Talk:Whitney Houston/Archive 5

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Funeral

Rev Marvin Winans Sr. performed the eulogy. The eulogy is central to the service and should be noted in the text. Additionally, it is notable that the Mayor of Newark and Governor of NJ attended the service; and the Governor had the flags flown at half mast despite the public backlash that the honor should be reserved for fallen military heros. Missing from the list of performers are R. Kelly, Kim Burrell, and Donnie McClurkin. Missing speakers include Tyler Perry, and Bishop TD Jakes. Are estimates for worlwide viewership available? Thank youDcwikiwonder (talk) 08:44, 20 February 2012 (UTC)DCwikiwonder

Artistry and legacy

The Artistry and legacy section is full of fluff - is a quote farm and basically full of useless material. How can we fix this badly bloated section that has many bad refs- any recommendations of what we can cut? This article is about Whitney Houston not what others have to say or have done because of her.Moxy (talk) 05:37, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Even though I criticized Crowded for adding too much to this section (aka making it crowded, LOL), as seen here and here, I don't see a lot of fluff, Moxy. When it comes to a section about an artist's artistry and legacy, it's always going to be mostly about what others have to say and have done because of that artist. And in that respect, Houston's section is not much different than GA or FA articles such as Michael Jackson, Madonna, Mariah Carey, Lady Gaga, and so on. Although Houston's section could probably use a little tightening, I wouldn't suggest any drastic cuts. Flyer22 (talk) 17:08, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Michael Jackson, Madonna, Mariah Carey, Lady Gaga, and so on are all full of useless stuff. Only in the music bios do we have such BS stuff (for some odd reason in music we always do this). Need to bring up music bios to the same level as the others here on wiki. Have this much info about others is considered undue weight. See Adolf Hitler for what we are looking for from our good bios. Who cares that so and so likes her music... Would we write that her music influenced suicide - so why do we care about what lesser artists have to think? I have just read the Mariah Carey article and this is a bad one ..full of grandiose statements - the article is clearly written by a fanMoxy (talk) 18:40, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

Moxy, all I'm saying is that this type of thing is a common aspect of GA and FA musical biographies on Wikipedia. And these type of articles are clearly different than articles like Adolf Hitler. But just as it matters what others say about Adolf Hilter (historical commentary), it matters what others say about musical artists (critical and/or peer commentary). You can't talk about a person's influence if you aren't reporting what others have stated about that person -- their influence. The same goes for Adolf Hilter. Unlike the Adolf Hitler article, however, musical biographies are often like film articles because they are going to include critical commentary on musical performances, artistry, influence and legacy. All of that is required for a good or featured Wikipedia article about a musical artist, and especially if the article expects to reach GA or FA status. I'm not saying that some of these articles don't need tigtening (aka copyediting and cuts). After all, I mentioned that Houston's Artistry and legacy section could probably use some tightening. What I'm saying is that this material should not be drastically downsized. For example, I definitely understand your objection to listing a bunch of artists in WP:LINKFARM-style just to make a point about Houston having influenced a lot of artists. A simple "She influenced various musical artists" with maybe two examples would suffice. The thing is...when you list one or two examples, then people want to list more, and that is what happened to form that link-farm paragragph in Houston's Influence section. If it's not obvious already, that is one paragraph I don't mind being downsized. Flyer22 (talk) 22:23, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

A heart is not judged by how much you love; but by how much you are loved by others. - The Wizard of Oz (1939 film) (wasn't in the book) Richard-of-Earth (talk) 06:58, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

Whitney Makes History on the BBC Charts- Week Ending 2/18/2012

According to the BBC Charts out of England for the weekending 2/18/2012... Ms. Houston has set a new record for having the most Top 40 singles by an a female artist. She has landed twelve record placing songs. @ 36- "Didn't We Almost Have It All" @ 31- Where Do Broken Hearts Go @ 30- Run To You @ 27- It's Not Right But It's Okay @ 26-- Million Dollar Baby @ 25- Greatest Love of All @ 24- Saving All My Love For You @ 23- How Will I Know @19- I Have Nothing @15-One Moment In Time @ 8-I Wanna Dance With Somebody ( Who Loves Me) @ 6 -I Will Always Love You

It should be noted that her accomplishment surpasses the late Miss Amy Whinehouse's contribution on seven singles in one week. No other female artist has accomplished a feet of this nature and should be included within here list of accomplishments. (71.12.77.180 (talk) 20:53, 21 February 2012 (UTC)) (71.12.77.180 (talk) 21:00, 21 February 2012 (UTC))

Super Bowl Tracksuit Whitney Houston

Mr. Como on 20/20 did a brilliant story on WHitney. To match the song he said that the track suit she wore was also outstanding. The suit was a brand called Jamie Sadock. A famous resort designer. The suit was part of a collection called" Proud to be American" The story goes that Sissy Houston bought the suit at a Fisher Island store. The suit was a men's suit but Whitney loved. The concept was created by Peter Mahmet and designed by Jamie Sadock. peter@wicked-footwear.com, Jamiesadock.com — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pmahmet (talk • contribs) 23:44, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 22 February 2012

Whitney Houston was prounouced dead at 3:55pm PST per the LA Coroner (not 4:00pm as you have stated.) Please correct. Keep the facts correct. It is too easy to get off track and report inaccurate info, and then it becomes fact. Keep facts correct. Thank you. Melinhart (talk) 00:49, 22 February 2012 (UTC)melinhart

Melinhart (talk) 00:49, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Celestra (talk) 03:50, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Actually, the source we cited says 'around 4 p.m.' and in response to the same issue being raised hereWikipedia:Help_desk#whitney_houston I've revised our article accordingly. AndyTheGrump (talk) 04:08, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

ABC News has it at 3:55pm PST and has a video of a police lieutenant announcing it as such here. I'll update the article. Richard-of-Earth (talk) 06:41, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Please correct: 23 Feb 2012 Edit request

Where it says "black figures who died in 2011 including Houston, was followed by" (in the part about her death) it should read: "black figures who died in 2011 included Houston, and was followed by"

She obviously did not die in 2011; her early 2012 passing did not mean she should not be included.

ALSO.. perhaps make mention of her age and the timing of her passing: 49 and a half (and 2 days). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.86.226.19 (talk) 06:58, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

She was 48 and a half (and 2 days), but we just say she was 48. I changed the wording to "with Houston". Richard-of-Earth (talk) 07:32, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Why is the word 'black ' included at all? 'Singers who died' would be fine - she was really not noted for her colour, just her voice.

Star-Spangled Banner

I was wondering if adding that her Super Bowl Performance was lip synced would be objectionable to anyone? That and adding that she changed the time signature of the piece. The second part has always been a complaint about her performance among marching bands in my experience though isn't as notable. Ayzmo (talk) 15:04, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

File:Whitney Houston Barbie I Wanna Dance 1.jpg Nominated for Deletion

An image used in this article, File:Whitney Houston Barbie I Wanna Dance 1.jpg, has been nominated for deletion at Wikimedia Commons in the following category: Deletion requests February 2012 What should I do? Don't panic; a discussion will now take place over on Commons about whether to remove the file. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion, although please review Commons guidelines before doing so. If the image is non-free then you may need to upload it to Wikipedia (Commons does not allow fair use) If the image isn't freely licensed and there is no fair use rationale then it cannot be uploaded or used. To take part in any discussion, or to review a more detailed deletion rationale please visit the relevant image page (File:Whitney Houston Barbie I Wanna Dance 1.jpg) This is Bot placed notification, another user has nominated/tagged the image --CommonsNotificationBot (talk) 16:16, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

Did news of her death really "dominate" national and international media?

Might be a little pedantic but whilst news of her death featured in the UK and Spanish media that I follow, it did not (in my opinion) dominate. Can we have an accurate description. Either narrow it down to dominate celebrity news or change dominate to feature prominently. Regards — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.132.248.83 (talk) 19:37, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Well, the line did specify by saying "the day before the 2012 Grammy Awards." I added "and after" and used your suggested wording "featured prominently."[3] Flyer22 (talk) 01:07, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Yes, Houston's reported death was headline news for days on most, if not all, major media channels. Dominate is a fitting word. 72.224.189.211 (talk) 14:25, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Dominate is not a fitting word. Here in Malaysia, and throughout much of Asia, most news media only ran one story a day on Houston's death. Hardly "dominating". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 180.75.175.81 (talk) 14:14, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Death section too large

I understand that right now there is much interest in the circumstances and consequences of her death, so I wont make an issue out of it and just leave this here to remind people to shorten the death section later on when interest has subsided. Omegastar (talk) 16:05, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

I wouldn't say that it's too large. It's about the size of Michael Jackson's, except smaller. But then again, we haven't even gotten to the memorial and aftermath information yet. Of course, that (the memorial information) should be there later today, but I don't see a problem with hefty sections on her death/memorial, the reaction to them, and aftermath. She's a highly notable figure, and there's a lot to state about those things. Unlike the Death of Michael Jackson and Michael Jackson memorial service articles, we do not yet have similar articles for Houston. So her Death section may be longer than Jackson's, unless we create articles about those things. Flyer22 (talk) 17:15, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

I think the death section should get its own page, just like Michael Jackson's death has its own page. Currently Houston's death section is 5 pages long (when using the scroll button), and the news is only 2-weeks old. As time passes, and more information is given on the death, this section will only expand, basically making the page more about Whitney's death than about her life. Someone should bring one of those "polls" asking wikipedia users if they favor splitting this section into its own page. Stopde (talk) 23:28, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Er, no, it's two A4 pages long. That is not excessively long, and does not necessitate a breakout article. I think it's more likely to be trimmed than expanded. There is still too much "I miss Whitney" cruft. WWGB (talk) 00:01, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Stopde, like WWGB basically stated, we have to wait and see if information about her death will require a separate article. With Michael Jackson, there was an investigation and trial about his death. And though we have heard that there is an investigation about Houston's death, we don't know much about it...which of course means there isn't yet a lot of information out there about it. If ever. Flyer22 (talk) 00:21, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Michael Jackson's death had its page because it had turned into a homicide case. Right now that doesn't seem to be the case with Whitney's yet. BrothaTimothy (talk · contribs) 23:57, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

Her talent exceeds the prior extensive mentioning of her death. It's also more respectful to keep it brief. JohnJaySee (talk) 13:57, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

Why not make a separate page on the memorial service given a few weeks ago? There was much coverage -it was even aired live-, many artists were there with some singing during the service like Stevie Wonder etc or do you think a page as such is irrelevant, not encyclopedic? If it is the case, why keep the Michael Jackson's memorial service? ^^ --83.134.58.73 (talk) 22:13, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

Ancestry percentages, and degree removed from direct continental African parentage

All Hallow's Wraith made an edit to the 1963–1976: Early life section suggesting that Whitney Houston's non-African ancestry was more distant than her African ancestry, and that she was mostly of African ancestry. This can't be factually stated without having her genetic DNA results for both of her parents, which is something she never participated in publicly. According the to this video interview (starting at the :54 mark) of Cissy Houston, Whitney's mother, Whitney's maternal great-grandfather, John Drinkard, Jr., was full Native American. If you go to the 1:00 mark, Cissy Houston states that her great-great-grandfather (Whitney's great-great-great-grandfather) was fully Dutch. Furthermore, Whitney Houston's maternal great-grandmother, Susan Bell Drinkard (nee Fuller), is described by Cissy Houston as being 'Dutch'. The full Dutch ancestor would have been that of Susan Bell Fuller, the great-grandmother.

Even thought her African ancestry was, aesthetically, more dominant, her non-African ancestry is more recent than her African ancestry as she would be further removed from direct African parentage via the Trans Atlantic Slave Trade. Her direct European and Indigenous American parentage is more recent. Therefore, it's inaccurate to state that these ancestries are more distant than her African-slave parentage. Bab-a-lot (talk) 23:26, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

Actually all Humanas as all mammals may origintae in Eurasia so this "American parentage is more recent" may be not exactly be true. Is this talk smoke to cover ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.90.197.87 (talk) 11:50, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

What do you mean by that? Dutch people descent from Nordic Caucasians who evolved outside of Africa. The inheritance of Native American ancestry occurred on the American continent during the 1800s, not in Africa or in Asia. These ancestries were not inherited before her sub-Saharan African ancestors left the continent of Africa - prior to the 1700s. Therefore, her direct non-African ancestry is more recent. She is 3 generations removed from direct/full Native American parentage, 5 generations removed from direct/full Dutch parentage; and more than 5 generations removed from direct/full African parentage. It's an issue of hypodescent but her lineage has known admixture starting with 5 generations ago, at least, which is rather recent. Most African-Americans with lineages rooted in the American south are over 12 generations removed from direct African parentage. Therefore, her non-African ancestry is recent, namely her Native American ancestry, then her Dutch ancestry. Bab-a-lot (talk) 14:41, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

This string of entries appears totally irrelevant to the article - who but a racist would care greatly what % of african she was? She and I share 98% DNA with apes, are we going to query her species next? I moot to delete this section completely.212.139.106.204 (talk) 18:13, 20 February 2012 (UTC)twl212.139.106.204 (talk) 18:13, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Her ancestry is relevant to the article. Her genetic racial percentages can't be determined. Whether she was mostly African, Native American or Caucasian can't be determined. That's the point of this section, in particular. Someone suggested that she was mostly African-American in ancestry, but you can't determine that just by looks or by social race identity. Bab-a-lot (talk) 23:01, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

How is her 'ancestry' relevant to this article? Please justify this statement. The posting above does not justify its inclusion at all.212.139.106.3 (talk) 00:23, 25 February 2012 (UTC)twl212.139.106.3 (talk) 00:23, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

How is the ancestry of any notable person that has an article on Wikipedia where their ancestry is listed relevant? It's relevant because each article offers a brief summary of who these people are . Their ancestry is part of who they are, it's part of their story. And if the information can be cited from a credible source, it should be included. Bab-a-lot (talk) 12:49, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

I don't know. Something about what Cissy said, I don't believe that she has Dutch and Native American ancestry. Cissy in the video stated that her maiden name "Drinkard" was an Indian name and then mentioned that the name came from the Dutch. Which is it? Now maybe I can believe there was some Dutch ancestry but Italian? I wished the Houstons took a test so this could dispel any rumors about what other ancestry was in them besides African. Just saying. BrothaTimothy (talk · contribs) 23:54, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

I'd just rather lay off the 'race' thang - we've already had to delete several 'N' word posts from freaks- you cannot say 'the voice was black' without allowing other people to say 'the crack was too' - white people can sing, black people can sing, therefore no voice is a 'black attribute' - ditto crack addiction- I'd rather just say she was 'human' and leave it all there

Whitney's mother definitely has been lied to. In this article - [4], it describes that Whitney's maternal ancestors came from Scotland and emigrated to Florida. Whitney's great-great-great-great grandparents were Scottish descent. There was only African American descent along with the Scottish. John Houston's heritage is more questionable but mainly it said he was from a mostly African American heritage and his parents were described as mulatto. But definitely no Dutch or Native American ancestry as had been believed. BrothaTimothy (talk · contribs) 20:26, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

I have reverted the additions - this is not a reliable source by any means - see WP:SELFPUBLISH. Pls find a reliable source before re-editing this info.Moxy (talk) 20:39, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

I undid it because the link in the article did provide a link to where Whitney's ancestors came from. Doesn't say anything about Whitney's family having any Dutch lineage. Even Cissy's accounts on YouTube can be questionable. BrothaTimothy (talk · contribs) 23:14, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

Sorry - non of it is reliable even RootsWeb . Can we get you to read over Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources. Basically if you find information in only one place and cant find it anywhere else its the definition of a questionable source. In fact the article says the views expressed are not mainstream nor the views of the family in question. Your also adding words to lead the readers to believe she is more of one thing then the other with the same original research that holds no merit. Cissy's accounts may not be the best source - but its way better then a blog entry by an unnamed author who admits "Contrary To Media Reports & Family Claims," - so in other words the author is saying for us its a "Fringe theory" Moxy (talk) 23:39, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

Hmm, well I don't know. I looked on the surname origins from Houston's family and the names "Fuller", "Drinkard" and "Houston" all have Scottish origins which probably don't mean that Whitney had any Dutch background. I wonder if sometimes when we're told of where our ancestors come from are people accurate. Like I said I don't know how accurate Cissy is with that story. Just my two cents. Nothing in Whitney or her family have any Dutch or Native American Indian background. All of them have stronger African American heritages and probably some Scottish lineage but that's it. If African American Lives was still on, I wished Cissy had to ask about her lineage. It's unclear where Whitney's African lineage is originated from, which is unfortunate. BrothaTimothy (talk · contribs) 05:55, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 5 April 2012

Change spelling of middle name from "Elizabeth" to "Elisebeth"

Source: http://tmz.vo.llnwd.net/o28/newsdesk/tmz_documents/0404_whitney.pdf

70.170.21.159 (talk) 09:44, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

 Not done Your reference is a coroner report. It is possible whoever wrote the report just mis-spelled it. I googled her name with "Elisebeth" and only came up with references to the coroner report, no books. I googled it with "Elizabeth" and found books pre-Wikipedia that use that spelling. Such as Whitney Houston: One Moment in Time, Great African-American Women, Diva: The Totally Unauthorized Biography of Whitney Houston and Biography Today, Annual Cumulation 1994: Profiles of People of Interest to Young Readers. Sorry. Richard-of-Earth (talk) 17:24, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

File:Whitney Houston Barbie I Wanna Dance 1.jpg Nominated for Deletion

An image used in this article, File:Whitney Houston Barbie I Wanna Dance 1.jpg, has been nominated for deletion at Wikimedia Commons in the following category: Deletion requests February 2012 What should I do? Don't panic; a discussion will now take place over on Commons about whether to remove the file. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion, although please review Commons guidelines before doing so. If the image is non-free then you may need to upload it to Wikipedia (Commons does not allow fair use) If the image isn't freely licensed and there is no fair use rationale then it cannot be uploaded or used. To take part in any discussion, or to review a more detailed deletion rationale please visit the relevant image page (File:Whitney Houston Barbie I Wanna Dance 1.jpg) This is Bot placed notification, another user has nominated/tagged the image --CommonsNotificationBot (talk) 13:38, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

Whitney Houston Voice

According to the Irish times, Whitney possesses a five-octave voice. http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/obituaries/2012/0218/1224311978331.html She has a vocal range of A2 - C6. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 112.210.121.118 (talk) 18:57, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Questionable! There's no tangible proof in this Irish times article. And the wikipedia voice section describes Whitney's vocal range abilities very good and more credible. By the way, A2 - C6 is not even 3 1/2 octaves. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.199.204.141 (talk) 23:11, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 4 May 2012

Please changed misspelled word Beverley to Beverly in the paragraph following the header "Death" Rlpierce (talk) 22:39, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

 Fixed Thanks. Dru of Id (talk) 01:25, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

Formatting of article -- the typical exclusion of Personal life sections for musical biographies

I have reverted Bab-a-lot's formatting changes (while also restoring the things I wasn't looking to revert) because, as stated in the previous edit summary, "We don't format musical biographies this way." Not when it comes to most WP:GA musical biographies, and certainly not for WP:FA musical biographies. The personal life information is supposed to be integrated into their respective moments in time. This is seen in the Michael Jackson, Janet Jackson, Madonna (entertainer), Beyoncé Knowles, Lady Gaga articles, and so on. The heading Life and career of course covers "personal life." The reasons for keeping personal life information combined with career information is that it is more orderly and because it helps adhere to the WP:UNDUE policy. As Bookkeeperoftheoccult, an expert in formatting such articles, stated at Talk:Chris Brown (American entertainer) in the section 1.4 needs to be reWritten : 2008–09: Graffiti album and domestic violence case discussion (although that article deviates from this precedent because of a compromise having been made, and because the domestic assault issue spans more than just one point in time), personal life sections "tend more often than not to turn into WP:UNDUE and/or WP:COATRACK. Keep everything in chronological order... See also: Wikipedia:Recentism:

• Recentism is writing or editing without a long-term, historical view, thereby inflating the importance of a topic that has received recent public attention and possibly resulting in:
  • Articles overburdened with documenting controversy as it happens.
  • Articles created on flimsy, transient merits.
  • The muddling or diffusion of the timeless facets of a subject, previously recognized by Wikipedia consensus." Flyer22 (talk) 17:33, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

Sibling

Does Houston have an older sibling? The article cites she is the second child, but no mention of who the first is. ★Dasani★ 05:45, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

"She was of African American, Native American and Dutch descent."???

It's really not appropriate to feature this claim prominently in her biography.

Whitney personally defined herself as black/African-American, and never claimed or identified with possible complexities in her lineage.

But also, what's the point of this claim? Is it meant to somehow distinguish her from other "African-Americans"? Because it does not. Black/African-American, almost by definition, comprises a mixture of races (though mostly black) -- which is why the sentence in question is also redundant...Cissy Houston refers to a "Dutch" grandmother in the cited video to explain her maiden name, Drinkard (which is curious, because it's the father's name that was almost always passed down). But, of course, almost all native born blacks have European surnames and can point to a white ancestor.

Finally, the provided evidence of the claim is weak. Cissy Houston's reference to Dutch and Native American ancestry in that video seems speculative at best. Again, she cites a female "Dutch" ancestor as the source of her maiden name. And she can't even name the tribe of the alleged Native American grandfather -- possibly because the association was an unverified myth, as is true of most blacks claiming Native American ancestors, as Henry Louis Gates states here: http://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Black_Indians_in_the_United_States#Genealogy

Bottom line: Whitney identified as black/African-American. (And proudly; perceived rejection by the black community really troubled this Queen of Pop, who the world embraced across all demographics.) She never claimed any diversity in her genealogy. Its existence, if true, requires stronger verification than the casual, unspecific musings of her mother. And even if this genealogy were verified, it would NOT change her identity or distinguish her from the vast vast majority of blacks in America, to warrant its PROMINENCE in any reliable bio of her.

Fafa9 (talk) 18:20, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

It's stated that she's mostly of African American, or Black descent with some distant Scottish ancestry on her mother's side. It's unclear about her father's origins. His light features would indicate some European descent though both Whitney's parents identified as black throughout their lives. I don't believe the Dutch/Native American lineage and actually did remove it but it was reverted back. BrothaTimothy (talk · contribs) 04:10, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 1 June 2012

This sentence, "She was of African American, Native American and Dutch descent.", in the "1963-1976" section of "Life And Career" is really not appropriate. It should not be so prominently featured in a reliable bio of her.

Whitney personally defined herself as black/"African-American", and never claimed or identified with possible complexities in her lineage.

But also, what's the point of this claim? Is it meant to somehow distinguish her from other "African-Americans"? Because it does not. Black/African-American, almost by definition, comprises a mixture of races (though mostly black, usually) -- which is why the sentence in question is also redundant. Cissy Houston refers to a "Dutch" grandmother in the cited video to explain her maiden name, Drinkard (which is curious, because it's the father's name that was almost always passed down). But, of course, almost all native born blacks have European surnames and can point to a white ancestor.

Finally, the provided evidence of the claim is weak. Cissy Houston's reference to Dutch and Native American ancestry in that video seems speculative at best. Again, she cites a female "Dutch" ancestor as the source of her maiden name. And she can't even name the tribe of the alleged Native American grandfather -- possibly because the association was an unverified myth, as is true of most blacks claiming Native American ancestors, as Henry Louis Gates states here: http://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Black_Indians_in_the_United_States#Genealogy

Bottom line: Whitney identified as black/African-American. (And proudly; perceived rejection by the black community really troubled this Queen of Pop, who the world embraced, across all demographics.) She never claimed any diversity in her genealogy. Its existence, if true, requires stronger verification than the casual, unspecific musings of her mother. And even if this genealogy were verified, it would NOT change her identity or distinguish her from the vast majority of blacks in America, to warrant its PROMINENCE in any reliable bio of her. Fafa9 (talk) 14:03, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Wikipedia IS NOT seen as a reliable source for edit requests!! Mdann52 (talk) 15:56, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

Hi, Mdann52. In fact, sourcing is what I take issue with here, in part. You(?) attribute "Native American and Dutch" lineage to Whitney, so prominently in a bio of her, based on the very casual, unspecific, off-the-cuff musings of her mother. And I'm saying that this is not adequate -- as anyone who is familiar with black genealogical mythology will tell you. Ergo, my reference to the findings of Henry Louis Gates, based on his research, as discussed on that Wikipedia page. But if the Wikipedia entry is not sufficient, here's another:http://galleryqui.wordpress.com/tag/professor-henry-louis-gates-jr/

Furthermore, this genealogical myth is researched and debunked by genealogists and genealogy enthusiasts here: http://www.bookerrising.net/2012/03/did-you-know-ancestry-of-whitney.html http://www.theheritagelady.com/family-histories/drinkard-family-genealogy/

The truth, you see, is that over 90% of black people in America have a few distant white ancestors (and just as many THINK they have Native American ancestors, but they don't). And so the distant whiteness in Whitney's ancestry simply does not distinguish her in any way from the average "African-American". And the problem with the prominent "Native American and Dutch" claim -- in addition to its troubling lack of a reliable source -- is that it gives the impression that Whitney was somehow genealogically and racially different from most black people. This is wrong. (And anyone who knew her knows she would not approve of it.)

It's why the term "African-American" alone sufficiently covers any complexity in Whitney's heritage, as it implies some degree of racial mixture by definition. Any curious reader can be apprised of this by simply clicking on that hyperlink and referring to the "Admixture" section. In this way your purpose can be served -- without risking redundancy and fallaciousness. Fafa9 (talk) 02:48, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

Absence of key event in Introduction? Death?

Isn't it something of a glaring omission that that the Introduction makes no mention of her death? 86.160.86.80 (talk) 20:32, 1 September 2012‎ (UTC)

An editor removed it in March, and I never noticed its removal...despite seeing the lead more than once since then. I have restored the lead's text about her death per WP:LEAD. Flyer22 (talk) 00:15, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

State of Whitney Houston article -- her musical style, etc.

im repelled at the whitney houston article,where she does not have her musical style,music videos and her live concert presence performance,and especially legacy,timbre,Philanthropy and other activities.like the other top selling music divas.what a shame — Preceding unsigned comment added by 105.232.10.139 (talk) 17:22, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Huh? We do have the Artistry and legacy section. As for singing or performance style, I'm not sure she had just one type. And adding such information requires WP:Reliable sources and hard work to do it justice. Flyer22 (talk) 01:48, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

October 2012

Please correct the link target from [[AT&T]] to [[AT&T Corporation|AT&T]]. 12.153.112.21 (talk) 17:47, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

 Done .Moxy (talk) 18:59, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

Citation 127

Citation 127's link is a URL that no longer exists. There might be others, this is just one that I happened to stumble upon. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.196.64.201 (talk) 18:38, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

IP, what is currently reference #127 ("Spielberg Dethrones Oprah As Highest-Paid Entertainer," The San Francisco Chronicle. September 12, 1994. Page C16.) doesn't have a URL link in this article. Are you stating that you found the URL link for it online and that the URL link doesn't work? Either way, there are currently dead links in the article. This can usually be fixed by finding copies at Internet Archive. Flyer22 (talk) 18:55, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Tina Turner came before Whitney Houston

"Houston's subsequent singles from this, and future albums, would make her the first African-American female artist to receive consistent heavy rotation on MTV.[28]"

This is untrue. Tina Turner was the first African-American female artist with heavy rotation on MTV, thanks to her 1984 hit album Private Dancer. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Infamous30 (talk • contribs) 22:24, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Commenter above me is correct. Tina Turner was the first with Private Dancer in 1984.--BeckiGreen (talk) 18:39, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

Call for cleanup

I think this article should be called for cleanup, it is way too long on some (or many) parts with a plethora of not-so important events and it lacks a "Personal Life" section — Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.197.53.126 (talk) 06:34, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

The Personal life section is integrated into each section of the Life and career section; this is the typical format for musical artist biographies, at least for WP:GAs and WP:FAs. See Madonna (entertainer), Janet Jackson, Beyoncé Knowles and Lady Gaga for examples. It keeps the personal life matters together with what was going on at that time in the artist's life; this is in contrast to including all that information in a Personal life section, which can seem to be WP:UNDUE WEIGHT. The Michael Jackson article didn't use to have a Personal life section either, and the one that's currently there is a one-sentence section pointing readers to articles that go in-depth about his personal life. Flyer22 (talk) 07:35, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

Edit Request =

Can we add The Bodyguard soundtrack and The Preacher's Wife soundtrack to the discography section of her page? They are both considered Whitney Houston albums by Billboard, RIAA, The Grammys etc. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.205.97.90 (talk) 15:23, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

This space is solely for studio albums. Her independent discography page covers this. Tbhotch.^™ Grammatically incorrect? Correct it! See terms and conditions. 23:35, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

But Prince has Purple Rain and Graffiti Bridge on his discography section, Mariah has the Glitter soundtrack too. I'm sure there are many other cases like this too, so can we add them? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.205.97.90 (talk) 15:25, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 27 February 2013

Whitney lover 123 (talk) 00:14, 27 February 2013 (UTC) all I want to do Is change the picture

Please propose a picture to change it to, and gain consensus from other editors. Camyoung54 talk 02:04, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

The Cosby Show

In the 1980's,Whitney auditioned and got the role of Sondra Huxtable. She then stated that she wanted to be a singer. That's when Sabrina lebouf took the role. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Whitney lover 123 (talk • contribs) 00:22, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 21 April 2013

On the Song "I Will Always Love You" by Whitney Houston you say this about it below "The single peaked at number one on the Billboard Hot 100 for a then-record-breaking 14 weeks, number one on the R&B chart for a then-record-breaking 11 weeks, and number one on the Adult Contemporary charts for five weeks, thus becoming the first single to top those three charts simultaneously for five weeks"

That said, Ray Charles' "I Can't Stop Loving You" also achieved this similar feat in 1962 being #1 on all the Pop, R&B and Adult Contemporary charts around the same time for 5 at least 5 weeks. We should learn from history or you should have a music historian write these things. 208.54.87.238 (talk) 19:43, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

I have closed the {{edit semi-protected}} request as it is a complaint without a specific "change X to Y" request to edit the article. If any editor sees fit to follow up on this user's complaint feel free to do so. —KuyaBriBri^Talk 20:54, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

It's just a long version of "please remove this false statement". The statement that it was the first to do so was not in the source, so I've removed it.—Kww(talk) 15:38, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Proposed split

This article is very, very large, and should really be split for a more comfortable navigation. The largest section in the page is her death, so I'd recommend that be separated into its own page. WikiRedactor (talk) 19:00, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

I agree with this proposal. John Lennon, Michael Jackson and Marvin Gaye's deaths are given their own pages and since her death grabbed as many headlines as theirs did. I say, why not? BrothaTimothy (talk · contribs) 18:26, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

BrothaTimothy replying in this thread reminded me of this discussion (which I'd seen pop up on my WP:Watchlist days ago).

A split for the Death section of this article isn't needed, as it was in the case of, for example, the Michael Jackson article; the Death of Michael Jackson information needed its own article because it was (in a way) overwhelming the already big Michael Jackson article and there was still a lot to report on the death of Jackson. Per WP:Content fork, we should strive to keep aspects of a topic in one article instead of causing readers to go to multiple articles, unless necessary. Further, the Artistry and legacy section (including its subsections) is the biggest section of this article. That stated, I'm not terribly opposed to a split in this case, since it better allows for significant expansion of material regarding Houston's death. Flyer22 (talk) 18:41, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

Also, per WP:SIZE (specifically readable prose), I don't consider this article "very, very large." I've seen Wikipedia articles like that. This one, while large, is not one of them. It's standard size, considering all the other Wikipedia music biographies of very famous celebrities. Flyer22 (talk) 18:50, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

I concur, but with the above editors who do not believe that this should be split, per reasons similar to theirs. --Qwerty Binary (talk) 13:30, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

Qwerty Binary, I was the only editor above who argued for not splitting the article. So you are agreeing with that argument, correct? Flyer22 (talk) 14:00, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

Yes. I agree with you and your reasoning in entirety. --Qwerty Binary (talk) 14:05, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

I'd also argue against a split. This article is large, but not 'very, very large' by the standards of WP:SIZERULE, and no one section dominates. I'd argue instead for some good old-fashioned copyediting of certain sections to make them more concise without removing any facts about her life or any of the existing references. In particular, the Whitney Houston#Reaction section seems unnecessarily detailed now that the dust has settled. While the reactions of her relatives, Dolly Parton and Bobby Brown may be worth quoting, the others could probably be replaced by something like, "other musicians and celebrities including .... also paid tribute [refs]". The last sentence of the section,

Accompanied by Esperanza Spalding belting out "What a Wonderful World" along with the Southern California Children's Choir, Houston was featured in the In Memoriam montage alongside other cinema greats at the 84th Academy Awards, held at the Hollywood and Highland Center on February 26, 2012.

could be replaced by simply

Houston was also featured alongside other recently deceased screen stars in the In Memoriam montage at the 84th Academy Awards on February 26, 2012.

Qwfp (talk) 08:49, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

I've gone ahead and made those changes, and introduced a sub-section about the pre-Grammy party. I'll leave it up to others to continue the process, or revert... Qwfp (talk) 09:11, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

Signature

All I did was properly add Whitney's Signature with a proper license. No need to delete it. --Datyger (talk) 03:11, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

No that is not all you did. You changed the infobox to another one so you could add an image that is not required and adds nothing to the article. noq (talk) 13:39, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

All major artists have signatures in their infobox just like that. It wasn't that serious to delete it. The signature was properly licensed. You're just being stubborn with the page. Signatures make the infobox more interesting. Whatever --Datyger (talk) 00:49, 25 November 2013 (UTC)

That is simply not true, a random look through several musicians articles did not show any - it may be some do, but nowhere near "All". They do however use the infobox you want to change this article from using. noq (talk) 11:35, 25 November 2013 (UTC)

DONE --Datyger (talk) 18:23, 25 November 2013 (UTC)

I honestly don't see what's the problem with a signature. There is nothing wrong about it, it was properly licensed and added more visual information WhyHellWhy (talk) 03:06, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

Why?

Why is this article an 'Infobox person' and not 'musical artist'?--108.64.1.166 (talk) 08:54, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

BrothaTimothy is the one who changed it; so he is the only one who can answer "why" on this. Flyer22 (talk) 09:05, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

I changed it because I felt that additional information needed to be included. BrothaTimothy (talk · contribs) 19:38, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

BrothaTimothy, I see that that's essentially what XXSNUGGUMSXX stated to the IP when the IP asked the same question at the Katy Perry article. As seen in that diff-link, XXSNUGGUMSXX explained in a bit more detail, though. Seems to me that Template:Infobox musical artist needs tweaking -- that a proposal for changes with regard to more detail should be made on that template's talk page. Flyer22 (talk) 19:52, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

Judging by the Change of infobox musical artist to infobox person discussion currently noted there (see here), the "more detail" aspect has already been addressed and discussion is still open on that. Flyer22 (talk) 19:57, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

Since Flyer22 mentioned me, I will use this to mention that "Infobox person" seems to be the most flexible of all templates. As I previously stated, one can incorporate things like "Infobox military person" or "Infobox musical artist" into the person template by embedding them and have more information showed that the military person and musical artist templates wouldn't normally display. For Whitney here, I fully support the use of person template with embedding musical artist as the musical artist template doesn't show notable things about her like the cause of her death and her marriage to Bobby Brown. XXSNUGGUMSXX (talk) 22:42, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 April 2014

112.211.38.139 (talk) 06:04, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

No request Cannolis (talk) 07:20, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

Semi Protected edit request - June 2 2014

Out of random curiosity I discovered two dead source links in the course of reading this article. I'm requesting they be fixed.

1.) Source #198 - https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Whitney_Houston#cite_note-198 - which leads to: http://www.haring.com/!/404.php?date=1986&genre=Public%20Projects&id=00108

This leads to a not found error on the artists website with a statement that many url's have been shuffled around. A quick search found the referenced image on the same website at the following working url: http://www.haring.com/!/art-work/108#.U4zXaPldWSo

While unrelated to this specific fix...I also find the sentence using this reference to be slightly questionable and out of place within the context of what's being talked about in that paragraph. Just my 2 cents - thought I'd bring it up. Perhaps others feel the same?

2.) Source # 187 - https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Whitney_Houston#cite_note-Sawyer-Houston-Interview-2002-187

This leads to a broken link on a whitney houston fansite: http://www.whitney-fan.com/nr/tv/015.shtml

Further searching of the fansite revealed no interview transcript (as per the rules I read in the link rot guidelines I checked there first). Regardless, I think that the following transcript on the actual ABC website would be a much more legitimate and stable reference link anyways: http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/transcript-whitney-houston-im-person-life/story?id=15574357

The date posted on the website is in 2012 but it is in fact the transcript of the 2002 whitney houston interview (and has the relevant "crack is whack" quote).

As a side note: I hope that I am doing this right - this is my first time doing an edit requiring a bit more involvement that the quick anonymous typo corrections I've made in the previous decade. I dunno if I'm formatting this 'request' properly or not (the template page was a little confusing). I've finally decided to make an account as I'd like to contribute a bit more. I did as much reading up of the relevant pages concerning 'link rot' and 'semi-protected edit requests' as I could. The former was pretty clear in laying out the procedure, but the latter was a little confusing so I did the best I could. If someone wants to correct my formatting and advise me on the correct approach next time around I'd greatly appreciate it. I hope these corrections can be made! All the best. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wilsnipeforfood (talk • contribs)

Partly done: Hey there ! Good catch. I have gone ahead and replaced the citations with the ones you provided. As for your concern regarding the tone of the sentence and the context , since I'm not totally familiar with the subject, I am going to hold off on that. Feel free to make changes when you become auto confirmed or bring it up here again on talk. NQ (talk) 22:00, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 July 2014

112.210.61.219 (talk) 19:39, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

Not done: as you have not requested a change.
If you want to suggest a change, please request this in the form "Please replace XXX with YYY" or "Please add ZZZ between PPP and QQQ".
Please also cite reliable sources to back up your request, without which no information should be added to any article. - Arjayay (talk) 20:51, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

Potential discrepancy between stated fact and citation

Just a quick one, could someone check the "Death" section? The article states that 'Bobby Brown... left before the service began,' while the associated citation has the headline, 'Bobby Brown leaves immediately after service began' (sic). Thanks 106.71.1.92 (talk) 03:19, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

Accolades

Hi! I was just wondering, why are her awards not briefly mentioned in the lead like in Mariah Carey's article (FA)? --Sofffie7 (talk) 21:47, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

Good thought, but I'm not sure which ones (if any) should be named in the lead. Snuggums (talk / edits) 23:24, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

As the lead currently is, it uses four paragraphs, per WP:Lead, to adequately summarize the article. The third paragraph briefly addresses the awards aspect, but the lead as a whole gets across the achievements aspect, which takes care of summarizing the Awards and achievements section. If more awards are considered to be needed in the lead, we should simply state that she has won numerous awards, and give two or three more examples. Flyer22 (talk) 23:32, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

But then again, the first paragraph already notes "In 2009, Guinness World Records cited her as the most awarded female act of all time." Flyer22 (talk) 23:37, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

Not sure about you, Flyer, but I feel the lead could be better organized. Trying to think if a good way to do so..... Snuggums (talk / edits) 23:42, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

Voice

Houston was not a mezzo-soprano, but a soprano. Her voice was weathered down and forced into a mezzo tessitura over the years, but she was a true spinto soprano. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.54.14.165 (talk) 00:48, 27 September 2014 (UTC) Whitney Houston's vocal capability was undoubtable to many but her emotional interaction with in each song she sang is what made her the legend she is today. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jackelinem (talk • contribs) 17:33, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

True statement?

The lead says "With the album, Houston became the first act (solo or group, male or female) to sell more than a million copies of an album within a single week period under Nielsen SoundScan system." but the soundtrack isn't a Whitney album in it's own right, it's Various artists.  — ₳aron 09:50, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

Presumption that audiences racist

The statement - referring to The Bodyguard - that "Houston's mainstream appeal allowed people to look at the movie color-blind." implies that audiences are inherently racist. Not being an American, I cannot say whether that is true in the USA, but in my experience audiences never judge a character by their colour - except perhaps when the actors race does not match the role - i.e. a Chinese Jesus would attract comment in most countries (unless of course it was a Chinese film).Royalcourtier (talk) 03:22, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 1 February 2015

• File:! Header text !! Header text !! Header text

93.33.134.93 (talk) 08:50, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. Edgars2007 (talk/contribs) 09:51, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 15 June 2015

First Paragraph, 3rd Line. Whitney Houston represented a new genre; pan-global corporate pop. Houston was nicknamed "Whitey" and booed on several occasion such as the 1989 Soul Train Awards. Coleryan14 (talk) 17:26, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Edgars2007 (talk/contribs) 10:05, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

The so-called "death dagger"

Primarily per here (grafs 14–15) and here, I personally would like to see this trend nuked, and nuked with fire. Regardless of its history, the dagger's resemblance to the Christian cross is repeatedly cited as a point of contention; at best, it seems more confusing than helpful—for example, it struck me more as a memorial image than a reference mark—which in and of itself argues for its removal. (The sources cited at Dagger (typography)#Modern usage suggest that the dagger's use is primarily limited to manuscripts and genealogy.)

Thoughts? —ATinySliver/^ATalkPage 🖖 23:31, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

I agree with removing it. When Idealtype added it, seen with this and this link, I was tempted to revert. But I decided to let someone else take care of it, since I did not feel like debating the matter. Going by this edit by Idealtype, it's clear that Idealtype thinks that the cross clearly indicates death. Next to the name in the infobox, I don't think it clearly indicates death at all. Flyer22 (talk) 00:50, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

... indeed, which is exactly why it struck me as a memorial of sorts, rather than as a reference mark. Meantime, per H:IB, data that goes into an infobox should be "Materially relevant to the subject"—relations are included when relevant; their dates of death (or birth, for that matter) or even that they've died is not relevant, IMO—and should not be "Trivial details"—that is, material that "is trivial and would not otherwise be included in the article body". Whitney's death is not trivial within her daughter's article, given how it affected BKB per the sources and given the similarity in their manners of death, but the article correctly goes into those details in appropriate depth. One also can argue–and many have, per a search—that one's relations are perpetually present-tense, regardless of whether they're alive. —ATinySliver/^ATalkPage 🖖 01:18, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

Per the sources above, come to think of it, its use in genealogy specifically accompanies a date ("Whitney Houston (†2012)", for example), while in manuscripts its use is to call to a footnote that shows the date of death. As such, it does not mean, "this person is dead." —ATinySliver/^ATalkPage 🖖 01:48, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

External links modified

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This is about the whitney houston article

I don't agree with locking the article when there are still chatting history to clear up and add to her legendary history....example Whitney Houston has the longest no.2 charting single in Billboard hot 100 history. That information is not able to be included on the Billboard hot100 article or the Whitney Houston article due to protection the song is Exhale (shook shoop) ..I have cited sources and reputable sources to back up this fact. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Whitneyluv (talk • contribs) 19:29, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

Factual error: did NOT sing backing vocals on...

Forgive me if this is not the correct place for suggesting this edit.

The article states that Whitney Houston sang backing vocals on Chaka Khan's 1978 version of "I'm Every Woman". However, from Wikipedia's own page for "I'm Every Woman", this is not true.

From that page: "Contrary to popular belief, Houston did not perform backing vocals on Khan's original 1978 version. Chaka Khan confirmed this in an interview with Lester Holt in 2012.[17]"

If there is a better approach for handling this kind of suggested edit, please let me know.

Thanks! -Bob

Nyckidd24 (talk) 00:38, 14 January 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 January 2016

Please change her height listing from 5'6 to 5'7. She herself states that she was 5'7 in a 2002 interview with Diane Sawyer, five minutes into their interview. CLarcholey (talk) 17:15, 22 January 2016 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Mlpearc (open channel) 18:00, 22 January 2016 (UTC)

External links modified

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Associated acts update

I noticed that Enrique Iglesias and Chaka Khan and Stevie Wonder aren't among other performers listed in Associated acts category. "Could I Have This Kiss Forever" (2000) - single with Enrique Iglesias (music video) "I'm Every Woman" (1993) - single with Chaka Khan (music video) "We Didn't Know" (1992) - song with Stevie Wonder (audio track on music album "I'm Your Baby Tonight")

~~MaxDolphin~~ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.216.150.161 (talk) 16:08, 24 May 2016 (UTC)

BISEXUAL

According to the Wendy Williams' Hot Topics segment, there is confirmation from Bobby Brown that Whitney was bisexual with Robyn Crawford. Can this be added? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.37.224.210 (talk) 01:53, 10 June 2016 (UTC)

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Semi-protected edit request on 20 July 2017

Boogie bx (talk) 18:48, 20 July 2017 (UTC)

cousin Robert Troy Taylor

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. jd22292 (Jalen D. Folf) (talk) 18:53, 20 July 2017 (UTC)

Voice Type

I strongly think that Whitney Houston is a spinto soprano instead of a mezzo as descriptively stated here. Biomedicinal 17:03, 22 July 2017 (UTC)

Biomedicinal, we can only go by what WP:Reliable sources state. Tumblr is not a WP:Reliable source. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 12:11, 24 July 2017 (UTC)

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Semi-protected edit request on 24 August 2017

there is a tonght that should be tonight 2605:E000:9161:A500:3832:5234:5BA4:7DB6 (talk) 08:30, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

•  Done DrStrauss talk 08:58, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

Picture In Article

Cissy Houston is Whitney Houston's mother, and it's OK to write about various people in Whitney's article that were in her life. Mentioning people in Whitney's article is acceptable as this is an article about Whitney. However, the picture in the article where there is a digital sign stating Dr. Emily "Cissy" Houston does not belong in Whitney Houston's article. That belongs in Cissy Houston's article on Wikipedia. Even though Cissy Houston is her mother, this is still Whitney Houston's Wikipedia article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.209.95.237 (talk) 19:55, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

Sexuality

In the recent NYT profile (Bernstein, Jacob (30 September 2017). "Production of a Lifetime: Whitney Houston and Clive Davis". The New York Times.) Arista Records manager Kenneth Reynolds is cited as follows:

"Ms. Houston’s relationship with Robyn Crawford, an essential person in her camp from before Ms. Houston became famous until 1999, was the subject of speculation and gossip. Now, the narrative that the two were lovers had gained real currency, even without confirmation from Ms. Crawford.

Mr. Reynolds, who toured the country with Ms. Houston during the promotion of her debut album, described her lesbianism as “an open secret” at Arista during those early years."

This sounds like there should be more sources about Whitney Houston's sexuality. Yet the topic isn't addressed in the article. Intentionally?  Sandstein  22:06, 30 September 2017 (UTC)

Sandstein, this is clearly WP:UNDUE. This is not like David Bowie, where his sexuality played a significant part in his career and discussion/debate about his sexuality was rampant. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 22:26, 30 September 2017 (UTC)

I'm not suggesting that we write that she was gay or something like that, but a comprehensive biography should cover all aspects of its subject that have been covered in reliable sources. A mention of the posthumous discussion of her sexuality seems appropriate, similar to other celebrities whose sexuality was a matter of debate (Eleanor Roosevelt, etc.).  Sandstein  12:55, 2 October 2017 (UTC)

Why go deeply into her sexuality as it was not a part of who she was as an artist. And after all, she was married to a man and had a child. Going more into an artist's sexuality seems appropriate if the artist made sexuality a big part of their career, like say David Bowie and his Ziggy stardust alter-ego, Madonna, Prince, Mariah Carey, Donna Summer, Lil' Kim, Foxy Brown, George Michael, Britney Spears, etc. These are some artists who made sexuality a big part of their musical output and image at one point if not continuously in their career. Whitney was never sexual like that in music or on stage so no need to go dwelling deeply into her sexual life. After all, Mariah Carey tried to kill herself but you don't read much about that in her article. Perhaps if Carey had tried to kill herself twice or more it would be paragraphs about it. But since it was once, some people don't consider that as part of her entire life. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.209.95.237 (talk • contribs)

Pinging SNUGGUMS and Tenebrae for their thoughts. There might already be some "gay rumor" material in the article. I think I saw it at some point in the past (I might have even reverted it), but I'd need to read the "Life and career" section thoroughly. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 22:33, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

If it's only a rumor, then definitely leave that out per WP:NOTGOSSIP. I should also note that the phrasing from the NYT quote above isn't entirely clear on whether the "her" in "her lesbianism" refers to Houston or Crawford. Snuggums (talk / edits) 23:41, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

Id have to agree with Snuggums. While I think any public figure's sexuality is an important part of their biography, whether it was part of their musical persona or not, the Times passage doesn't seem conclusive. An "open secret" is another way of saying "rumor." --Tenebrae (talk) 19:46, 9 October 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 October 2017

1) Please change "On April 27, 2016" to "On April 28, 2016" 2) Please change "that a documentary film on Whitney Houston's life and death, entitled as Whitney: Can I Be Me is scheduled to be released in 2017." to "that a currently untitled documentary film on Whitney Houston's life and death is scheduled to be released in 2018." FYI - The untitled doc was delayed 'til 2018. Iwaly92 (talk) 04:13, 26 October 2017 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 05:07, 26 October 2017 (UTC)

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Semi-protected edit request on 22 December 2017

Please change the documentary title - "Whitney: Can I Be Me" to "Untitled Whitney Houston Documentary". The description of the documentary film refers to a film which has not been released and doesn't have an official title yet (the film will be released in 2018).

Please change "and the production team, Altitude," to ", the production team, Lightbox, and the distribution team, Altitude". Lightbox is the production company and Altitude is a distributor of the film.

Please change "The biopic will be released theatrically on June 11, 2017." to "The biopic will be released in 2018". The film has not been released yet and the date is not known. LightboxMedia (talk) 16:47, 22 December 2017 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. You also appear to have a WP:COI with this article. Upsidedown Keyboard (talk) 14:45, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 2 January 2018

Please delete the whole "Film" section and change it to: "A documentary film on Whitney Houston's life and death, entitled Whitney: Can I Be Me, was released in 2017. It was co-produced and co-directed by Nick Broomfield."

This change is requested as at the moment, the description refers to The Untitled Whitney Houston documentary, a different which has not released yet and is directed by Kevin Macdonald. 85.118.2.11 (talk) 15:45, 2 January 2018 (UTC)

Already done by SunCrow. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 18:33, 2 January 2018 (UTC)

Deterioration of voice

SunCrow, I appreciate you adding information on this. As seen at Talk:Mariah Carey/Archive 12#Being neutral: Voice section etc., where Petergriffin9901, SNUGGUMS, IndianBio, Calvin999 (₳aron), Escape Orbit and myself commented, there was talk of adding such material here and at the Mariah Carey article. That stated, you should typically stay away from citing the Daily Mail (especially for WP:BLPs) since the Wikipedia community has repeatedly found it unreliable and has banned it for WP:BLPs. Yes, Houston is now deceased, but still.

Also pinging Tenebrae in case he wants to weigh in and is not watching the article. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 18:46, 2 January 2018 (UTC)

That's a tough one. Daily Mail items relying on anonymous sources and on the paper's own gossipy claims are clearly unusable. In this case, the writer is quoting the vocal coach directly in an interview the writer conducted. So I think it may be usable. However, we already have quotes from the vocal coach from ABC News and Inside Edition, so I'm not sure why we need '"Daily Mail as well.

One additional note: The New York Post cite has to be removed. All it's doing is referencing ABC News. Since the ABC News cite is there, the Post cite is completely superfluous. --Tenebrae (talk) 19:02, 2 January 2018 (UTC)

"Huston"

At one point early in the article her name is misspelled as "Huston". I'd have changed it myself, but there's no "Edit" function in the article, so I hope someone else can fix it.89.212.50.177 (talk) 11:53, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

Done. Thanks. Larry Hockett (Talk) 11:55, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

More inclusive and accurate description of Houston's influence in lead?

I'm wondering if the phrase "influenced several African-American women artists who followed in her footsteps" could be added to, as Houston influenced also people who might not be categorized as "African-American women artists".

I would suggest changing that phrase to: "influenced several African-American women artists, and artists across gender and nationality" or "influenced several African-American women artists, who followed in her footsteps, and artists across genders, ethnicities, and nationalities."

Cited statements in the influence section, support such a rephrasing, though I haven't checked those sources themselves. Another link supports some broader influence of hers too.

I'd also second that any citations be re-added to the lead, as in another talk post here. Jcollins1018 (talk) 01:42, 10 September 2018 (UTC)

I don't strongly oppose it, but the point of that text is supposed to be Houston's impact on the music industry as a person/woman of color. She helped break down the color barrier. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 21:33, 10 September 2018 (UTC)

I'd agree that we should recognize Whitney Houston's particular and complex influence on women and persons of color in the lead. Perhaps "women of color" as you employ is a more inclusive and accurate phrase than "African-Americans", since the latter, narrowly defined, limits her influence to people of one nationality. Clearly, Houston's influence went beyond the American nations/continents Jcollins1018 (talk) 12:46, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

Sources on this matter stress the African American aspect. See the beginning of the "Influence" section in the article. We follow what the WP:Reliable sources state. The Twitter source is not a WP:Reliable source to state "beyond the American nations/continents." Like this Los Angeles Times source used in the article states, "But in 1985, a sophisticated pop-R&B singer named Whitney Houston surfaced. For black women singers she's the Messiah. With one multimillion-selling album, her first--'Whitney Houston'--she made black women singers fashionable again. At nearly the same time, there was another emerging star, Sade, singing an updated version of the soft Brazilian jazz that was popular in the early '60s. The Houston-Sade breakthrough paved the way for Patti LaBelle and Janet Jackson to become major stars in 1986. But last year's most significant new star was Anita Baker, arguably the most promising black woman singer of the '80s." This MTV source states, "The third single from Houston's debut album was the one that changed everything. The clip helped introduce the singer to a wider audience when it became one of the first videos by a black female singer to earn heavy rotation on MTV." Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 15:01, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

Hi @Flyer22 Reborn:, Sorry, but why specifically is the Ebony Magazine twitter source above not reliable? I appreciate the quote you shared from the LA Times link, as well as a quote of Anita Baker's following it in that article, but are you implying that the phrases "African-American" and "black" are interchangeable? Btw, I do agree it would be good to specify Houston's influenceon African-American women artists, I'm just trying to be as accurate and inclusive as possible. Also, btw I saw a couple articles today about Houston and Sade, claiming that their influence on people of color in America and Brazil were perhaps more nuanced than is clear here.Jcollins1018 (talk) 19:16, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

The Ebony Twitter source says nothing about Houston influencing women of color or people "beyond the American nations/continents." That is my point. We also typically should not be using Twitter sources. Have you taken the time to read WP:Reliable sources? The few times we use Twitter sources are for WP:Primary source cases like a celebrity stating what their birth date is. But only when there are no WP:Reliable sources reporting the same. If People magazine reports the same, for example, there is no need to use the Twitter source. I'm not sure where you got the impression that I was stating that "African-American" and "black" are interchangeable, but they often are, as made clear in the African Americans article, although Black British people, for example, also exist. Yes, if we mean black people as a whole, we should state so. And if we just mean African Americans, we should state "African Americans" or "black Americans." And, again, since this article is on my watchlist, there is no need to ping me to this talk page. I ask that you don't ping me to this talk page. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 19:42, 12 September 2018 (UTC)

Does the LA times article then support a change of the line in question to e.g. "influenced several African-American artists, and other people of color"? I have read WP:Reliable sources, but am still confused. Is this Ebony Magazine link better than the Ebony Magazine twitter account link? Jcollins1018 (talk) 21:19, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

The Los Angeles Times source says "for black women singers she's the Messiah" and "she made black women singers fashionable again." As for the alternative link, which I had already looked at, the source must explicitly state she "influenced other people of color." See WP:OR, including its WP:Synthesis section. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 22:51, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

Ok, I'm think I'm still confused about the terminology here, but I appreciate you taking your time with me. Thanks Flyer22! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jcollins1018 (talk • contribs) 00:15, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

Should Houston's influence on people of color warrant an entire sentence or paragraph in the lead? Maybe another paragraph should be added starting with the clause discussed here, eg. "Houston influenced several African-American women artists who followed in her footsteps. Anita Baker, for example, said "because of what Whitney and Sade did, there was an opening for me."..." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jcollins1018 (talk • contribs) 18:05, 21 September 2018 (UTC)

There is no need for quotes in the lead. The lead is meant to briefly summarize. And, per WP:Lead, it should typically be no longer than four paragraphs. The influence aspect is covered by "influenced several African-American women artists who followed in her footsteps." Above, we've been over "people of color." We need reliable sources that specifically state that, since the term people of color can be used broadly. Furthermore, Houston also influenced white artists, but we don't mention that in the lead because her influence on African American women is especially notable, per what I stated above about barriers. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 18:51, 21 September 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for the interesting response, Flyer22! Jcollins1018 (talk) 16:56, 19 October 2018 (UTC)

____

References

Film producer and songwriter

Whitney Houston wasn't just a singer and an actress. She was also a film producer and a song writer. Whitney Houston produced Princess Diaries, Cinderella and Sparkle. She also co-wrote Queen of the night, Count on me and Something in common. Swanhtet904 (talk) 09:39, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

Sourcing in the lead, and conflicting sources

Bluesatellite, regarding this, while, per WP:CITELEAD, the lead doesn't need to be sourced, why did you remove the sources from the lead? We have had editors changing figures in the lead, and having the material cited there for easy checking helps combat inaccuracy.

And regarding this, if the sources conflict, we should see what the literature usually states on the matter and give more weight to the numbers that are usually reported. Adding sources that conflict beside each other, and only going by what one of the sources state, is not ideal. Anyone could come and change the material to what the first source states and ignore what the second one states.

If you reply to me in this section, I ask that you don't WP:Ping me since this article/talk page is on my watchlist. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 09:13, 2 September 2018 (UTC)

Is the removal of sources considered vandalism? Jcollins1018 (talk) 01:47, 10 September 2018 (UTC)

Jcollins1018, no. See WP:CITELEAD. I was simply querying Bluesatellite on matters. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 21:33, 10 September 2018 (UTC)

Flyer22 Reborn, I took a look at your link, but also at the vandalism page. Broadly interpreted, I think removal of sources could go against the project of Wikipedia's "purpose". I think that there is no clear consensus on the removal of these sources: at least you and I are not clearly agreeing with their removal, and I don't see anyone else besides Bluesatellite calling for their removal. Isn't consensus required for removal of sources according to Wikipedia guidelines? Jcollins1018 (talk) 12:54, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

Jcollins1018, it's not WP:Vandalism in any sense of the word. WP:Vandalism is clear about what vandalism is. All Bluesatellite did was move the sources out of the lead; the sources are still in the article. WP:CITELEAD is very clear that adding citations to the lead is a case-by-case matter. As for WP:Consensus, consensus is not needed to be bold; see WP:Bold. On a side note: Your WP:Ping didn't work, but, since this article is on my watchlist, there is no need to ping me to this talk page. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 14:46, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

Flyer22 Reborn, I didn't realize Bluesatellite only moved the sources out of the lead. I don't know if I'd call that "malicious," and I'd have to think more whether I'd call it "removal of encyclopedic content, or the changing of such content beyond all recognition". Thanks for helping me understand how editing Wikipedia works, I respect your experience on the site. Jcollins1018 (talk) 15:41, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

SunCrow, regarding this and this, are you sure that it's not sourced lower in the article? For example, in the "1985–1986: Whitney Houston" section, the following is there: "At the time, the album was the best-selling debut album by a solo artist." But that wording does say "solo artist."

Per WP:CITELEAD, the lead doesn't always need to be sourced. I don't see that the pieces you tagged as unsourced should be sourced in the lead if we aren't going to source anything else in the lead. Maybe we should restore all of the sourcing to the lead that Bluesatellite removed? Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 00:51, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

Flyer22 Reborn, I am not looking to add footnotes to the lede. I inserted "citation needed" tags in the lede today because I noticed that some information there does not appear to be sourced (or, in some cases, even mentioned at all) in the body of the article. Please note that I recently added some sources to the body of the article to support some information set forth in the lede. If I am correct that there are no sources in the article body for the information in the lede that I tagged, that information should either (a) be removed; (b) be sourced in the body of the article; or (c) be sourced in the lede (although that isn't preferred). SunCrow (talk) 01:11, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for explaining. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 01:12, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

____

References

Article setup

As seen here, I reverted this article setup since it is not how we usually format musical biography articles. We would usually keep the life and career material together. Or at least that used to be the most typical format for these types of articles. I'd have to assess other music biographies and see how much this might have changed. Reasons why we format this way are given at Talk:Michael Jackson/Archive 34#Request for comments on restructuring the article. The extensive quoting that was in the "Drug abuse" section was also unnecessary. I'm fine with most of the material being restored, preferably in a condensed fashion, but I disagree with that article setup. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 23:37, 22 November 2019 (UTC)

I agree with the extensive quoting. I didn't add the quotes, I only moved what was already posted. I do think her personal struggles and her marriage to Bobby Brown should be in a separate personal life section, because it's a lot to consume going from reading about her album in one sentence to her drug addiction the next. I've seen plenty of musical biography articles such as Mick Jagger, Eric Clapton, and Tina Turner which separate the career and personal life. In Whitney's case it seems like a better setup so if people want info on her personal struggles they can go to one section rather than read through the article for scattered info. Also, it makes for a better read for those who want info on her musical career and it looks less congested.Twixister (talk) 00:44, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

I know that some music biography articles include a "Personal life" section, but that setup is more common for all other biography articles. I'm not sure how the trend started for music artist biography articles when it comes to keeping the life and career material together (other than their career also being their life). Maybe Moxy, who is one of the main supporters of such a setup at the Michael Jackson article, knows? But it does help keep sections or material that shouldn't have its own sections from becoming WP:Undue, especially in the case of contentious content, such as content on Houston and drugs and the new claim from Robyn Crawford that her early relationship with Houston had been sexual. See my comments about that latter aspect here in a discussion I started (now closed) and here in a discussion Praxidicae started. I'm surprised that other types of biography articles haven't been set up in this way as often (if at all), given reasons noted at Talk:Michael Jackson/Archive 34#Request for comments on restructuring the article for such a setup. But I've also seen this setup used for WP:Featured articles more so. For example, the Janet Jackson article currently uses this setup, but also has a short "Personal life" section. I don't know when that "Personal life" section was added (haven't yet checked), but we can see that it was not there when that article was promoted to FA. Similar goes for the Mariah Carey, which currently has a "Personal life" section, but also has material such as "Personal and professional struggles" in the Career section because it coincides with the career material. When that article was first promoted to FA, it didn't have a "Personal life" section; it also didn't have one when its quality was reviewed (WP:FAR) here and here. Editors have been adding such sections to articles when not needed and when the content fits better with the career material. I'm not stating that the personal life content always fits better with the career material. But I am stating that what setup to use is a case-by-case by matter and that, in the case of the Whitney Houston article, the setup it currently has is best for the article. We obviously disagree, and can bring in other editors for their opinions by notifying a few or all of the active WikiProjects this talk page is tagged with above to this discussion. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 13:41, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

How about adding a Personal life section like in Janet's article? Wikipedia has evolved since 2008. The last 15 years of Whitney's life was shrouded with controversies due to her addictions and her tumultuous relationship with Bobby. It is better to put that in one section as I did before and claims such as Robyn's can be added there. The set up as Life and career and stay the same, I'm just suggesting to add a Personal life section so information on is easier to find and add. There would still be a short mention in her life and career such as I did in the edit, but the more detailed portion is better fitted in a separate section.Twixister (talk) 07:19, 4 December 2019 (UTC)

Per what I stated above, I disagree with having a Personal life section for this article. This isn't about Wikipedia having evolved since 2008, especially since not every Wikipedia musician biography has a Personal life section even today. It's about what is best for each individual article. What may or may not work for Janet Jackson's article doesn't automatically work for this one. And Houston's Personal life section, as also seen by your version, wouldn't be as short as Janet Jackson's. It wouldn't be short at all. Outside of Nipplegate, Janet Jackson arguably hasn't been as controversial as Houston. It is exactly because of the controversial aspects of Houston's life and the Crawford claim that I don't think we should have a Personal life section in this article. That section, especially if including subsections for these aspects, will be prone to editors adding and adding to it, making it WP:Undue, and it will be prone to dispute. And without subsections, someone would eventually come along and add them. Outside of you wanting to change the article format, there have been no complaints about the existing material being difficult to find. The subheadings are clear. And with that material mixed in with the rest, it's unlikely that people will unduly focus on those aspects. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 01:55, 7 December 2019 (UTC)

Genre

Shouldn't "Rock and Roll" be one of her Genres since she is in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame? FiggazWithAttitude (talk) 16:38, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

That's WP:Original research. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 21:04, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, thanks, but it was last week's big news story. Can I provide you a link? Which source would you like? FiggazWithAttitude (talk) 16:55, 24 January 2020 (UTC)

Nickname

I just watched the 2018 documentary, Whitney, and her family and friends would call her 'Nippy'. Should her nickname be in her article?Eschoryii (talk) 02:26, 31 January 2020 (UTC)

Duplicate information

Listing her father's death in 2003 is superfluous. Once in "2000–2005: Just Whitney and personal struggles" during discussion about the lawsuit and again in "Death and funeral" in regards to her burial.

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Interstellarity (talk) 18:58, 8 March 2020 (UTC)

Whitney houston

Theres a mistake in her age.. she died at age 38, not 48. Shes born in 1977 and died in 2012. Hello-cool (talk) 13:05, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

Nevermind shes born in 1963, i just saw the active years... sorry Hello-cool (talk) 13:08, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

"Love Will Save The Day" When discussing the 'Whitney' album from 1987, it mentions four singles. There were five singles. The final single was "Love Will Save The Day", which was a US Top Ten hit. Not understanding why this is removed from the article when it used to be in there. In fact, it's remarkable that this song became a top ten hit as it had no music video to help with the promotion of the song, and the album it was released from was well over a year old when this single was released. In spite of all this, the single still made the top ten. A one sentence mention of the song such as "a fifth and final single, "Love Will Save The Day", became a US Top Ten hit", isn't too much to ask. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.251.118.10 (talk) 19:19, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

Wrong Sources

Hello @Flyer22 Frozen , I wanted to get your opinion for what the right type of source is for a celebrity page, like the Whitney Houston one. Would it be like references to the billboard charts (https://www.billboard.com/music/Bobby-Brown/chart-history/TFC/song/13515), or something like a a discogs page( https://www.discogs.com/Bobby-Brown-Duet-With-Whitney-Houston-Something-In-Common/release/689571)? i apologize for you having to do the reversion, I thought that it was important info in that area. I am relatively new to this so I am not 100% sure of what is right for that kind of stuff. Weatherman27 (talk) 05:37, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

See WP:Reliable sources. See what its sections state. So regarding this? A billboard.com source that mentions that Houston was featured in that song and music video with Brown would be fine. Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 02:46, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

Okay, thank you for helping me figure that out. Weatherman27 (talk) 19:28, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

"Reference"

A21sauce, regarding this? That is a reference, how? A reference to what? Please provide actual detail, using a WP:Citation style.

Please don't ping me if you reply. Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 03:41, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

Don't be a smart ass. Just correct it, like a nice person, thanks--A21sauce (talk) 19:29, 5 September 2020 (UTC)

A21sauce, what I stated above has nothing do with being a smart ass. I did not know what you were adding. So I asked. What you added was not in citation style. So I pointed you to the our guideline on that. That is better, but could be improved. And documentaries are not the best sources to use. So I will look into that. In the future, don't get snippy for no valid reason. Simply adjust your editing to comply with how Wikipedia does things. For example, personal attacks should be avoided per WP:No personal attacks. Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 09:11, 6 September 2020 (UTC)

Lack of information in general intro paragraph

Whitney Houston is most known for her vocal ability and referred to as "The Voice". (This should be included in the first paragraph). According to VH1, she is also one of the greatest pop culture icons of the 20th century. (https://boards.theforce.net/threads/vh1s-200-greatest-pop-culture-icons.12558311/)

I've reverted much added in the last couple of months to the lead, including the above, back to as it was in May. I'd like to explain why.

Much of what was added, replacing what was originally a neutral and factual explanation of Houston's significant success and notability, was simply peacocking. It provided no explanation as to why Houston was so highly regarded, and didn't even explain who thought it. It was simply unattributed opinion.

What is more significant? That Houston sold over 200 million records, or that Rolling Stone thought she was one of the greatest vocalists of all time? Both worth mentioning, certainly. But I'd say the former is a strong fact, worthy of the lead, and the latter is a notable opinion best left to later. And best made more accurate. She's listed 34th greatest, which doesn't sound half as impressive as how the article had it.

I'll put aside the fluff piece cited from Smooth Radio. Is this really the best that can be sourced about Houston?

The reference to "The Voice" is cited later to single article. If this was how she was commonly known, and fitting of mention in the lead, I'd expect it to be much more frequently mentioned. As it is "The Voice" is a common accolade given to impressive singers, and Houston cannot claim to be the one and only, known by it alone.

I believe my revert of recent, needless, changes returns the article to a better state, making it more neutral without diminishing anything of Houston's notability. --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 17:36, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

Hi. Thanks for your comment. Edited so that the intro is not biased Phạm Huy Thông (talk) 23:00, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

Please stop edit-warring to add your preferred text to the lead section. You've been reverted multiple times. The WP:ONUS is on you to gather support here on the talk page for your preferred text.

WP:LEAD says the lead section is supposed to be a summary of the article body. Stop adding new ideas to the lead section.

I don't like your version because it is too hyperbolic, too promotional, too worshipful. Houston was good but other singers are good, too, so let's present her to the readers with some objectivity. Binksternet (talk) 23:08, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

I agree with the removal of this material from the beginning of the lead. The "one of the greatest vocalists of the late 20th century" and "an icon of popular culture" are too much. Meters (talk) 23:32, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

It would seem that consensus is still against your edits @Phạm Huy Thông:. No-one is saying that (most of) what you are adding is not sourced, just that it is not suitable for the lead paragraph or neutral, and has made the article worse. Please respond to the points below.

• "Renowned" is not neutral and peacocking.
• You haven't supplied anything to demonstrate she was commonly known as "The Voice", and it is a unremarkable name for a singer. One cite to one review does not verify this.
• Saying she has influenced 'generations' of artist is ridiculous. She was at her peak less than 40 years ago. How many generations is that?

--Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 08:37, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

Hi @Escape Orbit, here is my explanation.

1. “Renowned” We should consider the difference between “fact” and “promotion”. Whitney is a worldwide singing star and most known for her vocal talent. This is well-known. Let’s alone “renowned”, many reliable sources and the audience said she is “one of the best singers of her generations” but some people here seem to disagree, and that surprised me. Look at other artists’ pages like Celine Dion, Janet Jackson, Aretha Franklin, George Michael, Stevie Wonder or Madonna, there are way more praised words but I don’t think these are “peacockings” when millions agree with that. The same for Whitney.

Sources: https://www.allmusic.com/artist/whitney-houston-mn0000820434/biography https://entertainment.time.com/2012/02/11/the-voice-of-america-whitney-houston-1963-2012/ https://www.rockhall.com/whitney-houston-inductee-insights https://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/12/arts/music/whitney-houston-dies.html https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/music/features/whitney-houston-greatest-voice-her-generation-6988653.html https://www.latimes.com/local/obituaries/la-mew-whitney-houston-20120211-story.html https://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/music-arts/whitney-houston-voice-instrument-meant-grammy-awards-stage-article-1.1021134 https://www.independent.ie/entertainment/music/whitney-houston-the-voice-of-an-angel-whose-life-became-a-place-of-drug-hell-35783096.html https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-17039208 https://www.fox6now.com/news/whitney-houston-titan-of-music-industry-dead-at-48 https://www.latimes.com/local/obituaries/la-me-whitney-houston-20120211-story.html https://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/music-arts/grammys-whitney-remembered-year-death-article-1.1259802

2. “The Voice” “The Voice” has been associated with Whitney Houston since her peak till now. I know that some singers also named “The Voice”. However, the title is most commonly associated with Whitney. Like there are hundreds of sources nicknamed artists like Janet Jackson, Whitney Houston, Celine Dion “Queen Of Pop”. Even Whitney was called “Queen of Pop” by the AP, Billboard, Today News, CBS, CBC,etc, but “Queen of Pop” is still a nickname most commonly associated with Madonna. Those who are called “The Voice” like Vern Gosdin (1934–2009), Steve Perry (born 1949), Sandi Patty (born 1956), Lenny Zakatek (born 1947), Roger Huston (born 1942), Russ Bray (born 1957) and Lil Durk (born 1992) don’t have the popularity, impact and popularly called like Whitney and still have title “The Voice” on their first paragraph, their pages should be considered not someone who most commonly associated with it.

“Known simply as ‘The Voice,’ Whitney Houston once ruled the 80s-90s pop charts, but her turbulent marriage to Bobby Brown took a toll on her health and professional life.” (https://itunes.apple.com/us/movie/whitney-houston-everlasting-voice/id1062469678)

Time: “The Voice: Whitney Houston (1963-2012), one of the greatest voices in the history of American popular music” (https://entertainment.time.com/2012/02/11/the-voice-of-america-whitney-houston-1963-2012/)

“Three years after music legend Whitney Houston left the stage, her legacy continues to influence the music industry, and her death still haunts the world. Reflect back on the career of a singer who earned the title, "The Voice." (https://abc7news.com/whitney-houston-dead-bobbi-kristina-brown-bobby/511931/)

“The Voice: Remembering Whitney Houston (1963 — 2012) The Voice. When one is colloquially known as such, it becomes easy to forget that such sound emanates from inside a human being. The Voice. A disembodied moniker. So spectacularly general, simply an article and noun sans the dressing of more instructive, clarifying wording: “of reason” or “of God” or “of an angel.” The Voice. So intangible, yet generating a viewable response that cannot be contained within the body, that must express itself in paroxysms of applause, spontaneous standing, or dimmed eyes, mouths agape, heads nodding in utter disbelief of what their ears have witnessed. The Voice. An appellation, like air or magic, that implies an ethereal otherworldliness, an omnipresence so unique that the one to which it refers can never be confused with another. This weekend, The Voice lost its vessel.” (http://blackyouthproject.com/the-voice-remembering-whitney-houston-1963-2012/)

Whitney’s estate: “Whitney Houston - With Love, The Fans: A Tribute to "The Voice" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptMyuiaZkh4&t=67s) “Whitney Houston possessed a mezzo-soprano vocal range, and was commonly referred to as ‘The Voice’ in reference to her exceptional vocal talent.” (https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/p/whitney-houston-as-i-am/8d6kgwxn8dx1?activetab=pivot%3aoverviewtab)

“Clive Davis dubbed Whitney Houston “The Voice.” Not just any voice, but the quintessential picture of stellar vocal ability. And according to fellow singer Faith Evans, the title is more than well-deserved.” (https://www.vibe.com/features/editorial/why-whitney-houston-deserves-be-called-voice-249128/ https://gulfnews.com/lifestyle/clive-davis-on-discovering-whitney-houston-1.579273

3. Generations The sentence “Influenced generations of African American artists” means “breaking gender and racial barriers”.

“Houston's rise to international stardom is often cited as one the largest influence for black artists being granted mainstream airplay, along with Michael Jackson. Her video of "How Will I Know" become the first music video by a black woman to receive heavy rotation on MTV. Her breakthrough success is said to have paved the way for other black female artists, including Janet Jackson and Anita Baker.” (https://abc7news.com/whitney-houston-dead-bobbi-kristina-brown-bobby/511931/)

“The singer had a long history with the network, dating back to her 1985 self-titled debut album. The third single from that multiplatinum smash was "How Will I Know," which helped introduce the singer to a wider audience when it became one of the first videos by a black female singer to go into heavy rotation on MTV, blasting open the doors for a whole generation of R&B and pop divas to follow.” (http://www.mtv.com/news/2497143/whitney-houston-mtv-tribute-in-her-own-words/)

“Houston was a major catalyst for a movement within black music that recognized the continuity of soul, pop, jazz and gospel vocal traditions.” (https://www.nytimes.com/1986/12/31/arts/the-pop-life-1986-a-musically-conservative-year.html)

Black artists who were inspired by Whitney

1980s:

-  Janet Jackson (https://abc7news.com/whitney-houston-dead-bobbi-kristina-brown-bobby/511931/)

- Anita Baker (https://abc7news.com/whitney-houston-dead-bobbi-kristina-brown-bobby/511931/)

- Michael Jackson (vocally) (https://www.fanpop.com/clubs/invincible-era/articles/71701/title/interview-michael-jackson-vibe-magazine-2002)

The 1990s: - Mariah Carey (https://web.archive.org/web/20120712031027/http://www.rollingstone.com/music/lists/100-greatest-singers-of-all-time-19691231/whitney-houston-19691231)

- Toni Braxton (https://books.google.com/books?id=2LkDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA39)

- Destiny’s Child (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IgG46fFFio&t=378s)

- Mary J Blige (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYL9nGEuh4c)

- Brandy (https://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/singers-influenced-whitney-houston/story?id=15632234)

- Monica (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Lr0ILHxeB4)

20th century: - Rihanna (https://www.nbcnews.com/pop-culture/pop-culture-news/rihanna-wants-play-whitney-houston-movies-flna639782)

- Beyonce (https://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/singers-influenced-whitney-houston/story?id=15632234)

- Jennifer Hudson (http://www.mtv.com/artists/jennifer-hudson/related-artists/?filter=influencedBy)

- Usher (https://www.huffpost.com/entry/usher-remembers-whitney-houston_n_2409328)

- Amerie (https://books.google.com/books?id=AAwEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA20)

- Alicia Keys (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdDX8lgGbcY)

- Kelly Rowland (https://books.google.com/books?id=eIFwcIQHLeQC&pg=PA166)

- John Legend (https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-news/john-legend-remembers-whitney-houston-98890/)

- Jhene Aikos (https://www.billboard.com/articles/news/7972933/jhene-aikos-journey-from-idolizing-brandy-to-being-inspired-by-kid-cudi)

- Jordin Sparks (https://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/sparkle-star-jordin-sparks-lost-whitney-houston-died/story?id=16992517#:~:text=LOG%20IN-,'Sparkle'%20Star%20Jordin%20Sparks%20'Lost%20It'%20When%20Whitney,her%20idol%20was%20found%20dead.&text=It%20was%20then%20she%20learned,Nightline%22%20in%20a%20recent%20interview)

- Jazmine Sullivan (https://apnews.com/article/nfl-new-york-whitney-houston-super-bowl-music-c8f251d9aa2e274c4a241fb0dc74c52c) Phạm Huy Thông (talk) 00:57, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply. To address your points;

1 "Renowned" is still a peacocking term. It is even right there on the MOS page as an example of a word to avoid. The purpose of the lead is to explain to the reader who the person is and what makes them notable. Neutrally. It is not to emphasis to the reader that they are really, really famous and some people really, really like them. What appears on other articles is not relevant. They are about other people, using different words, and may have their own issues.

2 Thank you for providing sources. I would still question the value of "The Voice" appearing in the lead so prominently, because a nickname does nothing to establish notability. What does it tell the reader that is so important? Are there not more significant facts that should be mentioned first?

3 Her influence is not questioned, but I would suggest that 'generations' gives the impression that she's been around a hundred years. It's not necessary and not neutral.

I think you need to think about whether you have difficulty being neutral about Houston, and your approach to editing this article. Is it to make a better article that accurately and neutrally describes Houston, or is it to create a fan page that tells people know how wonderful she was? Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, it cannot express an opinion. I think most of your edits have moved the article towards doing that, and have not improved the article. --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 11:01, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

"The Voice" is not a term commonly associated with Whitney, let's be real. Most people around the world would think of a certain singing TV show, when we say "the Voice". So it certainly doesn't belong to the lead. Agree with Escape Orbit that a lot of these content seems fancrufty and peacocked. Bluesatellite (talk) 11:47, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

Hi everyone, i think the first paragraph is pretty good now. Phạm Huy Thông (talk) 06:15, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

Citations in “Impact” section , summaried genres and themes and reorganized 1st paragraph

‎ I'm happy to annouce that i just saved all the dead cited on "Impact" section. I just also added summaried Houston music's genres and themes. If you think some parts of them are not reliable, add cite needed and ask me on the talk page. Phạm Huy Thông (talk) 22:03, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

Soulful voice

We need at least one adjective to describe the singer's voice, as well as explain why her vocal performance is influential. “Soulful” with a popular gospel singer like Whitney is nowhere near “peacock”. Other vocalists they have dozens of praise adjectives on the opening. Phạm Huy Thông (talk) 17:48, 1 August 2021 (UTC)

According to the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, SOUL is "music that arose out of the black experience in America through the transmutation of GOSPEL and RHYTHM AND BLUES into a form of funky, secular testifying."...characteristics are a call and response between the soloist and the chorus, and an especially tense vocal sound. The style also occasionally uses improvisational additions, twirls and auxiliary sounds. Phạm Huy Thông (talk) 18:08, 1 August 2021 (UTC)

You got that quote from Wikipedia, not from a reliable published source. Please stick to reliable sources, and restrict your references to ones that mention Whitney Houston. Binksternet (talk) 18:54, 1 August 2021 (UTC)

Whitney is referred to as the “Prom Queen of Soul” in the 80s. You can google the title and her name will be directed Phạm Huy Thông (talk) 04:48, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

There's a Time magazine piece from 1987 titled "Prom Queen of Soul", but it wasn't meant to be an honor. It was a put-down. The New Yorker said as much in their article about Houston: "The 'Prom Queen' part wasn’t a compliment." Binksternet (talk) 05:25, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

I don't see why everyone on here is trying to "downplay" her voice. that's not "authenticity". First “she is not one of the greatest voices of the late 20th century”, “she is not an icon”, then “her voice is not acclaimed by critics, doesn’t have the prowess” and now her voice is not “soulful”? Come on!! I already gave plenty of reliable sources and you guys ignored it.

Sources: https://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/whitney-houston-1963-2012-gallery-1.1021213

https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/music/features/whitney-houston-greatest-voice-her-generation-6988653.html?amp

https://www.rockhall.com/whitney-houston-inductee-insights

https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-lists/100-greatest-singers-of-all-time-147019/steve-winwood-3-222650/

https://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/12/arts/music/whitney-houston-dies.html https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/music/features/whitney-houston-greatest-voice-her-generation-6988653.html https://www.latimes.com/local/obituaries/la-mew-whitney-houston-20120211-story.html https://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/music-arts/whitney-houston-voice-instrument-meant-grammy-awards-stage-article-1.1021134 https://www.independent.ie/entertainment/music/whitney-houston-the-voice-of-an-angel-whose-life-became-a-place-of-drug-hell-35783096.html https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-17039208 https://www.fox6now.com/news/whitney-houston-titan-of-music-industry-dead-at-48 https://www.latimes.com/local/obituaries/la-me-whitney-houston-20120211-story.html https://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/music-arts/grammys-whitney-remembered-year-death-article-1.1259802 Phạm Huy Thông (talk) 06:20, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

You are losing perspective and objectivity. Lots of superlatives can be laid on Houston but our job is to winnow through them and deliver to the reader an accurate summary. A bunch of the superlatives are one-offs with no support from other media sources. And some of the things written about Houston are contradictory to things written about others. Binksternet (talk) 14:24, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

I don't think I have to prove anything more at all. All of the sources I provided are from the biggest news channels/websites. You are ignoring the recognition of people for her. There are a lot of ridiculous hypes in other artists pages, including some of the pages you visited. For example, the intro paragraph of Donna Summer said “her music gained a global following” which is hard to know if it was credible or not.

1st: The link cited is dead

2nd: I believe she is only famous in America and Europe (?? not even sure) based on the recognition in my community. Almost no one have ever heard about her here! Phạm Huy Thông (talk) 16:35, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Uncertainty of total sales: 170 and 200 million

I have seen many reports of 170 million units sold, especially in 2012 and 2013 reports, and I have seen 200 million reported. The problem here is that 30 million after death is unexplainable.

At List of best-selling music artists, Houston is classified in the 200–250M group, but just barely. The two numbers are shown there: 170M and 200M. Both of them are shown because there is uncertainty about which one is correct. So let's not say that 200M is absolutely true; the summary of all published sources cannot support that assessment. Binksternet (talk) 14:24, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

The available certification of Whitney Houston is 142.8 Million units, which is more than 71% of her 200 Million claimed sales. I don't think her claimed sales of 200 million are inflated at all.— TheWikiholic (talk) 14:51, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for that evaluation... it makes me feel better about 200M. If it's that solid, I wonder why 170M is retained at List of best-selling music artists. Binksternet (talk) 17:11, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

They do it for almost every artist (especially the artist who charted before the 90s). For instance, see the claimed sales of Madonna, who charted two years earlier than Whitney. The lower claim is 275 Million for her and, the higher claim is 300 Million. Whereas the available certification for Madonna is only at 179.9 million units, which is only around 60% of the 300 Million claimed sales for Madonna.— TheWikiholic (talk) 18:12, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Obviously the sources were cited said more over 200 million records Phạm Huy Thông (talk) 15:02, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Source from this article: https://www.nbcnews.com/pop-culture/pop-culture-news/was-whitney-houston-broke-when-she-died-flna1C9379732

Source from the list best-selling: https://news.sky.com/story/its-not-right-but-its-okay-whitney-houston-to-perform-again-in-hologram-tour-11725353

The CNN confirmed Houston sold more than 170 million before she died which was 10 years ago: https://www.cnn.com/2012/02/12/showbiz/whitney-houston-by-the-numbers/index.html

The first two sources just released 2 or 1 year. Phạm Huy Thông (talk) 15:07, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

The sources were cited said “over” Phạm Huy Thông (talk) 03:13, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Voice Type: Soprano

Houston possessed a soprano voice type. The Kennedy Center lists Houston's voice as a soprano amongst the likes of operatic sopranos including Renee Fleming and Leontyne Price. The description of her possessing a "mezzo-soprano vocal range" is incorrect. A tenor voice could "sing" in a mezzo-soprano range but still be a tenor, in the same way Houston was a soprano voice type who sang in both soprano and mezzo-soprano ranges.JonathanLGardner (talk) 18:16, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

References

i have no problem with changing it, but then change it everywhere in the text. mezzo soprano is mentioned and sourced multiple times in the article, including a quote, and she also has it listed as a category. i reverted you because it created a mishmash. --FMSky (talk) 19:00, 23 August 2021 (UTC)