Talk:Yuz Asaf

Al-Ṭabari

In “The Knowledge of Life” (reference in the article), Sinasi Gündüz writes on page 31:

          “Abu Ja`far Muhammad ‘ibn Jarir al Ṭabari (224-310/838-922) who is one of the earliest 
sources of commentary on the Qur’an and the history of Islam, in his commentary on the Qur’an, 
examines the etymology of Ṣabi’un  and points out that it is the plural of ṣabi which means 
someone who takes on a  new religion other than his own, like a Muslim apostate from his religion.  
On the other hand in his history, he derives ṣabi’un from a personal name: he claims Ṣabi is another 
name of Lamech, the father of the prophet Noah, and the Sabians took their name from Lamech.

          “Al-Ṭabari also uses the name “Sabians” for idolaters in general.  He states, for instance,
 that Budasab (Buddha) in his early period called the people to the religion of the Sabians* and that 
Bishtasb and his father Luahrasb, the ruler of the Persians after Kaykhusraw, embraced the religion of 
the Sabians until Sami and Zoroaster came to Bishtasb with their tenets.**”

          •	al-Tabari Tarikh al-Rusal wa al-Muluk ed. M. J. d. Goeje, Leiden (1964) v. I p.176 
          **    Ibid v 2 p 683

The following paragraph (which I will insert in a week), shows how al Mas'udi also uses "sabians" to refer to pagans in general. (I will also insure that the appropriate macrons and dots are in the above quotes.)

So Gündüz makes no claims regarding Yuz the Gatherer on page 31

BobGriffin-Nukraya (talk) 07:12, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

"Hebrew for Jesus" etc

With regard to the recent edits, this is essentially a disambiguation page, and so should not contain detailed content arguing a point. In any case neither of your sources are what we would call 'reliable'. See WP:RS for details. The etymology of Yuz Asaf is already discussed in the article, and is linked to the relevant pages. Finally, an anecdote about what an anonymous elderly woman said is not really encyclopedic. We should be able to discuss the beliefs of various Muslim sects using academic sources without resorting to story-telling. Paul B (talk) 13:46, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

For the name of Jesus in Hebrew, see Yeshua (name). If Yuz Asaf does mean Jesus, then it must be a name from a language other than Hebrew. Per Ardua (talk) 14:09, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Is the name Yuz Asaf correct?

I have been to Srinagar. In front of the Roza Bal (روضہ بل) shrine, there is a sign reading "Shrine of Hazrat Youza Asif and Syed Naseer ud-Din". Below, this sentence is repeated in (probably) Urdu, and the name is spelled یوﺿﺍ ﺂﺼِﻓ which I take to mean yūḍā āṣif in standard transliteration.

Since this is about a written source, I think my remark cannot be qualified as "original research". Can anybody offer an available source that calls that person Yuz Asaf? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.95.233.141 (talk) 11:09, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

This stands as easily verifiable fact, by video for instance, at 4:32 and 5:18 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXbAQfrsuhc DGuerra (talk) 02:06, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

Removing self-published fiction

I have removed a reference to a self-published fiction book in the YUz Asaf article, "The Roza Bal Line" by Shawn Haigins. I have been hounded relentlessly around Wikipedia by unscrupulous people who would allow self-published fiction but not research and factual references. Suzanne Olsson

Yuz Asaf Name Researched in Afghanistan

[[Mr. Dougweller- you have deleted everything I just contributed to Roza Bal and Yuz Asaf - claiming "COI" for justification...Looking over the rules and pointers about COI, I do not agree with your decision. Here are some of the reasons why: 1.) You allow the Tomb of Jesus website to remain a contributor and have their links on numerous pages here, yet not one of the creators has ever been to India, or the the tomb. They have never researched it, made a film, nor written a book. (I have, and I was the first to put into print the correct definition for 'Yuz Asaf' as 'son of Joseph'). They have no special skills or knowledge about the tomb,the founder was a bus driver in Chicago, who passed it on to businessman in Toronto, who passed it on to a bank teller in London..who keeps the website updated as best he can. Their interests are religious, their links support their views, and you support this. I do not object to this. I do object to this at the exclusion of all other kinds of contributions. I recently acquired the domain 'rozabal.com.' This is relevent to several topics including "Jesus in India', 'Roza Bal tomb', 'bloodline of Jesus', and Yuz Asaf. I have been trying to locate and update old dead links at Wiki, and update info as and where I can. I understand COI and have tried to avoid those pitfalls. The contributions I made are for benefit of researchers and not for self aggrandizement or spam...If it were self- promotion I would be all over Wiki inserting links everywhere, as so many others have done and continue to do, whom you always manage to ignore....You seem to take special interest in me. Why is that Doug? If you want to help, then please do tell me how to insert and update the links without "Offending" your ideas about COI. ]] SuzanneOlsson (talk)Suzanne OlssonSuzanneOlsson (talk)

Removing the redirect

The Roza Bal theory does not warrant the redirection of an uncreated article on one of two Muslim saints from the medieval-era to an article on Jesus in Ahmaddiya Islam. There needs to be two separate articles. I am removing the redirect. I hope that the sentiments of neither Muslims or Ahmaddiya Muslims are offended by the removal of this redirect.

But most locals believe the shrine is the final resting place of Muslim preachers and scholars Youza Asif and Syed Naseer-ud-Din, who lived in the area centuries ago. The increasing traffic has angered them, prompting security fears in a region that has seen its fair share of violence.

"Some Christians from the West claim it is the grave of Jesus and they had approached us with a request to exhume the remains for carbon dating and DNA testing. But we refused," Mohammad Amin Ringshawl, the shrine's caretaker, told Reuters.

"By claiming Rozabal is Jesus' tomb the foreigners are hurting Muslim sentiments, so to avoid any trouble we have locked the sanctum sanctorum."

Luther Blissetts (talk) 22:20, 11 April 2017 (UTC)

LutherBlissetts, fine initiative, perhaps the subject merits an article of it´s own. There was a related discussion in 2013[1], perhaps something in it can be of interest to you. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:59, 12 April 2017 (UTC)

Gråbergs Gråa Sång, Thank you, very helpful. I'm reading through that discussion now. Luther Blissetts (talk) 10:09, 12 April 2017 (UTC)

References

So

What sources could we use? In ictu oculi, any thoughts? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:49, 12 April 2017 (UTC)

Hi Gråbergs Gråa Sång, I'm reading through the French and German wikipedia entries and talk pages on this subject (of which there are many. Thank you for introducting In ictu oculi, who has been very active in fr.wikipedia on this very subject (although they might not thank us for raising this topic once more!). Luther Blissetts (talk) 04:58, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

Reading through the above, there should be a focus on the actual status quo (https://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=Youza_Asouph&redirect=no) which where the current entry for Yuz Asaf really ought to go. In all honesty I believe I placed this entry in the wrong place (should have been in Youza Asouph and not Yuz Asaf, as the latter is based on a recreation of this saint's name to fit the much disputed 19th century claim. In Youza Asouph we can add the Urdu as mentioned above:

the name is spelled یوﺿﺍ ﺂﺼِﻓ which I take to mean yūḍā āṣif in standard transliteration.

. Luther Blissetts (talk) 05:10, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

Yeah, I remember IIO tried to make me understand something about the many spellings [2]. I´m fairly ignorant on the subject (which can be seen in the Roza Bal talk archives), but it´s interesting and my interest was rekindled by certain recent posts on the FRINGE noticeboard, so I started putting my nose in it again. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 06:51, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

[3] This source is mostly about Roza Bal, but it has several of the subjects names in it (and the name of a certain author). Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 06:59, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

And, oh boy, name of the article. Should it be just Yuzasaf? It´s the first name in Roza Bal (hopefully for a reason), and the above source seems to favor it. What is most common in academic (english) literature? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:09, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

Probably not Yuzasaf - it really ought to be the name of the saint at the shrine, which means the Roza Bal article would need to reflect that also. I think you originally had the idea for a disambig page. Let's talk about that also. Luther Blissetts (talk) 07:45, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

Well, the articles BBC-source supports Youza Asouph, that supports your argument. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:06, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

Note that the section "Building" in Roza Bal has some info on the "residents". One solution could be to expand/rename that section and merge/redirect this article to it. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:57, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

I don't think that a merge is possible given that 3 individuals are associated with the tomb. In ictu oculi (talk) 08:28, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

Source of the Kashmir Jesus Legend

Please do not edit this out, it is important to have the source of the legend that Jesus is buried in the Kashmir tomb. I have restored the reference. Jeanmoin (talk) 12:46, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

Hi, Jeanmoin, Please do not add your edit for a third time. I had asked you after your first addition (and in my 1st revert summary) to discuss here on the talk page. You still have not discussed here on the talk page, and now you are now edit warring. It's no good writing on my talk page. There are other editors involved who need to be informed that a discussion is taking place. @Doug Weller:Luther Blissetts (talk) 13:07, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

• Are you going to begin discussing? Why edit out a source to a fringe-claim involving Yuz Azaf? Jeanmoin (talk) 13:25, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

Please discuss on Talk Page

Please discuss on Talk Page before removing edits. Thank you. 12:50, 16 April 2017 (UTC)Jeanmoin (talk) 12:50, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

And I´ve removed it again. This statement, at least for now, belongs at Roza Bal. Here it´s just a fact without any context. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:38, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

And there would be no interest, absolutely no interest, in Yuz Asaf without the fringe claim that he was Jesus Christ. Here lies the only notability to the person - because he is not the only sufi saint in existence with a shrine. Thus making a mockery of your edit. Jeanmoin (talk) 13:42, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

No interest? No interest from whom? Religious anthropologists? Local Sufis? New religious movements? Christians? Anyone who lives outside of Kashmir? Kindly stop your edit war across this topic. Luther Blissetts (talk) 13:52, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

Please cite references to Yuz Asaf outside the context of fringe claims. Please justify your above response and state why there are no more articles devoted to Sufi saints Jeanmoin (talk) 13:57, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

There are lots of articles on Sufi saints. Luther Blissetts (talk) 14:02, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

The list is given here [[4]] where the articles about them are substantial. The saints listed have notability. But the only thing notable about Yuz Asaf is the fringe claim that he was Jesus Christ. Jeanmoin (talk) 14:09, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

It´s possible that merging this article into Roza Bal is the best solution, the name has been redirected there in the past, and it might be possible to give the subjet it´s own section. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 14:17, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

It's possible, but we were having a leisurely, measured, non-rushed discussion about this above already. Luther Blissetts (talk) 14:50, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

Quite leisurely, yes. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 15:07, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

Yuz Asaf is not included on the list, and nothing seems to be known about him, otherwise this knowledge would have been used. The similarity of the name has been lifted to create fringe history. Why it was done when it was done, there is an explanation for that. But that would constitute Original Research, that is not allowed on Wikipedia Jeanmoin (talk) 14:22, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

You say the similarity of the name has been lifted to create fringe history (POV) but of course, you are the one who keeps adding that similarity to the page. He's not on the list, because no-one has added him. I will do that now. Luther Blissetts (talk) 14:50, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

Well, if it helps, I added him to the list. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 14:42, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

That's great. I've changed it to the Kasmiri spelling (also in BBC article). Luther Blissetts (talk) 14:59, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

I got curious about when this guy was supposed to have lived, and according to the Court case section at Roza Bal, + a little math, it seems he was already buried in ca 1500. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 15:05, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

Do you have the reference for that, Gråbergs Gråa Sång? Luther Blissetts (talk) 15:59, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

Not really. Roza Bal gives "Fida Hassnain, The Fifth Gospel, Dastgir Publications Srinagar, Kashmir, Printed by Leo Printers of Delhi, 1988 Pp. 222–223; confirmed by citation in Mark Bothe Die "Jesus-in-Indien-Legende" – Eine alternative Jesus-Erzählung? 2011 – Page 53.", but it´s nothing I have access to. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:20, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

Hmm. GRIN Publishing is a self-publishing house. The Mark Bothe reference is available to read on google books, aber wir koennen nicht dieses Buche nicht ueber Seite vierzehn lesen. I'm beginning to loathe self-publishing for its lack of verifiability. SO we have two references, one self-published referencing another self-published, and neither verifiable. Luther Blissetts (talk) 17:09, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

We can do something with this, taken from the Roza Bal page, and rewrite with Youza Asouph as the subject:

The shrine is first mentioned in the Waqi'at-i-Kashmir (Story of Kashmir, published 1747), also known as the Tarikh Azami (History by Azam) by the Khwaja Muhammad Azam Didamari, a local Srinagar Sufi writer. Muhammed Azam states that the tomb is of a foreign prophet and prince, Yuzasuf, or in modern local Kashimiri transcription Youza Asouph.

References

Medz

Hello!

As I understand it, www.alislam.org is a reasonable WP:PRIMARY source for Ahmadiyya beliefs, and can be used for that, with some caution. Reliably published secondary sources would be even better. However, www.tombofjesus.com or www.jesus-kashmir-tomb.com/ [5][6] are not sources that should be used on WP. Really not. Also, when your references becomes redlinks in the article's Reference section, something went wrong.

Pinging In ictu oculi and Doug Weller, in case they wish to comment. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 18:05, 6 April 2020 (UTC)

Hi, many thanks for clarifying. I will check the links. Medz (talk) 22:37, 6 April 2020 (UTC)

www.booksfact.com

https://www.booksfact.com/puranas/jesus-christ-in-bhavishya-purana-and-his-tomb-in-kashmir.htm - how does material like this get put into the article as a source? It does appear to be largely correct, though was being misused by whoever added it. In ictu oculi (talk) 13:19, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

@Gråbergs Gråa Sång: I noticed that your discussion at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 291 § booksfact.com was archived without a response. As Booksfact does not disclose the presence of an editorial staff anywhere on the site, it is a self-published source and should generally be avoided. — Newslinger talk 13:24, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

removed Negaristan-i-Kashmir (what?)

I'm sure the German academics who study Ahmaddiyya have pinned down this supposed Persian book. But it would need the German sources to mention it. In ictu oculi (talk) 13:28, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

About yuz Asaf the greatest person who is in the Sufi saint

ABOUT ABOUT ABOUT ABOUT YUZ ASAF YUZ YUZ YUZ YUZ ASAF ASAF ASAF ASAF THE THE THE THE GREATEST PERSON WHO IS IN THE SUFI SAINT 103.242.155.82 (talk) 11:48, 3 January 2022 (UTC)