Template:Did you know nominations/Old City of Gaza

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: rejected by reviewer, closed by AirshipJungleman29 talk 15:13, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

Old City of Gaza, Old City of Nablus

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Church of Saint Porphyrius and the Katib al-Wilaya Mosque

... that both the Old City of Gaza (pictured) and the Old City of Nablus have been repeatedly damaged by Israeli invasion and bombardment?

Source: Awad, Jihad (2017-01-15). "Conserving the Palestinian Architectural Heritage". International Journal of Heritage Architecture: Studies, Repairs and Maintenance. 1 (3): 454. doi:10.2495/ha-v1-n3-451-460. ISSN 2058-833X. The old city of Nablus has suffered, probably more than any other Palestinian city, from the massive invasion by Israeli forces during the second uprising which started in 2000. Many restoration projects were previously completed by the municipality but unfortunately destroyed by the Israeli bombing of the old city. Many buildings were heavily damaged by Israeli rockets during April 2002. A project was carried out by UNDP and funded by the Japanese government to rebuild the houses. Then in December of 2003, many houses were again damaged during Israeli military activity. This kept recurring: buildings were repaired and then damaged.
Mraffko, Clothilde; Forey, Samuel (2024-02-14). "Israeli bombs are wiping out Gaza's heritage and history". Le Monde.fr. Retrieved 2024-09-29. Whether the Israelis act intentionally or not, "the result is effectively the erasure of a heritage and a history. Symbolically, this is important because this is one of the ways in which people are attached to their territory," warned Benoît Tadié, former cultural adviser to the French consulate general in Jerusalem between 2009 and 2013. He takes as an example the Old City of Gaza, which, like much of the north of the enclave, is now a vast field of ruins. "It wasn't just a site, it was also the heart of today's city. The hammam and the Pacha's Palace were extremely popular places. The museum also served as a place of education for schoolchildren," explained Tadié.

Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Abdul Ahad Azad and Template:Did you know nominations/Sun Jianai

Created by Onceinawhile (talk). Number of QPQs required: 2. Nominator has 80 past nominations.

Onceinawhile (talk) 09:57, 29 September 2024 (UTC).

@Onceinawhile: Not a review, but there are massive amounts of unsourced content in both articles and "International Journal of Heritage Architecture: Studies, Repairs and Maintence" is coming up as deprecated/predatory on WP:UPSD. What makes it reliable?--Laun chba ller 22:24, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

Thanks Launchballer. All the sources are in the bibliography - let me add in-line citations throughout where they have been missed. I will confirm when done.

On the Jihad Awad source, I am confident that it is reliable - Professor Awad is full professor of architecture, currently head of architecture department at Ajman University, and this paper (a conference submission) is cited in his official University biography page. He subsequently published an article covering a similar topic here. The statement is not difficult to source elsewhere if needed. Onceinawhile (talk) 20:05, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Fine by me. Full review needed.--Laun chba ller 03:19, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

WIT Press conferences are scams. That source must absolutely be replaced. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 00:34, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

@Onceinawhile: Please address the above.--Laun chba ller 00:18, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Launchballer thank you for bringing this to my attention. I have removed the source referred to above and replaced it with this: Abujidi, Nurhan; Verschure, Han (2006-07-01). "Military Occupation as Urbicide by Construction and Destruction: The Case of Nablus, Palestine". The Arab World Geographer. 9 (2). Allen Press: 206. ISSN 1480-6800. Given the large number of frequent Israeli army invasions of the Old Town, the so called Operation Defensive Shield in April 2002 is considered the heaviest single operation. It caused damage to 47.5% of the housing blocks that structure the Old Town's urban fabric… During other invasions, a shift in the mechanism and location of destruction is evident. Highly focused, limited-scale demolitions targeting specific sections of the city were identified. The size and scale of destruction are not always determined by the type of invasion. For example, the scale of destruction resulting from the overnight incursion of January 2005 was larger than that of the short-term invasion of January 2004, which lasted 10 days. Moreover, a repeated rhythm in invading and destroying the same buildings during the several invasions was registered over the past four years, with each invasion accompanied by destruction, looting, and vandalism.

Onceinawhile (talk) 23:02, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

That's fine. I still see unsourced content in both the articles though.--Laun chba ller 11:53, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks @Launchballer: I added the remaining sources. Both articles are ready for a full review.Onceinawhile (talk) 14:27, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

You're just in time, I was about to mark this for closure! I will review this within the next 24 hours.--Laun chba ller 14:28, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

Long enough, new enough. I don't see any reason why this might deserve a maintenance template, and the hook checks out and the QPQ is done. This is fine, although I would invite promoters to read Wikipedia talk:Did you know/Archive 203#Negative Israel hooks.--Laun chba ller 11:30, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

@Onceinawhile, Launchballer, AirshipJungleman29, Gatoclass, and Chipmunkdavis: I've reopened this following discussion at [1] there was a bit of disagreement, but IMHO the article does not satisfy WP:DYKCOMPLETE, and CMD notes that the hook fact is not directly mentioned either. — Amakuru (talk) 21:11, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

Hi @Amakuru: understood and thanks for this. I agree with you, and was thinking about this history section when drafting and reviewing. From memory, the chosen areas of history followed the Arabic article versions. It's a difficult balance, faced by all our Old City and Historic district articles, as we don't want to duplicate the entire pre-modern history section of the much more fulsome main articles. Most such articles provide a light overview of the history, and instead focus on the cultural and architectural legacy.

I will have a go at building out - grateful for your comments. Onceinawhile (talk) 07:52, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

@Onceinawhile: thanks. I do know what you mean... It's tricky to know how to balance content across intertwined topics. In theory each article is standalone, but we don't want redundancy all the same. A broad-bush overview of the major points across the centuries would be sufficient here anyway. Cheers — Amakuru (talk) 08:08, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

@Onceinawhile: The nomination has already timed out as of today, so if the issues can't be addressed promptly then unfortunately the nomination will be closed as unsuccessful. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 01:02, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

Hi thanks for the ping. I finished Amakuru’s suggested improvements at Old City of Gaza two days ago, and have just finished at Old City of Nablus. Perhaps Amakuru could take a quick look and confirm if any further comments or changes are needed? Onceinawhile (talk) 09:00, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

Hi @Narutolovehinata5: Amakuru’s request to build out the history sections were completed within 2.5 days, and that was a week ago. Despite a ping here, and two messages on their talk page, I have yet to hear back from Amakuru. I assume they are busy with other things. Could we now re-promote the nomination? Onceinawhile (talk) 23:24, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

As a general rule, I don't like working with anything IP-related owing to being uncomfortable with articles that involve contentious topics, but you can ask an expert on the topic like Buidhe if issues have been properly addressed. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 23:28, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

Thank you. @Buidhe: if you have time, would you mind reviewing the above and letting us know if you think the issues have been addressed? Onceinawhile (talk) 07:12, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Comment: Onceinawhile, Narutolovehinata5, Amakuru is this rejected or promoted? I'm cleaning the backlogs of DYK. Needed a answer as soon as possible, Thanks! Royiswariii Talk! 09:46, 8 December 2024 (UTC)
@Royiswariii: apologies, Onceinawhile has been asking me to look at this for weeks and I've not managed to get around to it. So it's not their fault that this has timed out. Looking now, my opinion is that it's certainly better now, with more history added, but it still seems like there surely must be something to be said about the postwar and post-1967 history, when this area has been variously occupied by Israel etc. Did none of that affect the Old City of Gaza or Nablus at all? I'd like there to be a few more days allowed for that period to be fleshed out a little (even if it's just to say nothing happened at all and the Old City was unchanged during that period) before making a final determination on this. Cheers — Amakuru (talk) 10:07, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

@Amakuru: The nomination has been open since late September and has already been given plenty of time to be brought up to snuff. The time out has already passed, the nomination has probably already been given enough chances. If this still requires several more days to be brought to DYK standard then that's already too much time given. Enough time has been given and it's probably time for this to be closed. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 13:24, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

@Narutolovehinata5: thanks for your comment and also Amakuru for theirs. The further history points are useful, and I am sure that more points on modern history can be added over time.

I also think that WP:DYKCOMPLETE requirement for DYK articles to be "reasonably" complete is being unreasonably applied. Both articles are well written and interesting summaries; no reader will be surprised that an Old City article doesn’t have a lot of detail on modern history. Also WP:DYKTIMEOUT refers to unpromoted hooks – this is an already promoted hook.

I feel it would be very unfair treatment to dump these articles after all the hard work that went into them, when they have already been judged good enough for promotion and have been improved further since then.

Onceinawhile (talk) 07:33, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

Well for what it's worth, while it did get promoted, it was also pulled and hasn't been re-promoted since. I know it may seem unfair considering all the effort made into the article, but not all articles are good fits for DYK, and not being featured on DYK does not discount editors' hard work and effort towards making a better article. It's just that the article had already been given plenty of times and chances to meet the requirements, and the time has come when enough is enough. It may be discouraging, but be assured that this is not intended to discount your editors or hard work, it's just that not everything works out, and that's okay. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 08:12, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

In addition, one of the main reasons we have DYK timeout now is because it's really suboptimal for nominations to linger around indefinitely. The nomination has been open since September 29, making it the oldest nomination (approved or unapproved) on DYK. As mentioned earlier, it was already given over two months to have issues addressed. While some of the delay was due to circumstances beyond anyone's control (given it's a contentious topic, I can't blame people for being reluctant to touch it), the fact is there's a soft deadline and having nominations stick around just diverts reviewer time and effort from more urgent or pressing matters. We have a limited number of regulars and there's only so much we can do with a project that's regularly backlogged. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 08:21, 9 December 2024 (UTC)