Template:Did you know nominations/Another Lonely Night (Adam Lambert song)
- The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by 97198 (talk) 11:08, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
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Another Lonely Night (Adam Lambert song)
[edit]... that the music video for Another Lonely Night has a transvestite as its protagonist?
5x expanded by Tobyjamesaus (talk) and Launchballer (talk). Nominated by Launchballer (talk) at 00:24, 22 October 2015 (UTC).
Launchballer and/or Tobyjamesaus - is Gigi Gorgeous transvestite or transgender? I'm not trying to be POINTy, I really don't know and her bio only says "transgender." I don't, frankly, even know what the difference is, though I think there is one. Let me know if I'm mistaken and I'll continue the review. LavaBaron (talk) 07:10, 24 October 2015 (UTC)
- My guess would be that a transvestite acts like the opposite gender while a transgender's got the job done, so to speak, but I don't know so do seek comment from WP:LGBT.--Launchballer 08:38, 24 October 2015 (UTC)
Unclear what's going on here. Someone else will have to take over. LavaBaron (talk) 01:39, 28 October 2015 (UTC)
- Launchballer and LavaBaron (and anyone else who's curious): a transvestite wears clothing (sometimes also cosmetics and/or a wig) in order to temporarily mimic the appearance of a gender not their own; a transgender person, by contrast, has a gender identity which does not match the gender they were presumed to have based on their appearance at birth, and this gender identity is typically constant rather than intermittent, though it may only be expressed intermittently for a variety of reasons. It's a reasonable distinction to find confusing, so I don't think either of you need worry you've offended anyone by not being sure what the difference is. It is, however, considered offensive by many people to refer to a transgender woman as a transvestite, largely because it discounts their gender identity and is one of the many ways transgender women are told "you're really a man!" So I would certainly advise changing the wording of the hook. —GrammarFascist contribstalk 16:14, 28 October 2015 (UTC)
- The ironic thing is, there was a transvestite on last week's The Almost Impossible Game Show which I only caught up on last night, which first went out before LavaBaron's first comment.
ALT1: ... that the music video for Another Lonely Night has a transgender as its protagonist?--Launchballer 17:24, 28 October 2015 (UTC)- Closer!
But "transgender" when used to refer to a person is an adjective, not a noun, and therefore should have a noun after it. (It can be used as a noun when referring to the concept or phenomeneon of being transgender, but not in reference to people. As for why it isn't transgendered if it's an adjective, that's a grammar battle that was lost before I was ever aware there was a question.) Sorry for being less helpful with the wording than I could be, LB, but I'm trying not to render myself ineligible to review the nomination for you, so the wording of the hook needs to be yours. —GrammarFascist contribstalk 19:37, 28 October 2015 (UTC)
- Where are you when I'm watching Countdown (game show)? Certain word types are excluded on that program's letter selections, and I always get them muddled up...
ALT2: ... that the music video for Another Lonely Night has a transvestite woman as its protagonist?--Launchballer 20:57, 28 October 2015 (UTC)- ALT3: ... that the music video for Another Lonely Night has a transgender woman as its protagonist?
- That's what we were going for. (You might want to strike the other verisons so nobody mistakes them for attempts at causing intentional offense.) Somebody else would now have to evaluate the hook, but if you have no objection I'd still be glad to review the rest of the nomination for you? Oh, and when you're watching that show, I'm across the pond, not even owning a TV.
—GrammarFascist contribstalk 21:07, 28 October 2015 (UTC) - I was looking at ALT3, thinking "what's the difference?" until I realised my typo. I can advise I had intended "transgender" rather than "transvestite" but forgot to change it. Review the article and I will come up with another hook later.--Launchballer 21:17, 28 October 2015 (UTC)
- I'm sorry to back-out of this review, but it has become too complicated for me to follow. The article seems fine, but there are obviously nuances that demand a careful check that is not within my scope of competence to offer. Would you mind taking-over this review, Fascist? LavaBaron (talk) 21:37, 28 October 2015 (UTC)
- I'm more than happy to review the nomination aside from the hook, and I'm hoping Notecardforfree will be willing to evaluate just the hook as a mini QPQ for my reviewing just the hook of a music-related nomination they're doing the rest of the review for. I think it's a great hook (the wording is mostly yours, Launchballer) though I haven't yet considered what other facts from the article might make good ones. I'll probably have to wait until tomorrow (it's still Wednesday for me) to start, but as I said I'm otherwise glad to do this review. —GrammarFascist contribstalk 01:10, 29 October 2015 (UTC)
- Where are you when I'm watching Countdown (game show)? Certain word types are excluded on that program's letter selections, and I always get them muddled up...
- Closer!
- The ironic thing is, there was a transvestite on last week's The Almost Impossible Game Show which I only caught up on last night, which first went out before LavaBaron's first comment.
- Launchballer and LavaBaron (and anyone else who's curious): a transvestite wears clothing (sometimes also cosmetics and/or a wig) in order to temporarily mimic the appearance of a gender not their own; a transgender person, by contrast, has a gender identity which does not match the gender they were presumed to have based on their appearance at birth, and this gender identity is typically constant rather than intermittent, though it may only be expressed intermittently for a variety of reasons. It's a reasonable distinction to find confusing, so I don't think either of you need worry you've offended anyone by not being sure what the difference is. It is, however, considered offensive by many people to refer to a transgender woman as a transvestite, largely because it discounts their gender identity and is one of the many ways transgender women are told "you're really a man!" So I would certainly advise changing the wording of the hook. —GrammarFascist contribstalk 16:14, 28 October 2015 (UTC)
- My guess would be that a transvestite acts like the opposite gender while a transgender's got the job done, so to speak, but I don't know so do seek comment from WP:LGBT.--Launchballer 08:38, 24 October 2015 (UTC)
This article was 5x expanded the week before nomination and QPQ is satisfied. Unfortunately, there are a few issues with this nomination:
- Issues with the hook: Neither the article nor the source state that a transgender, transexual, or cross-dressing individual is portrayed in the music video (please note that some individuals find the word "transvestite" offensive and prefer the term "cross-dressing"; see this source).
- Copyvio and length issues: The "Live performance" and "Music video" sections were almost a word-for-word replica of the sources cited for those sections. I have deleted the offending portions of the article, but it is now below the 1500 character minimum.
- Other issues with references: The article cited several links to iTunes for background information about the song, but when I followed those links, I did not see the information that was asserted in the article.
Once these issues are addressed, I am happy to re-review the article. Until then, I am unable to pass this nomination. Best, -- Notecardforfree (talk) 01:57, 29 October 2015 (UTC)
- Follow-up comment: I just clicked the Wikilink to Gigi Gorgeous, which clarifies that she self-identifies as a trans-woman. However, the Billboard article you cite does not state that Gigi Gorgeous is in the video. If you can find a reliable source that states Gigi Gorgeous is featured in the video (and once the other issues are addressed), then I think we can say, in the hook, that the video features a transgender individual. -- Notecardforfree (talk) 02:11, 29 October 2015 (UTC)
- Wow, Notecardforfree, thanks for doing such an involved review already! As far as the hook fact, I note that this source cited in the Gigi Gorgeous article does confirm that Gorgeous will be in the video. (Her article also cites the YouTube copy of the teaser trailer for the "Another Lonely Night", in which she appears, but I believe that would count as a primary source.) If neither Launchballer nor Tobyjamesaus wants to add that reference to the "Another Lonely Night" article, I'd be happy to. If necessary I'll address the other issues with the nomination (properly paraphrasing the now-removed copyvio and getting the article length back up to where it needs to be) as well. —GrammarFascist contribstalk 17:36, 29 October 2015 (UTC)
- GrammarFascist, if it is obvious from watching the music video that Gigi Gorgeous is featured in the video, then I think we can cite to the video itself. WP:PRIMARY says:
"A primary source may only be used on Wikipedia to make straightforward, descriptive statements of facts that can be verified by any educated person with access to the primary source but without further, specialized knowledge."
Of course, if you have other sources that also substantiate her appearance in the video, those could work too. If you have time to work on this article, then you are welcome to ping me again once the changes are made and I'll have another look. Thanks for your help! Best, -- Notecardforfree (talk) 18:26, 29 October 2015 (UTC)- The little sod! The offending portions which you removed were added in this and this edit, both of whom Tobyjamesaus were responsible for. I will get my teeth into rewording the sections later on.--Launchballer 20:11, 29 October 2015 (UTC)
- @Launchballer and Notecardforfree: I added the information that Gigi Gorgeous appears in the video to the "Another Lonely Night" article, along with two sources: the DigitalSpy article also cited in the Gigi Gorgeous article, and the video for the song itself on YouTube. (The GG article cites the teaser trailer for the video on YT, which is a good choice for that article as the teaser includes a voiceover from her, but I chose the actual video to cite in the ALN article since it would be conceivable for someone to appear in a trailer but not the final version of the video itself.) I decided to include the primary source video along with the article, as Notecardforfree suggested, even though I needed help from my spouse to verify that it is indeed Gigi Gorgeous in the video, because I have prosopagnosia and honestly couldn't tell to a good enough degree of certainty. Launchballer, I've cleaned up after the copyvio somewhat, but if more needs to be done I think I'll leave it to you, since you're more familiar with the article's subject matter than I am. —GrammarFascist contribstalk 02:43, 30 October 2015 (UTC)
- Thank you. This was why I said later on, by the way. The background section was lifted from the credits information on The Original High which had been expressed in non-prose, I'm assuming it was out of laziness that they didn't know how to cite the album. I'll do that now.--Launchballer 11:05, 30 October 2015 (UTC)
Now that the copyvio and referencing issues have been resolved, ALT3 is good to go. The article was 5x expanded the week before it was nominated, the article is over the 1500 character minimum, and it now falls within policy. ALT3 is under 200 characters, it is interesting, and it is substantiated by an inline citation to a reliable source. QPQ is satisfied and there are no images here. Many thanks to GrammarFascist and Launchballer for their help improving this article. Best, -- Notecardforfree (talk) 16:23, 30 October 2015 (UTC)
- Thank you. This was why I said later on, by the way. The background section was lifted from the credits information on The Original High which had been expressed in non-prose, I'm assuming it was out of laziness that they didn't know how to cite the album. I'll do that now.--Launchballer 11:05, 30 October 2015 (UTC)
- @Launchballer and Notecardforfree: I added the information that Gigi Gorgeous appears in the video to the "Another Lonely Night" article, along with two sources: the DigitalSpy article also cited in the Gigi Gorgeous article, and the video for the song itself on YouTube. (The GG article cites the teaser trailer for the video on YT, which is a good choice for that article as the teaser includes a voiceover from her, but I chose the actual video to cite in the ALN article since it would be conceivable for someone to appear in a trailer but not the final version of the video itself.) I decided to include the primary source video along with the article, as Notecardforfree suggested, even though I needed help from my spouse to verify that it is indeed Gigi Gorgeous in the video, because I have prosopagnosia and honestly couldn't tell to a good enough degree of certainty. Launchballer, I've cleaned up after the copyvio somewhat, but if more needs to be done I think I'll leave it to you, since you're more familiar with the article's subject matter than I am. —GrammarFascist contribstalk 02:43, 30 October 2015 (UTC)
- The little sod! The offending portions which you removed were added in this and this edit, both of whom Tobyjamesaus were responsible for. I will get my teeth into rewording the sections later on.--Launchballer 20:11, 29 October 2015 (UTC)
- GrammarFascist, if it is obvious from watching the music video that Gigi Gorgeous is featured in the video, then I think we can cite to the video itself. WP:PRIMARY says:
- Wow, Notecardforfree, thanks for doing such an involved review already! As far as the hook fact, I note that this source cited in the Gigi Gorgeous article does confirm that Gorgeous will be in the video. (Her article also cites the YouTube copy of the teaser trailer for the "Another Lonely Night", in which she appears, but I believe that would count as a primary source.) If neither Launchballer nor Tobyjamesaus wants to add that reference to the "Another Lonely Night" article, I'd be happy to. If necessary I'll address the other issues with the nomination (properly paraphrasing the now-removed copyvio and getting the article length back up to where it needs to be) as well. —GrammarFascist contribstalk 17:36, 29 October 2015 (UTC)
