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The following discussion is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Allen3 talk 10:22, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

DYK toolbox

H. Hugh Fudenberg

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* ... that H. Hugh Fudenberg, a retired clinical immunologist, claimed in 1997 that receiving more than five flu shots annually raises your risk of Alzheimer's Disease tenfold?

Created/expanded by Jinkinson (talk). Self nominated at 14:43, 31 August 2013 (UTC).

  • A few things should be improved before this article reaches the DYK queue.
  • The lead is too short and should be expanded.
  • The primary source and its all inclusive list of notable awards needs independent verification and some mention within the article before highlighting it in an infobox as extracted key points.
  • The section about license revocation, findings of culpability, and imposed sanctions needs to include prose to answer why/how they all came about.
  • The hook should remove "claimed", an expression of doubt which biases neutrality. I suggest:
ALT1 ... that in 1997 H. Hugh Fudenberg, a retired clinical immunologist, said that receiving more than five flu shots annually raises your risk of Alzheimer's disease tenfold?
Other areas can be improved, and improvements are welcome; they are not specifically listed as they wouldn't in current form hinder the article from achieving DYK's criteria.—John Cline (talk) 04:08, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
  • Perhaps mention where the talk was given: ... that H. Hugh Fudenberg, a retired clinical immunologist, claimed at an anti-vaccination conference in 1997 that receiving more than five flu shots annually raises your risk of Alzheimer's Disease tenfold". Anti-vaccination links to the vaccination controversies article which explains the issues generally. Note that this was also after he lost his medical license. Reading the article there are also uncontroversial hooks as well, e.g "... the research of H. Hugh Fudenberg, conducted primarily in the 1960s and 1970s, focused on immunoglobulin and receptors for this molecule in human monocytes, as well as the ability of red blood cells to, in vitro, form "rosette" formations around peripheral blood lymphocytes?" IRWolfie- (talk) 09:22, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
Alternatively you could mention his work in collaboration with Andrew Wakefield, where Wakefields work was shown to be fraudulent. The article also fails to mention that Fudenberg lost his medical license because of his dubious autism treatments which is discussed in the source: [1], IRWolfie- (talk) 10:07, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
This has been noted (by me), and I will work on these suggested improvements when I have the time. Also, I wasn't sure why there is a sentence fragment, "I think an expression of doubt", on this page, so I have removed it. Jinkinson (talk) 11:55, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
Sorry the "I think an expression of doubt" was something I wrote, then I changed what I was going to say but forgot to remove it, IRWolfie- (talk) 13:21, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for working on this article IRWolfie. To me it looks as though the points raised by John Cline have all been addressed. Also I think we should change the hook to alt1. Jinkinson (talk) 16:20, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
  • I think this hook is severely lacking in context (even for a DYK hook) and borderline misleading. I don't think that any actual scientific authority believes that >5 flu shots raises the risk of dementia. None. This is a totally scientifically unsupported, if not outright discredited, claim. But the hook presents it credulously, and even with an appeal to authority ("retired clinical immunologist"). I'll admit that I have a burr under my saddle about Wikipedia's promotion of misleading or dangerous medical misinformation, so maybe I'm over-reacting... but I'm not at all comfortable with the proposed hooks. I mean, couldn't the hook just as easily (and perhaps more accurately) say: "... that in 1997 H. Hugh Fudenberg, a retired clinical immunologist whose medical license was suspended for 'dishonorable, unethical, or unprofessional conduct', argued that multiple flu vaccines ..."? MastCell Talk 20:44, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
Ditto to MastCell. II (t - c) 21:13, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
Okay then, I guess we'll scrap the flu shot thing. How about "...that H. Hugh Fudenberg was the first to claim that the MMR vaccine might cause autism, having done so two years before Andrew Wakefield?" Just throwing ideas around. Jinkinson (talk) 22:01, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
The issue is the lack of context. There is always the option of my proposal which goes along the non-controversial route ( "... the research of H. Hugh Fudenberg, conducted primarily in the 1960s and 1970s, focused on immunoglobulin and receptors for this molecule in human monocytes, as well as the ability of red blood cells to, in vitro, form "rosette" formations around peripheral blood lymphocytes?" ). Then those attracted will see the Wakefield fraud related material in the proper context, IRWolfie- (talk) 00:27, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

I notice no one has commented on this in a few days. Is this page ready? Have we decided which hook we're going with? I personally prefer the one that mentions Wakefield. Jinkinson (talk) 00:20, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

I should clarify that my involvement with this article has progressed beyond that of a neutral reviewer. I am in fact interested in the outcome and vested in the content with several edits. The DYK nomination awaits a neutral review at this time. Thank you for your participation and hopeful understanding. I wish you the best.—John Cline (talk) 00:28, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
  • Surely five flu shots annually (i.e. five shots every year) can't be what's meant -- perhaps what's meant is five annual flu shots??? EEng (talk) 03:53, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
I agree that the present form is completely ambiguous as written; a good catch, that had gotten by me. To my understanding; the whole discussion regarding an alternate hook is still open, and unresolved? And now there's additional justification for submission of a valid ALT2 for consideration.— Preceding unsigned comment added by John Cline (talk • contribs) 04:14, 18 September 2013‎
Striking original and ALT1 hooks; an ALT2 is needed if this nomination is to be considered further. The article quotes Maher as saying "more than five years in a row"; the source (FN19) for Fudenberg's statement quotes him as comparing five consecutive annual shots to zero through two shots. I think this section of the article could be more precise in its language. I do have to ask, though: what makes an individual chiropractor's website a reliable source? BlueMoonset (talk) 14:11, 26 September 2013 (UTC)
  • That is a good question, BlueMoonset. I don't have a particularly good answer, but I will say it (and similar quack or antivax websites like this one) was all I could find. As for an alt2, MastCell has pointed out an important fact, namely that Fudenberg's claims about flu shots are not supported by any evidence and therefore shouldn't be presented as uncritically as I had originally proposed. I therefore propose the following hook instead:
It seems ridiculous enough that if we present it by itself people will know it is not supported by evidence. Jinkinson (talk) 15:15, 26 September 2013 (UTC)
  • Comment: It seems the mainstream media has taken to parroting Fudenberg's bogus claims as well: [2]

Look for "tenfold higher risk of Alzheimer's" near the beginning of the article. Jinkinson (talk) 00:55, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

  • Okay, ALT2 good to go. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 08:30, 14 October 2013 (UTC)
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