Template:Did you know nominations/Was mein Gott will, das g'scheh allzeit

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Yoninah (talk) 17:39, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

Was mein Gott will, das g'scheh allzeit

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Portrait of Albert by Lucas Cranach

~~... that the tune for the hymn "Was mein Gott will, das g'scheh allzeit" by Albert, Duke of Prussia, (pictured), which Bach set to music often, appeared first with a French secular song?~~ Source: several

Reviewed: ~~to come~~
Comment: The often stands for a chorale cantata, the St Matthew Passion, and other cantatas ...

Converted from a redirect by Gerda Arendt (talk). Self-nominated at 11:16, 9 April 2020 (UTC).

ALT1: ~~... that the hymn tune for "Was mein Gott will, das g'scheh allzeit" by Albert, Duke of Prussia, (pictured) was often used by Bach and first appeared in a secular French song?~~ Source: several
Reworded the hook. Hope you are okay with it.--Epiphyllumlover (talk) 02:08, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for the offer, but next time, please don't "reword", but word an ALT, as I have now done. We'll see what reviewers say. I'd expect a chronological sequence when two things are combined by "and", and this is opposite, the tune from the 16th centura, the use in cantatas in the 18th. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:17, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

I reviewed now Template:Did you know nominations/Madagascan hoopoe. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:09, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

ALT2: ... that the tune for the hymn "Was mein Gott will, das g'scheh allzeit" by Albert, Duke of Prussia, (pictured), originated from a secular French song, and has been used by numerous composers including Bach? Source: several

I found both A0 and A1 confusing. I believe your hook appears to be attempting to emphasize the reuse of this tune not only by Albert, but also by Bach. This appears to be a truly fascinating example of how artists borrow from one another. However, the belabored writing of A0 and A1 makes this fascination difficult to grasp. The article and image certainly pass requirements, and once a hook is settled on, this should be good to go. Cawhee^Talk 18:31, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

I am sorry that it is confusing. Albert created the text, so why "reuse". The sort of quirky thing is that the melody for a Christian hymn by Albert comes from a secular song, and that then Bach liked it enough to set it several times. I feel like explaining a joke ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:11, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

Sorry, striking ALT2. The others may be confusing, but this is misleading. It reads as if Bach and "numerous composers" (as if anybody cared about those) used the tune (only) while it's the text by Albert that they used, with the tune. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:18, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

Full review needed—there are no specifics in earlier comments—including the hooks. Thanks. BlueMoonset (talk) 01:31, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

I feel like the hooks are all too much of a mouthful - trying to cram too many disparate facts into one sentance - and suffering for it. How about:

ALT2: ~~... that the tune for the German religious hymn "Was mein Gott will, das g'scheh allzeit" by Albert, Duke of Prussia (pictured) first appeared in a French secular song?~~

ALT2a: ~~... that the tune for the German religious hymn "Was mein Gott will, das g'scheh allzeit" first appeared in a French secular song?~~

The Squirrel Conspiracy (talk) 04:23, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for the offers, but sorry, I feel that's too little. (We don't need" religious", it seems to be the first meaning of hymn, and has been used on DYK often.) If only one fact, then that is attributed to a politician, and used by Bach, - why the English Wikipedia may care about this German hymn. A melody based on something secular is rather common for hymns (O Haupt voll Blut und Wunden), - not specific to this one. It's added to make the main fact a bit quirky ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:41, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Alright, then let's try to tweak Alt1 to flow a bit better:

ALT1a: ... that the tune for the hymn "Was mein Gott will, das g'scheh allzeit", by Albert, Duke of Prussia, (pictured) was often used by Bach and first appeared in a secular French song?

Does that work Gerda Arendt? The Squirrel Conspiracy (talk) 08:32, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Not quite, because first came the tune, then Bach. I think I give up Bach this time, how is that?

ALT3: ... that the text of the hymn "Was mein Gott will, das g'scheh allzeit" was written by Albert, Duke of Prussia, (pictured), and the tune first appeared in a secular French song? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:48, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

That one doesn't trip me up when I read it in my head, so I think it's good. While losing Bach is unfortunate, any hook that runs with that fabulous hat next to it is going to get plenty of attention.

I will review this tomorrow or Saturday, but it's way too late at night and I should have signed off hours ago. The Squirrel Conspiracy (talk) 08:56, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Adequate sourcing: Neutral: Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:

Hook eligibility:

Cited: - The hymnary.org source lists "Author: Margrave Albrecht Alcibiades", which if you click, leads to Albert Alcibiades, Margrave of Brandenburg-Kulmbach, not to Albert, Duke of Prussia.
Interesting:

Image eligibility:

Freely licensed: - Holding off on this piece per the above. If it's the wrong person, the picture will be changed/removed.
Used in article:
Clear at 100px:

QPQ: Done.

Overall: There were several hits on Earwig, but they were all the stanzas of the hymn, which isn't an issue (among other reasons, because it is in the public domain).
We need to resolve the question of the author before the review can be completed. The Squirrel Conspiracy (talk) 20:00, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Well, I trust Bach Digital more than hymnary.org, confessing that German nobility is too confusing for me to fully understand, and more so when translated. The person called Albert, Duke of Prussia in English is de:Albrecht (Preußen) in German, from the Brandenburg-Ansbach family (see also [1], [2], [3], [4]). --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:37, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Can you swap the source for "The text is attributed to Albert, Duke of Prussia," to the Royal Academy, since that one seems to support the hook unambiguously? The Squirrel Conspiracy (talk) 21:29, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Rather to Dürr/Jones, and tomorrow. (The program notes may come from anywhere, including Wikipedia ;) ) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:31, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Instead, I added a 2004 ref, and made a note about the confusion. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:54, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

That solution is better than anything I could come up with, and resolves the issue. The image is used in the article, shows up well, and is very obviously public domain. Adding in the remainder of my review above, and this is good to go. AGF tick because some of the sources are in German. The Squirrel Conspiracy (talk) 05:14, 7 June 2020 (UTC)