the States 25 shillings per head per annum. Defeated 1910.
(5)	Andrew Fisher (1862–1928)		MP for Wide Bay, Qld, 1901–1915 (resigned)	Labor (2nd Fisher Ministry)	29 April 1910	24 June 1913
			Elected 1910; absolute majority. Instigated social and financial reform, including Australia's first paper currency. Defeated 1913.
6	Joseph Cook (1860–1947)		MP for Parramatta, NSW, 1901–1921 (resigned)	Commonwealth Liberal (Cook Ministry)	24 June 1913	17 September 1914
			Elected 1913 with a one-seat majority; Labor retained a Senate majority. Outbreak of World War I. Brought about a double dissolution; defeated 1914.
(5)	Andrew Fisher (1862–1928)		MP for Wide Bay, Qld, 1901–1915 (resigned)	Labor (3rd Fisher Ministry)	17 September 1914	27 October 1915
			Elected 1914. Pledged absolute support to "the mother country" (the UK) in World War I. Enacted both peacetime and defence legislation. Oversaw heavy Australian losses in the Gallipoli Campaign; resigned.
7	Billy Hughes (1862–1952)		MP for West Sydney, NSW, 1901–1917 MP for Bendigo, Vic, 1917–1922 MP for North Sydney, NSW, 1922–1949 MP for Bradfield, NSW, 1949–1952 (died)	Labor (1st Hughes Ministry)	27 October 1915	14 November 1916
				National Labor (2nd Hughes Ministry)	14 November 1916	17 February 1917
				Nationalist (3rd, 4th, 5th Hughes Ministries)	17 February 1917	9 February 1923
			Advocated conscription during World War I, on which he lost a plebiscite; expelled from the Labor Party. His new National Labor Party entered into an alliance with the Commonwealth Liberal Party, later merging fully as the Nationalist Party, elected 1917 and 1919. Introduced Preferential voting. Lost a second plebiscite on conscription; resigned as PM, but immediately re-commissioned. The first Australian to sign an international treaty, the Treaty of Versailles. Re-elected 1922; hung Parliament. Lost support of the right wing of the party; resigned.
8	Stanley Bruce (1883–1967)		MP for Flinders, Vic, 1918–1929 (lost seat) ; 1931–1933 (resigned)	Nationalist (1st, 2nd, 3rd Bruce Ministries)	9 February 1923	22 October 1929
			Elected 1925, 1928. Supported the British Empire, the League of Nations, and the White Australia Policy; Maritime Industries crisis. Defeated (and lost his own seat) 1929.
9	James Scullin (1876–1953)		MP for Yarra, Vic, 1910–1949 (retired)	Labor (Scullin Ministry)	22 October 1929	6 January 1932
			Elected 1929. Wall Street Crash of 1929 and Great Depression. The government split on economic issues, forcing a vote of no confidence; defeated 1931.
10	Joseph Lyons (1879–1939)		MP for Wilmot, Tas, 1929–1939 (died)	United Australia (1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th Lyons Ministries)	6 January 1932	7 April 1939 (died)
			Premier of Tasmania 1923–1928. Elected 1931, 1934, 1937. Recovery from the Great Depression; Supported appeasement, but expanded the armed forces; Edward VIII abdication crisis. Died in office (heart attack).
11	Sir Earle Page (1880–1961)		MP for Cowper, NSW 1919–1961 (defeated)	Country (Page Ministry)	7 April 1939	26 April 1939
			Leader of the Country Party, junior member in the Lyons-Page Coalition Government. Appointed by the Governor-General on Lyons' death, until United Australia elected a leader; refused to serve under Robert Menzies; overthrown as Country Party leader.
12	Robert Menzies (1894–1978)		MP for Kooyong, Vic, 1934–1966 (resigned)	United Australia (1st, 2nd, 3rd Menzies Ministries)	26 April 1939	28 August 1941
			Minority government until the Country Party re-joined the government. Outbreak of World War II. Defeated 1940; remained in government only with independent support. Forced to resign.
13	Arthur Fadden (1895–1973)		MP for Darling Downs, Qld 1936–1949 MP for McPherson, Qld 1949–1958 (retired)	Country (Fadden Ministry)	28 August 1941	7 October 1941
			Leader of the Country Party, junior member in the Coalition Government. Appointed on Menzies' resignation. Hung Parliament reliant on support of Independent MPs (Coles and Wilson); they voted against Fadden's budget. Resigned.
14	John Curtin (1885–1945)		MP for Fremantle, WA, 1928–1931 (lost seat) ; 1934–1945 (died)	Labor (1st, 2nd Curtin Ministries)	7 October 1941	5 July 1945 (died)
			Appointed by the Governor-General on condition that Independent MPs Coles and Wilson would support him, thereby ending government instability. Re-elected 1943. Led Australia through World War II. Died in office (heart attack).
15	Frank Forde (1890–1983)		MP for Capricornia, Qld, 1922–1946 (defeated)	Labor (Forde Ministry)	6 July 1945	13 July 1945
			Deputy Prime Minister under Curtin. On Curtin's death, served as interim Prime Minister until Labor Party leadership elections. Defeated by Ben Chifley in leadership elections; appointed Deputy Party Leader and Minister for Defence.
16	Ben Chifley (1885–1951)		MP for Macquarie, NSW, 1928–1931 (lost seat) ; 1940–1951 (died)	Labor (1st, 2nd Chifley Ministries)	13 July 1945	19 December 1949
(12)	Robert Menzies (1894–1978)		MP for Kooyong, Vic, 1934–1966 (resigned)	Liberal (4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th Menzies Ministries)	19 December 1949	26 January 1966
17	Harold Holt (1908–1967)		MP for Fawkner, Vic, 1935–1949 MP for Higgins, Vic, 1949–1967†	Liberal (1st, 2nd Holt Ministries)	26 January 1966	19 December 1967†
			Re-elected 1966. Cold War; Expanded Australia's role in Vietnam War. †Disappeared while swimming at Cheviot Beach 17 December 1967; declared dead 19 December.
18	John McEwen (1900–1980)		MP for Echuca, Vic, 1934–1937 MP for Indi, Vic, 1937–1949 MP for Murray, Vic, 1949–1971 (resigned)	Country (McEwen Ministry)	19 December 1967	10 January 1968
			Leader of the Country Party, junior member in the Menzies-Holt Coalition Government. Appointed by the Governor-General on Holt's disappearance, until the Liberals elected a leader; refused to serve under the obvious candidate William McMahon. John Gorton selected instead; Gorton appointed McEwen Deputy Prime Minister.
19	John Gorton (1911–2002)		Senator 1950–1968 (resigned3) MP for Higgins, Vic, 1968–1975 (retired4)	Liberal (1st, 2nd Gorton Ministries)	10 January 1968	10 March 1971
			The only Senator to serve as Prime Minister; resigned from the Senate and elected MP. Re-elected 1969. Continued to support involvement in Vietnam War. Retired.
20	William McMahon (1908–1988)		MP for Lowe, NSW, 1949–1982 (resigned)	Liberal (McMahon Ministry)	10 March 1971	5 December 1972
			Continued to support conscription and involvement in Vietnam War. Defeated 1972.
21	Gough Whitlam (1916– )	File:Whitlam1955.jpg	MP for Werriwa, NSW, 1952–1978 (resigned)	Labor (1st, 2nd, 3rd Whitlam Ministries)	5 December 1972	11 November 1975
22	Malcolm Fraser (1930– )		MP for Wannon, Vic, 1955–1983 (resigned)	Liberal (1st, 2nd, 3rd Fraser Ministries)	11 November 1975	11 March 1983
23	Bob Hawke (1929– )		MP for Wills, Vic, 1980–1992 (resigned)	Labor (1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th Hawke Ministries)	11 March 1983	20 December 1991
24	Paul Keating (1944– )		MP for Blaxland, NSW, 1969–1996 (resigned)	Labor (1st, 2nd Keating Ministries)	20 December 1991	11 March 1996
			Re-elected 1993. Mandatory detention of asylum seekers; Reconciliation with Aborigines, including Redfern Park Speech and Native Title Act 1993; Established the Republic Advisory Committee; Relations with Asia, through APEC. Defeated 1996.
25	John Howard (1939– )		MP for Bennelong, NSW, 1974–2007 (lost seat)	Liberal (1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th Howard Ministries)	11 March 1996	3 December 2007
			Defeated 1987. Elected 1996, 1998, 2001, 2004. Defeated (and lost his own seat) 2007.
26	Kevin Rudd (1957– )		MP for Griffith, QLD, since 1998	Labor (Rudd Ministry)	3 December 2007	Incumbent
			Elected 2007. Signed Kyoto Protocol; Issued apology to the Stolen Generations; Withdrew troops from Iraq War; Upheld Australian involvement in War in Afghanistan.

Hi BartBassit, most of this table looks good so far (reading discussion at Talk:List of Prime Ministers of Australia), would you like me to finnish it as you seemed to have stopped or how long until you will have it finished? Regards Wikistar (Place order here) 13:20, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Shadow Cabinet

†died in office ‡served as interim leader

• Piece of trivia which becomes apparent from this list:

Q: There is said to be "something of the night" about Michael Howard, but in what respect could he be considered Jim Callaghan's shadow?

A: Callaghan was the only man to have served in all four Great Offices of State. Howard is the only man to have served in all four shadow offices.

Aside from this, people have an interesting tendency to shift from right to left on this table (most notably Howard) as their careers progress.

Political party		Leader of the Opposition		Deputy Leader of the Opposition		Shadow Chancellor		Shadow Foreign Secretary		Shadow Home Secretary
	Labour	Hugh Gaitskell 14 Dec 1955– 18 Jan 1963†	File:HughGaitskell2.jpg	Jim Griffiths 1955–1959		Harold Wilson 14 Dec 1955– 2 Nov 1961		Alfred Robens 14 Dec 1955– 22 July 1956	File:Alfred Robbens2.jpg	Kenneth Younger 14 Dec 1955– 13 May 1957
								Aneurin Bevan 22 July 1956– 11 Oct 1959	File:Bevan nla.pic-vn3646742.jpg
										Patrick Gordon Walker 13 May 1957– 12 Mar 1962
				Aneurin Bevan 1959– 6 July 1960†	File:Bevan nla.pic-vn3646742.jpg			Denis Healey 11 Oct 1959– 2 Nov 1961
				George Brown 1960– 15 Oct 1964‡	File:LordGeorge-Brown2.jpg
						James Callaghan 2 Nov 1961– 15 Oct 1964		Harold Wilson 2 Nov 1961– 14 Feb 1963
										George Brown 12 Mar 1962– 15 Feb 1963	File:LordGeorge-Brown2.jpg
		Harold Wilson 14 Feb 1963– 16 Oct 1964						Patrick Gordon Walker 14 Feb 1963– 15 Oct 1964		Frank Soskice 15 Feb 1963– 15 Oct 1964
	Conservative	Sir Alec Douglas-Home 16 Oct 1964– 28 July 1965		VACANT		Reginald Maudling 15 Oct 1964– 27 July 1965	50px	R. A. Butler 15 Oct 1964– 27 July 1965		Edward Boyle 15 Oct 1964– 28 July 1965
		Edward Heath 28 July 1965– 18 June 1970		Reginald Maudling 28 July 1965– 18 June 1970	50px	Edward Heath 28 July 1965– 11 Nov 1965		Reginald Maudling 27 July 1965– 11 Nov 1965	50px	Peter Thorneycroft 28 July 1965– 13 Apr 1966
						Iain Macleod 11 Nov 1965– 20 June 1970		Christopher Soames 11 Nov 1965– 13 Apr 1966
								Sir Alec Douglas-Home 13 Apr 1966– 18 June 1970		Quinten McGarel Hogg 13 Apr 1966– 18 June 1970
	Labour	Harold Wilson 19 June 1970– 4 Mar 1974		Roy Jenkins 19 June 1970– 7 Apr 1972		Roy Jenkins 20 June 1970– 19 Apr 1972		Denis Healey 20 June 1970– 19 Apr 1972		James Callaghan 18 June 1970– 19 Oct 1971
										Shirley Williams 19 Oct 1971– 4 May 1973
				Edward Short April 1972– 28 Feb 1974		Denis Healey 19 Apr 1972– 28 Feb 1974		James Callaghan 19 Apr 1972– 28 Feb 1974
										Roy Jenkins 4 May 1973– 4 Mar 1974
	Conservative	Edward Heath 4 Mar 1974– 11 Feb 1975		William Whitelaw 4 Mar 1974– 4 May 1979		Robert Carr 28 Feb 1974– 11 Feb 1975		Geoffrey Rippon 28 Feb 1974– 11 Feb 1975		Keith Joseph 4 Mar 1974– 11 Feb 1975
		Margaret Thatcher 11 Feb 1975– 4 May 1979				Sir Geoffrey Howe 11 Feb 1975– 4 May 1979		Reginald Maudling 11 Feb 1975– 11 Apr 1976	50px	Ian Gilmour 11 Feb 1975– 11 Apr 1976
								John Davies 11 Apr 1976– 23 Sep 1978		William Whitelaw 11 Apr 1976– 4 May 1979
								Francis Pym 23 Sep 1978– 4 May 1979	File:Zconcam61.jpg
	Labour	James Callaghan 4 May 1979– 10 Nov 1980		Michael Foot 4 May 1979– 10 Nov 1980	File:MichaelFoot1953.jpg	Denis Healey 4 May 1979– 4 Nov 1980		Peter Shore 4 May 1979– 4 Nov 1980		Merlyn Rees 4 May 1979– 4 Nov 1980
		Michael Foot 10 Nov 1980– 2 Oct 1983	File:MichaelFoot1953.jpg	Denis Healey 4 Nov 1980– 11 June 1983		Peter Shore 4 Nov 1980– 9 June 1983		Denis Healey 4 Nov 1980– 13 June 1987		Roy Hattersley 4 Nov 1980– 2 Oct 1983
		Neil Kinnock 2 Oct 1983– 18 July 1992		Roy Hattersley 9 June 1983– 11 April 1992		Roy Hattersley 9 June 1983– 11 June 1987				Gerald Kaufman 2 Oct 1983– 13 June 1987
						John Smith 11 June 1987– 18 July 1992		Gerald Kaufman 11 June 1987– 19 July 1992		Roy Hattersley 13 June 1987– 19 July 1992
		John Smith 18 July 1992– 12 May 1994†		Margaret Beckett 11 April 1992– 12 May 1994‡		Gordon Brown 18 July 1992– 2 May 1997		Jack Cunningham 11 Apr 1992– 22 July 1994		Tony Blair 19 July 1992– 22 July 1994
		Tony Blair 21 July 1994– 2 May 1997		John Prescott 21 July 1994– 2 May 1997				Robin Cook 22 July 1994– 2 May 1997		Jack Straw 22 July 1994– 2 May 1997
	Conservative	John Major 7 May 1997– 11 June 1997		VACANT		Kenneth Clarke 2 May 1997– 11 June 1997	File:Ken Clarke 01.jpg	John Major 7 May 1997– 11 June 1997		Michael Howard 2 May 1997– 11 June 1997
		William Hague 19 June 1997– 18 Dec 2001				Peter Lilley 11 June 1997– 2 June 1998		Michael Howard 11 June 1997– 15 June 1999		Brian Mawhinney 11 June 1997– 2 June 1998
				Peter Lilley 1998– 1999		Francis Maude 2 June 1998– 1 Feb 2000				Norman Fowler 2 June 1998– 15 June 1999
				VACANT				John Maples 15 June 1999– 2 Feb 2000		Ann Widdecombe 15 June 1999– 18 Sep 2001
						Michael Portillo 1 Feb 2000– 18 Sep 2001		Francis Maude 2 Feb 2000– 18 Sep 2001
		Iain Duncan Smith 18 Sep 2001– 6 Nov 2003		Michael Ancram 18 Sep 2001– Dec 2005		Michael Howard 18 Sep 2001– 6 Nov 2003		Michael Ancram 18 Sep 2001– 10 May 2005		Oliver Letwin 18 Sep 2001– 6 Nov 2003
		Michael Howard 6 Nov 2003– 6 Dec 2005				Oliver Letwin 6 Nov 2003– 5 May 2005				David Davis 6 Nov 2003– 12 June 2008
						George Osborne 5 May 2005– 6 May 2010		Liam Fox 10 May 2005– 6 Dec 2005
		David Cameron 6 Dec 2005– 6 May 2010		William Hague Dec 2005– 6 May 2010				William Hague 6 Dec 2005– 6 May 2010
										Dominic Grieve 12 June 2008– 19 Jan 2009
										Chris Grayling 19 Jan 2009– 6 May 2010
	Labour	Harriet Harman (acting)		Harriet Harman 11 May 2010–		Alistair Darling 11 May 2010– 8 Oct 2010		David Miliband 11 May 2010– 8 Oct 2010		Alan Johnson 11 May 2010– 8 Oct 2010
		Ed Miliband 25 Sep 2010–				Alan Johnson 8 Oct 2010–		Yvette Cooper 8 Oct 2010–		Ed Balls 8 Oct 2010–

Comments

I'm not sure it's possible to allocate full Shadow positions before 1955. As I understand it the concept of a fully defined "shadow government" with individuals holding defined portfolios was pretty much introduced in 1955 and before then there was a grouping of leading MPs from the party (sometimes with a clearly defined membership, sometimes less so) who spoke for the Opposition in debates but didn't have strict portfolios and could potentially speak on any subject (although some specialisation might develop if they'd held particular portfolios in government). My memory of the various Butler biographies is that his appointment as Chancellor in 1951 surprised many who had expected Oliver Lyttleton - this wouldn't have been the case if he'd been the recognised "Shadow Chancellor".

The table is also assigning some start dates to the day of the election, which creates some anomalies, especially when a member lost their seat. Usually it takes a bit of time for the post election front bench to be finalised, especially if the party leader announces their resignation immediately after the election. In 2005 it's my recollection that Howard didn't appoint his new Shadow Cabinet until about a week after polling day. Timrollpickering (talk) 18:33, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

I've moved the table from Official Opposition Shadow Cabinet to its own article, List of Shadow holders of Great Offices of State. Since many of those listed as deputies never held the title "Deputy Leader of the Opposition", including William Hague and Harriet Harman, I've removed that column, which has the added benefit of making the rest of the table easier to read. -Rrius (talk) 03:39, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Ainsworth pic

Thanks Bart, for the Ainsworth PD file , that pic has been a long time coming, good work. Off2riorob (talk) 20:35, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

Family tree of Roman/Greek gods

Hello! Remember when you made some family trees for me? Well, you've done a great job and, since you clearly enjoy creating family trees, I wanted to propose making a family tree of Roman/Greek gods. I believe you'll really have fun doing it, as the family relationships are very complex (gods marrying their sisters, goddesses marrying their great-nephews, goddesses born of brother-sister marriages marrying their uncles, etc). I don't need it; it's just for your entertaintment, though it would be very useful for Wikipedia as well. If you do create one, please let me know! Surtsicna (talk) 22:44, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

Talkback

Hello, BartBassist. You have new messages at Connormah's talk page.
You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

Connormah (talk | contribs) 21:39, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

Possibly unfree File:Nigel Lawson BW.jpg

A file that you uploaded or altered, File:Nigel Lawson BW.jpg, has been listed at Wikipedia:Possibly unfree files because its copyright status is unclear or disputed. If the file's copyright status cannot be verified, it may be deleted. You may find more information on the file description page. You are welcome to add comments to its entry at the discussion if you are interested in it not being deleted. Thank you. -- fetchcomms☛ 02:06, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

List of Prime Ministers of the United Kingdom

I think in general that colour pictures are better than soemthing black and white. I cropped some of the clunkier images into headshots. Hopefully this helps resolve some of your objection. Adam sk (talk) 05:13, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Replaceable fair use File:Nigel Lawson BW.jpg

Thanks for uploading File:Nigel Lawson BW.jpg. I noticed the description page specifies that the media is being used under a claim of fair use, but its use in Wikipedia articles fails our first non-free content criterion in that it illustrates a subject for which a freely licensed media could reasonably be found or created that provides substantially the same information. If you believe this media is not replaceable, please:

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Names of Greek Prime Ministers

Please stop adding your personal observations about the names of the Greek Prime Ministers. Personal observations are by definition original research. The Greek Wikipedia is not a reliable source. Please check the policies of WP:OR, WP:RS and WP:V. Also WP:3RR. Thank you. Dr.K. ^{λogosπraxis} 01:22, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for your message. I have replied on my talk. Dr.K. ^{λogosπraxis} 15:38, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

Thank you very much. Please go right ahead. Take care. Dr.K. ^{λogosπraxis} 16:15, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

List of heads of state of Mexico

I believe that there's no any inefficiency to edit a considerable improvement on the current formatting of the section. --Helfmann (talk) 06:53, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

List of Chancellors of Germany

Well, I think that political leanings of early Chancellors should be marked with partisan colors, although they weren't members of any party. They had very strong political leanings (especially Bismarck), and they should me marked with appropriate colors. Next, I removed partisan color from the last part of the table because there is already meta/colors (like Christian Democratic Union (Germany)/meta/color, for example) to mark that part of the table. --Sundostund (talk) 10:50, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

I agree with you to reintroduce the coloring of the Diet column. It's really useful to to show who controlled the Bundestag at a particular period. Also, you are free to modify colors for "Liberal Conservative" political faction and the Nazi Party in order to reduce similarity between them. --Sundostund (talk) 16:11, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

FL at risk (List of Prime Ministers of the United Kingdom)

Hello. Instead of going straight to WP:FLRC, I'm here to let you know that the subject list is at risk of being nominated for demotion. There are several comments on the talk page. If these are not addressed in the next week then the list will be nominated for demotion. Feel free to let me know if you'd like to understand more about this process. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:23, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

File source problem with File:Wang Shizhen.jpg

Thank you for uploading File:Wang Shizhen.jpg. I noticed that the file's description page currently doesn't specify who created the content, so the copyright status is unclear. If you did not create this file yourself, you will need to specify the owner of the copyright. If you obtained it from a website, please add a link to the website from which it was taken, together with a brief restatement of that website's terms of use of its content. However, if the copyright holder is a party unaffiliated from the website's publisher, that copyright should also be acknowledged.

If you have uploaded other files, consider verifying that you have specified sources for those files as well. You can find a list of files you have created in your upload log. Unsourced and untagged images may be deleted one week after they have been tagged per Wikipedia's criteria for speedy deletion, F4. If the image is copyrighted and non-free, the image will be deleted 48 hours after 15:21, 24 January 2011 (UTC) per speedy deletion criterion F7. If you have any questions or are in need of assistance please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. Magog the Ogre (talk) 15:21, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

File copyright problem with File:Theunis.jpg

You forgot to add a copyright tag for File:Theunis.jpg that you uploaded recently. We take copyright status very seriously, so it may be deleted if you don't add an appropriate one to show the copyright status of the image. ww2censor (talk) 05:33, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

I see you added a {{cc-by-sa-2.5}} licence to the image but I don't see any evidence from the source provided that this licence is proper to the image. Where do you see that this is the correct copyright licence for the image? ww2censor (talk) 06:55, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

The image refers to hu:Fájl:FOTO DE BROQUEVILLE.JPG, where the proprietor of ars-moriendi.be licenses all the content of that webpage with a cc-by-2.5. BartBassist (talk) 07:00, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

Baron Latimer

Since the revival of that Barony of Latimer from abeyance from 1913, the Money-Coutts barons have spelled their title Latymer. But this is not usual and not binding for the Nevill barons, their ancestors; Complete Peerage and the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography agree in spelling that title, like the original family, Latimer. We should spell Henry VIII's stepson as reliable sources spell him; the Wardour Street mediaevalism of his distant descendants (who are, individually and collectively, far less notable) is not uncommon among the claimants of long-forgotten titles. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:47, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

Israeli PMs list

Prime Minister					Elected (Knesset)		Government
No.	Name	Portrait	Political Party	Term			No.	Term		Political Parties
1	David Ben-Gurion דוד בן-גוריון		Mapai	14 May 1948 - 26 January 1954	—		Prov.	14 May 1948	10 March 1949	Mapai• Mapam• HHaM• New Aliyah• S&O• Mizrachi• Gen.Zionists• Agudat
					1949 (1st)		1st	10 March 1949	1 November 1950	Mapai• URF• Progressive• S&O• DLN
							2nd	1 November 1950	8 October 1951
					1951 (2nd)		3rd	8 October 1951	24 December 1952	Mapai• Mizrachi• HHaM-AY-PAY• DLIA-P&W-A&D
							4th	24 December 1952	26 January 1954	Mapai• Gen.Zionists• Progressive• Mizrachi• HHaM• DLIA-P&W-A&D
2	Moshe Sharett משה שרת		Mapai	26 January 1954 - 3 November 1955			5th	26 January 1954	29 June 1955
							6th	29 June 1955	3 November 1955	Mapai• Mizrachi• HHaM• DLIA-P&W-A&D
(1)	David Ben-Gurion דוד בן-גוריון		Mapai	3 November 1955 - 26 June 1963	1955 (3rd)		7th	3 November 1955	7 January 1958	Mapai• NRP• Mapam• AHaA• Progressive• DLIA-P&W-A&D• P&D-C&B[9]
							8th	7 January 1958	17 December 1959
					1959 (4th)		9th	17 December 1959	2 November 1961
					1961 (5th)		10th	2 November 1961	26 June 1963	Mapai• NRP• AHaA• PAY• P&D-C&B
3	Levi Eshkol לוי אשכול		Mapai	26 June 1963 - 26 February 1969[2]			11th	26 June 1963	22 December 1964
							12th	22 December 1964	12 January 1966
			Alignment[1]		1965 (6th)		13th	12 January 1966	17 March 1969	Alignment• NRP• Mapam• Indep.Liberals• PAY• P&D-C&B• Gahal[9]• Rafi[9]
—	Yigal Allon (interim) יגאל אלון‎	50px	Alignment	26 February 1969[2] - 17 March 1969
4	Golda Meir גולדה מאיר		Alignment	17 March 1969 - 3 June 1974			14th	17 March 1969	15 December 1969
					1969 (7th)		15th	15 December 1969	10 March 1974	Alignment• Gahal[9]• NRP• Indep.Liberals• P&D-C&B
					1973 (8th)		16th	10 March 1974	3 June 1974	Alignment• NRP• Indep.Liberals
5	Yitzhak Rabin יצחק רבין		Alignment	3 June 1974 - 20 June 1977[3]			17th	3 June 1974	20 June 1977	Alignment• Indep.Liberals• Ratz[9]• NRP[9]
6	Menachem Begin מנחם בגין		Likud	20 June 1977 - 10 October 1983	1977 (9th)		18th	20 June 1977	5 August 1981	Likud• NRP• Agudat• Dash[9]
					1981 (10th)		19th	5 August 1981	10 October 1983	Likud• NRP• Agudat• Tami• Telem/MRSZ[9]• Tehiya[9]
7	Yitzhak Shamir יצחק שמיר		Likud	10 October 1983 - 13 September 1984			20th	10 October 1983	13 September 1984
8	Shimon Peres [4] שמעון פרס		Alignment	13 September 1984 - 20 October 1986	1984 (11th)		21st	13 September 1984	20 October 1986	Alignment• Likud• NRP• Agudat• Shas• Morasha[9]• Shinui• Ometz
(7)	Yitzhak Shamir [4] יצחק שמיר		Likud	20 October 1986 - 13 July 1992			22nd	20 October 1986	22 December 1988
					1988 (12th)		23rd	22 December 1988	11 June 1990	Likud• Alignment• NRP• Shas• Agudat• Degel HaTorah
							24th	11 June 1990	13 July 1992	Likud• NRP• Shas• Agudat• Degel HaTorah• New Liberal• Tehiya• Tzomet• Moledet• UPI• Geulat
(5)	Yitzhak Rabin יצחק רבין		Labor	13 July 1992 - 4 November 1995[5]	1992 (13th)		25th	13 July 1992	22 November 1995	Labor• Meretz• Shas[9]• Yiud[9]
(8)	Shimon Peres שמעון פרס		Labor	(4 November 1995)[5] 22 November 1995 - 18 June 1996
							26th	22 November 1995	18 June 1996
9	Benjamin Netanyahu בנימין נתניהו		Likud	18 June 1996 - 6 July 1999	1996	14th	27th	18 June 1996	6 July 1999	Likud-Gesher-Tzomet• Shas• NRP• BaAliyah• UTJ• Third Way
10	Ehud Barak אֵהוּד בָּרָק		One Israel Labor	6 July 1999 - 7 March 2001	1999	15th	28th	6 July 1999	7 March 2001	One Israel• Shas• Meretz• BaAliyah• Centre• NRP• UTJ[9]
11	Ariel Sharon אריאל שרון		Likud	7 March 2001 - (4 January 2006)[7]	2001		29th	7 March 2001	28 February 2003	Likud• Labor-Meimad[9]• Shas[9]• Centre• NRP• UTJ• BaAliyah• NU-Beiteinu• New Way• Gesher
					2003 (16th)		30th	28 February 2003	21 November 2005	Likud• Shinui[9]• NU[9]• NRP[9]• Labor-Meimad• Agudat[9]
			Kadima[6]	14 April 2006				21 November 2005	4 May 2006	Kadima• Likud[9]• Agudat
12	Ehud Olmert אהוד אולמרט		Kadima	(4 January 2006)[7] 14 April 2006 - 31 March 2009
					2006 (17th)		31st	4 May 2006	31 March 2009[8]	Kadima• Labor• Shas• Gil• Beiteinu[9]
(9)	Benjamin Netanyahu בנימין נתניהו		Likud	31 March 2009 - Incumbent	2009 (18th)		32nd	31 March 2009	Incumbent	Likud• Beiteinu• Shas• Labor/Indep.[9]• Jewish Home• UTJ[9]

Notes

¹ In 1965 Mapai merged with Ahdut HaAvoda to form the Labor Alignment, later renamed Alignment.

² Eshkol died while in office. Yigal Allon briefly served as Acting Prime Minister until he was replaced by Meir.

³ Rabin resigned and called for early elections in December 1976. After he was re-elected as the Alignment's leader, he resigned as candidate for the upcoming elections on 7 April 1977, but continued to serve as Prime Minister until Begin's first government was formed.

⁴ After the 1984 elections, Likud and the Alignment reached a coalition agreement by which the role of Prime Minister would be rotated mid-term between them. Shimon Peres of the Alignment served as Prime Minister for the first two years, and then the role was passed to Yitzhak Shamir. After the 1988 election Likud was able to govern without the Alignment, and Yitzhak Shamir became Prime Minister again.

⁵ Rabin was assassinated while in office. Shimon Peres served as Acting Prime Minister until 22 November 1995.

⁶ On 21 November 2005, Prime Minister Sharon, along with several other ministers and MKs, split from Likud over the issue of disengagement from the Gaza Strip and negotiations over the final status of the West Bank. Sharon formed a new party, Kadima, which would go on to compete in the following elections of March 2006. Sharon continued as Prime Minister.

⁷ As the result of Ariel Sharon suffering a severe stroke on 4 January 2006, and being put under general anaesthetic, Ehud Olmert served as the Acting Prime Minister (Hebrew: ממלא מקום ראש הממשלה בפועל) from 4 January to 14 April, according to Basic Law: The Government: "Should the Prime Minister be temporarily unable to discharge his duties, his place will be filled by the Acting Prime Minister. After the passage of 100 days upon which the Prime Minister does not resume his duties, the Prime Minister will be deemed permanently unable to exercise his office." Basic Law: the Governmet 2001, section 16b In Sharon's case, this occurred on 14 April 2006, upon which Olmert became Interim Prime Minister for the remainder of the 30th government, finally becoming full Prime Minister on the formation of the 31st government.

⁸ Olmert officially resigned on 21 September 2008. With this his cabinet became an interim government, and he was the "Interim" Prime Minister until the establishment of a new governing coalition (he was officially the Prime Minister, however, the government under him was an interim government, in this case).

⁹ The following parties were members of a government during only part of its term:

• 9th: Progress and Development and Cooperation and Brotherhood, two new parties, were members of the 9th government, which was otherwise identical in composition to the 7th and 8th governments.
• 13th: Gahal and Rafi joined 5 June 1967. Rafi merged into Labor (a member of the Alignment) 23 January 1968.
• 15th: Gahal stood down 6 August 1970.
• 17th: National Religious Party joined 30 October 1970; Ratz stood down 6 November 1970.
• 18th: Democratic Movement for Change joined October 1977.
• 19th: Tehiya joined 26 August 1981; the Movement for the Renewal of Social Zionism was formed 6 June 1983 following the break-up of Telem.
• 22nd: Morasha was not included in the 22nd government, which was otherwise identical in composition to the 21st government.
• 25th: Shas stood down 14 September 1993; Yiud joined 9 January 1995.
• 28th: United Torah Judaism stood down September 1999.
• 29th: Shas stood down 23 May 2002, returned 3 June; Labor-Meimad stood down 2 November 2002.
• 30th: National Religious Party joined 3 March 2003, stood down 11 November 2004; National Union stood down 6 June 2004; Shinui stood down 4 December 2004; Labor-Meimad joined 10 January 2005; Agudat Yisrael joined 30 March 2005; Kadima broke away from Likud and Labor-Meimad stood down 23 November 2005, leaving a government consisting of Kadima, Likud and Agudat Yisrael; Likud stood down 15 January 2006.
• 31st: Yisrael Beiteinu joined November 2006; stood down 16 January 2008.
• 32nd: United Torah Judaism joined 1 April 2009; Independence broke away from Labor 17 January 2011; Independence remained in the government and Labor stood down.

Watchlist

Please consider expanding your watchlist to include Template:Family tree of Ashikaga clan and Template talk:Family tree of Ashikaga clan#Reference source. --Tenmei (talk) 14:43, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

Chief ministers

Hi - Looking at your page, a few questions. First, should the Cabal be listed? The most important thing about that period is that there really wasn't a single chief minister. Arlington was probably the closest, as he was basically running foreign affairs, but none of them was dominant in domestic affairs. Second, I think that a lot of the men you list were not really the chief minister - specifically Godolphin 1684-1685, Belasyse, Montagu 1694-1699, Pembroke 1699-1702, Halifax 1714-1715, Carlisle, and Walpole 1715-1717. I don't think you'll find any reliable source that considers any of those men to have been the chief minister at those times. I think the indisputable cases of single chief ministers before 1730 (I don't think Walpole really qualifies even in the 1720s, given that Townshend was essentially his equal, and had full control of foreign policy) are Clarendon 1660-1667, Danby 1674-1679, Godolphin 1702-1710, and Harley 1710-1714. The rest are all arguable. I think that some consideration should be given to the people I listed in my original post. In the period after 1714, I think the situation is actually pretty clear, but doesn't fit a table all that well. From George I's arrival until 1716, Townshend was effectively the chief minister, even though he was being undermined for most of 1716 by Stanhope. Then, after a period of some confusion and uncertainty when there wasn't really a single leader, between early 1717 to early 1721, Stanhope and Sunderland were effectively joint leaders. Your 1718 switching point seems wrong to me. Yes, they exchanged offices that year, but the idea that Sunderland was serving under Stanhope from 1717 to 1718, and then Stanhope was serving under Sunderland from 1718 to 1721 can't really be defended.

On the whole, I think it would be good to both extend this list to earlier periods - people like Strafford, Buckingham, the Cecils, Northumberland, and Wolsey seem at least as deserving of listing as the later ones, and certainly more worthy of listing than someone like Belasyse or Carlisle, who weren't chief ministers any more than the Earl of Iddesleigh and William Henry Smith were prime ministers. I think there should also be much less of an effort to fill every gap. This was an unofficial post, and there were gaps. There's a useful list in a 1923 book by Viscount Mersey, who was an early 20th century politician and judge. He gives us, in the period in question, only Clarendon, Danby/Carmarthen twice (in 1673-1678 and again 1692-1695), Godolphin from 1702-1710, and Harley. For anyone beyond that, we should find sources. john k (talk) 00:31, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the comments. Personally, I like the entry for the Cabal, as it clarifies your point that no single individual was in charge. I agree that some of my entries, such as Belasyse, are dodgy: I followed the pre-existing templated list of ministries at the bottom of my page, which includes all of the ministries which I have listed. The situation is clear, but difficult to tabulate, from 1714 onwards. The problem with listing Townshend as chief minister is that he seems to have been an eminence grise, acknowledged as leader without formally holding office as leader, like Lord Carteret in Wilmington's ministry. I have listed Halifax, Carlisle and Walpole in this period in the Wilmington role (or, for a clearer example, in the Portland role in the Fox-North administration). I agree that Stanhope and Sunderland led jointly 1717–1721; I hope that the names of their ministries, and my explanation of this period in the introduction, makes this clear.

One of my arguments is that the post of "Prime Minister" gradually evolved from the Lord High Treasurer / First Lord of the Treasury post. Most of the people listed (though not all) were Lord High Treasurer or First Lord; with some exceptions, it seems to have been accepted that the Lord High Treasurer or First Lord had a significant claim to be in charge since Danby in 1674. Temple in 1679 is an odd entry, and doesn't really fit the run, but I found this early attempt at political reform extremely interesting, so I included it.

Finally, I lack the expertise to extend my own list further back than 1660, though I agree that this is desirable. BartBassist (talk) 07:54, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

Looking at your list, the only individuals I have missed (apart from Townshend, discussed above) are Sunderland 1684 and Shrewsbury 1695. I couldn't really find any rationale behind either of them. BartBassist (talk) 08:29, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

Hmm...do you have any sources that back up the idea that Carlisle, say, was viewed as the nominal head of the administration? I've just never seen anything that says anything like that, although I admit I'm not expert in the period. As far as Sunderland and Shrewsbury go, I believe I was basing that on their Oxford Dictionary of National Biography articles, but I no longer have access to the ODNB, so I can't say for sure. My sense, though, is that when Rochester was "kicked upstairs" in 1684, it was Sunderland, rather than Godolphin, who took effective charge of the ministry, and also that Sunderland was the effective chief minister for most of the reign of James II - certainly so after Rochester's resignation. Although he was arguably an eminence grise type, I'm not sure it's reasonable to distinguish a "formal" ministry head from an informal one at that point. The whole position was informal. As for Shrewsbury, that's a bit more questionable, but my sense was that Shrewsbury was more of a figurehead for the ministry than Montagu, in that he was the one who dealt with the king personally, and essentially served as the intermediary between the king and the Junto proper. That may not be quite right, but I think it's at least as right as the idea that Montagu was head of the ministry. But I guess finding sources is what we should really be doing at this point. john k (talk) 20:30, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

Let me add that I don't really think that First Lords of the Treasury (as opposed to Lord High Treasurers) were considered presumptive chief ministers until Walpole. Godolphin and Harley certainly were considered to be chief minister during their times as Lord Treasurer. But Poulett, who served as First Lord of the Treasury from 1710 to 1711, certainly was not. Neither was Godolphin during any of his stints as head of a treasury commission. john k (talk) 20:56, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

Japanese prime minister list

About http://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=User_talk:WhisperToMe&diff=cur

While I understand what was going on before, it feels strange to have a single page go against the MOS which is supposed to globally apply to all articles on EN. The usage of having "old" names be FN-GN and "new" ones be GN-FN happens in many places. The only reason why the prime minister list is so different is because, as you said, some of those figures are only a few years apart

Perhaps the solution is to say "People born after Meiji 1 have their family name last, people born before then have the family name first" - All of the figures have their dates of birth included, so people can tell via the birth year. WhisperToMe (talk) 17:13, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

While if I had to choose having them all in the same order, I would prefer them all to be GN-FN (after all the practice of name switching started in Meiji) - It may be a good idea to mention this on the MOS-JA talk page to see what others think too WhisperToMe (talk) 18:31, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

Thank you very much :) WhisperToMe (talk) 01:53, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

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Talk:Chinese emperors family tree (middle)

See my proposal at Talk:Chinese emperors family tree (middle) to include distant (and prominent) ancestors of Tang emperors.Sonny Fin (talk) 02:11, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

Suggestion about List of German president

Try to remodel it somehow to completely remove from the article List of acting heads of state section. I think its quite unnecessary now, when all officeholders (regular and acting) are part of their main lists. Also, put the pictures of acting officeholders to their place at main lists. Cheers! --Sundostund (talk) 15:24, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

I just remodeled it myself, I hope you'll like it. It took quite a time to make it as it is now, I must say. --Sundostund (talk) 22:01, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

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family tree help

I have completed the full family tree for the tang dynasty emperors, including all their ancestors dating back to Laozi (actually there are a few cadet branches I'd like to add like Li Bai's branch, but he is not a direct ancestor so that can wait). The problem is that the lines on the tree are skewed slightly to the left and therefore straight lines like the one from gaozu to taizong do not align properly, can you fix it? Talk:Chinese_emperors_family_tree_(middle)#tang_dynasty_family_tree.28incomplete.29 Mr reems 45kg (talk) 07:28, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Blimey, good effort. As far as I can see, the only way to fix this one is to cut the family tree in half (immediately above Gaozu). I'll have a go. BartBassist (talk) 02:18, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

Nomination of Genealogical relationships of Prime Ministers of the United Kingdom for deletion

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List of Presidents of the United States

Bart, in looking through the talk archives I see you made a list which included an overview of each president (and was promptly reverted a day later - without much explanation). I strongly prefer your layout, and wondered if you ever thought of trying it again? Hoof Hearted (talk) 17:17, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

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ArbCom elections are now open!

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