Talk:Zhang Yiming

Request for two additions

Hi, I work for ByteDance and would like to suggest two additions to this article.

• "ByteDance" section, to be added between the first two paragraphs:

Zhang envisioned ByteDance as a global company from its founding, a goal that was reinforced following Zhang's 2014 visit to California, during which he toured Facebook and Tesla headquarters and met with Yahoo! co-founder Jerry Yang.

• New section with the heading "Personality and leadership style":

Kai-Fu Lee described Zhang as "soft-spoken yet charismatic, logical yet passionate, young yet wise." This approach was reflected in ByteDance's 2017 acquisition of Musical.ly, whose popularity among American teens had been growing.

• To be added either as a separate "Leadership style" section or simply at the end of the "ByteDance" section:

Contrary to the convention in the Chinese business world, Zhang instructs his employees not to call him "boss" or "CEO" and encourages them to refer to him by his given name, Yiming.

Zhang conducts town hall meetings every two months to discuss his goals for the company.

References

Thank you, JatBD (talk) 02:48, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

Hi @JatBD: thanks for using the Request Edit template. While the wording has improved, I am still going to decline this request. Here are my thoughts on the two proposed additions:

First bullet point: What does "positioning" mean? How does one "position" a company? This sounds like company jargon and needs to be a lot more specific. What specifically did Zhang do that caused ByteDance to have a global focus? Is this verified in the source? I also don't think this sentence adds anything to the article; it already talks about Musical.ly's acquisition, wanting a company to expand globally is not notable, and Musical.ly's popularity doesn't need to be noted unless Zhang has mentioned it as a reason for the purchase.

Second bullet point: This information is not notable. These are not new or unique techniques specific to Yiming.

Please post below if you have any questions or concerns. Z1720 (talk) 03:46, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

Hi Z1720, thanks for responding. Let me address some of your points:

• I used the word "positioned" because Blablubbs favored that language above. It means that Zhang took steps to make ByteDance a global company, by acquiring Musical.ly among other examples. (Several other examples of the global focus are cited in the Reuters article, e.g., the development of a social media app for the Indian local market, the global roll-out of the workplace productivity app Lark, etc.) It says this explicitly in the WSJ source, which is all about Zhang's efforts to build a global company: "ByteDance launched TikTok in 2017, then acquired a Shanghai-based rival, Musical.ly, that was gaining traction among American teens, and folded it into TikTok. Mr. Zhang told a forum at Beijing’s Tsinghua University in March 2018 that he expected TikTok to have more users outside of China than inside it within three years."
• You say that wanting a company to expand globally is not notable. That may be true for most CEOs, but in Zhang's case it is absolutely unique and noteworthy. You can see this from the sources that I've cited here, two of which are all about how Zhang set himself apart from his peers by expanding ByteDance globally. The Reuters article (headline: "Zhang Yiming, founder of TikTok owner ByteDance, gears up for the global stage") says in its opening lines that Zhang "has for years aspired to make ByteDance the first Chinese firm to rival U.S. internet giants on the global stage." The subheadline of the WSJ article begins: "Zhang Yiming, who always wanted to build a global tech company..." And there are many other RS dedicated to the theme of Zhang's desire to build ByteDance into a global company (see New York Times, South China Morning Post).
• The point of noting Musical.ly's popularity among American teens is the same as the WSJ article's point of noting it: it explains how the acquisition served as a way for Zhang to make inroads into the American market.
• The line about how ByteDance employees are instructed to call their CEO "Yiming" is certainly unique. Just look at the Reuters article, which says explicitly that this is one way that Zhang "eschews Chinese convention." The Reuters article mentions this, as well as the bi-monthly town hall meetings, to make the broader point that Zhang "has consciously borrowed strategies from U.S. internet giants" like Google.

I understand your initial reaction to decline this request, but I hope you can take a closer look at the sources and reconsider, or at least suggest changes that would satisfy your concerns. Thanks, JatBD (talk) 15:06, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

Hi @JatBD: I will respond to your request in the sections below.

I see that @Blablubbs: did recommend using that phrasing, but I still disagree with it being added by itself. I think the sentence is just too general and "positioning" is a jargon term. As you pointed out, the Reuters article describes some of these actions (development of an app for India, development of Lark, etc.) That can be great information to include in the article. For example, instead of saying "Zhang positioned the company for global expansion" you can say "Zhang expressed to an investor in 2013 that he planned to expand Jinri Toutiao's algorithm to different languages." The latter sentence uses an action (Zhang talking to an investor) to show Zhang's intent (expanding beyond the Chinese market). A word of caution though: I only accept info in a person's biography if they had direct involvement in its implementation. For example, if Zhang himself proposed the Lark app or if Zhang insisted that ByteDance buy Musical.ly. Just because a company does something while Zhang is the CEO doesn't mean it should be in the CEO's bio. Also, the language used to describe these actions should be of a disinterested, neutral observer. If you post the language you want to include below an editor will help fix the language and remove unnecessary detail.

For wanting a company to expand globally is not notable: Wanting global expansion is notable if almost all Chinese CEOs are uninterested in expanding their companies globally (and this is verified by a reliable source.) Reading the Reuters article, I don't think that is verified. Just to be clear: wanting expansion is different from achieving expansion. Verifying that Zhang expanded the company globally does not mean the notability of Zhang wanting expansion has been shown. As mentioned in the preceding paragraph, showing us with Zhang's actions is better than using generalities.

For the Musical.ly acquisition: ByteDance the company made inroads into the American market, not Zhang. If Zhang quits ByteDance tomorrow, the company will still operate internationally but Zhang will not be conducting business in other countries. That is why I think that information is better placed in the company's article, not Zhang's.

For the "Leadership style" proposal, I am taking a second look at it and I agree that the Reuters article deems this information as notable. However, Reuters gives this information in the context of Zhang embracing Western practices. I would reword this section to start something like, "In developing the company Zhang modelled his leadership strategy from US tech companies such as Alphabet Inc. This includes bi-monthly town hall meetings and discouraging employees from referring to him as his job title." I also don't think it deserves its own section because there's not enough info here to justify it (I expect each section to have at least a paragraph of information, and a paragraph to have 4-6 sentences) Propose an alternate wording below and where you think it should be included.

There is lots of information in these sources that can be added to this article, as shown in the justifications above to include information. Instead of referring to that information in replies, I suggest you propose expanded sections to add to the article that incorporates that information. Most readers will not go to the talk page to read why something is important enough to add to the article. Instead, the article should prove something is notable in the prose. Avoid generalisations and be specific on what Zhang has done, and propose multiple sentences of information on the same topic. We can always decline to add information or edit out the parts that are too puffery or promotional, but if only one sentence is proposed it is difficult to edit that into usable prose. Please post below if you have any questions or concerns, or if you want to propose new information. Z1720 (talk) 21:07, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

@Z1720: This was very helpful, especially your points about actions vs. generalities and about incorporating the importance of the information into the prose. In light of your comments, I've rewritten the proposed additions. I've left out the Musical.ly piece and instead included multiple examples of concrete actions that Zhang took to expand ByteDance globally. I've also included a new citation from a different Reuters article that explicitly contrasts Zhang with his CEO counterparts, who "have retrenched from overseas and opted to focus on domestic markets." For the "Leadership style" sentences, I've adopted the language you suggested, with a few minor changes.

• To be added to the "ByteDance" section, between the first two paragraphs:

Zhang has acted to expand ByteDance globally, leading some to contrast him with other Chinese CEOs, who have focused more on the domestic growth of their respective companies. In 2013, Zhang told an investor that he planned to expand Jinri Toutiao's recommendation algorithms to different languages. Zhang also insisted that the roll-out of ByteDance's workplace productivity app Lark be targeted at the American, European and Japanese markets, rather than limiting the focus to the China as was originally proposed.

• To be added to the end of the "ByteDance" section:

In developing ByteDance, Zhang modeled his leadership strategy on US tech companies such as Google. This includes conducting bi-monthly town hall meetings and discouraging employees from referring to him as "boss" or "CEO," as is the Chinese convention.

References

Thanks again, JatBD (talk) 14:44, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

Hi @JatBD: here are some thoughts:

Bullet point 1: I took out the first paragraph/sentence from the ByteDance section because the citation needed was from Aug 2020, and BLPs should have references. I struggled with where to put this proposed section, but decided to put it between 2014 and 2015 after some copyediting. I don't think the 2013 investor info is notable anymore, but the third sentence has been added with some copyediting, too.

Bullet point 2: I added the information after the information in bullet point 1. I also did some copyediting.

Please post below if there are any comments or questions about the additions. Z1720 (talk) 17:44, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

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