Talk:Xenophon of Robeika

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography articles

Christianity: Saints / Eastern O. Low‑importance

	Christianity portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Christianity, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Christianity on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.ChristianityWikipedia:WikiProject ChristianityTemplate:WikiProject ChristianityChristianity articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
	Saints portal This article is supported by WikiProject Saints (assessed as Low-importance).
	This article is supported by WikiProject Eastern Orthodoxy (assessed as Low-importance).

Russia: History / Religion Low‑importance

	Russia portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Russia, a WikiProject dedicated to coverage of Russia on Wikipedia. To participate: Feel free to edit the article attached to this page, join up at the project page, or contribute to the project discussion.RussiaWikipedia:WikiProject RussiaTemplate:WikiProject RussiaRussia articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
	This article is supported by the history of Russia task force.
	This article is supported by the religion in Russia task force.

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: rejected by reviewer, closed by Flibirigit talk 00:52, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

(

Comment or view
Article history

)

... ~~that when his vita was lost, the life story of Xenophon of Robeika had to be rewritten?~~

Source: Ankudinov, I. Yu. (2016). Ксенофонтов Робейский Николаевский монастырь [Xenophon Robeysky Nikolaevsky Monastery]. Novgorod Archive Bulletin. Vol. 13. Veliky Novgorod. pp. 83–84.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: location missing publisher (link)

Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Shah Suwar

5x expanded by Evrik (talk). Number of QPQs required: 1. Nominator has 116 past nominations.

--evrik ^(talk) 20:07, 10 May 2024 (UTC).[reply]

Wow, I love this hook. Article is long enough and 5x expanded as of today, Earwig finds no copyvio, sourcing looks good and I'm AGFing on the languages I can't read (DeepL translation shows me it lines up). Hook is cited, again AGF because I can't be certain, given that I can't read Russian, and your QPQ is good. Zanahary (talk) 21:47, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Zanahary: This saint's day is June 28. Would you mind dropping this in the Wikipedia:SOHA for that day? --evrik ^(talk) 16:47, 2 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Evrik and Zanahary: please could you double check the source for the hook? I found it online via Academia.edu here. My reading is that Ankudinov thinks that there was only oral tradition before the 18th-century vita. After discussing two 17th century documents, the sentence on pages 86 and 87 says "Возможно, это свидетельствует о том, что к этому времени текст Жития Ксенофонта еще не сложился, и среди населения бытовали лишь устные предания о преподобном. [Perhaps this indicates that by this time the text of the Life of Xenophon had not yet been formed, and only oral traditions about the saint existed among the population. via Google translate]". TSventon (talk) 16:02, 29 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@TSventon: how about:

Alt1 ... that the life story of Xenophon of Robeika was written centuries after his death?

--evrik ^(talk) 16:07, 29 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That is accurate, I am not sure it is surprising. I think the article needs some work, hopefully Чръный человек can help. TSventon (talk) 16:19, 29 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@TSventon and Чръный человек: I'm sure there is a simple editing fix, but I'm not clear how to edit this to make people happy. I went with the best and most consistent sourcing I had available to me. I'm willing to share author credit with someone who can reconcile the differences. --evrik ^(talk) 16:47, 2 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Evrik: Could you share the excerpt that supports the loss of an earlier vita? Zanahary (talk) 17:49, 2 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's in the Ankudinov work, which you have to translate. --evrik ^(talk) 18:07, 2 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Which page is it on? Could you quote it? Zanahary (talk) 20:02, 2 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Zanahary: Top of page 84. --evrik ^(talk) 22:30, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don’t see that in the source. It says the first known specialized study dedicated to the monastery, from 1901, appears to reference an earlier work from 1891. Zanahary (talk) 17:57, 6 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That fits hook Alt1--evrik ^(talk) 23:51, 6 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

ALT1 doesn’t seem unusual to me. Is it? It’s also not very well supported by the source, which refers to the “earliest known” story and thus allows the possibility for earlier texts not written centuries after his death. I’d recommend you write a new hook. Zanahary (talk) 06:52, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Here is another source used by the ru.wiki

How about this?

Alt2 ... that Xenophon of Robeika simply wanted to live an ascetic life?

--evrik ^(talk) 21:20, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I’m afraid that this is also not unusual, considering he was a monk. I’ll also point out that the article still contains a claim that I tried to check in the cited source and was unable to, in the first sentence of the life story section (that his vita was lost and had to be rewritten). That should be resolved, unless you can substantiate the claim (in which case, it’s make a great hook). Once that’s resolved, I’m happy to suggest some alternate hooks. ꧁Zanahary꧂ (talk) 22:20, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think what you're looking for is here: source used by the ru.wiki --evrik ^(talk) 23:02, 12 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Came to respond to a request by Evrik on my user talk to move this to SOHA, but it sounds like Zanahary had remaining questions about the hook source, was asking for a quote? Valereee (talk) 14:53, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Zanahary, Evrik has been blocked from editing for a period of 1 month from 14 June, so they will not be able to respond here until that is resolved. TSventon (talk) 12:19, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As the nomination is currently not viable and it will be over two months old by the time evrik is unblocked, I am marking it as rejected; if anyone wants to adopt it, the deadline is urgently approaching. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 22:00, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Closing nomination as stale. Flibirigit (talk) 00:52, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Dates

evrik, the ru Wikipedia article says X lived in the 14th-15th centuries per Bobrov or 12th-13th centuries per the later life, while the en Wikipedia article says he lived in the 12th-13th centuries or 200 year earlier per his 18th century biographers, which is correct? TSventon (talk) 00:14, 29 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@TSventon: This source says he died on June 28, 1262. That would indicate he lived in the 12th-13th centuries. I saw the discrepancy in the ru site. Don't know what to make of it. --evrik ^(talk) 02:24, 29 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

evrik, I think that the ru Wikipedia dates are correct, the Wikisource Russian Biographical Dictionary entry here says he died on June 26, 1262 and I looked at a few pages of Bobrov's paper (reference 3) at Academia.edu using Google translate and he seemed to be talking about the 15th century. The Orthodox Church in America source suggests that they used an older source rather than Bobrov. I think you should ask a Russian speaker to check, possibly the author of the ru Wikipedia article. You could offer them a joint DYK credit. TSventon (talk) 08:57, 29 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

FWIW, are we concerned about the month and day he died, or the century? These three sources say 1262 is the year of his death:

wikisource:ru:РБС/ВТ/Ксенофонт (преподобный Робейский)

https://www.oca.org/saints/lives/2014/01/26/100319-saint-xenophon-of-robeika

https://web-archive-org.translate.goog/web/20140430035042/http://www.sedmitza.ru/lib/text/437399/?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en

--evrik ^(talk) 15:31, 29 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Russian Biographical Dictionary" is outdated source. The information placed there reflects the views as of the end of the XIX century. ~ Чръный человек (talk) 16:18, 29 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Also, were you able to check the source for the hook Ankudinov, I. Yu. (2016)? TSventon (talk) 14:11, 29 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

www.academia.edu/26688826/%D0%90%D0%BD%D0%BA%D1%83%D0%B4%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B2_%D0%98_%D0%AE_%D0%9A%D1%81%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%BE%D1%84%D0%BE%D0%BD%D1%82%D0%BE%D0%B2_%D0%A0%D0%BE%D0%B1%D0%B5%D0%B9%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B9_%D0%9D%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%B0%D0%B5%D0%B2%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B9_%D0%BC%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%81%D1%82%D1%8B%D1%80%D1%8C_%D0%9D%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B3%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B4%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B9_%D0%B0%D1%80%D1%85%D0%B8%D0%B2%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B9_%D0%B2%D0%B5%D1%81%D1%82%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%BA_%D0%92%D1%8B%D0%BF_13_%D0%92%D0%B5%D0%BB%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B9_%D0%9D%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B3%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B4_2016_%D1%81_83_141

Yes, but not recently. --evrik ^(talk) 15:31, 29 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Чръный человек: Do you have any comments? --evrik ^(talk) 15:39, 29 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Evrik, I understand that the recent scholarship used as sources for the article, i.e. Ankudinov and Bobrov. prefers a 14th and 15th century date for X, rather than a 12th and 13th century date and the article does not maker that clear. I am not disputing the exact traditional dates. I have now queried the hook on the nomination page. TSventon (talk) 16:04, 29 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

- The reasons for such discrepancies are described in the Orthodox Encyclopedia: "Judging by the linguistic features, the extant version of the Life was compiled quite late: not earlier than the XVIII century, therefore its information is not reliable". Correct dates of his life is XIV - XV centuries. The exact date is unknown since his authentic life has not been preserved. (See [1]) ~ Чръный человек (talk) 16:13, 29 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  - @Чръный человек: I am behind a firewall that limits my access to russian domains. Could you make the needed fixes to the English article? I'd be glad to share DYK credit. Thank you. --evrik ^(talk) 16:58, 29 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]