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Template:Did you know nominations/Murder of Elsie Lie

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The following discussion is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: rejected by Allen3 talk 16:04, 15 October 2013 (UTC)
Insufficient progress toward resolving outstanding issues

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Murder of Elsie Lie

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  • ... that Singaporean woman Elsie Lie had her eyeballs dug out by her boyfriend?

Created by Bonkers The Clown (talk). Self nominated at 10:00, 15 July 2013 (UTC).

  • Article is new enough and long enough. There is adequate referencing. I found no copyvios. However, the sources in the article only say the boyfriend was charged with murder, not convicted. And my own web search did not uncover any stories confirming that the boyfriend had been convicted. Unless there is a reliable source for a conviction, a statement that the the boyfriend did it would not be appropriate. Rlendog (talk) 01:31, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
  • I suppose that a hook that the boyfriend was charged of doing this would be supportable, although I would not be comfortable with that as a hook from a BLP perspective (assuming he had not been convicted and executed. But a hook about this being cited as one of Singapore's most gruesome murders may be ok. Rlendog (talk) 01:33, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
  • I note that you have helped make those changes. Thank you. Hm that's true I often fail to realise the distinction between "charge" and "conviction". Last time I read, the suspect went for some check-up to see if he was nuts. Perhaps the trial is not ready to end yet. I'm alright with ALT1: ... that the murder of Elsie Lie has been described as one of "Singapore's most gruesome murders"? ☯ Bonkers The Clown \(^_^)/ Nonsensical Babble ☯ 11:16, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
  • That should work. I will just note that I reviewed a similar nom Template:Did you know nominations/Murder of Darren Ng after this that used this hook, so it might be best to combine these into a double nom, although I see that one has already been promoted. If it is two late to bring that one down and combine with this one, at least this one should probably wait a few days. Maybe it could even be expanded to ALT2: Rlendog (talk) 19:35, 16 July 2013 (UTC)... that the murder of Elsie Lie, in which the victims eyes were gouged out, has been described as one of "Singapore's most gruesome murders"? Rlendog (talk) 19:35, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
  • Under the circumstances of the virtually identical hook, I think the phrase "Singapore's most gruesome murders" should not be reused. It's the sort of thing that stands out: a couple of weeks might not be long enough. Can we please have a new hook? Thanks. BlueMoonset (talk) 02:46, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
  • I have a reservation about the image of the victim used in the article. Whilst I would accept the use of the person's portrait under Fair Use provisions because it's of interest how a notable person looks/looked like in real life, we are dealing with an incident, where it really doesn't matter what the victim looks like. I could imagine using a photograph of the murder scene or somesuch, if there was one available. -- Ohc ¡digame!¿que pasa? 16:50, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
  • The photo has been removed. I may be too close to this article to review it again at this point, but ALT3 seems to be supported and within the guidelines (if gory), and doesn't replicate the hook from the murder of Darren Ng (and a few weeks have elapsed since that DYK ran anyway). Rlendog (talk) 20:31, 19 August 2013 (UTC)
  • Needs a new reviewer, both of the article and of ALT3. BlueMoonset (talk) 03:40, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
  • No problems with the article, but the hook (ALT3) needs revising. Firstly, she was killed in an apartment, not a house. Secondly, I find the phrasing a bit awkward ("thrown out of the house she was killed in"); I think it could be simplified. DoctorKubla (talk) 15:41, 28 September 2013 (UTC)
  • ALT4 ... that after being murdered, Elsie Lie's eyeballs were thrown out of her apartment? ☯ Bonkers The Clown \(^_^)/ Nonsensical Babble ☯ 06:26, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
Can't quite put my finger on why I don't like that one (sorry I'm being so nitpicky). I didn't want to suggest an alt hook myself, because it means now we'll need another reviewer, but how about:
  • ALT5: ... that in the murder of Elsie Lie, the victim's eyes were dug out and thrown out of a window?
If someone can approve one of these hooks, we're good to go. DoctorKubla (talk) 09:41, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

for ALT5 - I'm accepting DoctorKubla's checking of the article, QPQ etc; I have read through the article and ALT5 hook is supported by ref #1 in the 'Murder' section. SagaciousPhil - Chat 09:59, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

  • Note: struck ALT4, since it was not approved by a reviewer. BlueMoonset (talk) 13:14, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
  • I dislike ALT5 - I think it both too graphic and too sensationalist - this is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid newspaper. Surely a more appropriate hook can be found? Gatoclass (talk) 15:10, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
Well, I can't think of anything. This seems like a pretty standard murder; the eyeball defenestration is the only interesting thing about it. I'll notify Bonkers again, perhaps he can come up with something. DoctorKubla (talk) 07:54, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
Quite frankly, after taking a closer look at the article, I am asking myself whether this crime would pass GNG anyway. Gatoclass (talk) 10:17, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
Is there a rule preventing us from running hooks on eyeballs being flung out of the window? ☯ Bonkers The Clown \(^_^)/ Nonsensical Babble ☯ 10:53, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
  • Outstanding issues not addressed. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 05:29, 15 October 2013 (UTC)
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