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The following discussion is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by  — Crisco 1492 (talk) 00:09, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

Toti Soler

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  • ... that Catalan guitarist Toti Soler's music has been described as "poignant and melancholy and captures beautifully the enigmatic mood of on and off stage traumas and passions"?

Created/expanded by Dr. Blofeld (talk). Self nom at 15:25, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

  • Am currently reviewing this. Carcharoth (talk) 07:36, 19 April 2012 (UTC) Need to check some sources - will finish review later today on Friday Saturday.
  • Apologies for the delay. Here are the notes I have so far:
    • (1) Written and nominated same day (28 March 2012). The article is just long enough (over 1500 characters) to qualify for DYK because the lead counts. The prose content of the main body of the article (excluding the quote) is 1494 (though technically only 'blockquotes' are excluded, I tend to not include quotes anyway). Including the lead section (as is normally done) pushed this up by 389 characters to 1883 characters. So it meets the DYK criteria for being a new article, for length, and for being nominated within 5 days.
    • (2) The article is sourced to reliable sources, though this does include a primary source from the subject's own website (i.e. an autobiographical source). I'm satisfied that the article gives due weight to different aspects of the topic, but some of the sourcing isn't great. There are three uses of sources linked to Google Books. Do you have full access to those sources, or are you using Google Book's snippet and/or preview views?
      I'm using snippets. Unfortunately none of is can access them fully but we are permitted to view the snippets which is OK for this.♦ Dr. Blofeld 13:01, 21 April 2012 (UTC)
    • (3) Link should be to: Taj Mahal (musician) (I'll correct this). As this is a BLP, my view is that everything should be sourced before it is passed for DYK. Citation needed for '1958' in the infobox. Citation needed for the "He has worked with [...] amongst others" sentence.
      Added sources.♦ Dr. Blofeld 13:01, 21 April 2012 (UTC)
      I was hoping for more than scattered snippets. A lot of them are Spanish-language sources as well, so I may need to post to WT:DYK and ask for help with that. I'm more concerned about balance now, though, as I've read the 2-page biography pdf from his website (the English version) and that doesn't mention many of these other artistes. The only people I see mentioned by name are: Taj Mahal, Diego del Gastor, Ugo Tognazzi (you've mentioned all three) and Léo Ferré and José Manuel Roldan (both of whom you fail to mention). I know DYKs don't have to meet a very high standard, but I'm surprised Ferré was missed out. Carcharoth (talk) 07:13, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
    • (4) Was unable to verify anything from the first source you cite (Nazario (2004). Los años 70 vistos por Nazario y sus amigos). Would be better to use a source like this: Guía del flamenco (Luis López Ruiz, Ediciones AKAL, 2007).
      Replaced.♦ Dr. Blofeld 13:03, 21 April 2012 (UTC)
    • (5) The 'Plays International' quote appears not to be copied verbatim, but appears to have been altered slightly while still being left in quote marks. This shouldn't be done. Also, "once said" is not precise enough. If you don't know when it was said, you don't know enough to be quoting it with confidence. Also, you should say which play is being referred to here.
      Did you check the snippet in google books? I think its quoted but only select text. I've nodded towards then with several full stops.♦ Dr. Blofeld 12:49, 21 April 2012 (UTC)
      Yes, the Google Books snippet I saw said this:

      "Toti Soler's guitarist, providing a lyrical underscoring to the onstage action, functions both as an observer and commentator. His stark music is poignant and melancholy, and captures beautifully the enigmatic mood of on- and off-stage traumas and passions."

      If you are going to quote that, you need to use ellipses or square brackets to show where you've changed or omitted wording (you also dropped the 'on- and off-stage' hyphens). I'm still concerned that this appears to be a quote about a guitarist role or accompaniment to a play, rather than a general comment about his musical style. Carcharoth (talk) 07:13, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
    • (6) This sentence is imprecise: "The album received an award from the Sociedad General de Autores y Editores (SGAE) the following year." The source cited says "En 1996, recibe el Premio al Mejor Disco Catalán del Año por su disco Lydda." But the sentence in the Wikipedia article appears to be referring to the preceding sentence on the 'Vita Nuova' album, with the 'Lydda' album a further sentence back.
      No it doesn't, it says he won it in 2003 "y recibe el Premio Nuevas Músicas 2003 de la Sociedad General de Autores y Editores (S.G.A.E.)" and in the previous sentence I was talking about his 2002 album so it's correct.♦ Dr. Blofeld 12:49, 21 April 2012 (UTC)
      You are right, though my point was that the 'Vita Nuova' doesn't seem to be mentioned by name in the source you are citing (it is named in the pdf from his website). It is unclear whether you are citing that he received the award (fine) or whether you are citing what album he received the award for (you'd need an additional citation for that). It would be better to use a source that named the album. Carcharoth (talk) 07:13, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
    • (7) The hook is fine in terms of length and interest. Not sure, though, that you should really be using a quote from what appears to be a review of a play, to describe his music in a DYK hook. Better would be to quote someone giving an overall assessment of his music, rather than from a single review. QPQ requirement has been met.
    For now, marking this as {{DYK?}} and notifying the nominator to see if the above can be addressed. Carcharoth (talk) 05:59, 21 April 2012 (UTC)
    If the Spanish language sources pass muster, this may be ready to go soon, but I do have an additional question about the history of this article versus the Spanish-language article and the Calatan-language article. Was some of the wording taken from those articles? And do you have a reliable source for his birth date? Carcharoth (talk) 07:13, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
    Apparently the Spanish-language sources are OK (see here), but further concerns have been raised here). I will ask Sandy to comment further here, but will mark this needing additional review, while adding below some notes I made while checking a few things related to this article. Also, it has been pointed out that the pdf from the subject's website shouldn't be used to cite awards he has won. Independent sources are needed for those. So, in its current state . Carcharoth (talk) 06:05, 24 April 2012 (UTC)
  • Some additional notes: the quote from Plays International appears to be referring to a production of Uncle Vanya at the Teatre Lliure. Some quotes: "The newest Chekhov, a production of Uncle Vanya directed by Joan Olle, occupies the Fabia Puigserver auditoria of the new Lluire and reconfigures it in ways that poignantly recall the company's old Gracia home." (source: Western European Stages, Volume 17 [Center for Advanced Study in Theatre Arts, CASTA, 2005]) and "A scene from Joan Olle's production of Chekhov's Uncle Vanya at Barcelona's Teatre Lliure with Xieu Maso in the title ... Maso's Vania holds the delicate threads of Olle's production together. Toti Soler's musical accompaniment enacts ..." (source: Plays International, Volume 20 [Chancery Publications Ltd, 2004]). There is also a production called "Coral Romput" (broken coral). Uncle Vanya and Teatre Lliure are mentioned in the Catalan-language article ca:Toti_Soler and Coral Romput is mentioned in the Spanish-language article es:Toti Soler. It may be difficult to find sources, but at the moment the Catalan- and Spanish-language articles contain more information (and likely a more balanced presentation due to not omitting stuff). The English-language article contains sources, but doesn't appear complete enough to give a balanced overview of Soler's career, which is arguably another reason for rejecting it for DYK. Carcharoth (talk) 06:05, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

I think your reviewing is far too thorough for DYK. Anybody would think this was about to be FA nominated. The article does not need to be comprehensive for DYK and Spanish languages sources are most certainly not a problem.♦ Dr. Blofeld 12:23, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

I'm sorry you feel that way. Feel free to ask at WT:DYK for a second opinion. I do have some more notes, but I will put those on the article talk page (along with a summary of what I posted here), and will edit the article accordingly if no-one else does, both to be done when I have more time (probably during the week). My view (for anyone reading this if you seek a second opinion) is that the sourcing here is not adequate for a BLP. There are unsourced bits that need sourcing (as stated above) and sourced bits that need better (independent) sources. I agree that Spanish-language sources are not a problem (you've misunderstood me there). It is assessing the reliability of Spanish-language sources that I was uncertain about (and the reliability is important because this is a BLP). I will likely raise the issue of stubs/short articles and BLP DYKs at WT:DYK at some point soon, as this is something that needs wider consideration. Carcharoth (talk) 06:37, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
  • I have to agree with Dr B. here. Crisco 1492 (talk) 12:48, 3 May 2012 (UTC)
    Apologies for not returning to this sooner. I had hoped to address this soon after I found time to edit Wikipedia again (was too busy to edit for a few days). Someone else is perfectly entitled to pass this for DYK, but I can't in good conscience do so, for the following reasons (more explanation follows after the list):
    Points not addressed:
    • 1) Mention of Léo Ferré and José Manuel Roldan
    • 2) Correct quoting of 'Toti Soler's guitarist' quote
    • 3) Insufficient citing for the 2003 'Vita Nuova' award
    • 4) Additional material not incorporated from other-language Wikipedia articles
    • 5) Paraphrasing needs to move away from the source language
    • 6) Citation needed for birth date and birth name (I give one below)
      Història de la música catalana, valenciana i balear: Cronologia universal (Xosé Aviñoa, Edicions 62, 2004): page 221: "birth of Jordi Soler i Galí (Toti Soler) on 6 June 1949."
    • 7) Independent sources needed for awards received
    • 8) Additional notes appended to DYK nomination could be raised on article talk page
    Of these, not all need to be addressed for DYK. Points 1, 4 and 8 can wait until later on in the process of article development. In my view, points 2, 3, 5, 6, and 7 should be addressed before the article is cleared to appear on the main page. Mainly because this is a BLP and BLPs should be held to higher standards. Others may disagree. Carcharoth (talk) 00:10, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

Responding to two further points:

  • i) The article does not need to be comprehensive for DYK - Agreed. But I'm not arguing that it has to be comprehensive, but that it has to present a balanced overview of Soler's career. How can it do that if no such single overview exists outside of Wikipedia? The only way the Wikipedia article can be balanced (see WP:NPOV) is by being comprehensive. Omitting an important aspect of someone's life and career can unbalance an article as much as including too much on a minor aspect of someone's life. For those who are not living, this doesn't matter too much, but for BLPs, it is important that every effort is made to maintain high standards, especially if proposing it for the main page.
  • ii) Spanish languages sources are most certainly not a problem - Agreed. Use of such sources is not a problem. But I don't think AGF should apply to BLP articles. These should be held to a higher standard if they are to be passed for the main page. The main reason my review has been so thorough is because this is a BLP. Otherwise, my review would have been less thorough. Hence each source should be evaluated for reliability and whether it verifies what is being cited.

I had hoped to post the above (written offline) at the article talk page, but am posting it here instead. If this portion of the discussion should move elsewhere, by all means move the above two points to the new location, leaving a link from here for continuity. Carcharoth (talk) 00:10, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

  • Update - returned to this after an absence of a few days to a week. Nothing had been done, so I went in and edited the article, making these changes. Not all are needed for DYK, but as I said above, I felt some of those changes were needed. I'm now going to post at WT:DYK and try and find someone to close this nomination either way (the hook is likely not suitable, though). Carcharoth (talk) 01:12, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
I trust (not reading Spanish) that after these thoughts and improvements the article is in a state to be shown on the Main page. I confess not to like the hook because of broken grammar. Suggest
ALT1: ... that the Catalan guitar music of Toti Soler has been described as capturing "beautifully the enigmatic mood of ... traumas and passions"?
I can also imagine a hook on the lead facts (influence, poetry), but they would have to e referenced in the article. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:39, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Yes that's fine, thanks.♦ Dr. Blofeld 13:45, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

  • I have problems with the new ALT1 hook. "Catalan guitar music" implies that Soler was playing music from Catalonia, whereas he is a Catalan who was, in the quote, playing music of a source we don't know in a production of Uncle Vanya, a Russian play, in Barcelona. Assuming you want to retain as much as possible from the ALT, I think this ALT2 better reflects the facts; I'm debating whether "music" (as written) might be better as "playing":
  • ALT2: ... that the music of Catalan guitarist Toti Soler has been described as beautifully capturing the "enigmatic mood" of "traumas and passions"? —BlueMoonset (talk) 15:50, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
  • Sounds good to me, thank you, could go, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:35, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
  • Not up to me; I just suggested the wording. I certainly can't approve my own hook; if Dr. Blofeld thinks it works, though, you could. :-) BlueMoonset (talk) 03:25, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
Naturally, naturally... Gracias.♦ Dr. Blofeld 10:50, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
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