Talk:Zipporah

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Zipporah article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

Article policies

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Biography: Royalty and Nobility

	Biography portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography
	This article is supported by WikiProject Royalty and Nobility (assessed as Mid-importance).

Judaism Mid‑importance

	Judaism portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Judaism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Judaism-related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.JudaismWikipedia:WikiProject JudaismTemplate:WikiProject JudaismJudaism
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Christianity Low‑importance

	Christianity portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Christianity, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Christianity on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.ChristianityWikipedia:WikiProject ChristianityTemplate:WikiProject ChristianityChristianity
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Islam Low‑importance

	Islam portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Islam, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Islam-related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.IslamWikipedia:WikiProject IslamTemplate:WikiProject IslamIslam-related
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Jewish Women Low‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Jewish Women, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Jewish Women on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Jewish WomenWikipedia:WikiProject Jewish WomenTemplate:WikiProject Jewish WomenJewish Women
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Bible Mid‑importance

	Bible portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Bible, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the Bible on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.BibleWikipedia:WikiProject BibleTemplate:WikiProject BibleBible
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Women's History Low‑importance

	History portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Women's History, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Women's history and related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Women's HistoryWikipedia:WikiProject Women's HistoryTemplate:WikiProject Women's HistoryWomen's History
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Ancient Near East Low‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Ancient Near East, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of ancient Near East–related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Ancient Near EastWikipedia:WikiProject Ancient Near EastTemplate:WikiProject Ancient Near EastAncient Near East
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Mythology Low‑importance

	Mythology portal This article is supported by WikiProject Mythology. This project provides a central approach to Mythology-related subjects on Wikipedia. Please participate by editing the article, and help us assess and improve articles to good and 1.0 standards, or visit the WikiProject page for more details.MythologyWikipedia:WikiProject MythologyTemplate:WikiProject MythologyMythology
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Folklore Low‑importance

	This article falls within the scope of WikiProject Folklore, a WikiProject dedicated to improving Wikipedia's coverage of the topics of folklore and folklore studies. If you would like to participate, you may edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project's page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to discussion.FolkloreWikipedia:WikiProject FolkloreTemplate:WikiProject FolkloreFolklore
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Women in Religion Low‑importance

	This article is within the scope of the Women in Religion WikiProject, a collaborative effort to improve Wikipedia's coverage of Women in religion. If you would like to participate, you can visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks.Women in ReligionWikipedia:WikiProject Women in ReligionTemplate:WikiProject Women in ReligionWomen in Religion
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Religion Low‑importance

	Religion portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Religion, a project to improve Wikipedia's articles on Religion-related subjects. Please participate by editing the article, and help us assess and improve articles to good and 1.0 standards, or visit the wikiproject page for more details.ReligionWikipedia:WikiProject ReligionTemplate:WikiProject ReligionReligion
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Kushite

It is clear in the Bible that Tzipporah is the Kushite wife. Took anti-black bias out.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.43.56.12 (talk • contribs) 04:15, 21 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

It isn't debated because of any percieved anti-black bias. It is debated simply because it clearly says that Zipporah is a Midianite. Midianites are not Cushites (for one thing they are substantially whiter). So either the Cushite is a different person, or Cushite is metaphorical.— Preceding unsigned comment added by FDuffy (talk • contribs) 18:46, 30 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

It's pretty clear that Zipporah and the Cushite Wife aren't identical. So it seems Moses did at least took one other wife. Miriam/Aaron did not object to Zipporah it seems. God turns against Miriam/Aaron not because they had no point, but because they tried to undermine Moses. Num 12:8 makes that quite clear. In newer times people have started to make a 'racism'-debate from this. As if God 'Condemned Miriam's Racism'. He does not in fact there are several instructions in the Bible that admonishes the Israelites not to mingle with people whose genealogies were a little suspect. Previous to World War Two this was also be understood by most Christians: Races and Nations are part of the Creation Order... And the Gospel needed to be preached to 'all Nations' (ethnos) and to the 'whole of creation'. This view changed drastically after World War Two. Especially after the 1960s when Christianity was interpreted as some kind of universalist, tolerant, multicultural, diverse religion... Which it clearly isn't. 105.8.4.163 (talk) 10:53, 6 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Midieval Jewish scholarship debated whether she was the cushite woman. Rashi (R. Shlomo ben Yitzhaki) claimed she was - but his style of reading the Bible was of recycling characters - if they only appear once then they are the same as other characters. This is based on the midrash. However, it can be debated that this is supposed to be understood metaphorically. Many other Jewish scholars - particularily Ibn Ezra and the Ramban (Nachmanides) both say they are different women. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.197.238.62 (talk) 03:07, 29 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Why then was her doll from the Pixar movie "The Prince of Egypt" a dark skinned Black woman —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.82.76.179 (talk) 00:12, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Augustine called her both Ethiopian and Midianite —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.82.76.179 (talk) 00:18, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Zipporah is the cushite wife

Until some credible evidence is shown as to why it should be considered "unclear", im keeping that speculative comment out. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.254.174.241 (talk • contribs) 18:47, 9 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Modern scholars doubt it. That's why it's back, as part of NPOV. Jayjg ^(talk) 19:11, 10 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Why is your uncited statement any better than his? Which modern scholars are we talking about? —Chris Capoccia ^T⁄_C 20:00, August 10, 2005 (UTC)

It is also unclear how deep is the scepticism of the scholars you are referring to. Are they merely doubting Zipporah's nationality/race? Are they doubting her existence? Are they doubting Jethro's existence? Are they doubting the entire record of the book of Exodus? —Chris Capoccia ^T⁄_C 14:38, August 11, 2005 (UTC)

Cited; see page. Jayjg ^(talk) 17:36, 11 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

You cite Ex18:2 to support that Moses sent Zipporah away, but scholars use that to support that Jethro, Zipporah, and her sons came to Moses

The evidence is forcing a re-write of some King James Versions of the Bible https://www.opride.com/2017/08/18/editing-bible-cush-ethiopia-back-cush/. Kzlion (talk) 22:10, 29 December 2017 (UTC) http://qbible.com/hebrew-old-testament/exodus/18.html[reply]

Please read Gen37: 27-28.

Interesting arguments - I had assumed that Moses took more than one wife (in the manner of many of the OT patriarchs) and that his siblings' objections were essentially what we would now call "racist". Could it be that he married Zipporah shortly after joining Jethro's household and then when he returned to Egypt some 40 years later he then found this second, unnamed, woman amongst the dark-skinned people who live there? Douglasson (talk) 16:12, 15 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This page is not a forum for this kind of general discussion. See WP:NOTFORUM. Jytdog (talk) 16:14, 15 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Article protected

I have fully protected the article for a short amount time due to edit warring. If possible, please try and discuss here. Elockid ^(Talk) 20:36, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

bad source

You should not be using Shahak as a reference. You have plenty of more reliable choices and using him simply shows that you stopped when you found somebody who agreed with you. 4.249.63.231 (talk) 15:33, 14 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

That section had 2 cites, I removed Shahak, I agree with you.Dougweller (talk) 16:30, 14 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

John T Willis

Article mentions his book without naming it. It's [1]. Peter Lang publishers are minor but respectable. Dougweller (talk) 16:30, 14 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Convert to Judaism?

Does anyone have a credible source for Zipporah's conversion to Judaism? I can only find sources saying it is assumed she did. No apparent reference in the Old Testament. Might consider removing the list tag. Gowser (talk) 18:59, 2 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Why would Zipporah "convert" to Judaism? She introduced Moses and the Hebrews to the Name of the One True God. If anything, the question should be, did the Hebrews diligently worship her God? Zipporah, and her son Gershon(m), were the "diligent observers", the "ha-noẓerim" that has been misread as "ha-yoẓerim" ("the potters"; I Chron. iv. 23), causing people to think there were "Kenites" or "Cinites" traveling with the Hebrews. The Gershonites were Levites, priests, which bothered Mariam and Aaron, which led to the episode in Num:12 (so, yes, Zipporah, the same woman he met when he originally sojourned to the Sinai was traveling with Moses during the Exodus out of the Sinai). When the Hebrews departed from the Sinai the clans of Gershon and Merari carried the Dwelling (Num. 10: 17-18). Of course, the "Aaronist" (today, and back then) wanted to assert that only Aaron and his clan could be priests. But that assertion was shut down. The Gershonites were spread among the other tribes (as were all Levite priests), but they always, including Eliasaph and Caleb remained "diligent observers" of the True God. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kzlion (talk • contribs) 17:55, 31 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, I have to ask

Why aren´t africans supposed to wear blue? [2] Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 14:25, 8 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

who knows, happily it was reverted. Jytdog (talk) 22:41, 29 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Cushites and Arabians

The article connects Cush to Arabians. This is totally unsupported and misleading as Arabs were considered descendants of Sem. Moreover, there is no Scriptural support that Midianites were traced to Cush. Kzlion (talk) 22:17, 29 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Wiki article says Midians worshipped Baal, not YHWH, no Scriptural evidence otherwise. Midians were "cousins" of Hebrews, no evidence of YHWH in either before introduction to Cush woman. Midians sold Joseph into slavery, no evidence of fondness for Hebrews. Hebrews killed the Midian kings. If the Midians kings worshipped YHWH, probably would not have killed. On the Levant, the conqueror would destroy the old god and kill the king. Hypothesis is:References to Midian are a misreading after the return from captivity in Babylon. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kzlion (talk • contribs) 22:37, 29 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know what you are talking about when you say "The article connects Cush to Arabians". As for your second comment, Wikipedia is based on what reliable sources say. Please review WP:TPG and use this page only to discuss making specific changes to the article. Jytdog (talk) 22:43, 29 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Joseph's brothers were Midians? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 23:20, 29 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I gave you a direct Scriptural reference, and you respond with this? please read https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Wikipedia:Please_do_not_bite_the_newcomers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kzlion (talk • contribs) 18:18, 30 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Leadimage

I have no real doubt that the woman in blue is Zipporah, but since this is WP, it would be nice if we could source it to something. Moses Leaving for Egypt didn´t help, but it was interesting that she and Moses appears three times in that painting. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 15:28, 10 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

those crazy medieval/renaissance painters, making comics with no frames. :) i love that actually. also the slidey tables.Jytdog (talk) 21:07, 10 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

That was my reflection too, this is like a comicstrip. My other reflection was "Hm, should we use the far-right Zipporah instead, that could be fun? And it relates to the inn-story." And thanks for adding the ref. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 21:25, 10 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Leadimage, again

@Howardcorn33, hi. I like that painting and won't revert, actually I started the WP-article on it. However, it can be argued that Zipporah is more commonly depicted in art as white, and therefore such a depiction is a better WP:LEADIMAGE. We'll see what happens. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:41, 30 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

First of all, I hope we can agree the previous image in the infobox was not a good depiction. It was not close up and it isn’t clear who Zipporah is without a caption. Ideally we should have a clear view of the face without ambiguity of who the subject is. Now, the reason I chose the Jordaens portrait is because it is the only portrait of Zipporah which has its own Wikipedia article. For this reason, I considered it notable enough to be the lead image. As for the claim that she is commonly depicted as white, I believe we would need to provide citations for such a claim. Taking a quick glance at Google images, it appears that depictions of Zipporah with darker skin are more common than depictions of her with white skin. Perhaps it is true that Zipporah was once commonly depicted as white in art, but we must choose the depiction which is more recognizable to readers. ―Howard • 🌽³³ 10:24, 30 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In this context, roughly "biblical characters", I think the previous is good enough, and it has some nice context, event and kids. It's true that Moses Leaving for Egypt isn't a portrait. And, having an article is not necessarily "better". It's not like what the face looks like actually matters in these cases. And for all we know, Jordaens could have been thinking of Tharbis, not that it matters here. But like I said, I'm not going to revert, consensus will be what it will be. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:45, 30 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I was initially going to defend my position further, but after reading this^[1] article, I don't feel particularly certain that the Jordaens portrait even depicts Zipporah. The portrait is certainly clear and straightforward but I don't know if it is correct to place a questionable portrait into the infobox itself. The reason I initially chose the Jordaens portait is because I believed it was a portrait which would be recognizable to the reader, so a reader could go "Oh, I recognize that face!" and quickly grasp who the article was covering. But in this case, we must make a decision on whether the uncertainty of the portrait's subject warrants its removal from the infobox. Perhaps we could use this painting by Botticelli instead.

^ McGrath, Elizabeth (2007). "Jacob Jordaens and Moses's Ethiopian Wife". Journal of the Warburg and Courtauld Institutes. 70: 247–285. ISSN 0075-4390.

―Howard • 🌽³³ 16:36, 30 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Looking again, one aspect is also that Jordaens is sending a very Christian signal, but that is probably the case with the other one too, if not quite as in-your-face. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:01, 30 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Another alt is the Zipporah on the right side of the Moses Leaving for Egypt painting. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:56, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Zipporah is a derived name from Ahmose Sapair

Moses + Zipporah = Ahmose Sapair Manetho has a story about Osarsiph, who he identifies as Moses; Osarsiph has been previously identified as Ahmose Sapair, with Osarsiph also being linked to Serapis.

Ahmose Sapair is too early to be Moses, inspite of this identification, but we can see that the word Sapair appears in the biblical version, as his wife Zipporah. 170.55.96.50 (talk) 13:03, 12 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Per top of page: "This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Zipporah article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject." Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:30, 12 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

[1] McGrath, Elizabeth (2007). "Jacob Jordaens and Moses's Ethiopian Wife". Journal of the Warburg and Courtauld Institutes. 70: 247–285. ISSN 0075-4390.

[1]