Talk:Zograf Monastery

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A fact from Zograf Monastery appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 27 January 2006. The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that the Zograf Monastery on the Holy Mountain was burnt down by a Catalan pirate raid in 1275?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2006/January.

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On 16 March 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved to Zografou Monastery. The result of the discussion was not moved.

Rename

this should be at Zographou monastery. InfernoXV 16:33, 25 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

And why? It is of much greater importance to Bulgaria than it is to Greece, and using a non-Greek name is not a precedent (see Hilandar). Todor →Bozhinov 17:35, 25 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

My original thought was for consistency in transcription from the Greek, but I hadn't noticed the case of Hilandar. You're right there, I withdraw my proposal. InfernoXV 18:25, 25 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

In terms of consistency to the canonical law and the political status of the Mount Athos I proposed the change from Bulgarian Orthodox monastery to Eastern Orthodox Monastery. I did this because all the monasteries on Athos are subjected to the juristiction of the Ecumenical Patriarchate in Constantinople and not of the Serbian, Bulgarian or Russian Patriarchates or the Orthodox Church of Greece. Thus the monasteries should all be characterised as Eastern Orthodox Monasteries first of all and then this characterization should be followed by the special connection with any of the orthodox churches. I believe that the history of every monastery should be respected and I acknowledge that the monasteries have close ties historically and traditionally with different churches of the Eastern Orthodox doctrine. Btw every monk on Mount Athos receives the Greek nationality upon entering a monastic brotherhood (whether he loses or retains his first nationality is a matter of the country of origin), that is just a typical matter, it does not mean that all monks on Athos are Greek Orthodox.

As for the title of the article of Zographou monastery and others (such as Hilandar) I think that the proper way is to use the Greek name because, irrelevant to any past circumstances, nowadays the monasteries are members of a state , the monastic Community of Mount Athos, and subjects of Greek and international law. the status of Mount Athos is described in an article of the Greek Constitution and the monasteries are part of greek sovereign space.HolyDio 13:13, 18 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

After thinking about it a bit, I'm OK with your version, and I have reverted myself. But I can't accept renaming the article because it is much more popular under the current name. For Greece, it is just a monastery on Mount Athos, for Bulgaria, it is the Bulgarian monastery on Mount Athos. English ghits: 9,860 vs 644. Todor →Bozhinov 17:35, 18 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No problem with the title of the article. It was only a typical matter for me ("proving" that is just a monastery in Athos to me, but "the" Bulgarian monastery to you), and what is important is that either linknames of the monastery, Zograf or Zographou are leading to the same article in wikipedia. Keep up the good work on providing information about Bulgaria on wikipedia.HolyDio 10:25, 21 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

1275 attack

The article stated that the attack of 1275 was by Catalan pirates; but in fact it was by Crusaders under the direction of the Byzantine emperor. I've corrected the article to reflect this, and added an external link that goes into more detail. MishaPan 17:52, 23 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"It was traditionally founded in the late 9th or early 10th century by three Macedonians???? from Ohrid and is regarded as the historical Bulgarian monastery on Mount Athos, and it is traditionally inhabited by Bulgarian Orthodox monks."

That sounds strange and you will have problems proving the info is reliable.AS THE MYTH SAYS ...The founders were three bulgarian monks from Ochrid-Moses, Aaron, and John.(^[1] see http://zograph.hit.bg/bulgarian.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.99.153.130 (talk) 01:10, 9 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This article doesn't reference the 'three Bulgarian monks from Ohrid' part, therefore it is misleading, therefore it is edited.

References

^ Според легендата той бил основан в края на IX или в началото на Х в. от трима братя с български произход: Мойсей, Аарон и Иван Селима от град Охрид.

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External links modified

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Requested move 16 March 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (non-admin closure) ■ ∃ Madeline ⇔ ∃ Part of me ; 16:01, 31 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Zograf Monastery → Zografou Monastery – The name of the monastery in Greek is Ιερά Μονή Ζωγράφου, not Ιερά Μονή Ζωγράφ. Having been to Mount Athos, I can testify that the monks of the entire peninsula commonly refer to the monastery by simply saying Ζωγράφου, which transliterates to Zographou, not Zograf. I understand that the name comes from Saint George the Zograf, but it is common grammar in Greek to add ου to the end of Ζωγράφ to denote ownership (or in this case, foundership). Additionally, all English speakers I have encountered have called the monastery Zographou and not Zograf. My second argument is that this name change should be made to be consistent with other articles in the Mount Athos category. Examples that use the "ου" are:

A strong example is Agiou Pavlou Monastery since, like Zographou, it is named after a particular person (Paul of Xeropotamou). Agiou Pavlou is not called Agios Pavlos, so why should Zografou be Zograf? Swehlam (talk) 05:51, 16 March 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. ASUKITE 14:29, 24 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Zograf is the word as it is used in Bulgarian, hence the Monastery is inhabited by Bulgarian monks since the Middle ages, when they found it. Jingiby (talk) 06:00, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

More relevant are the names of the Russian St. Panteleimon Monastery and the Serbian monastery of Hilandar. Best, Apcbg (talk) 06:26, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Bogoroditsa Skete is another example. Jingiby (talk) 06:39, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose per Jingiby. 〜Festucalex • talk • contribs 09:21, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Note: WikiProject Eastern Orthodoxy has been notified of this discussion. ASUKITE 14:29, 24 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Note: WikiProject Greece has been notified of this discussion. ASUKITE 14:29, 24 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Note: WikiProject Bulgaria has been notified of this discussion. ASUKITE 14:29, 24 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

[1] Според легендата той бил основан в края на IX или в началото на Х в. от трима братя с български произход: Мойсей, Аарон и Иван Селима от град Охрид.

[1]