The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by Yoninah (talk) 01:42, 30 May 2019 (UTC)
... that former television executive Mark Horvath (pictured), who was once homeless himself, has produced interviews with hundreds of homeless people in over 100 cities with InvisiblePeople.tv? Sources: "Fourteen years ago, Mark Horvath was in crisis. The former exec was living on the streets in Hollywood, California ..." CNN, " Horvath spent eight years in the early 1990s crawling out of homelessness and addiction and fell back into hard times in 2007. While looking for work, he decided to use his skills as a former television producer to film interviews with homeless people to give them a voice and to spark action...He has since visited more than 100 American cities and interviewed hundreds of homeless people." Toronto Star, and several others cited in the article.
ALT1:... that InvisiblePeople.tv, which has produced interviews with hundreds of homeless people in over 100 cities, was founded by formerly-homeless television executive Mark Horvath (pictured)? Sources: "Fourteen years ago, Mark Horvath was in crisis. The former exec was living on the streets in Hollywood, California ..." CNN, " Horvath spent eight years in the early 1990s crawling out of homelessness and addiction and fell back into hard times in 2007. While looking for work, he decided to use his skills as a former television producer to film interviews with homeless people to give them a voice and to spark action...He has since visited more than 100 American cities and interviewed hundreds of homeless people." Toronto Star, and several others cited in the article.
ALT2:... that InvisiblePeople.tv has produced interviews with hundreds of homeless people in over 100 cities? Source: "...has produced interviews with hundreds of homeless people in over 100 cities..." Toronto Star
Reviewed: This is my 4th DYK. Will QPQ after 5.
Comment: I'm not sure how to best phrase the hook. Thanks in advance for looking at this!
Created by Levivich (talk). Self-nominated at 17:34, 29 April 2019 (UTC).
Overall: I like hook ALT1 best. I tweaked the picture description on Commons a bit; but why did you save it as PNG? Photos, especially photos from Flickr, are usually JPG. Not a DYK issue, of course. GRuban (talk) 17:53, 21 May 2019 (UTC)
GRuban, thank you for taking the time to review! I got the pic from Flickr and I guess it was a PNG there. (I did not take the photo or post it to Flickr.) It looks blurry as a thumbnail for me–maybe that's because it's a PNG instead of a JPG? I know very little about images but I can probably convert it to a JPG and re-upload it if that would be helpful. – Levivich 18:06, 21 May 2019 (UTC)
Um...? https://www.flickr.com/photos/stewtopia/3851284988/in/photostream/ is the source. When I click on the download button (the downward pointing arrow to the right), then select Original, I get a JPG. And it's pretty good resolution, too, 3888 x 2592. Did you download the image, or just take a screenshot of the picture as shown on your computer screen? --GRuban (talk) 18:35, 21 May 2019 (UTC)
You're right, that wasn't a Flickr2Commons transfer. I think I did take a screenshot! Silly me. I just looked into it to figure out what I was thinking with this upload and now I realize it didn't transfer or upload for me because of (I think) HTML code in the metadata of the original JPG file from Flickr. I must have just taken a screenshot as a workaround for that, and you've now pointed out why that was a bad idea (thank you). I read the Commons FAQ about this (shoulda done that a month ago) so I think I know what I need to do to strip the metadata and re-upload the file as a full-size JPG, which I'll do later today. And I guess at that point I'll tag the old PNG file for deletion (which I'll have to look up how to do on Commons). Last question: should I crop and/or flip the image, as I did with the PNG, or leave it alone? (In the original, he faces to the right.) I've heard conflicting opinions on that: what's your thought? Thanks again for your help with this. – Levivich 18:58, 21 May 2019 (UTC)
Yeah, I saw that HTML in the EXIF issue. Still downloading the full size JPG is a good idea, even if you have to reupload it "manually", and not using the Commons built-in Flickr tools. You can then crop, and replace the image both in the article and here in this DYK nomination, I won't say anything! If it doesn't work for you, drop me a note and I'll do it for you. I've uploaded an image or two in my time. Flipping ... eh ... I've also read the "image should face into the article" advice somewhere, though admit I don't follow it myself, because people aren't completely symmetrical, so flipping an image isn't really what the person looks like. That said, people's faces are mostly symmetrical (with some exceptions), so if you do flip it, users probably won't notice. Your call. --GRuban (talk) 19:11, 21 May 2019 (UTC)
LOL about the exceptions... I felt flippant so I flipped it. I think I've set it all straight, with the full-res JPG now up there and a crop (I went with 3:4 instead of 4:3 this time), and I tagged the old PNGs {duplicate}. Thanks again for all your help and advice! – Levivich 23:16, 21 May 2019 (UTC)
Hi, I came by to promote this, but we don't post names of people on the main page who are not notable enough for their own Wikipedia article. We could use ALT1 without his name. Personally, I think you could do a lot better with the hook. One of the positive outcomes is much more colorful than just saying they interview homeless people. Yoninah (talk) 22:59, 25 May 2019 (UTC)
What do you think of: ALT3: ... that InvisiblePeople.tv's interviews with homeless people in Arkansas led to the creation of a farm that fed over 150 homeless people per week? – Levivich 02:10, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
@Yoninah: "we don't post names of people on the main page who are not notable enough for their own Wikipedia article." Since when? We had two in DYK just this month. In fact the second was promoted by you. From Wikipedia:Recent_additions:
2 May 2019 Template:Did you know nominations/Robert Nasmyth ... that Robert Nasmyth was Surgeon-Dentist to Queen Victoria in Scotland, while his brother Alexander was Surgeon-Dentist to her in England?
@GRuban: I had nothing to do with the first one. The second one was connected to the main article, so I let it pass. We have page-watchers at ERRORS and ERRORS2 who are going to jump all over this if the person doesn't have an article. Yoninah (talk) 19:53, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
ALT4: ... that InvisiblePeople.tv has filmed interviews with hundreds of people living on the streets in the US, UK, Canada, and Peru? Yoninah (talk) 19:59, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
The page watchers somehow didn't jump all over these two this month. Is this rule documented anywhere? It's hard to imagine something more "connected to the main article" than the founder of what was originally a one-person project. --GRuban (talk) 20:05, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
I'll ask for consensus on this point at WT:DYK. Yoninah (talk) 20:07, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
FWIW, I'm fine with any alternative hook, I'm more surprised by the rule. Which I'll take up at WT:DYK, I guess.--GRuban (talk) 20:32, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
I'm good with any of the hooks, too (inc. Alt4), and I have no idea about DYK rules as this is only my 4th one :-) – Levivich 21:55, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
Well, it looks like the consensus is to run hooks that name people who don't necessarily have a Wikipedia article. (Personally, I think a one-paragraph stub should be created so we can blue-link it and avoid last-minute hook pulling). Levivich, would you like to go ahead with ALT0 or ALT1, or do you think ALT4 works better? Regarding ALT0 and ALT1, the word "homeless" is repeated twice, which should be fixed. Yoninah (talk) 20:54, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
How about combining ALT1 and ALT4: ALT5: ... that InvisiblePeople.tv, founded by formerly-homeless television executive Mark Horvath (pictured), has filmed interviews with hundreds of people living on the streets in the US, UK, Canada, and Peru?
or ALT6: ... that InvisiblePeople.tv, which has filmed interviews with hundreds of people living on the streets in the US, UK, Canada, and Peru, was founded by formerly-homeless television executive Mark Horvath (pictured)? Also, I'm not opposed to making a stub for Horvath. – Levivich 01:32, 29 May 2019 (UTC)
When it comes to hooks, shorter is always better. If you say too much in the hook, the reader doesn't need to click on the article. FYI, the picture will probably not be used, considering he's not notable enough for his own page. Yoninah (talk) 10:27, 29 May 2019 (UTC)
Let's go with ALT4 then. – Levivich 16:03, 29 May 2019 (UTC)
OK. @GRuban: could you review ALT4 please? Yoninah (talk) 19:15, 29 May 2019 (UTC)
I'll accept it if Lev prefers, but I do think that mentioning that the founder was a homeless TV executive is more "hooky". We don't even have to say his name if Yon and Lev are against it. There are lots of homeless support organizations, and while I haven't done a formal survey, I wouldn't be surprised if many or most of them do filming as part of their fundraising, outreach, and whatnot; there aren't many headed by a former homeless television executive. --GRuban (talk) 21:15, 29 May 2019 (UTC)
Sorry if I was confusing; I'm definitely not against it. I agree, the most interesting thing about this organization is that it was started by a formerly-homeless television executive. "TV exec becomes homeless, picks up a camera and starts filming" is "the story" here, in my opinion. I think the bit about it spreading to over 100 cities demonstrates the widespread success. I'm good with absolutely any of these hooks, but I'm going to bow out here. Whatever you guys decide is good with me. Thank you! – Levivich 01:19, 30 May 2019 (UTC)
No problem. Restoring your tick for ALT1. Please keep an eye on the hook as it moves through the prep sets and queues, and even on the main page, to check that no one pulls it because of the notability issue. Yoninah (talk) 01:40, 30 May 2019 (UTC)
.jpg)
I like hook ALT1 best. I tweaked the picture description on Commons a bit; but why did you save it as PNG? Photos, especially photos from Flickr, are usually JPG. Not a DYK issue, of course. GRuban (talk) 17:53, 21 May 2019 (UTC)
If it doesn't work for you, drop me a note and I'll do it for you. I've uploaded an image or two in my time. Flipping ... eh ... I've also read the "image should face into the article" advice somewhere, though admit I don't follow it myself, because people aren't completely symmetrical, so flipping an image isn't really what the person looks like. That said, people's faces are mostly symmetrical (with some exceptions), so if you do flip it, users probably won't notice. Your call. --GRuban (talk) 19:11, 21 May 2019 (UTC)
Hi, I came by to promote this, but we don't post names of people on the main page who are not notable enough for their own Wikipedia article. We could use ALT1 without his name. Personally, I think you could do a lot better with the hook. One of the positive outcomes is much more colorful than just saying they interview homeless people. Yoninah (talk) 22:59, 25 May 2019 (UTC)
