Template talk:Infobox diocese

Template-protected edit request on 22 June 2022

Please add the parameters to the Location section of this infobox as per discussion above:
1.Episcopal Conference, beneath territory, and
2.Ecclesiastical region, above ecclesiastical province. Thank you! Vesuvio14 (talk) 21:47, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

Please replace all code in {{Infobox diocese}} ← {{Infobox diocese/sandbox}} (diff).

New parameters:

• |episcopal conference=
• |ecclesiastical region=

Test: Template:Infobox diocese/testcases § Tests (Jun 2022)

Below I logged the preparations. -DePiep (talk) 18:15, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

Todo: adjust documentation. -DePiep (talk) 18:16, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

Preparing

• Preparing in {{Infobox diocese/sandbox}}:

Test: Template:Infobox diocese/testcases § Tests (Jun 2022)

Expect (the new paramters are in sequence):

territory = _1 territory
[[Episcopal conference]] = _2 episcopal conference
[[Ecclesiastical region]] = _3 ecclesiastical region
province =_4 province

New parameters:

• |episcopal conference=
• |ecclesiastical region=

-DePiep (talk) 18:11, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

/sandbox Ready

Y. Sandbox is ready. See testcases and diff. @Vesuvio14:.

-DePiep (talk) 18:11, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

@DePiep: That’s all perfect! Vesuvio14 (talk) 21:46, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

 Not done for now: looks like a consensus needs to be established for this alteration. Please garner the needed consensus before using the {{edit template-protected}} template again. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. ^put'r there 15:08, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

Consensus has been established, see discussion above. Vesuvio14 (talk) 15:13, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

Yes, I read that, but all I see is some discussion about this with several suggestions, and I cannot discern a consensus for these edits. It appears that more discussion is needed to clarify the need for this edit. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. ^put'r there 15:23, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

@Paine Ellsworth: I have re-opened this request on the basis that three months without any ideas to the contrary might constitute a silent consensus. If this is the case, please could the previously discussed changes be implemented? Thank you! Vesuvio14 (talk) 15:27, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

Okay, we can see if it continues to "stick". P.I. Ellsworth , ed. ^put'r there 16:56, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

Brilliant, thank you so much! Vesuvio14 (talk) 19:00, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

'headquarters' parameter required?

In the Visual Editor, the "headquarters" parameter is marked as required (with an asterisk) and if I do not fill it in before "applying" changes to an infobox diocese, the VE crashes with a modal dialog. Why/how is this parameter required? I have not encountered it on Roman Catholic diocesan articles, and I wouldn't really know how to fill it in. Please make this parameter optional. Elizium23 (talk) 20:19, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

Agreed! It being a required param is frustrating when VE-editing Episcopal diocesan articles too. Ductwork (talk) 01:47, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

Template-protected edit request on 26 July 2022

Stop requiring "headquarters" parameter. It is unused in several major use-cases, including Catholic and Anglican. Elizium23 (talk) 01:58, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

Think that is governed by the TemplateData section on the /doc page, so it should now be  done, i.e., "suggested" instead of "required" from this edit to the /doc page, which is not protected. So if this change needs to be made in other template documentation, please remember this procedure, because you will likely be able to fix it yourself. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. ^put'r there 03:04, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

Ah, thanks! Yeah, I didn't really know where that requirement was coming from. I'll keep this in mind! Elizium23 (talk) 03:10, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

my pleasure! Paine  03:17, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

Adding an "attendance" parameter?

What do editors think about the addition of a parameter for "attendance" under the statistics section of the infobox? Average weekly/Sunday attendance is a documented metric in the Anglican Church of Canada, Episcopal Church, Church of Ireland, Anglican Church in North America, etc., and its inclusion where figures are available provides a valuable data point for understanding the subject of the article. Dclemens1971 (talk) 17:41, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

OPPOSED You can add it. But to what purpose? And where do you find the data? More categories does not necessarily make a better infobox, Vicedomino (talk) 07:59, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

parameter "Catholics"

On the "Catholics" parameter, the parenthetical remark "(including non-members)" has unclear meaning – it isn't clear what "non-members" refers to in this context. I guess it is trying to say that the figure may contain "lapsed Catholics" who no longer consider themselves "Catholic". However, whether or not that's true in any case depends on where the figure is coming from. For example, for Australian Catholic dioceses, the number is probably coming from the optional religion question on the Australian census – since identifying as "Catholic" on the census is completely voluntary, it seems reasonable to assume that any adult ticking the "Catholic" box actually considers Catholicism to (in some sense) be their religion, at least at the time they filled out the census (once every 5 years). So, for Australian Catholic dioceses, whatever this confusing phrase is trying to say, is probably incorrect. However, for Catholic dioceses in other countries – since there are numerous ways of counting "who is Catholic", it is possible some of those ways are including people who view themselves as "ex-Catholic". But, here's the thing – if we put this kind of proviso in the template, it ends up everywhere, even in cases where it is wrong; if it is wrong in some cases, it doesn't belong in the template. Added to that, from a Catholic viewpoint, "members" is not really the right terminology – Catholicism does not have a notion of "membership" as such. It is really taking a term which makes sense in secular contexts, or maybe even for some other churches (especially some Protestant ones), and applying it to a religious tradition which generally doesn't use it, and I don't think that makes a lot of sense. @Vicedomino: you raised this issue in 2020 but nobody responded. SomethingForDeletion (talk) 07:27, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

I agree with all the criticisms expressed by SomethingForDeletion. Catholic statistics, as found in Annuario Pontificio are often estimates, and (as in the case of Italy, where estimates run 90-99%, where the actual figure is admitted to be below 40%). They are said to represent "baptized Catholics" in a diocese, but, in addition to all the considerations expressed above, people move from place to place, making baptismal statistics a poor guide to who is actually there. "Including non-members" has to be dropped. Vicedomino (talk) 08:07, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply. I added an edit request below to remove this phrase. SomethingForDeletion (talk) 08:38, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

Template-protected edit request on 12 March 2023

Change "Catholics (including non-members)" to just say "Catholics" per above discussion SomethingForDeletion (talk) 08:27, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

 Completed. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. ^{put'er there} 13:13, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

Thank you. SomethingForDeletion (talk) 22:11, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

my pleasure! Paine  22:25, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

Deacons

It was previously proposed to add |deacons= as a parameter to capture a count of the number of deacons (permanent) in the diocese, but there was no follow-up discussion or action taken to implement this. At least for Catholic dioceses, this information could be sourced from the dioceses themselves or from the Annuario Pontificio.

Are folks open to adding this parameter to be placed immediately below the |priests= parameter?  — Archer1234 (t·c) 00:23, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

I support your proposal. I think you can go ahead and create a "Template-protected edit request" to officially request adding it. Nobody has spoken against it, and I'd be surprised if anyone is going to. Especially since it is an optional parameter, which means that if there is any diocese (especially non-Catholic ones) for which the information might not be available/relevant, we can just ignore it for them.

One comment though – I'm worried people will be confused about the distinction between permanent deacons, transitional deacons, or counting both. It might be better to have "permanent_deacons" as a parameter–I'm assuming any available statistics re either only going to count permanent deacons, or separately count the permanent and transitional ones. Another concern I have is around deaconesses, which while they don't (currently) exist in Catholicism, are found in some Anglican and Orthodox dioceses. Orthodox understand deaconesses as a separate order from the male-order only of deacons, so they'd never include deaconesses in statistics on deacons; but the majority (but not all) of Anglicans do view deaconesses as female deacons, and so would include that in a count of deacons. I'm not sure how best to address those differences, but I don't see those concerns as blocking your proposal, I'm just raising them for your awareness as potential gotchas worth thinking about. SomethingForDeletion (talk) 01:40, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

I know I'm a bit late here, but would we want to draw a distinction between permanent and transitional deacons? Does the AP differentiate the data in such a manner? Maximilian775 (talk) 19:48, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

That's a good question. How does the AP count deacons? Ergo Sum 21:11, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

Leadership

The current leadership of the Diocese of Sodor and Man is Mark Davies, bishop of Middleton, after the retirement of Peter Eagles in October 2023. 147.161.145.93 (talk) 09:07, 26 March 2024 (UTC)