Template talk:Sonic the Hedgehog

Organisation of main series games

Hi, I edited the template to organise the main series games into 2D and 3D, as opposed to console and handheld; however, this was reverted by User:TheJoebro64. I think it makes more sense to organise by 2D/3D since readers are probably more concerned with the differences in games rather than what hardware they appeared on. I think this is an especially strange way to organise these games considering many of the console games have appeared on handheld consoles, whether as later ports or different versions. For example, Sonic Colors released on the Wii and DS on the same day yet it's only listed under console. Not a major issue either way, just my thoughts. :) TehRYNOL (talk) 18:39, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

That doesn't strike me as ideal with so many titles moving back and forth between 2D and 3D. Sergecross73 msg me 18:55, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

When I did my edit I based it off of this page: List of Sonic the Hedgehog video games. I think it's more ideal than basing it off of hardware. I think the way it is now is sort of falsely implying there aren't any handheld versions of Sonic Colors, Generations, Lost World, and even the upcoming Frontiers on Switch. TehRYNOL (talk) 19:04, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

Colors, Generations, and Lost World were primarily console games, and the handheld versions don't have their own articles. And the Switch is treated primarily as a home console on Wikipedia. There's a clear distinction between the console and handheld Sonic games; they were handled by separate teams and meant for different hardware, and we shouldn't be listing things like Sonic Blast or Pocket Adventure alongside the big console releases. JOEBRO⁶⁴ 19:21, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

I mean fair, but Colors, Generations, and Lost World are also primarily 3D games by the same argument, at least as far as I'm concerned. I know that's a subjective take, but my point is that saying a game is primarily a console game is also quite subjective. Why shouldn't Sonic Blast or Pocket Adventure be listed alongside the "big console releases"? They already are - as they're clearly listed as main series games. Saying something is made by different teams would also mean there's issues with listing Sonic CD, 3D Blast, Sonic 4, and Sonic Mania for example. Like I see what you're getting at, and I do kind of agree, but I think the way it's listed now is less helpful than if it were organised by 2D and 3D. I think there's also a much more difficult question pertaining to what exactly makes something a "main series" game that maybe influences this decision-making somewhat, but I don't think that's really solvable unfortunately. Regardless, that's all I'll say on that. Thanks! TehRYNOL (talk) 20:26, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

One of the reasons it was set up this way because generally people group together the Genesis games and the Game Gear games, and all the Sonic Chaos/Triple tithes interspersed in between Sonic 2/3/Knuckles. Both approaches have good and bad parts to them. Unfortunately it's difficult to come up with ways to organize a template this large that 100% works without exceptions and is understandable with absolutely no context. Sergecross73 msg me 20:48, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

Whether a game is a console game has been very clear prior to the Nintendo Switch console generation. The Sonic main series games had a separate product line between for (home) console and for handheld, and this navbox's organization reflected that pretty well. Any Sonic game that does not have a home console release (except for emulation and compilation releases) is listed under handheld. Reorganizing the games into 2D vs. 3D creates gray areas: What about pseudo-3D isometric platformers (Sonic 3D Blast)? And how about games that have 3D graphics but play area restricted to 2D (Sonic Rush)? That's more subjective than the current console vs. handheld approach. Explorer09 (talk) 06:13, 13 October 2022 (UTC)

Update: I found out that separating 2D and 3D in the "Console" row is a pretty good idea. I take back my original comment. However, I would mark that the 2D and 3D table rows refer to gameplay only so as to minimize confusion. The example formatting can look like this:

--Explorer09 (talk) 09:36, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

I've reverted the change, as I was opposed to this back in 2022, and remain opposed. Its making this overly complicated. There's no reason to overclassify like this. It's also erroneous, as there's lots of 2D gameplay in a number of the "3D" entries. (Generations, Lost World, Colors, etc.) Sergecross73 msg me 16:50, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

Yeah I don't really see the utility here either. Popcornfud (talk) 17:07, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

Sonic Dream Team

Why is it in the mobile spin-off category? It's not a mobile-exclusive game, as it's also on macOS and tvOS. Ian Flynn also stated that it's part of the official Sonic timeline, unlike the mobile games, so it's clearly some levels above games like Sonic Runners or Sonic Dash. Endianer (talk) 03:11, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

How do reliable sources generally classify it? We usually go more by that tan crusty reasons like "fictional timelines". I honestly don't know the answer to my question, so I can do some digging if need be... Sergecross73 msg me 03:14, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

The point is that it's not a "standard" mobile game. Regardless of how relevant or irrelevant the timeline is for the categorization criteria, the fact Sega specifically labeled it as canon when it called all the mobile games non-canon sets it apart from them and tells us that Sega sees it as more "significant".

Canon status aside, its game structure and gameplay are also more involved and less casual than the mobile games', and closer to the main series.

As for your question, beats me. I don't think Sega has commented on whether it's mainline or not, but I haven't specifically looked into it. Endianer (talk) 12:47, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

I understand it's not a "standard mobile" game, I'm just saying you haven't andvancec any sort of valid argument towards moving it to the standard mainline entry section either. Sergecross73 msg me 13:00, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

Was there even any discussion on the game's status? Or was it just thrown into the mobile spin-off category because it was seen as another mobile game? Endianer (talk) 14:42, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

Prior to Sonic Dream Team, Sega didn't release any mobile Sonic platform game that is considered "canon" to the main series. The endless runner and Doodle Jump-like variants of platformers are obvious spin-offs. The fact that Sega didn't consider a console release of Sonic Dream Team confuses me, as any Sonic mainline game ought to have a console release and making it mobile exclusive doesn't make sense. My personal opinion is to wait. If Sega ever announce a console release of Sonic Dream Team then we can move it to mainline; otherwise keep it as is for now. --Explorer09 (talk) 07:34, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

Pocket Adventure

I think Sonic Pocket Adventure needs to be moved to the "Spin-offs" section rather than placed in the main series. According to Ian Flynn (per this episode of his podcast), when writing the Encyclo-speed-ia guide book, he was explicitly prohibited from even mentioning Pocket Adventure or referring to it by name due to unspecified legal issues with the game. Unlike other games on this list like 3D Blast where people have argued whether they count as mainline due to "vibes" or whatever, this seems like a pretty explicit case of Sega saying "this is not only not a mainline game, but we take no ownership of it whatsoever", and should be classified accordingly. -- Cyberlink420 (talk) 15:40, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

I'd never heard of that before. I have no objections to moving it. Sergecross73 msg me 16:52, 19 November 2024 (UTC)