User talk:Baristarim/Archive 8

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Circumflex

According to the circumflex article:

Turkish. Until recently, the modern (Latin-based) Turkish alphabet introduced in the time of Mustafa Kemal Atatürk used the circumflex accent to indicate when a vowel was to be pronounced in a way more native (usually by stretching it out somewhat) to Persian and Arabic. Words featuring such an accent, such as kâtib "scribe", ilâhî "divine", or Kâmile (a woman's name) are generally loanwords distinguishable from true Turkish words, and were represented easily in the Arabic script used in the Ottoman Turkish language.

And from Turkish alphabet:

Optional circumflex accents can be used with "â", "î" and "û" to disambiguate words with different meanings but otherwise the same spelling (for example, while "kar" means "snow", "kâr" means "profit"), or to indicate palatalization of a preceding consonant, or long vowels in loanwords, particularly from Arabic. These are seen as variants of "a", "i", and "u" and are becoming quite rare in modern usage.

That being said, do you think it was correct to move İstiklal Avenue to İstiklâl Avenue, and Hakkari to Hakkâri? You'll notice that the articles from the Turkish Wikipedia don't use this type of accent mark, unless it's for historical figures such as Hasan Âli Yücel. What do you think? (knowing that you're busy with the Turkey article, you don't have to reply right away) Cheers, Khoikhoi 00:56, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

BTW, would you be able to help me out with a question at Talk:Kuştul Monastery? Thanks, Khoikhoi 05:49, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Turkey FAC

It was a great job; I believe you reach to the end of your efforts. Is there anything left besides the stability? I recognize that no one adds to the content. It may be help full 4u to argue that content have reached to its maturity. Emphasize that vandalism is part of the reality. Judges had to make a distinction (maturity-vandalism) on this article. --OttomanReference 06:48, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

This is for your excellent work...

I wanted you to see the articles under the wikiTurkey; I think this can not be achieved without your efforts... I really appriciate what you have been doing. Thanks!--OttomanReference 08:43, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Turkey articles by quality and importance
Quality	Importance
	Top	High	Mid	Low	NA	???	Total
FA	1	4	4	4			13
FL	1			4			5
A			3	1			4
GA	1	8	40	76		9	134
B	20	69	246	250		83	668
C	28	79	356	835		313	1,611
Start	9	112	2,064	4,916		2,126	9,227
Stub		10	504	20,651		6,960	28,125
List	1	15	309	372	35	363	1,095
Category				114	13,207		13,321
Disambig					592		592
File					194		194
Portal					18		18
Project					16		16
Redirect		15	68	380	1,012		1,475
Template				1	1,358		1,359
NA				6	5		11
Other					80		80
Assessed	61	312	3,594	27,610	16,517	9,854	57,948
Unassessed				13		1,211	1,224
Total	61	312	3,594	27,623	16,517	11,065	59,172
WikiWork factors (?)		ω = 223,605			Ω = 5.62

Request for Feedback

Hello, I am trying to improve the article Hamparsum Limonciyan. I made a request for feedback Wikipedia:Requests_for_feedback. Any pointers you might have as to what the article needs would be appreciated. --Free smyrnan 08:51, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Alanya

Thanks for the encouragement! One section I would like to add to complete the package would be Politics. Except for my meetings with the mayor and once with the state appointed governor, I know little about local politics. Do you know of any sites that have election data or maps for the region? Preferably in English? Otherwise my only concern with the article is citation, since many observations are not verifiable. --Patrickneil 17:44, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Re:Selam

Hi, thanks for your offer about Portal:Turkey. It would be great if you could help me with the "Anniversaries" section. Its link will be like Portal:Turkey/Anniversaries/January for this month. Also "Did you know" and "News" sections need to be updated. I presume you already know the test page Portal:Turkey/Test as you worked on it two days ago.So, size de mutlu yıllar ve kolay gelsin. By the way, congratulations about the Turkey article, another FA for our project --Bugtrio | Talk 16:42, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

I have explained myself in the rv. The project is relatively new, and no pages where created (templates, etc) until the name change. Chaldean 20:01, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Listen, how about you stop rving? Because it will most likely get approved, thus I have to go back and rv all of your edits again. Please stop, your not making it easy. I will go to the board your talking about, but stop rving, because this will stop me from contuning the work. I need to be adding to these pages, and with the name change, it will rv the whole thing. Chaldean 20:10, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Baristarim, please stop. I am going to the board right now, but your going to make this so difficult if you change everything. Chaldean 20:14, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Baristarim, I didnt even get a approval for Wikiproject Assyrian people. I didn't even know you had to? So can you halt everything for couple hours? Let me see what I can do. Chaldean 20:15, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

I have left a message in the wikiproject council page and you better promise to your word of I can fix them either way, no worries - because it took me lots and lots of time to connect everything. Yes, their are many assyrian related pages that are horrible, including Assyrian genocide, where nobody even seems to care about its status. The page is horrible, and to be honest with you, if I had it my way I would delete the whole page, because it just a bunch of words put together, with no organization, etc. Chaldean 20:27, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

See now you have my hopes down that this will get shot down. I feel so dumb putting so much time, without thinking abou getting an approval first. You should've notifed me the first time you saw the project. Chaldean 20:37, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

I explained the reason for my move here [[1]] - Ancient Assyrian pages are literraly non-existant. Chaldean 20:59, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

www.harunyahya.com

http://www.harunyahya.com/miracles_of_the_quran_01.php slm.

Istanbul

Istanbul is in improvement stage, there is already a lot of improvements. Such as labeled map is developed, standardized climate table, standard "City" sections such as cityscape, demographics, utilities. And most important article is improved from two citations to twenty. Help us to improve the article. Thanks.--OttomanReference 14:52, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Reverts and deletions

Hi Baris. I know that u are trying not to increase tensions, and that this is why u remove comments like this, but i think that other wikipedians involved in these articles should see such comments, so as to know what they have to deal with... I suppose we are not evading any WP policy if we live it there... Hectorian 16:05, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

This is why i am advising you not to remove such comments; because u could be accused of "hiding comments for unknown reasons"... I would propose to let alone the users who make such comments... After all, they should be the ones to defend themselves or to deal with the polemic nature of comments that their own have caused. That article has indeed become a battleground, but IMO, every user involved there should be responsible for his comments, if not, he/she should not press "Save page":p. But that is just my opinion:) Hectorian 16:32, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Re: Deletion

Please do not use such surveys, they are not part of the wikiprocess. AfDs on that subject were closed just this morning, and deletions are not decided upon such surveys in the talk pages of articles. I reverted your deletion surveys, please do not do it again since they are not helpful to Wikipedia and can be disruptive. Baristarim 17:03, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

...not helpful to Wikipedia and can be disruptive in what aspect exactly? Do you mean it is disruptive to falsification of the terms Turco-Persian and Turko-Persian Tradition? What you guys are afraid of - Truth?

PS. Sorry to burst your bubble, in your User page you claim that Tarim basin was occupied by Turks! However, Tarim Basin was not occupied by Turks, but Indo-European peoples. Read The Tarim Mummies, by J. P. Mallory and Victor H. Moir, ISBN 0-500-05101-1. This is what I’m talking about desperately in need of a historical legitimacy! Surena 17:33, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

What I meant was the fact that you have to follow Wikipedia procedure for deleting articles - you cannot simply call for a poll in an article's talk page. Please see WP:AfD for more information on the correct procedure to follow; two AfDs were speedily kept this morning, trying to open new surveys in the talk pages is not appropriate.

And try not to make this personal please and try refrain from using expressions like "you guys" or "sorry to burst your bubble". Focus on content, not people. Thank you. Baristarim 19:12, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

By the way, the bar thingy that I borrowed from Wiki Turkey is just a temparery. I just wanted something nice for right now to attract users, but I do want a unique one for the Assyrian project. Are you good with this stuff? :) I was going to try to do something, but I really dont know much about how you do these things. Chaldean 02:54, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Also, how do I make the font size smaller for this [[2]]? Thanks. Chaldean 03:15, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Dear Barış, Please check Template:Districts of Turkey(New) and Istanbul Province for application. Looking forward for your oppinions.Regards.Must^TC 12:24, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Using English

Hello - I'm contacting you because of your involvement with using English instead of foreign terms in articles. A few are trying to "Anglicise" French terms in Wiki articles according to current guidelines but there is some resistance (eg/: "Région => Region"; "Département => Departement"). Your input would be extremely appreciated here and is requested. Thankyou. --Bob 16:26, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Hi

I just wanted to make sure that you have read this--Pejman47 18:59, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

The WPTR

I think the template WPTR with the Turkish flag generates a specific perception at every talk page. I'm trying to bring a neutral perspective. I do not want to be seen as against nationalism. Remember project collects Ottoman Empire, Seljuk , etc. If in the future, this project becomes a place to attract attention, we should expect people from different nations. For Ottoman Empire, isn't it possible to create an Ottoman Empire work group! Isn't it a better idea to have a symbol that does not put the nationalism on the front page. I have no idea what that symbol would be. Just hoping you are better in this issue and find a solution. --OttomanReference 19:03, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

National Front (France)

Not a big deal... but I left a message on Talk:National Front (France). Cheers! Tazmaniacs 00:53, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Salut! je suis plus autant sur Wiki qu'avant, mais je garde un oeil... If you have any trouble, or hear some interesting things about far right movements, including (especially?) about Turkey (such as the Grey Wolves or Abdullah Çatlı, where vandalism is fairly current...), I'll be interested... We must watch them. Leave me a note if needs be... and point out to me any reference or interesting news article, in any language, which might be of some real interest. Teshikur! Tazmaniacs

Al sana nişan

		Mecidi Order
		I, Doktor Gonzo award you the Mecidi Order for your efforts to bring Turkey to FA status! --Doktor Gonzo 11:53, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

I wasted half hour for this. I dare you to not like it.--Doktor Gonzo 11:53, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

How is it going?--Doktor Gonzo 23:29, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Check out Jeltz, I love sarcasm.--Doktor Gonzo 23:55, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Hrant Dink

You wrote: I am sure the state will do all that it can, and the Turkish society at large will support it. There is no need to lose faith :) Baristarim 23:42, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

I didn't want to start a political discussion on the Hrant Dink talk page, but I just had to say in response to your comment above - some of the initial reactions by the public were certainly unexpected by me and I hope are a sign of things to come. The state however is the very instrument that tried him multiple times for a crime he never committed (insulting Turkishness) and convicted him of, and upheld the conviction on appeal. The state continues to subvert the truth, free speech, and gave massive negative publicity to a man who otherwise would never have been heard of, and never shot. It is the state that caused this, whether they find the hand that carried out their agenda of silence or not. I am still shocked by the news. Still shocked by the image of him face down in a pool of blood. He sat right behind me in September and I was too shy to talk to him... instead we exchanged a few emails in October. I can't believe I will never get a chance to talk to him. That a kid assassinated him. What a loss... --RaffiKojian 00:47, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Well the "initial intent" of the government as you put it, was to silence him. The end result was in fact just that. Permanent silence. Let's see if the small Armenian community can even find another person with the leadership qualities he had, and let us see if that leader is willing to stick his neck out like Hrant did. Both seem quite unlikely to me - I suspect he is irreplaceable. I must say most Turks I have interacted with just don't want to remember "what happened". Many might be willing to reach out, but usually (not always!) only if that subject is not mentioned, not brought up, not discussed, or not fully acknowledged. Most Turks are not quite like you. He comes to Yerevan for conferences where I see him - including in September when he was sitting right behind me in a very empty area of seating in the back two rows. My friend Garegin Chukazyan knew him in person and offered to introduce us, and I did not want to bother him and declined. His views were so interesting to me - I would have loved to discuss them at length... as you know, he held somewhat different views on how to proceed than the vast majority of Diasporans. --RaffiKojian 01:39, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

I rearranged the sentences in the 'Assassination' section[3]. It is a quote from his weekly column in Agos. It is from the same article, right? so, no need to split it in two sentences and have another one between them... Hectorian 14:27, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

To be honest, I did not know much about him till yesterday; and I suppose I had not heard about him before 2006. Unfortunately, I began to read about him, following this tragic event... He really seems to had been a really interesting person. Keep up the good work, Baris:) Hectorian 14:44, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Here we go

		The Original Barnstar
		lets just say it had to be done. Fad (ix) 03:41, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

It is not my type to give barnstars, I have given very few of those, since I find those sort of things dumb. But lets just say you're intelligent and you'll probably not see me doing that again. :) Fad (ix) 03:41, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Hrant Dink'i öldürenin yaşı

Merhaba Barış,

Hürriyet gazetesindeki haber de saldırganın 20 yaşlarında olduğunun üzerinde durmuş. Şurdan görebilirsin.

Bu arada Türkiye maddesinin seçkin statüsü almasındaki emeklerinden dolayı, tebrikler.

Sevgiler

Vito Genovese 10:13, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Maps,template

Dear Barış, A new template cteated Template:Districts of Turkey which is generates automatically province, distric,region maps in the page. Problem is; names of maps( genarally include English letters) and name of page(generally include Turkish letters) are different. A radical solution is to change names of photos with the names in Pagenames. How I can do that. Is it possible to download(from common) maps, changing names and upload again.What about copright problem.? I need an urgent help Regards Must^TC 13:16, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Turkey

You mean the island nation of Cyprus is not to the south of Turkey? Aristovoul0s 16:41, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

If you noticed i deleted "borders with nine countries" that i had initially wrote back to "eight" and made an addition that there is an island nation on the south of Turkey. True verifiable fact. I dont understand why you see this as major POV issue. I also dont understand why you say this is not encyclopedic. Aristovoul0s 16:48, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

As i see you are the one that had the most champagne at the time of the FA (Turkey), let me ask you this. is the island nation of Cyprus to the south of Turkey? Aristovoul0s 17:03, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

What exactly do you mean by "nationality has to be in the lead" for this Turkish Armenian business? I don't see what you're trying to say. Evlekis 17:08, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Template talk:Cyprus-stub

ok bro, I'm not the kind of person who provokes other people and I really apologize for my behaviour but I cannot forget some very serious incidents. Anyway, we are all members of these encyclopedia and we are supposed to keep these confrontations out of here. I hope we'll be able to cooperate in the future. See ya :)--KaragouniS 00:55, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks

Hope you did not take my comment the wrong way though, I had just meant that the debate on his religion could be decided from his articles. --Free smyrnan 01:18, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

regarding the casualties

I guess this, but was there a decision, voting for changing the name of the article, if you can check this move and also what would be the best way with this? [4]. OttomanReference 04:31, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Mediation of Atat?rk High School of Science

Onganer has put forth a mediation request on the disagreement between you on the title of this article. I've accepted this case and am interested in hearing your interpretation of Wikipedia's naming policy as it relates to the title of this article. When you get a moment, could you please explain your point of view on that mediation request's project page? Thanks. Flakeloaf 05:11, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, if he did consider himself Turkish Armenian, then that is fair enough. The confusion is caused by peoples misconception as to what nationality really means. In English it is neither clear (two distinct meanings), nor grasped by the stupid departments who make the enquiry as to "what is your nationality". But from your part of the world, and my adjacent region (historically linked with Turkey anyhow), we don't suffer from that confusion. Personally I would have opted to give him two seperate sections such as: Nationality: Turkish; Ethnicity: Armenian. Or another more defining example is: Citizenship or legal status: to Turkey; Nationality/Ethnicity/Affiliation etc: Armenian. But like you said on the side note, if Armenians of Turkey choose to distinguish themselves both from Armenian Armenians and all ethnic Turks, then "Armenian Turk" is acceptable. I was only suggesting something here and I'll leave it to you! I shalln't edit the article on that section again :) Evlekis 08:33, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Grand National Assembly of Turkey

Have you finished your work on this article? It hasn't seen an edit in 3 days. If you're done please remove the {{majoredit}} template. Thanks. --dm ^(talk) 09:50, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Said Nursi

Risale-i Nur ticari amaçla basılan bir eser değildir. Böyle olsaydı internet üzerinden tamamı bedava yayınlanıyor olmazdı. Amacı sadece iman kurtarmaktır. Bir ateistin bunları anlaması biraz zor olsa da anlamanı beklemekten başka yapabileceğim birşey yok. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by OnurtheAgha (talk • contribs) 12:45, 21 January 2007 (UTC).

Ottoman Muslim Casualties of WWI

What did Nikos person do to the article? Is there a problem?--Doktor Gonzo 13:27, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

TfD nomination of Template:Districts of Turkey

Template:Districts of Turkey has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you.Must^TC 17:46, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Hrant Dink

Hello! I understand the concern the death of Hrant Dink has brought to you. That is why I am just leaving a reminder that fair use images should be used exclusively in the article namespace while, in other situations, I would have removed it. After a prudential time, please consider just linking to his article, as keeping the image in your user page may encourage others to do the same and, while it is a good tribute, it goes against one of our core policies. Thank you, and stay safe. -- ReyBrujo 18:11, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Re: Hi

Looks like Fut.Perf. is already handling the situation. Yeah, and I never knew we'd have a mediation about something like this. :-) Oh well, Khoikhoi 20:01, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Genocide

Hi. Got your message. I'm a little confused. You have a picture of this brave journalist on your page, yet you're suggesting that we hold back until it is unprotected.

I doubt it will ever be Unprotected again. This subject has been a hot topic for nearly 100 years, and that isn't likely to change.

Already, though, we see that the events since 1960 or so have not been chronicled. It will be all the more difficult to remember them if we do not chronicle them in some fashion. At least my Talk comment puts it there. We must never forget the genocide attempt, because we're destined to repeat those mistakes which we do not remain mindful of. (Even then, there are fools like GW Bush to push us to the brink of disaster by willful use of unnecessary force.) So I feel it is important to show that this continues, and that people continue to be killed and lied to even today.

Respectfully,

JT --JT 08:01, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

P.S. Ask me in private for the full name. I still haven't figured out how to leave someone a private message here.

Sorry to bother you again

There is now an RfC open on the subject of using English in French administrative division articles. I don't expect you to contribute much time to this, but if you can, could you please voice a statement and disagree/agree with those statements found there. Maybe we will arrive at a reasonable conclusion soon. It can be found here. Thanks in advance. --Bob 21:59, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Page moves

Hi, just to remind you of 3RR there, it applies to page moves (at least) as strictly as to other reverts. In case someone asks: I'd suggest that your moves from 15:25 and 22:38 should count as one, because the first was technically mistaken and my intervening move back was an uncontroversial housekeeping repair. Otherwise, you'd already be beyond 3RR. Fut.Perf. ☼ 23:34, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

January 2007

1. You have violated the three-revert rule on Ottoman casualties of the World War 1. Any administrator may now choose to block your account. In future, please make an effort to discuss your changes further in the future, instead of edit warring. _→AzaToth 23:43, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Two things

1. Kuştul Monastery: I think it's better to just use the word "expelled", rather than using the whole phrase, "population exchange between Greece and Turkey." First off, it's pretty long, and secondly, I don't think the Greeks really wanted to leave, and the word "exchange" makes it seem like it was some fair thing that went on. "Expel" just means to eject, and I think it's a pretty neutral term in this sense.
2. When I think of the word "Turkish" used for a person of Kurdish ethnicity, I usually don't think "they're a Turkish citizen", but "they are probably an assimilated Kurd". Although there is not the slightest hint of Kurdish nationalism in Organize işler, it turns out that he has been touched to some degree by the Kurdish nationalist movement:

   In 1980, two young men from Hakkari, taking a stroll in Aksaray, met a fellow countryman, Firat Baskale.

   Baskale was a revolutionary musician whose voice was similar to that of Sivan Perwer (the most popular of Kurdish musicians). At F. Baskale’s invitation they went to the hotel where he was working

   These young men had such a strong longing for Kurdish music that Firat, looked around suspiciously to see if there was anyone around “If anyone hears us, we’ll be denounced and our lives won’t be worth a light” he warned them.

   Then he led them to a dark and tiny room in the hotel cellars and picking up his guitar sang in Kurdish.

   A few minutes later these two young men, certainly as frightened as if they had been taking part in an illegal demonstration, felt as happy as if they were back in their native mountains.

   One of these youths was none other than Yilmaz Erdogan. As for the other, he was Muhsin Kizilkaya, who, some years later mentioned this incident in his biography of Erdogan

Khoikhoi 04:11, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

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TfD nomination of Template:Districts of Turkey

Template:Districts of Turkey has been nominated for deletion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Pls. Take a look. Regards. Must^TC 15:40, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

My problem with the template is that it is a) large and confusing and more importantly b) these regions are not official classifications, there is no government of the 'Aegean region' for example. Turkey is administered ate national, provincial and district levels. I would be happy if the entry for each province contained a) a list of the districts in the province b) a list of the 81 provinces and then c) your list of regions, which can link to an entry listing the provinces within the region and a geographical description.

But I do think it is great that the Turkish content on wikipedia is growing and congratulations to you, Mustafa Akalp and everyone else writing about Turkey here. Istanbuljohnm 09:42, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

The regions are very much official. Google is our guide. Ege Bölgesi gives 1.290.000 hits, Aegean region 1.260.000. Weak statement.--Doktor Gonzo 09:57, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Agree, the regions are referred to quite clearly in the state budget, geographical info etc. They are not "administrative", however they are still regions.

Dear both - the regionsmay be popular with the users of google but the Turkish postal system has no recognition of them at all. Refer to them by all means but don't put them as a category above the province in a hierarchy. Keep up the good work Istanbuljohnm 21:01, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Istanbuljohnm - a good friend of mine here is from Ankara, and she tells me that they use the regions as reference - postal service or not, they are used - not in a hierarchy, but there is no suggestion of hierarchy, simply a useful positioning (they are well explained in the article). Rarelibra 04:46, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

By the way, this has been moved back to its original location status quo ante after the AfD, after a techincal problem was solved. Baristarim 22:43, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

So, what is going on with that page? I am fine with the current title except that I still think that there should be a different subarticle for the Muslim Millet. Bu konuda yalniz olmaktan da sıkıldım ne diyeyim, o sayfa da ne gibi çalismalar yapmayi dusunuyorsun? Ona gore yardim edebilirim ama ne yazik ki o sayfaya en çok zaman harcayan editor sen oldugun için senin goruslerini de almak istiyorum... Thanks Baristarim 15:09, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

There was a need to cover the casualties of the Ottoman Empire, sure. It is a valid concept. Question is how to do it without turning it into edit wars? In a perfect world, each issue would have developed their concepts in separate spaces, such as Armenians did. However, it is obvious (and realized) that there is too much at risk on the Muslim side. If you read the private conversations, you will see that it bothers everyone. I believe you can not reach a holistic picture here. It is also difficult in scientific world, too. After 82 years, there is no single book that covers WWI Ottoman Casualties, only distributed papers. They treat it like an insignificant concept! So 5,0000,000 people died, who cares, they concentrate only what is significant to them. The article in its form (holistic), will be under delete and deform attacks. No one is willing to develop a holistic concept, and they do not have knowledge. I do not give much chance, to a holistic approach. Look what happened when it was in pieces. Most people prefer it keep in minimal. Hope I would be wrong.OttomanReference 15:39, 23 January 2007 (UTC)