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Archive 1

Claim is not supported

The entry states: "During the aftermath of the Siege of Yorktown, the surrendering British soldiers looked only at the French soldiers present, refusing to pay the American soldiers any heed. The Marquis de Lafayette was outraged, and ordered his band to play "Yankee Doodle" in response to taunt the British"

It gives a link to a PBS site. The PBS site does not support this claim. Instead, it says this

"Contemporary accounts are certain, however, of the importance "Yankee Doodle" had in the ceremony. Henry Knox, Washington's chief of artillery, says that the British band was specifically not allowed to play the song. The Marquis de Lafayette writes that the French army played the song to "discomfort" the British as they marched from the fort between the French and Americans." https://www.pbs.org/ktca/liberty/popup_songs.html

Please, correct the erroneous claim!Mwidunn (talk) 01:06, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

Orphaned content

I believe there are other verses to this song, one particularly concerns connections to Cape Cod. talking about going to Aunt Hettie's house and the house of Grandma Chase. Aunt Hettie may have been Mehitable Crosby Nickerson of Orleans and Grandma Chase may have been the mother of Ebenezer Chase of Harwich or Dennis, who was one of the two fifers from Cape Cod who served in the Revolutionary War. Does anybody know the words to this verse? I believe it was used during the bicentennial by members of the Cape Cod Militia. Thanks, Gail Nickerson

Here are lyrics that include the word "macaroni" in the song "Yankee Doodle" 

 Yankee Doodle came to town,
 A-ridin' on a pony;
 stuck a feather in his hat
 and called it macaroni.

 Yankee Doodle keep it up,
 Yankee Doodle Dandy;
 Mind the music and the steps
 And with the girls be handy.

 Father and I went down to camp,
 Along with Cap'n Goodwin;
 The men and boys all stood around
 As thick as hasty puddin'.

 Yankee Doodle keep it up,
 Yankee Doodle Dandy;
 Mind the music and the steps
 And with the girls be handy.

Interestingly, the Wikipedia Yankee Doodle article linked to from the Wikipedia Macaroni article does not mention this version of these lyrics. LarryW 02:54, 3 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Until today.... -- Bevo 03:58, 26 Aug 2003 (UTC)
I can't find a reference, but I recollect reading that "macaroni" was soldier's slang for the gold braid on officer's uniforms of the period. Makes more sense in this context - Yankee Doodle doesn't have a real uniform with gold braid, just a feather in his cap. Makes more sense gramatically too if macaroni is a specific object rather than a fashion. Toiyabe 23:15, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Content copied from Straight Dope?

It looks like much of this article was copied from The Straight Dope, including the typo of "larde" for "large", which I have just corrected. Is there a risk of copyright violation here? http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/myankeedoodle.html

Jeffr 14:01, May 27, 2005 (UTC)

No —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.63.188.33 (talk) 19:59, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

About Macaroni

According to "Merriam-Webster's Word of the Day" [(c) 2006 by Merriam-Webster, Incorporated] : (paraphrased) The 2nd, obsolete meaning of macaroni was " a) a member of a class of traveled young Englishmen of the late 18th and early 19th centuries who affected foreign ways; b) an affected young man : fop". Quote: 

    "As you may have suspected, the "macaroni" in the song "Yankee Doodle"
    is not the familiar food. The feather in Yankee Doodle's cap
    apparently makes him a macaroni in the now rare "fop" or "dandy"
    sense. The sense appears to have originated with a club established in
    London by a group of young, well-traveled Englishmen in the 1760s. The
    founders prided themselves on their appearance, sense of style, and
    manners, and they chose the name Macaroni Club to indicate their
    worldliness. Because macaroni was, at the time, a new and rather
    exotic food in England, the name was meant to demonstrate how stylish
    the club's members were. The members were themselves called
    "macaronis," and eventually "macaroni" became synonymous with "dandy"
    and "fop."

I'd say the statement in the article that reads "The joke being that the Yankees are stupid enough to believe that a feather in the hat is sufficiently spiffy to gain entry to Macaroni." is just another example of guesses and theories presented as fact on Wikipedia... (Note in the quote above how professional authors _qualify_ their statements.)

p.s. Any other references besides the Library of Congress webpage on whether it's "Cap'n Goodwin" or "Captin Good'in" ? - Libertas 04:47, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

  • Agreed - The section about the club should be removed unless it can be well verified. I'll make the change so this reads closer to what's in the description of macaroni (fashion).

More regarding the history

[1] Шизомби 04:38, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Please edit to include more complete versions of Yankee doodle.

I came across this article while doing some research on Yankee Doodle for my American Wars class. It does not appear to be as complete as it could be because it is lacking several versions. I will leave the editing to more experienced folks because I am afraid of committing some infraction of rules regarding editing. Here are the sources for more complete versions of Yankee Doodle and also brief explanations:

1. Complete version of the "Early Version" The date for the earliest version should be 1758.
2. The true 1775 lyrics of Yankee Doodle
3. Lyrics to the 1775 Loyalist version of Yankee Doodle with comments on specific verses

Macaroni and Dandy references

Would the support for Macaroni, as is implied by the Macaroni link not be supported by the second line of the second verse (i.e. "Yankee Doodle Dandy"? This could be evidence that the reference is to Yankee Doodle's Dandyism and hence sticking a feather in his cap to be part of the Macaroni club and calling it Macaroni.

"Full House" reference & Barney? Vandalism?

The Full House reference looks bogus. I don't think there was a "Derek" on the show, and those are just the lyrics to Yankee Doodle Dandy. Also, the reference to Barney is odd. Cleanup? Bigmac31 15:54, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

The Full House reference was not vandalism. Derek was one of Michelle's friends and they had a school play about America. If you want to take it down, you'll have to find a better reason than "Vandalism?" Leaving the Barney version up but taking this down is inconsistent. Papercrab 01:01, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Full House again

By an incredible quirk of fate, I saw the Full House episode alluded to. It has to do with a patriotic school show put on my Michelle's school (Mary Kate/Ashley). It is of course too cute. One of her schoolmates sings "Yankee Doodle Dandy." But still, that's it. He just sings that song. The notes about Barney and Roger Ramjet are ok because they DID appropriate the melody for their themes. But this one is still spurious. Bigmac31 17:01, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

anti-hitler variant

This version by The Firesign Theatre pops up frequently with Fortune_(Unix). Is is noteworthy enough to add to the article?

Yankee Doodle came to term,
Writing Martin Buber,
Stuck a Fuehrer in the back
And called it Schikelgruber! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Frotz (talk • contribs) 09:35, 6 March 2007 (UTC).
Absolutely. I have found a multitude of references on the web.
Metro Lyrics with complimentary Ringtone
KO Video
There are a multitude of additional references via Google Search if none of these are significant enough to warrant inclusion.
I believe that this was from the How Can You Be In Two Places At Once When You're Not Anywhere At All album
--Tralfaz (Ralraz, yech) (talk) 19:41, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Children's version

The way I learned the refrain in kindergarten was:

Yankee Doodle ha ha ha!
Yankee Doodle dandy,
All the lassies are so sweet,
As sweet as sugar candy.

(Whoever thought that one up had a filthy mind.) Kostaki mou 02:40, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm too dense to see it... Doops | talk 04:59, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
I refer to "ha ha ha" instead of "keep it up!" Kostaki mou 02:43, 13 June 2007 (UTC)


I would like to see the citation or source of the "yankee doodle round the world/ sweet as sugar candy". I have never heard those lyrics. I always thought it was "mind your manners and your step/ and let the girls be handy", but "mind the music and the step/and with the girls be handy" sounds alright too. It's a shame if kids today can't learn the legit version of the song. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Asod001 (talk • contribs) 04:35, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Fort Crailo

The song Yankee Doodle Dandy was first written at Fort Crailo, in what is today the city of Rensselaer, New York. Today Fort Crailo is on both the state and national historic registers for that very reason. It was written as an insult during the French and Indian Wars by the local Dutch-decendents about the Connecticut militia that came up to be stationed at Fort Crailo. This is fact, and should be added to this article. I know that Connecticut has a long history with being associated with "Yankee" but its my belief that this shouldnt be an article labelled as being part of the wikiproject-Connecticut seeing as how the song wasnt written in Ct. and Yankee now means anyone from the northern US or even from anywhere in the US and not just someone from Ct. I feel it takes away a piece of history and pride of NY and of Fort Crailo.Camelbinky 12:54, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

What's the evidence in support of that claim? Baseball Bugs 12:58, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
One reason that its part of wikiproject-Connecticut is because its the state song. That's usually justification enough. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.67.97.194 (talk) 16:04, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
Check the article on Fort Crailo and History of Albany, New York. Go to google or google books and check for "yankee doodle house" "yankee doodle dandy" or "fort crailo" and you will probably find more independent sources for Fort Crailo being the place of origin for the song than any other theory on this page.Camelbinky (talk) 06:35, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Have no clue

I am all for the post which consists with the topic macaroni and the macaroni club,for I too have read about the dealings with the exotic ffod thing. The Feather is quite important and everyone has perhaps worn one i definetly agree with also, Though for the The History Buffing isn't also a little bit about heritage and Old Ancient values. There was a King whom Invented this Feather wearing and perhaps had something to do with his female and then again maybe it wasn't about her. A Dandy for sure wore those excellent clothing apparel and huge top hats, and it is i think a mixture of speaking such as Hello Daddy, responce how is everything . responce Everything is just Dandy. Then it was the son's turn; perhaps in a different tune The Doodle perhaps may be a recognition of doing it right and not so much as of a clown or fool type. For insteance a Yankee a grouping of, in wich were allowed to do something by approval this was the attraction of a personage whom asked for obedience and was refered to get with this answer.YES AND KEEP IT Y-AN-KEE perhaps came from each other making fun of each other through time perhasp cashual. The British Brigades did play the Tune in Memory and while doing stayed close to the rear for the aprouch was silent but deadly and as when the Lance was then used for qietness as well. The tune now may be heard with some formation a beep or fol. a lance also may be within the folding of something wich was used though now is used in the position of the pole of lance and clled perhaps a flag , the lance when gather round about and when the sun gleems from it puts a light into the folded flag , when the proportion is almost tucked the Lanceibg is then within brought back and stabled to an upright position. God Day 6:10 P.M. E.S.T. David George DeLancey (talk) 22:10, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Try again, in English. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 22:19, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

British/American song

I've changed it to read as British song rather than American as all sources I've seen, including this page, point towards its origin amongst British soldiers during the Seven Years War.Lord Cornwallis (talk) 21:05, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

I'm surprised no Americans have come looking for you for this. Perhaps we could say its a song of British origin. Clearly Americans adopted it, so its not really British anymore.--Sabrebd (talk) 00:22, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

I think the current text describes the situation fairly well now, originally British but widely adopted by Americans. National ownership of songs is always a complex thing but I'm not sure I'd agree it isn't British anymore. Americans have adopted it, but its still widely known and played in Britain. The British haven't relinquished it.
It seemed inaccurate as it was before, which is why I changed it. Lord Cornwallis (talk) 00:36, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
During the Seven Years War, the colonists *were* British. They were just longer-term residents. It is certainly now very American indeed, and has been for a longer time than there has been a United States of America.- sinneed (talk)
Changed to British/American. Thoughts?- sinneed (talk) 02:58, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Doodle

Here is the original, rude, English meaning, with refs cited you can read. The English don't always use proper English, especially when saying something rude, like calling us "yankee doodles." Where do you think "Give 'em the raspberries!" came from? ("Raspberry tart" rhymes with "fart.") Much of American, Australian, and modern English was once English slang. I've put the definitions in my edit notes. What more do you want? Yet more academic citations? It is not synthesis to conclude the obvious. What does "yankee doodle" mean apart from "OBSCENE ONOMASTICS ..." in the very title of one of the refs cited? -74.162.156.72 (talk) 02:47, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

,similar to the [[Yiddish]] "[[schmuck]]" in double meaning,[1][2][3]

How does this add value to an encyclopedic article about a song?
It is vulgar and seems off-topic.
The wp:burden is on the individual adding the content. I see that it is sourced. I oppose its addition.- sinneed (talk) 21:42, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ Keith Allan and Kate Burridge, [http://www.latrobe.edu.au/linguistics/LaTrobePapersinLinguistics/Vol%2001/1AllanandBurridge.pdf EUPHEMISM, DYSPHEMISM, AND CROSS-VARIETAL SYNONYMY]
  2. ^ A. Bohm, "Wordsworth in Melville's 'Cock-A-Doodle-Doo'" Leviathan Journal compilation © 2007 The Melville Society and Wiley Periodicals, Inc.
  3. ^ Louise O. Vasvári, [http://www.destiempos.com/n15/vasvari2.pdf "OBSCENE ONOMASTICS IN MEDIEVAL TRICKSTER TALES"] TRADICIONES Y CULTURAS POPULARES, Julio-Agosto 2008.

Chopped Civil war bit

Flagged since Jan 2009, no obvious source.

During the American Civil War, Southerners added some new lines of their own:[citation needed]

Yankee Doodle went to town
A-riding on a pony
Stuck a feather in his hat
And called it macaroni.
Chorus:
Yankee Doodle, keep it up
Yankee Doodle dandy
Mind the music and the step
And with the girls be handy.
Father and I went down to camp
Along with Captain Gooding
And there were all the men and boys
As thick as hasty pudding.
Chorus
There was Captain Washington
Upon a slapping stallion
A-giving orders to his men
I guess there was a million.
Chorus

- sinneed (talk) 22:06, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

incautious in personal habits

"incautious in personal habits" - This is very much not correct. Perhaps something like "whose ideas of sophisticated appearance and behaviour are quite quaint" or something. He puts a feather in his cap and thinks he is dressed foppishly ("calls it macaroni").- sinneed (talk) 02:56, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Since "doodle" means (among other things) "penis", to what activity do you think it is that "yankee doodle" refers? ...at the very least, an uncouth, public repositioning (euphemistically called "dressing" oneself by tailors, something never to do in public), and, at the very worst possible meaning, well, ... masturbation. Being considered to be (or, worse, to be expected to be) yanking one's doodle, in whichever way intended, pretty much kills any hope of great expectations in polite society. -74.242.252.203 (talk) 05:30, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
Well if you can find a wp:RS that says that is what "yankee doodle" means, please share. "doodle" is also used to mean "a piece of feces". It also means the little scribbles one "doodles" on bits of paper when bored. Should we infer that "yankee doodle" means going about with a crumpled bit of paper with scrawls on it, tugging? I think we can count on not having such a source appear, but I am certainly interested, to say the least.- sinneed (talk) 05:35, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
Assuming that you are attempting to say that "yankee doodle" means "masturbation", that is not supporting "incautious in personal habits".- sinneed (talk) 05:43, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
Continuing from above, do you deny that "doodle" means both "fool" and "penis", just like "schmuck"? (If so still, read the refs you've deleted, searching on "doodle", and note that "schmuck" follows immediately in one of them.) Assuming you grant that it does, how is it unacceptable synthesis to say "yankee doodle", as a name, refers to someone yanking his doodle? (Whether repositioning or masturbating, it's certainly incautious to be found out, certainly personal, and most likely a habit.) -MBHiii (talk) 18:12, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
"how is it unacceptable synthesis to say "yankee doodle", as a name, refers to someone yanking his doodle?" - Because it is unpublished synthesis as more than one experienced editor has explained. If you find a wp:RS the makes that synthesis, then it could certainly be included. But I have very high confidence that isn't going to happen.- sinneed (talk) 18:47, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Yankee doodle / masturbation

Here below is yet more. Isn't it deliberately obtuse to deny what the two words, used together, clearly mean? -MBHiii (talk) 20:10, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Yankee Doodle - popular tune of the Amer. Revolution, apparently written c.1755 by British Army surgeon Dr. Richard Schuckburgh while campaigning with Amherst's force in upper New York during the French and Indian War. The original verses mocked the colonial troops serving alongside the regulars, and the Doodle element just may have been, or hinted at, the 18c. slang term for "penis." The song naturally was popular with British troops in the colonies, but after the colonials began to win skirmishes with them in 1775, they took the tune as a patriotic prize and re-worked the lyrics. The current version seems to have been written in 1776 by Edward Bangs, a Harvard sophomore who also was Minuteman.

- Online Etymology Dictionary, © 2001 Douglas Harper - "Yankee Doodle." Online Etymology Dictionary. Douglas Harper, Historian. retrieved 11 Sep. 2009.

<Dictionary.com http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Yankee Doodle>.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Mbhiii (talk • contribs) 20:51, 11 September 2009

  • Well. I think you mean:

"Yankee Doodle at [[Online Etymology Dictionary]]". Douglas Harper. 2001. Retrieved 2009-09-11. {{cite web}}: URL–wikilink conflict (help)

Mr. Harper's site is very interesting, and I enjoy his opinions, and I confess this one is new to me. wp:SELFPUB doesn't seem to apply, reading the Wikipedia article about the site. It seems to support your idea of including "pulling the pud" as one possible meaning, but doesn't seem to support anything I removed from the article, so I am somewhat mystified. What do you propose?- sinneed (talk) 21:16, 11 September 2009 (UTC) - edit I wasn't clear about what article. - sinneed (talk) 21:25, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
Restore "04:38, 11 September 2009 Mbhiii (talk | contribs)" at least to show the double meaning of doodle and that using the same slang words for both "fool" and "penis" is not unique to English. MBHiii (talk) 21:43, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
The content removed does not rest on the background shown. So I oppose. Perhaps other interested editors will join in.
But instead of waiting, why not propose content that is based on the source at Yankee Doodle if you want to include it? The fact that I don't wp:LIKE it doesn't have any bearing by whether it deserves a mention... but there has not been such a mention before, so none can be restored.- sinneed (talk) 04:11, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Could yankee doodle be 'yank ye doodle' originally when the british were using it to make fun of americans? Could it be related to jerking off/a jerk? And what does "keep it up" and "And with the girls be handy." mean? It sounds like a bawdy tavern song. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.129.48.229 (talk) 10:19, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

That could be the derivation, but speculation here is pointless. We need sources. HiLo48 (talk) 10:23, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

"The 'lasses they eat it every day." What are the lasses eating? I hope it's hasty pudding and not something else. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.129.48.229 (talk) 10:25, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

diminutive fellow

"such a diminutive fellow would want to take on Lil, until Pete 'yanked his tool ..." - "Lady Lil" from journalist Eugene Field (1850-95) or "oral tradition". - Ronald L. Baker, "Lady Lil and Pisspot Pete." Journal of American Folklore, 1987. <jstor.org http://www.jstor.org/pss/540921>—Preceding unsigned comment added by Mbhiii (talk • contribs) 20:51, 11 September 2009

Vulgarities are expressed in dizzying arrays of possibilities, for instance "verb a noun." Noun=doodle is established already. Verb=yank is demonstrated above. Therefore "yank a doodle" is just as possible a vulgar expression as "pull a pud" (the former gets 3 times the Google hits as the latter). MBHiii (talk) 21:43, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
Then please don't. wp:talk - This is not for general discussion of language peculiarities. Either the published wp:Reliable sources will have already reached the conclusion or it doesn't matter to WP. Please focus on the content.- sinneed (talk) 04:11, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Sample media is not the standard version of the tune

The Carrie Rehkopf version of the song available on the page is quite musical, but seems to be nonstandard. In the chorus, the 7th note of the scale is lowered, effectively modulating to the subdominant. I've never heard this done before, and it doesn't agree with the sheet music shown on the page.

-- Andrew Myers (talk) 22:55, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

In the 1963 edition of the World Book Encyclopedia, the sheet music in the article on Yankee Doodle also has the lowered seventh. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Thinkatron (talk • contribs) 05:19, 28 June 2019 (UTC)

"Dirty" verses

Here are two verses I learned as a teenager, that were claimed to date from the Revolutionary War era:

Yankee Doodle went to town,
And climbed upon a steeple,
Sat up there the live-long day,
And pissed all over the people.
Yankee Doodle went to sea,
Aboard a Cutty clipper,
Filled his ass with broken glass,
And circumcised the skipper. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.5.11.63 (talk) 02:49, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

The music and words go back to 15th century Holland, as a harvesting song that began, "Yanker dudel doodle down." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.181.135.158 (talk) 12:27, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

feminine Americans ?

Is this an assumption made by the contributor? "The Macaronis adopted feminine mannerisms, and the men were deemed 'effeminate.' Thus, the British were insinuating that the colonists were womanish and not very masculine[6]." I read this on a website: "The Macaroni wig was an extreme fashion in the 1770s and became contemporary slang for foppishness. The implication of the verse was therefore probably that the Yankees were so unsophisticated that they thought simply sticking a feather in a cap would make them the height of fashion." If this is correct, then the British were insinuating that the Americans were country bumpkins who didn't understand European fashion, not that the British saw americans as feminine/woman-like.

Also: "Jan-Kees": dutch word for New Englanders moving into Dutch-settled land ----- Yankee = "yancey" native american word for white man — Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.129.48.229 (talk) 10:05, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

Look out for the " Welsh Wig " headgear of American Colonials with feathers stuck in it

I must apologise for just dropping in like this but I was referring to " Yankee Doodle Dandies " and linking to this thread in an email and I think that it is worthwhile encouraging those researching it to consider this angle. The common head gear of sailors, poor colonials and slaves in America were various varieties of woolen cap especially Monmouth Caps which were manufactured in bulk for export e.g. Washington ordered them for his slaves. The gist of the argument is that when the colonial proprietors etc wanted to raise support amongst those not due to be made to be taxpayers they came up with the idea that this common headgear of poorer people and slaves was the equivalent of the woolen hat bestowed upon a freed slave in ancient Roman and Greek ceremonies, and presumeably paraded around therein on poles thus the popular symbol was born of Republican Liberty. Many people sported caps which they may have made themselves but were after a pattern called a " Welsh Wig " which was the sort of thing a peasant or sailor with access to short lengths of threads might make : loose ends stuck out of the cap all over it and hence the argument that this was akin to the wigs worn by the Macaroni or rather by British aristocratic officers who were thus mocked as effeminate in contrast to the sturdy colonials who lived in the rough and fought their own battles " like real men." These in turn may have had feathers stuck in them by surreptitious way of proclaiming to the British forces that the people sporting them counted themselves to be natives - as they did in the Boston Tea Party. Nice theory if anybody can find some contemporary evidence : there certainly are portraits of the original American revolutionary leaders sporting woolly hats and poles ... e.g. the engrosser of the Declaration of Independence Timothy Matlack is depicted by Charles Wilson Peale with the pole and cap http://www.calligraphersguild.org/penmen.html https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Charles_Willson_Peale ... but not a Welsh Wig - http://www.gentlemenoffortune.com/tricorne.htm - see illustration near bottom - http://www.gentlemenoffortune.com/images/H-Thrum.jpg - then stick a feather in it - and imagine these thrum caps made to the French Canadian ' Voyageur ' pattern too perhaps - http://sallypointer.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=41&products_id=270&osCsid=ae96c611d6ba1d4e6effa3583cde113a - http://sallypointer.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=41&products_id=266 - and have an interesting discussion DaiSaw (talk) 12:09, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

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