Template:Did you know nominations/Marina Kondratyeva

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: rejected by reviewer, closed by BorgQueen talk 19:13, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

Marina Kondratyeva

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Kondratyeva as Giselle in 1972.jpg

~~... that Marina Kondratyeva (pictured), a leading ballerina and later master tutor of the Bolshoi Ballet, ...?~~ Source: [1]
ALT1 ... that ballerina Marina Kondratyeva (pictured) was said to be "weightless, airy, poetic and spiritual"? Source [2]
ALT2 ... that ballerina Marina Kondratyeva (pictured) performed in London in 1956 during the Cold War, with the Bolshoi troupe? Source [3]
ALT3 ... that ballerina Marina Kondratyeva (pictured) taught her Bolshoi pupils to fill a role with individual character? Source [4]
ALT4 ... that ballerina Marina Kondratyeva (pictured) served the Bolshoi Ballet and its school for over 70 years? Source [5] Storye book (talk) 14:23, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
- Reviewed: ~~to come~~ Charles de Geer
- Comment: This ballerina and later master tutor of the Bolshoi Ballet in a career spanning 70 years had no article yet, and I believe should be known (beyond the appearance in Recent deaths). I also believe that the image would transfer much better than any words what she stood for, or soared for. If you feel the same please donate a hook. I am tired of having mine rejected. I'll be out for the day, but will review later. You can pick from the lead:
  Marina Viktorovna Kondratyeva (Russian: Марина Викторовна Кондратьева, pronounced [mɐˈrʲinə ˈvʲiktərəvnə kɐnˈdratʲjɪvə]; 1 February 1934 – 8 July 2024) was a Russian ballerina at the Bolshoi Ballet. Described as "weightless, airy, poetic and spiritual", she is known for roles such as Juliet in Prokofiev's Romeo and Juliet and as Adam's Giselle. She toured with the troupe to London and the Metropolitan Opera. She became a master tutor at the Bolshoi, passing the troupe's tradition for decades.

5x expanded by Thriley (talk) and Gerda Arendt (talk). Number of QPQs required: 1. Nominator has 2110 past nominations.

Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:52, 18 July 2024 (UTC).

Note 1: I have added ALTs 1–4. Note 2. If the qpq is delayed, please contact me, because I can donate a qpq. (I am not reviewing this).. Storye book (talk) 14:23, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
Thanks for the offers. I reviewed Template:Did you know nominations/Charles De Geer. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:00, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
The full review is to follow, but taking a look at the article and the sources, there are multiple statements that are not supported by the sources. These include:

Being recommended by Vaganova to the Moscow Choreographic School's class (Vaganova's name appears nowhere in the linked Bolshoi Theatre profile).
Being trained by Marina Semionova, and being trained by her exclusively (Semionova is not mentioned either in the Bolshoi page or the Die Welt source).
Developing the performance traditions of Galina Ulanova (neither Ulanova nor the developing of the traditions are in the source).

This is still an incomplete list as I haven't checked every statement yet, but the issues need to be resolved before the article can be passed. In addition, large parts of the article are cited to the Bolshoi Theatre's website. I'm personally okay with that as I think the statements they provide are uncontroversial, but other editors have a stricter reading of WP:PRIMARY and thus may object to the heavy reliance on that single website, especially when the theatre was her long-time employer. I can see the article being brought up at WT:DYK or ERRORS if the issue isn't resolved. The article was created on July 9 and was nominated on the 18th, which is two days late. However, per the guidelines and given the shortness of the delay I'm willing to allow an IAR exemption in this case.

Among the hooks, ALT4 is perhaps the best option, but it's not directly supported by either the source or the article. The hook says she served the theatre for over 70 years, but the article instead refers to the 70th anniversary of her joining, and there is no mention if she remained part of the theatre the whole time or not. The source also does not refer to her serving the theatre for 70 years, only the anniversary. If ALT4 cannot be used, ALT1 is the best backup option: it is verified in the source. The other options do not seem to meet DYKINT and are thus struck. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 13:46, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

The Bolshoi Theatre is one of few sources about her in English. Is there any fear of its pages about her being promotional? Another source is The New York Times, which has a headline: "Ballet: Bolshoi's 'Giselle' Is a Delight / Marina Kondratieva Excels in Title Role / Poise and Authority Infuse Company". GRuban, I am sure that there is secondary source coverage in Russian - during her dancing career and her tutoring career, which is very tedious for me to find, translate and put in perspective. Help? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:09, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

The issue isn't necessarily promotion but rather the use of primary sources themselves. See WP:PRIMARY: Do not base an entire article on primary sources, and be cautious about basing large passages on them. Basing large parts of the article on primary sources like the Bolshoi article isn't necessarily wrong or prohibited, but it can raise alarm bells especially for other editors. At the very least they're not ideal, especially when interpretations get involved. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 02:28, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

I know that, have known it four more than a decade. Repeating, also: I am sure there was a lot of coverage in secondary sources but in a language I don't speak, so I'd have a hard time to find them.

ALT5: ... that when Marina Kondratyeva appeared as Giselle (pictured) with the Bolshoi Ballet at the Metropolitan Opera in 1962, the headline of the New York Times said that she excelled in the title role? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:19, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Regardless of what hook to use (I'm personally not a fan of ALT5 due to being too detailed and not being direct to the point, and let's be honest here, being praised for performing the lead role isn't exactly a hooky hook), the issuse with primary sourcing and the unsupported statements need to be addressed. Otherwise, the nomination may have to be failed for not meeting the guidelines. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 10:44, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

I am busy with Wolfgang Rihm, and I hope for GRuban's help. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:10, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

The issues regarding unsupported statements and the heavy use of primary/non-independent sources remain unresolved, and indeed no edits have been made to address them. As such, unfortunately the nomination is marked for closure. With a big orange {{primary sources}} tag on the article, the nom can't be approved anyway without that being resolved. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 03:37, 6 August 2024 (UTC)