Talk:Yuan dynasty

Convenient Borders

Don't some of the borders of the Yuan Dynasty on the map at the top seem to be conveniently like today's national borders on the map? (I'm not the only one best at wording)

Soy milk emerged at end of Kublai Kahn empire

Bill Shurtleff is cited in the soy milk article as saying that: "a tofu broth (doufujiang) c. 1365 (was noted) amid the collapse of the Mongol Yuan."

References

New map

Old maps A and B

Hello. I was thinking of reworking the main map for this article as presented in the country infobox. The present infobox contains two maps, one of which (A) is awkwardly cropped in the north and follows modern borders to the T at places (as another user pointed out), and another one (B) which contains perhaps too much information for a infobox which I feel would fit better in the middle of the article, possibly under the "Administrative divisions" header. I propose combining the information of both maps into one, which I have already prepared below. Cattette (talk) 07:38, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

What are the sources for the new map? ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 09:27, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

I also feel that your new map still contains too much information and is too visually confusing. Removing the provinces/province names would help. It's also not very helpful to have the Song borders. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 09:30, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

Here's a simplified version https://imgur.com/a/sAncf5m

The sources I used were the previous map B as well as Droysen's Historical Atlas from 1886 https://archive.org/details/DroysensHistoricalAtlas1886/Map%2028%20The%20Mongol%20empires%20around%201300.jpg Cattette (talk) 10:33, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

I wouldn't rely on an 1886 map and an unsourced Commons. I just consulted Atwood's Encyclopedia of Mongolia and the Mongol Empire (2004) which also has a map for the Yuan c. 1294. Good news! It is mostly similar to yours. A couple of points of interest: 1) it doesn't have a strict northern border, but leaves the northern limits of Yuan control undefined as Map A currently does (as is much more realistic than an arbitrary "frontier line" somewhere in the steppe) 2) it includes a "disputed with Chagatai" region around Beshbalik in the West 3) I think the replacement "region names" ("Gobi", "Cathay" etc.) are too misleading to be used. Perhaps we could have the previous province boundaries without the names. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 10:53, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

It's hard to work with undefined boundaries while still making the polity-of-interest pop. I tried to accomplish this by removing the bold line across the northern frontier, thoughts? https://i.imgur.com/bLgnsun.png Cattette (talk) 11:41, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

That works! ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 21:10, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

Your new map looks extremely excruciating and conflicting to maps made by historians of the Mongol empire – crude and overinaccurate - such as the Lingbei, Yunnan, and Sichuan provinces, the locations of Bianjing and Kunming are incorrect. The Chaghadaid, Jochid, Huleguid, Annam, Champa were outside of the Shing-On-Tai system and so they were never parts of the Yuan Ulus; Khmer was not even in Mongol, nor tributary kingdoms should be considered parts of the Mongol empire by any definitions. https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/abs/cambridge-history-of-the-mongol-empire/empire-of-the-great-khan/41EEE744E9D3545E7111DC25B77C33F2 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Genkouinterest (talk • contribs) 01:35, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

Part 2

Old map (lefttop), newly proposed map (rightbottom, fixed)

Fazoffic, see to the right the two maps under consideration, at the size they would appear in the infobox. Your preferred image has much less clearly defined territory, with the Delhi Sultanate almost the same colour as the Yuan. In addition, see the issue detailed above of a defined northern border, when no such thing existed. The choice of POIs is extremely odd: four cities in total are marked, three of which are in one disputed territory, and with labels that are quite hard to distinguish. There is also the "U-Tsang Military civilian" in Tibet—if it refers to the U-Tsang Military Commission, which wasn't established until the Ming, it is quite incorrect. Finally (and this, I will admit, is entirely personal preference) the shade of yellow chosen is pretty ghastly.

Can I ask which source you used? On the image page, it says it was based on the old map, which can't be right seeing as they greatly differ. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 21:31, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

@AirshipJungleman29: I used map A and B as above as reference too, but B only a little. Regarding U-Tsang, maybe I will just delete the U-Tsang text. ▪︎ Fazoffic _{( ʖ╎ᓵᔑ∷ᔑ)} 22:46, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Both maps are unsourced and contain details not found in your preferred map. Where did you get the idea, for example, to insert the U-Tsang Commission? ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 22:49, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

I seem to have confused U-Tsang Ming and U-Tsang Yuan, sorry. Maybe I'll just delete it. ▪︎ Fazoffic _{( ʖ╎ᓵᔑ∷ᔑ)} 23:02, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Fazoffic, the maps from Tan Qixiang's The Historical Atlas of China have been digitised if you need some very reputable sources. Volume 7, the Yuan dynasty, is at here. Folly Mox (talk) 23:11, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

This would be very helpful, Thank you! ▪︎ Fazoffic _{( ʖ╎ᓵᔑ∷ᔑ)} 23:17, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Then, for the color, I will try to make it look more orange, oh and you are wrong if you say it is "yellow". Regarding the disputed cities, I will try to remove two of them and leave only Dokham. ▪︎ Fazoffic _{( ʖ╎ᓵᔑ∷ᔑ)} 23:00, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Regarding the northern border, didn't you say yourself that the northern border of Yuan is uncertain? That's why I didn't add a thick black line in the north. ▪︎ Fazoffic _{( ʖ╎ᓵᔑ∷ᔑ)} 23:06, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

I don't have an opinion on what names the colours representing the Delhi Sultanate and the Yuan Empire should be called, but they do render extremely similarly on my device. MOS:CONTRAST might not specifically apply in the case of user-generated images, but that uppercase shortcut has lots of good links to tools for checking the contrast between colours and for selecting an appropriate palette. Folly Mox (talk) 23:17, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

@AirshipJungleman29 and @Folly Mox: I have updated the map. Please check it again. ▪︎ Fazoffic _{( ʖ╎ᓵᔑ∷ᔑ)} 23:24, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

I still prefer the original (a key, inclusion of more than two cities, city labels instead of provinces); what problem does your map aim to fix? ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 23:28, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

The old map does show major watercourses and political boundaries more clearly, although mountain ranges are not indicated. It's also mostly legible even in thumbnail size. I don't have really strong opinions on this, and only showed up because I watchlist this talkpage and had some links I wanted to share. Folly Mox (talk) 23:42, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

@Folly Mox I am sorry, but, besides the map that is directly viewed from the infobox, can the reader also click on the image to see more details? I don't think there is a serious problem with this.

@AirshipJungleman29: I think the label of cities instead of provinces is a bit confusing. Then, I think my map is enough to represent the area of the Great Yuan and is more pleasing to the eye. After all, besides map B, isn't the old map also the main reference for making the map I proposed? ▪︎ Fazoffic _{( ʖ╎ᓵᔑ∷ᔑ)} 09:03, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

Not to be that guy, but we shouldn't be putting effort into making more raster maps. If people are interested, I could help create a vector replacement, Remsense ‥ 论 23:43, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

I think the example on Tang dynasty is really clean and a good model to work on. I appreciate if people think there should be additional detail for the Yuan, which I can accommodate. Remsense ‥ 论 00:39, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

Not to be that guy

Is "that guy" is ... me?

I think the example on Tang dynasty is really clean and a good model to work on.

I thought so too, however, I suppose some readers might have expected a somewhat more detailed map? After all, every Yuan map design is almost the same, and from the same source too, although there are some differences of opinion about the northern boundary and the disputed territory with Chagatai. ▪︎ Fazoffic _{( ʖ╎ᓵᔑ∷ᔑ)} 09:08, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

No, I'm that guy! The vectorization guy. Remsense ‥ 论 09:35, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

Ohh ... i see. ▪︎ Fazoffic _{( ʖ╎ᓵᔑ∷ᔑ)} 09:43, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

Hello gentlemen? Is there a continuation to this discussion? ▪︎ Fazoffic _{( ʖ╎ᓵᔑ∷ᔑ)} 09:46, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Sorry! I have started a vector Yuan dynasty map—I have the base rendered and the sources collected. I've just been dilly-dallying on picking exactly what year to lock in and draw the precise boundaries. Remsense ‥ 论 10:00, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

for now, maybe my map can be used first? :D ▪︎ Fazoffic _{( ʖ╎ᓵᔑ∷ᔑ)} 12:32, 25 October 2024 (UTC)