Template:Did you know nominations/Moses Bensinger

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Yoninah (talk) 21:27, 13 November 2016 (UTC)

Moses Bensinger

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Moses Bensinger 1896

• ... that Moses Bensinger (pictured) was the instigator of the rules and regulations used in modern bowling?

• Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Peters's squirrel (#6 of 7 total = 1 remaining)

Created by Doug Coldwell (talk) and 7&6=thirteen (talk). Nominated by Doug Coldwell (talk) at 21:38, 17 August 2016 (UTC).

• The only problem I see is the copyright status of the image. Just because it has probably been 70 years since the author of the image died doesn't necessarily mean that the image is in the public domain in the U.S. So you'll need to show evidence that the image meets one of these requirements. I will be nice and try to help find some of that evidence. Everything else is good to go. Jsayre64 (talk) 04:22, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

@Jsayre64: I have no way of knowing if it has been 70 years since the author of the image died. The image was uploaded by another editor back in 2015 and it is being used in the German Wikipedia here. If that's all that is stopping the nomination, I can just remove his picture from the article and hook. You tell me what it will take to get the nomination through.--Doug Coldwell (talk) 10:47, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

• Comment Picture of Moses Bensinger published 1904. This would solve the DYK problem if were uploaded to Commons and added to the article. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 15:07, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

• The nomination is good to go. I found the image online in context here, as opposed to just this, and the website confirms it was published in Chicago in 1896. (I saw that there's at least one more public domain image of Moses Bensinger at that site, by the way.) I realize neither of you first uploaded that image, but you see why it's important to link to an actual webpage or book, not just to the image alone. And @7&6=thirteen: that looks great and would make enough for a Commons category. Jsayre64 (talk) 15:43, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

• Instigator is a somewhat odd choice of words unless, like most normal people, you think bowling is the most boring game in the world (other than golf, of course). EEng 00:08, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

• I have pulled this from prep 6 per this discussion at WT:DYK. Gatoclass (talk) 14:19, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

I propose:

• ALT1 ... that Moses Bensinger (pictured) was one of the instigators of the rules and regulations used in ten-pin bowling?
• ALT2 ... that Moses Bensinger (pictured) helped popularize modern bowling and billiards?

7&6=thirteen (☎) 15:35, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

@Gatoclass: Would one of these ALTs work that 7&6=thirteen proposes?--Doug Coldwell (talk) 16:15, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

ALT2 looks viable, but I'm afraid I haven't the time or energy to look any closer at this nomination today. Gatoclass (talk) 16:40, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

BTW, I think "ten-pin bowling" would be more appropriate than "modern bowling", as there are different kinds of bowling games. Gatoclass (talk) 16:42, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

• ALT3 ... that Moses Bensinger (pictured) helped popularize ten-pin bowling and billiards?
• ALT4 ... that Moses Bensinger (pictured) was the initiator of the rules and regulations used in modern ten-pen bowling?

Reference in article is "Brunswick" by Rick Kogan (page 25) "It took Bensinger five years to gather a group of bowlers and proprietors in New York City's Beethoven Hall. It was to be an informal get-together to discuss bowling rules and regulations. But by midnight of September 9, 1895, after hours of debate and eloquent speeches by Bensinger, the group had organized the American Bowling Congress." Here is that part of the book. --Doug Coldwell (talk) 21:31, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

Dictionary.com gives as a definition of a "congress" as a formal meeting or assembly of representatives for the discussion, arrangement, or promotion of some matter of common interest. In this case the common interest to arrange and promote was a set of bowling rules and regulations. Bensinger worked to get bowlers and proprietors together on this for the first five years in the 1890s = initiator! Initiate = to begin, set going, or originate: to initiate major social reforms.--Doug Coldwell (talk) 21:44, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

Keep in mind here that Bensinger had the idea FIRST of discussing organizing bowling rules and regulations when he took over the Brunswick company in 1890. THEN a "congress" was formed to formalize this to be able enforce these rules. The American Bowling Congress was formalized AFTER a set of rules and regulations were agreed upon and there was then a need for an enforcer. Bensinger had been working on this idea of formal bowling rules and regulations for five years, NOT working on the idea of making the American Bowling Congress. That just became the enforcer of the bowling rules and regulations Bensinger had already been working on for some 5 years prior. That would make Bensinger then the initiator of the rules and regulations used in modern ten-pen bowling. Per article American Bowling Congress was the original codifier of all tenpin bowling standards, rules and regulations from 1895 onward. --Doug Coldwell (talk) 22:15, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

In light of ALT3, I struck ALT2. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 23:54, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

Comment: just providing a link to the latest at this relevant discussion. Jsayre64 (talk) 21:36, 31 August 2016 (UTC)

Thanks Jsayre64 for bringing that to my attention. Based on that then I would like to propose below for the hook

• ALT5 … that Moses Bensinger (pictured), an initiator of the American Bowling Congress, helped establish the rules and regulations used in modern ten-pin bowling? --Doug Coldwell (talk) 21:54, 31 August 2016 (UTC)
• ALT6 ... that Moses Bensinger (pictured) was the initiator of the rules and regulations used in modern ten-pin bowling that lead to the forming of the American Bowling Congress?

Here is page 25 of Kogan book which supports this.--Doug Coldwell (talk) 22:30, 31 August 2016 (UTC)

This is on page 24 of Kogan book "Brunswick - The Story of an American Company

This inline reference backs the above up. --Doug Coldwell (talk) 11:46, 1 September 2016 (UTC)

@Gatoclass: Bensinger had an interest in getting these standardized because he was the new owner of Brunswick of as 1890 - the producer of bowling components like pins, balls, and alleys. Bensinger had no interest in forming the American Bowling Congress = that just came about from the group of bowlers and proprietors so that they could have national bowling tournaments (where everyone was using the same Rules). Bensinger just had interest in selling equipment = he was a businessman NOT a bowler. As the source says, ...the group had organized the American Bowling Congress. Bensinger did NOT initiate the ABC and the ABC did not initiate the Rules & Regulations. Bensinger had already been working on them since 1890, some 5 years. --Doug Coldwell (talk) 14:33, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

This is complete page 24 of Kogan history book on Brunswick company. --Doug Coldwell (talk) 14:54, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

Kogan book history and purpose.

Bio info about author Rick Kogan --Doug Coldwell (talk) 15:17, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

• It makes perfect sense to me that Bensinger would want to standardize the size of the pins, balls, and alleys. Then he would know what to manufacture = since everyone would be using the same items for bowling, he could mass produce them and sell a lot to make BIG money. It was always in his best interest to get the equipment regulated to standards. So it's logical that he would be the one to initiate' bowling Rules and Regulations = to sell a bunch of equipment, starting in 1890. The ABC was just organized to make a set of Rules for tournaments, with everyone following the same rules and using the SAME equipment to keep a level playing field for everyone.

• Here is page 23 of Kogan's history book on Brunswick that explains what I just said --Doug Coldwell (talk) 17:52, 2 September 2016 (UTC)
• @Gatoclass: Can we go back to my original hook (with "initiator") or to ALT6? Thanks.--Doug Coldwell (talk) 17:52, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

I don't see that your new references above support your original hook. One of them says he "standardized" the rules, but that's not the same as saying he initiated them. In any case, Fram pointed out in this thread that there are sources that credit others and that don't even mention Bensinger, so to promote a hook that claims Bensinger as "the" initiator looks problematic to say the least. Gatoclass (talk) 18:14, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

The Kogan book is published by the Brunswick company, and the inline reference that supports the claim is... a press release by the Brunswick company[1]. A company wanting to promote a former president as the person that was the initiator behind the bowling rules isn't a surprise, but when no independent sources support this and most (all?) contradict this, then such a source is not acceptable at all. Fram (talk) 17:26, 4 September 2016 (UTC)

• ALT 7: … that Moses Bensinger (pictured) helped organize the American Bowling Congress, which played a role in standardizing the rules and regulations used in modern ten-pin bowling? --Jsayre64 (talk) 05:59, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

User:Gatoclass, does ALT 7 work for you, in light of the last couple of postings by Doug Coldwell. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 15:27, 14 September 2016 (UTC)

User:Gatoclass, are you out of this? If not, please respond. If so, can we have another reviewer? 7&6=thirteen (☎) 22:06, 20 September 2016 (UTC)

• The following are sources that support ALT 7 and are inline references already in the article. @Jsayre64: Thanks for proposing this one.--Doug Coldwell (talk) 10:46, 26 September 2016 (UTC)

In 1895 he was part of the group that organized the American Bowling Congress.

The Big Lebowski: An Illustrated, Annotated History of the Greatest Cult By Jenny M. Jones

Chicago City in the Spotlight by Ron Rapoport

The Chicago Sports Reader: 100 Years of Sports in the Windy City By Steven A. Riess, Gerald R. Gems

Sports in America from Colonial Times to the Twenty-First Century By Steven A. Riess

Notable Corporate Chronologies A-K by Julie A. Mitchell

• Article issues have been resolved and is ready for a new review.--Doug Coldwell (talk) 10:46, 26 September 2016 (UTC)
• New reviewer needed. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 14:09, 26 September 2016 (UTC)

Wouldn't it be sufficient to say the "American Bowling Congress standardized the rules and regulations ..." because it seems to be what the sources say. Gatoclass (talk) 14:35, 26 September 2016 (UTC)

• ALT 8: … that Moses Bensinger (pictured) helped organize the American Bowling Congress, which standardized modern ten-pin bowling's rules? 7&6=thirteen (☎) 14:45, 26 September 2016 (UTC)

That looks better IMO. I'm not going to complete the review on this one right now as I just did a bunch of reviews and want a break from it, but I will try to get back to this in the next day or two if nobody else has done so in the meantime. Gatoclass (talk) 15:00, 26 September 2016 (UTC)

Just taking a quick look at the article, I notice it still contains the claim that "Bensinger was the initiator of the official rules and regulations used in the sport of modern ten-pin bowling", which is one of the statements previously objected to in the hook, so I think that will have to go before this can be promoted. Gatoclass (talk) 15:04, 26 September 2016 (UTC)

Yes, and it is still in the sources because he did it. WP:Truth and WP:Reliable. With respect, I for one will not engage in Revisionist history.

In any event, that fact and the citations have nothing to do with the hooks as presently constituted. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 15:48, 26 September 2016 (UTC)

To elucidate further, these have sources that have not yet been added to the article due to concerns, notwithstanding concerns about Citation overkill. Here are more sources:

• Cayton, Andrew R. L., Editor; Sisson, Richard; Zacher, Chris. The American Midwest: An Interpretive Encyclopedia. Retrieved September 26, 2016. In 1895, Moses Bensinger of the Brunswick Company founded the primarily midwestern American Bowling Congress. {{cite book}}: |first1= has generic name (help)CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)
• Pfister, Gertrud. Gymnastics, a Transatlantic Movement: From Europe to America. Retrieved September 26, 2016. Moses Bensinger since the 1870s, engineered mergers with business rivals and orchestrated the founding of the ABC, which standardized rules and equipment."
• International Directory of Company Histories. Vol. 77. p. 70. Retrieved September 26, 2016. Bensinger also was instrumental in organizing the American Bowling Congress in 1895.

If you want we can add strike these to from the article. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 16:15, 26 September 2016 (UTC)

You apparently want to strike the following:<block quote> Bensinger was the initiator of the official rules and regulations used in the sport of modern ten-pin bowling and promoted them in the early 1890s throughout the United States. He helped found the American Bowling Congress in 1895, which set in place a legislative body that enforced these rules and regulations for all to follow as the standard for the game of bowling.</block quote> That is what the sources say. WP:RS, WP:Verifiability. Sorry you don't like them, but insisting that this has to be bowdlerized as a condition precedent to getting DYK approval is wrong-headed. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 17:23, 26 September 2016 (UTC)

• There are no other references that say anything different. We have to go with what the references say.--Doug Coldwell (talk) 17:16, 26 September 2016 (UTC)

Yes, there are references that say different, which is how we ended up here in the first place. And none of the sources provided above support the statement that "Bensinger was the initiator of the official rules and regulations used in the sport of modern ten-pin bowling" except those published by Brunswick, which, as Fram already pointed out above, is not an independent source. Gatoclass (talk) 17:56, 26 September 2016 (UTC)

@Jsayre64: 's ALT7 says Bensinger helped organize the American Bowling Congress and the many references in the article that support this are NOT from Brunswick, but from independent historians that have no connection to Brunswick. If you have ACTUAL reference sources that say different than these sources please tell me what they are. Thanks. -- Doug Coldwell (talk) 18:29, 26 September 2016 (UTC)

How about paying attention to the subject under discussion? We have already settled on a hook, namely, ALT8. The issue now is that the article still states that "Bensinger was the initiator of the official rules and regulations used in the sport of modern ten-pin bowling" when that was already rejected as a hook. There are no sources for the given statement other than those from Brunswick, so what I have said is that the statement should also be removed from the article. Gatoclass (talk) 18:37, 26 September 2016 (UTC)

Didn't realize ALT8 was settled on. Took out that wording to expedite getting this nomination approved quickly then. -- Doug Coldwell (talk) 18:51, 26 September 2016 (UTC)

@Gatoclass: I assume then since this was the only concern and I took out those words that was holding up ALT 8, then this will be the hook that is approved and we are Good To Go? --Doug Coldwell (talk) 19:16, 26 September 2016 (UTC)

Gatoclass If we are good to go we need a tick? 7&6=thirteen (☎) 12:53, 7 October 2016 (UTC)

My apologies for the long delay in getting back to this. I haven't forgotten about this nom, but just haven't been able to find time to look at it again. I will try to do so some time over the next few days if someone else hasn't done so by then. Gatoclass (talk) 14:24, 7 October 2016 (UTC)

• ALT 9 ... that Moses Bensinger (pictured) helped coordinate and was the prominent figure in bringing about the initial set of organized rules and regulations for the sport of modern ten-pin bowling? --Doug Coldwell (talk) 10:48, 26 October 2016 (UTC)
• Firstly, apologies once again for the long delay in getting back to this - I currently have a case of DYK burnout. In reviewing this nomination again, I had hoped to be able to verify it, but unfortunately, while I've been taking a break, most of the sources listed above have become unavailable to me. Regardless, I think there is enough sourcing to confirm that Bensinger "helped to organize the American Bowling Congress", what is missing is sourcing which establishes that the ABC "standardized the rules of ten-pin bowling". If some sourcing for the latter were added, I think we would have a viable hook. Gatoclass (talk) 10:18, 30 October 2016 (UTC)
• @Gatoclass: - I believe that ref #23 of New Rules for Bowlers would fit the bill on that. Good To Go?--Doug Coldwell (talk) 10:36, 30 October 2016 (UTC)

That's a start, but an 1895 source is obviously very dated. A couple of modern sources would do the trick I think. Gatoclass (talk) 10:42, 30 October 2016 (UTC)

• @Gatoclass: Also what is additional is this newspaper clipping of ref #25 of Bowling. --Doug Coldwell (talk) 10:50, 30 October 2016 (UTC)
• @Gatoclass: Also additional is ref #26 of Organization Best for Bowling. --Doug Coldwell (talk) 10:56, 30 October 2016 (UTC)

These references are helpful, but they look like press releases from the ABC itself. What you need are one or two modern, independent sources validating the work and importance of the ABC. Gatoclass (talk) 11:02, 30 October 2016 (UTC)

• @Gatoclass: Here are some more references for that -

Ref #28 of New Bowling Rules in Vogue This Season

Ref #29 Congrees--Doug Coldwell (talk) 11:37, 30 October 2016 (UTC)

Ref #27 of History of Bowling --Doug Coldwell (talk) 11:52, 30 October 2016 (UTC)

• I asked for "modern, independent sources" and you give me stuff from 1900. Never mind, I have found a couple of sources for you: this one (page 27) and this one (page 66). Add those to the article and hopefully we can wrap this one up. Gatoclass (talk) 12:05, 30 October 2016 (UTC)
• @Gatoclass: - Added those references to the article as you suggested. Good To Go?--Doug Coldwell (talk) 12:34, 30 October 2016 (UTC)
• @Doug Coldwell: Thanks Doug! It's getting late here and I'm tired now, so I will try to wrap this one up tomorrow. Regards, Gatoclass (talk) 12:43, 30 October 2016 (UTC)
  • Also noting that the article was new and big enough, cited, and no copyright infringement. Leaving final decision for Gatoclass. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 00:04, 31 October 2016 (UTC)
• I really don't know what to do with this article at the moment. I didn't get right back to this initially because I saw it needed a bit of editing first, but in taking a closer look, it's really pretty chaotic and half the article has virtually nothing to do with Bensinger, instead it has information about the ABC's rules and regulations which probably belong in the ABC article, then it has more paragraphs on somebody called William Thompson which again have little to do with Bensinger. The salient points about Bensinger - that he made bowling an important part of the Brunswick company's manufactures, and that he worked to standardize bowling's rules in order to increase sales of his product - are not clearly made and are being overwhelmed by all the extraneous information. I would really like to see the article get a cleanup before it gets featured on the main page. Gatoclass (talk) 10:15, 8 November 2016 (UTC)
  • @Gatoclass: But, respectfully, that's not what DYK is. This isn't a Good Article nomination. It's the hook that matters, and the article being within policy and 1500+ characters of prose. Jsayre64 (talk) 00:38, 11 November 2016 (UTC)

@Jsayre64: DYK articles don't have to be GA standard but they do have to meet a minimum standard. As it happens, Doug Coldwell has removed a lot of the extraneous content which helps a lot, but the article still needs a little bit of work and I will try to find some time to work on it in the next few days. Gatoclass (talk) 05:49, 11 November 2016 (UTC)

@Gatoclass: What minimum standard? Yes, there are standards - they're right here, and explained here and here. But nowhere does it say you should block a nomination just because you think the article should be of higher quality. In fact, the rules page explains: "Articles must meet the basic criteria set out on this page but do not have to be of very high quality. It is fine for articles to be incomplete (though not unfinished), to have red links, to be capable of being expanded or improved further, and so on." Sure, maybe much of the background info. about the A.B.C. should be moved to the United States Bowling Congress article – I'll let you go for it, @Doug Coldwell:. But that's a separate matter. We need a fair review. Jsayre64 (talk) 21:09, 11 November 2016 (UTC)

• I am going to put the tick for ALT8. The remaining issues are not affecting the DYK eligibility of the article. Based on previous assessments, and checking the article still remains big and referenced enough this is still OK to go. PS picture is OK to use. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 22:23, 11 November 2016 (UTC)

• Hi, I came by to promote this after its long stay on the template page, but I found that most of the section about the American Bowling Congress belonged on that page, so I moved it there. Then I found that there is no American Bowling Congress page, but United States Bowling Congress, so the links need to be changed and the present-tense tone of the section put into past tense. If I moved something I shouldn't have that wrecked this hook, please put it back and I will reconsider this nomination. Thanks, Yoninah (talk) 23:05, 12 November 2016 (UTC)

• Comment There was no reason to remove that material, even if you now want to create another article aboout the American Bowling Congress. We have overlap in articles all the time.

The material needed to support the hooks (which you removed as a Self fulfilling prophecy of doom) has been restored.
Enough with this already. How long must this go on? How many extra miles do you want to add to this marathon? And to what end? Many times, it has been properly promoted and should be added to a queu. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 14:44, 13 November 2016 (UTC)

• I added a mention of the United States Bowling Congress to the following line, but saying that "The organization, since incorporated into the United States Bowling Congress, standardized and still governs all bowling equipment as well for modern ten-pin bowling" and then quoting a source from 1960 looks odd. Do you have a more up-to-date source for this sentence and, by connection, the hook? Yoninah (talk) 17:25, 13 November 2016 (UTC)
• @Yoninah: in reply to your question about references for the hook -> Gatoclass said that everyone including himself had "already agreed" on ALT 8, when I brought to his attention @Jsayre64: ALT 7. He said he preferred ALT 8 = that is fine with me. @Graeme Bartlett: ticked and approved ALT 8 as Good To Go. I believe he used the article references in the "American Bowling Congress" section of #8, #9, #17, #18, #19, #20, #25, #26, #27, #28, #29, #30, #31, #32. In reply to your question of the A.B.C. organization since incorporated into the United States Bowling Congress -> if you don't like that sentence, I suppose you could take it out of the article = as it does not affect the hook one way or the other. So are you the one that will be placing the hook in the Prep queue or will it be Gatoclass = he has told me he was going to do it after I did certain things he suggested, which I did. --Doug Coldwell (talk) 18:39, 13 November 2016 (UTC)

• OK. Restoring tick for ALT8. Yoninah (talk) 21:23, 13 November 2016 (UTC)