Talk:White Mexicans/Archive 2

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Article should be kept

This article should be kept because it has stimulated a great deal of talk and debate in the area of race and ethnicity within the Mexican population. As a Mexican-born U.S. citizen I have observed that the most apparent disaggreement among the respondents to this article has its root in their perception of race. Unlike the U.S., Mexico has never upheld the one-drop rule with relation to blood quantum. The Spanish colonists, unlike their English counterparts on the eastern seaboard of North America, were quite inclusive in their relationship with the natives. Mixed unions between Spanish men and Indigenous women had the blessing of the Spanish Crown and the Roman Catholic Church because their offspring ultimately provided the manpower behind the construction of a new society. The capacity for power and decision-making rested in the hands of the unmixed Spanish elite simply because they were not willing to share it with anybody else once they had subdued most of the native population of Central and Southern Mexico. However, as most natives began to die in the late 16th century due to diseases brought by Europeans, the number of people of mixed descent began to climb at such a fast rate that they became the majority ethnic/racial group in New Spain (Mexico) by the 18th century. Consequently, while mixed individuals usually married other mixed individuals, some went on to marry "pure" Spaniards. Thus, they ended up procreating a people whose racial background got closer and closer to their European roots, while at the same time distancing themselves from their indigenous past. With this in mind, how do we apply the concept of race to a country that is color stratified?

My point is...American racial concepts cannot be applied to Mexico because of the overt historical differences in reference to their relationship with indigenous peoples. The fact that White Mexicans exist is obvious. But, to actually put a number to their population is something that comes directly from a racist mindset because it seeks to insert a segregationist attitude where there's never been one. White Mexicans, unlike White Americans, can have parents, siblings, and other relatives that are "Non-White." This is so because racial purity does not exactly place someone under the "White" label but rather his or her overall physical appearance. Now, combine this idea with other factors such as socioeconomic status, and/or language spoken (Spanish or Indian) and you have a pretty good idea as to how Mexicans perceive themselves culturally and ethnically.

In conclusion, I will be brave enough to say that "Whites" in Mexico hover between 25-33% of the population. By this I mean that, regardless of racial ancestry, 25-33% of Mexican citizens can move to Europe (particularly the Mediterranean part) and blend in perfectly given their physical appearance. Another 3-5% could probably blend in Northern Europe considering that they have Nordic features such as blond hair, blue eyes. Nevertheless, as long as "White" Mexicans conform to the cultural idiosyncracies of their country they will always be Mexican, first and foremost. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Latinhooligan (talk • contribs) 23:24, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

You are right, the debate is very important and interesting, but Wikipedia is not space for it. This is an encyclopedia, not a blog or a forum. In fact you have the answer in you hand, when you say: American racial concepts cannot be applied to Mexico. Maybe, the fact that some people considered white exist in Mexico is obvious, but isn't the existant of "White Mexican" as ethniciy.--GiovBag (talk) 23:43, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

That is an interesting commentary on the issue, Latinhooligan. I think it shows that there is a need for an article on how ethnicity and race are perceived in Mexico, as this is clearly a complex issue. Obviously, this will need reliable sources, but I'm sure they must exist. Do we need an article on 'Mexicans of European descent' though? From what you are saying, it would seem not - individuals seeing themselves as 'white' is no indication that they see this as a distinct ethnicity, and if 'whiteness' in others is nothing but a subjective opinion based on appearance, to treat them as a distinct group at all becomes even less tenable.

You are absolutely right about the tendency in Wikipedia articles to look at issues of 'race' from a US perspective - this is misleading, and actually hides more than it reveals. The key, as always in such cases, is to ask how the people one are describing see the issue. This of course requires an understanding that there may be many different perspectives on the issue, amongst Mexicans themselves. Any article will need to acknowledge this too, and not just make the sort of generalisations implied by the ethno-categorising logic of this article. AndyTheGrump (talk) 23:49, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

No it is not a complex issue, and it is not an issue at all. You want to make a complex issue for whatever reason. And Nobody is looking at race from a US perceptive. Secret killer (talk) 19:47, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

If it isn't "an issue at all", why should we have an article about it? What exactly is notable about a Mexican being of (partly) European descent? As always, it is for those who wish to include content in Wikipedia to demonstrate why it should be. If this isn't about ethnicity, or about 'race' then what the heck is this article supposed to be about? Is it any more valid than an article on Left-handed Mexicans, or of Mexicans that can't whistle? Actually, at least in theory, those could be sourced... AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:20, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

If it isn't "an issue at all", why should we have an article about it?

Because it's about giving information to the masses on the different ancestry in Mexico. Is that not what an encyclopedia is for? providing Information on various topics?

"What exactly is notable about a Mexican being of (partly) European descent?"

This makes no sense.

"As always, it is for those who wish to include content in Wikipedia to demonstrate why it should be. If this isn't about ethnicity, or about 'race' then what the heck is this article supposed to be about? "

This article is about Mexicans of European descent.

"Is it any more valid than an article on Left-handed Mexicans, or of Mexicans that can't whistle? Actually, at least in theory, those could be sourced"

Yes it has sources. But you could say the same thing for any article that talks about a group of people in a country. Secret killer (talk) 20:43, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

So basically, you are just going to carry on asserting that because you think the article is about a notable subject, you don't have to demonstrate this notability? That isn't what Wikipedia policy says. If you cannot find sources that demonstrate notability, the article has to go. End of story. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:54, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

"So basically, you are just going to carry on asserting that because you think the article is about a notable subject, you don't have to demonstrate this notability?

I did not assert anything like that. How far are you going to take this fallacious argument? This article has reliable sources, and so on WP:GNG.

"That isn't what Wikipedia policy says. If you cannot find sources that demonstrate notability, the article has to go. End of story."

Actually it does not have to go: WP:FAILNSecret killer (talk) 21:24, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

OK, per WP:FAILN, see this diff. [1] Now find sources that assert that there is anything notable about being of European descent, if you are a Mexican. Or find sources that e.g. academics have discussed 'Mexicans of European descent' as a subject. And while you are at it, find sources that tell us how 'European descent' is defined. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:34, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

The article is about a real topic. It needs improvement, sure. But it should not and won't be deleted. Especially not when there's at least 17 millions (other sources say 20 millions) of white Mexicans of European descent. In this case, should we also delete an article about indigenous people in Mexico? Because they represent only 10.1 millions accordingly with the latest figures from INEGI. AlexCovarrubias ^{( Talk? )} 22:39, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

There is no requirement whatsoever that a Mexican needs to be 'white' to fall within the article topic - or if you think there is, then you'll have to sort this out with Secret killer, who suggests that the article is about any Mexican with any European ancestry. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:49, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

I don't have to find sources that says whether it's notable being European descent. The article is notable based on the guidelines: WP:GNG. If not please tell me. I don't have to find whether a person in academics talks about Mexicans of European descent as a subject. But I can give you an educational site where a Mexican lady talks about her being European descent. Secret killer (talk) 22:56, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

It is entirely possible that this Mexican lady considers that her European ancestry is notable to her. So what? If you could find evidence that it was notable to a significant number of Mexicans, and that such Mexicans considered themselves part of a distinct group because of this, it would be notable in Wikipedia terms. At the moment, the article seems to be about nothing more specific than the intersection of the group 'people of at least partly European ancestry', and the group 'Mexican citizens'. AndyTheGrump (talk) 23:06, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

Maybe, the article show there are Mexicans who are descended from people coming from Europe. In fact, no one has doubt about it. But don't prove all this people constitute a distinct ethnic group. There is no academic sources or official demographic information to prove it. Maybe is possible write an article about Mexicans of India, China, Syria, Israel, Philippines or Siberian origin, but doesn't mean that there is an ethnic group called "Mexican of Asian descent". With Europeans is the same thing: a "criollo" of old Spanish origin is absolutely different from a Slavic, a Scandinavian, a German or a Hungarian, as each of these is to a Greek, a Sicilian or a French. Many different peoples, many different cultures and many different ethnicities, vulgarized under a common continental origin.--GiovBag (talk) 23:03, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

European Mexican is talked about in many sources around the web, and as a distinct group. Almost everything in the other revision was sourced. I do not have to find what number of people in Mexico considers themselves a distinct group. Nowhere in any wikipedia policy says that's required. And where does it say that gives automatic notability?

GivoBAg: It does not matter if Mexicans of European descent is not an ethnic group, which I do have sources that says otherwise. Why don't you go to the European American article and say the same thing? I'll even back you up. It just seems contradictory(if that's the word I'm looking for) of you. Anybody with half a brain know that their is a difference between Europeans. Secret killer (talk) 00:12, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Well, it does matter if they're not an ethnic group... considering this page (at one point) used the template ethnic groups. Bulldog123 04:44, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

If Mexicans of European descent is not an ethnic group, what are they?, a category? (for whom?), a social group? As could be, curly-haired Mexican, Mexican football fans or Mexicans over 15 years. When we can say someone is a Mexican of European descent? Perhaps it's better merge this article in the existing Ethnography of Mexico and Immigration to Mexico.--GiovBag (talk) 09:00, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

In fact in academic publications about Mexico (and all Latin America) the only fairly acceptable category of some kind of European-Mexicans is "Criollo", because it involves some common historical and cultural features, that approaching to an ethnic group definition. But does not include the descendants of European migrations of the nineteenth and twentieth centuries. And this article already exist.--GiovBag (talk) 09:09, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Many encyclopedias and books of mexico do include European migrations. What I don't understand here is the term "ethnic group". It makes no sense. That concept can pose a huge problem. If an African American moved to India and had children there does that mean they can't say they are african american? Does that mean Mexican Americans should no longer have Mexican in the description? In fact should African be removed from African American since most african americans are more closer to whites as an ethnic group? My point to all this is that the term "ethnic group" can mean a wide variety of things. Are European mexicans an "ethnic group"? Maybe, maybe not. But what is for sure is that mexican is a nationality. Not a race. I mean, in reality there is no such thing as race but being a "Latino" does not even fit in the imaginary world of separating people into races.Rman22 (talk) 07:36, 4 April 2011 (UTC)rman22

Maximilian

The Emperor Maximilian is not a Mexican of European descent, he is an Austrian.--79.2.168.44 (talk) 21:24, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Changes proposal

• First. Introduction: A People of European descent in Mexico is a Mexican citizen of predominantly European heritage, isn't good. The People of European descent in Mexico is a Mexican citizen of European heritage, all of them. No matter the degree of mixing. Includes criollos, mestizos and others of European heritage.
• Second. History: As Mexico was colonized by Spain, the majority of white Mexicans are of Spanish descent, or criollos.... Isn't good. Don't exist any group (or category) called "White Mexicans"; in fact, the majority of all Mexicans are of Spanish descent, criollos or not. Most of them are mestizos, but have European origin anyway.
• Third. History: However, many other immigrants (mostly French) also arrived during the Second Mexican Empire,... ; there is any reference of that?, if there is no evidence is better deleted the bracket (mostly French).
• Fourth. History: '"... the majority from Italy, Germany, Ireland, the United Kingdom, Lebanon and Israel.(...) Greeks, Romanians, Portuguese, Armenians, Poles, Russians, Jews, White Americans and White Canadians, and immigrants from other Slavic countries, along with many more Spanish refugees fleeing the Spanish Civil War, also settled in Mexico. Fine, but if there is no references about a significant migration from all these countries, is better delete it from the list. In the same way, instead of talking about White Americans or White Canadians, we should talk about Americans and Canadians of European origin.
• Fifth. Rename the section Region --> Geographical distribution, or some thing like that.
• Sixth. Region: The northern region of mexico has the largest european population and admixture in the country.. Better, The northern region of mexico has the largest population of European origin and admixture in the country.
• Seventh: ... becoming the region with the highest proportion of whites during the Spanish colonial period. Better, ... becoming the region with the highest proportion of Spanish during the colonial period.
• Eighth: Due to the intermixing of Europeans and Amerindians since colonial times, some white Mexicans today may have a degree of Amerindian ancestry and vice versa. Better in the introduction, but corrected. Due to the intermixing of Europeans and Amerindians since colonial times, the majority of Mexicans today have different degrees of European and Amerindian ancestry.
• Nineth: ...though many communities of European immigrants have remained isolated from the rest of the population since their arrival. This is not true, not many, just a few. Is better say ...some communities of European immigrants have remained isolated from the rest of the population since their arrival.
• Tenth: ... immigration from other Latin American countries has also increased and has brought other White Latin Americans to Mexico, especially from Argentina. There is evidences of that? Better say: ... immigration from other Latin American countries has also increased and has brought other Latin Americans of European origin to Mexico, especially from Argentina.
• All the detail of the 1921 census, has no relevance. I think correct refer to it, but almost the only information in the article is that it is absurd.
• The template of mexicans it's OK, but without Maximilian, because he wasn't a Mexican with European origin, he was European.
• With the template, the other photographs have no sense. There is too many.
• If nobody improves this article and considering the information contained in article, maybe would be better merge this article with Immigration to Mexico.
• I hope help. Regards. --Jcestepario (talk) 00:23, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

Some of these changes are minor enough that you could do them yourself, such as renaming the section and removing Maximilian. Why don't you make these changes yourself? Silverseren^C 00:31, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

I have seen some dicussions about this same topic but at White Argentine and now at Argentine of European descent and I would say that there are some racist editors that want to deny or delete the existence of white people in Argentina, Mexico, Peru or Latin America in general. I personally do not agree with the changes above. Also why I cannot edit the article? Do I need to register an account? I was able to edit other articles withour registering an account. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.22.201.93 (talk) 11:44, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

Delete

Considering this proposal for deletion Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/White Latin American and this deletion Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/White Argentine, this article and all these articles about "white latin americans" as ethnic group should be deleted:

1. White Mexicans or euphemistically Mexicans of European descent
2. White Colombian
3. Peruvian of European descent
4. Venezuelan of European descent
5. Argentines of European descent--GiovBag (talk) 10:30, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

Oh man I don't think any of those articles should be deleted. I've seen that you are campainging all over the English Wikipedia to delete articles about white people, but only in Latin America. Why? It's not right. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.22.201.93 (talk) 11:46, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

Sabotage

I don't know if this: [2], [3], [4], [5], [6], [7], [8], [9], [10]; is vandalism or sabotage, but the Templeates shouldn't erased, the reference says another thing and the category "White people" don't exist.--GiovBag (talk) 20:19, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

Neither, read what is vandalism. Tbhotch* ^{۩ ۞} 21:03, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

This page is protected for 5 days. That should give you guys enough time to work out what tags need to be in this article. ~Amatulić (talk) 21:58, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

GiovBag is currently in the proccess of a Sockpuppet Investigation because of his multiple anonymous IP edits in order to avoid being punished, and also because of his newly registered account. It's amaizing that he dares to speak about "sabotage" when the only person sabotaging was him. We all reverted his "sabotage"/vandalism. AlexCovarrubias ^{( Talk? )} 22:01, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

The template [11] was introduced by AndyTheGrump on 2 April 2011, being erased by Alex and Thelmadatter many times without a single explanation. And the problems with the article are always the same. Nobody has presented valid references or reasons to justify retaining this article on these conditions. They just reverse the editions but they don't dialogue. I don't know exactly why, because they are Mexicans?, or live in Mexico?, or they feel white?, or simply they are not agree?. Finally, Alex don't use the old strategy rather than discussing the arguments, discredited the interlocutor. In fact, some of my changes are not sabotage as you can see ... [12], [13]--GiovBag (talk) 22:26, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

Notability, and Synthesis

I see that shortly before this article was protected, the 'notability' template I added was removed, without any attempt to resolve the issues I raised on this talk page earlier, Can I point out the relevant section in WP:GNG:

General notability guideline

If a topic has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject, it is presumed to satisfy the inclusion criteria for a stand-alone article or stand-alone list.

"Significant coverage" means that sources address the subject directly in detail, so no original research is needed to extract the content. Significant coverage is more than a trivial mention but it need not be the main topic of the source material.[1]

"Reliable" means sources need editorial integrity to allow verifiable evaluation of notability, per the reliable source guideline. Sources may encompass published works in all forms and media, and in any language. Availability of secondary sources covering the subject is a good test for notability.

"Sources",[2] for notability purposes, should be secondary sources, as those provide the most objective evidence of notability. The number and nature of reliable sources needed varies depending on the depth of coverage and quality of the sources. Multiple sources are generally expected.[3] Multiple publications from the same author or organization are usually regarded as a single source for the purposes of establishing notability.

"Independent of the subject" excludes works produced by those affiliated with the subject including (but not limited to): self-publicity, advertising, self-published material by the subject, autobiographies, press releases, etc.[4]

"Presumed" means that significant coverage in reliable sources establishes a presumption, not a guarantee, that a subject is suitable for inclusion. Editors may reach a consensus that although a topic meets this criterion, it is not appropriate for a stand-alone article. For example, such an article may violate what Wikipedia is not.[5]

A topic for which this criterion is deemed to have been met by consensus, is usually worthy of notice, and satisfies one of the criteria for a stand-alone article in the encyclopedia. Verifiable facts and content not supported by multiple independent sources may be appropriate for inclusion within another article.

I see no sources given that "address the subject [Mexicans of European descent] directly in detail, so no original research is needed to extract the content", and I can thus only conclude that the article is a synthesis. Without these sources, the article must of course be deleted. Given that I have raised this issue some weeks ago, I could probably begin the AfD process now, but will allow a little time for a response. Meanwhile, can I suggest that the {{notability}} template be reinserted, to draw readers attention to the problem. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:39, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

Under such criteria, you better be inserting notability templates into each and every unsourced article that exists. Since we have had unsourced BLPs in Wikipedia for years, that is not sufficient criteria for determining if something is notable or not. The standard is if such could be found. There are already several sources in the article about several European groups in Mexico such as the Mennonites and Spanish refugees. Could the article be improved? Definitely. But notability is not an issue except to those who beleive that Europeans or whites do not (or better stated, should not) exist in Latin America.Thelmadatter (talk) 23:50, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

So you agree that the article lacks a source which addresses the subject. Good, that clears that up. And I'd appreciate you not making ignorant assertions about my motivations. Oh, and see WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS. AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:04, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

I completely agree with Thelma. We have recently arrived to this article and we do believe it would be great to make an overall improvement, but there's no doubt about it's notability. I also can clearly see a bunch of Wiki-editors, it's very easy to identify them 'cause they edit in a gang-like way, which seem to have enganged in a crusade to erase everything related to white people in Latin America. It's not a secret and it's public (since everything in Wikipedia is). AlexCovarrubias ^{( Talk? )} 00:10, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

Once again, a resort to a personal attack, rather than a response to a request regarding the article. If "there is no doubt about it's notability", can you point out the sources from which this notability is derived? Which sources "address the subject [Mexicans of European descent] directly in detail"? AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:17, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

Whatever the rules may be, practice has NOT been to question notability of an article purely because it lacks citations. There are other templates for that. If European groups in Mexico such as Mennonites in Mexico and Russians in Mexico are notable, then an overall article about those of European descent qualifies as notable as well. Not to mention the fact that several other European or "white" ethnicities are mentioned in the Immigration to Mexico article. I will continue to revert any notability template for these reasons. Other templates, such as the one noting that it lacks citiations would be appropriate. If anyone feels so strongly that this needs to be deleted, we have AfD for that. Anyone care to continue to "report" me as a "vandal" is welcome to do so.Thelmadatter (talk) 17:25, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

So your argument amounts to 'the rules don't count and I'll cite other Wikipedia articles to show why'? An interesting point of view. Of course, this implies that rules are utterly worthless, and we should base decisions on precedent alone... AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:40, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

The Mexicans of European Decent exist in all facets of today's Mexican society, and have, from a modern and historical standpoint, made substantial contributions to the development of the country. Sources given may need some expanding and improving, however thats what tags are for. Race, gender, and religion are always sensitive subjects; we need to keep this in mind during discussions. There is also the problem of systemic bias here on WP, which works against articles pertaining to non-english speaking, developing-world countries and their populations. -- nsaum75 :::^{!Dígame¡‎} 04:43, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

None of that actually addresses the issue, which is whether there are reliable sources which address the article topic in detail. As for 'systematic bias', I agree this is a significant problem on Wikipedia. It is however, unlikely to be solved by allowing articles predicated on a narrow 'racial' interpretation of a much more complex situation to define how the subject is discussed. If anything, the emphasis on 'race', and the unwillingness to deal with other aspects of identity in the context, acts to reinforce the very bias that needs to be countered. Mexico needs to be studied 'as Mexico, not as a place to be compared and contrasted with other places on the grounds of 'race', ethnicity, or other external factors. AndyTheGrump (talk) 05:26, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

With that argument, there should be no articles on any of the various indigenous peoples of Mexico either. I wouldnt agree to that any more than deleting anything about European/white people.Thelmadatter (talk) 21:27, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

AndyTheGrump: When this article comes off protection, if you still feel strongly that this article doesn't belong on Wikipedia, that's what WP:AFD is for. Lacking citations doesn't necessarily imply a problem with notability, so the {{notability}} tag wouldn't be as appropriate as, say, {{refimprove}}. At the same time, the WP:BURDEN is on those who want to retain this article to show through reliable sourcing that it deserves to be retained. ~Amatulić (talk) 22:17, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

This article should remain. There is no reason why it should be removed.Rman22 (talk) 07:39, 4 June 2011 (UTC)rman22

Mennonites from Skandinavia in Chihuahua?

I have seen in various sites in the Internet that there is supposed to be a Skandinavian (Swedish?) Mennonite settlement in Chihuahua called "Nueva Escandinavia". Can anyone tell me where it is? I myself was raised up in a Mennonite settlement in Chihuahua, work for a governmental office that deals with mennonite-related issues and have NEVER EVER heard of anyone from this mythical town, with the exception of a certain "Mennonite rockstar" Martin Thulin who claims to be from there, mainly to get attention. It seems that he hardly knows anything about Mennonite culture and thinks they originate from Skandinavia. Could anyone inform him better? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.244.41.231 (talk) 15:56, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

How come...

there is no longer a number on how many white Mexicans there are? Didn't it used to say like 17 million or so?

Is it because nobody knows or what? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.95.121.62 (talk) 03:40, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

Since 'white' is an arbitrary and contested category, nobody ever 'knew' in any meaningful sense. At one time, the Mexican census attempted to get an 'answer' apparently, but they have since moved on to counting things they can at least attempt to define. It is possible that this article at one time also had an 'answer' to the question, but since it was undoubtedly wrong (since there is no right answer), I expect it has been deleted. AndyTheGrump (talk) 04:21, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

Actually, I have been working offline on a rewrite of this article, which has not been easy because as noted "white" or "of European descent" is not easy to define and yes, has a different connotation in Mexico than in other countries. I put up a really rough draft in my sandbox at User:Thelmadatter/sandbox so you can see what I have done and where I am going with this. There is also rough list of references.Thelmadatter (talk) 06:31, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

Article has been updated. There should be enough information now to show that the article should stay. It still needs some editing work, tho.Thelmadatter (talk) 00:24, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

I think this article is much better written than it was some time ago (back when it was called "white mexicans", it was very grating for us people actually living in Mexico). Most notable is the effort of the writers on trying to put the article in the perspective of Mexico, instead of trying to understand the subject as understood in the United States. In Mexico, being white is less about being part of an ethnic group, and more about having an unusual yet desirable physical characteristic, not unlike being tall, or having attractive features. It is not uncommon to hear "X is whiter than Y", similar to "A is taller than B"; a comment like that probably doesn't make sense under the concept of race or ethnicity. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.23.6.133 (talk) 20:46, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

Arab Mexicans

This redirects to a page on Euro Mexicans, but Middle Eastern people are racially White. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.203.72.142 (talk) 21:21, 8 April 2012 (UTC) Picture 3

(NOTE: Non of these photos were edited at all, these are photos taken by paparazzi.)

Not a major change right? She has that American Indian look. Now lets look at some photo shoots of her:

Mixed Look:
Pic 1
Pic 2
Pic 3

Caucasian Look:
Pic 1
Pic 2
Pic 3
Pic 4
Pic 5
Pic 6 *Looks very Caucasian here*

As you can see, as the years have gone; her look has appeared to be more Caucasian in photoshoots.Sure she does have a very European nose, as well as her eyes but that's all she has that's very Caucasian of her. But what these photo-shoots did is touch it up a bit and bring out her eyes a little more, and bring the skin out a little more lighter, etc.; a common technique used in photo-shoots. Now her family: The only Images I could find are her and her mom, and brother Sami Hayek; but no photos of her father.

Salma & Her Mom

So she has very light skin, and light-brown hair with eyes, but her features don't look very Caucasian, but looks like she has some admixture, probably American Indian blood or so. But sources claim her mother is of Spanish descent; which I think was mislead since the term "Spanish" is pointed it on a lot of people who are not even of Spanish descent (Spaniard). Then we have her brother, who looks very Arabic:

Sami Hayek

But overall, I think she is partially white, but not fully. Maybe from her mother's side, but I'm not too sure about her father's side. Since we don't know her background 100%, we cannot tell for sure if she is a White-Mexican, but judging from past photos and today's and I think it is obvious that she has some admixture in her. I still think she is beautiful nonetheless. Gouryella (talk) 15:18, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Her mom looks white to me! Caucasian features and all, So I don't know what u are talking about! If u think she's got a "dark look" it's from her Lebanese father. I remember seeing an old youtube video a red carpet even in Mexico Salma was there with her father. Her father basically looks like Carlos Slim but very short (he is the same height as Salma) and he wears glasses.

I am from Spain and there are many Spanish and Italian girls who look somewhat like Salma Hayek (even if not as pretty) but I ve not seen any Indian who looks like Salma Hayek.--88.18.150.26 (talk) 00:59, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Regarding the direction on which this article has been going to...

I´ve been reading this article in previous days, and I've noticed several things that are plain wrong with it, the article in general has a bias against Mexico and it sugest "strong racism that makes impossible to progress for Mexico" various times, which is wrong, Mexico is an emerging power, a developed and an industrialized nation (with it's economy being in the top 20 of the largest economies in the world) the article also sugests that there is a power struggle between different races (similar to what happened in United States during the black rights protests etc. don't know how are they called, i'm not an specialist in the subject) in this case being mestizos vs criollos (even a section of the article is named this way, but will rename it eventually) stating that in recent times mestizos have rapt the power to criollos, which is also wrong, Mexico's leaders have always been mestizos (Porfirio Diaz, Venustiano Carranza, Francisco I. Madero) and there have even been leaders that were mostly amerindian (Benito Juarez). In other parts it says that white mexicans prefer to stay away and refuse to integrate with the mexican society, which is also wrong, Mexico is not a racist country, the mestizo identity was instaled to prevent all of this (this can be proved in Dr. Lizcanos study, which states that due the mestizo identity instalation, a large part of biologcally white mexicans are identified as mestizo, this in turn, makes a quantification of all the white mexicans impossible), you can see white actors interacting with mestizo actors all the time, the same in restaurants, in the streets and in political positions on the congress. I, finally, have noticed that all this statements come generally from the same source: a schoolar thesis that is unverifiable (isn't found anywhere on internet) and have never been published by a third party. What I will do on the next days is to correct the infomation based in a studio published by a third party made by a specialist on the subject (The Dr. Lizcano), which refutes the statements made on the other source to, finally, have an article of encyclopedic quality. Czixhc (talk) 03:33, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

I went bold and reverted the article to its original expansion in July 2011. Since then there has been a lot of stuff added or changed with absolutely no citations. Almost all of the citations on this version are from Latin American academic sources, the best you can get when defining something so contentious as race and race relations. BTW, of course there are racial tensions in Mexico, they just manifest themselves differently for different historical reasons.Thelmadatter (talk) 23:02, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

By the way, Ive read Lizcano's study which says no such thing. The political use of a mestizo identity (La Raza) did not eliminate social stratification based on ethnic heritage.Thelmadatter (talk) 23:04, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

I see that you are kind of confused. First: the instalation of the mestizo identity in early XX century and "La raza" movement are two things completely different. Second: Your restored version of the article is even worse than the version from one week ago, it in fact, relies even more in the schoolar thesis titled: "For The Enjoyment of All:” Cosmopolitan Aspirations, Urban Encounters and Class Boundaries in Mexico City" by Alejandra M. Leal Martínez, which is the thesis i was refering in my response above: a schoolar thesis that is unverifiable (isn't found anywhere on internet) and have never been peer reviewed or published by a thir party, therefore this document is an unreliable source and any content on it that result offensive must be removed (even the it's title emanates cynism), if not it's totality. Lizcano's work on the topic is way more proffesional, is peer reviewed and have been published by a third party, if anything the article must rely on this one. And while racism is not unexistant in Mexico, is not as intense as the article sugests it to be, actually Mexico is way more classist than racist.
Finally i went to your userpage and found out that you were born in the United States, and that is, actually, one of the reasons for which this article is inaccurate: because it is written from the perspective of United States instead of a neutral perspective (which is beyond obvious, because this article don't even exists on the spanish wikipedia) and attempts to address the racism on the ways that it is in USA rather than on the ways that it is on Mexico, i'm in no way saying that only mexicans can edit articles related to Mexico, but you must understand that your perspective might not always be the most accurate. All this said i'm taking my revision back, because it actually relies more in reliable sources such as Lizcano's work and less on foreign misconceptions and unreliable sources. Czixhc (talk) 00:24, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

WP:Verifiable does not mean that the source must be on the internet. Only that it has been published and the source is reliable. Dont insult me as to my national origin, please. That is against Wikipedia:No personal attacks. The information from the July 2011 version, reposted yesterday is all from reliable and almost all are from academic papers from Latin America. That is what makes for credibility of Wikipedia articles, not the person writing on Wikipedia.Thelmadatter (talk) 21:56, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

BTW, you are making changes with no citations to back them up and even took out referenced materials. Both are not permitted here. You were right to put the infobox back in however.Thelmadatter (talk) 22:01, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

I read my response again, and i don't believe that i've have ever insulted you in any way, the only thing i told you was that to address racism on mexico in the same perspective that it is in USA is wrong, because the countries are too different culturaly, here the people is more classist than it is racist, i don't see how that aclaration can be an insult. Second as i told you above the schoolar thesis titled: "For The Enjoyment of All:” Cosmopolitan Aspirations, Urban Encounters and Class Boundaries in Mexico City" by Alejandra M. Leal Martínez is unreliable, because it is unverifiable (isn't found anywhere on internet) and have never been peer reviewed or published by a third party (such as a science magazine), and part of it's content can be considered offensive, it in fact would be good if it were removed totally.
Regarding the material that I've removed, it was unsourced statements, such as the sentences like the one stating that european migrants didn't stay in the country, i also removed information related to the afore mentioned controversial thesis because it's unreliable by wiki standards and haven't been piblished bu¿y a third party, finally i removed outdated in formation.
You in the other hand removed information that i added that is entirely verifiable and reliable, such as citations from Lizcano's work, the news article that asserts that Mexico is the country with the largest number of inmigrants in the world, and totally verifiable information regardig the conquest of the aztec empire by Cortes with the help of the Tlaxcaltec tribes. Stop removing that information, you know that it is reliable. Czixhc (talk) 23:47, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

I've merged content from both versions: the one favored by you and the one favored by me, so there can be a middle point. Czixhc (talk) 01:03, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Issues - Improve - Article

There are some issues that I want to address

1) There is no need to post a bunch of pictures of people in the initial template. We should agree that (NOTE: Faux ami; what I wrote does not corresponds to what I intended to mean.) 16 pictures is fairly enough.

2) The template {{Mexicans of European descent}} which was used in the article from 2011 until 2013, was intended to have citations of those who has European descent to furfill the requirement of Verifiability.

3) This article was created in 13 November 2007 as White Mexican but renamed on January 2011 as Mexicans of European descent by GiovBag (talk · contribs) after #Title.

Considering: a) The article refers to Mexican's population of European origin; and b) "White Mexican" is no recognized as an ethnic group, as has been demonstrated. The most logical and neutral thing to do is to rename the article, to Mexican of European descent, or something like that. Regards.--GiovBag (talk) 08:04, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

As you can see above, in this page, there were several debates from January to April 2011 regarding the use of the expression 'White Mexican' (there were consensus to decline/drop it use) which even included the existence of this article (to deleted it or not, due to WP:Original Research).

★ Nacho ★ ★ 08:20, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

So what exactly is the issue to be resolved? I got involved in this article sometime back because of the discussion to delete. there was this idea that there are no "white" people in Mexico and living in Mexico City, I know that is not true. So I went digging and found scholarly articles in Spanish that dealt with the issue. Since then, the article has changed a lot, but I havent done much with it.Thelmadatter (talk) 22:07, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

USA Census somewhat erroneous

The amount of White Mexican-americans is basically the same as the White Mexicans back in Mexico!!! which is total BULL. I'm first generation mexican-american and I believe my mom marked herself and the whole family (9) as white but we are NOT. Since my parents are the head of the household they had to fill it out for the rest of us. The truth is A lot mexicans did not know how to fill it out. I remember a phone call from the Census, the person spoke spanish I could tell he was mexican, ask the race question and It did feel as if you had to Choose ONE. My mom hesitated for a while then said white because she said her dad's family came from Spain. But the fact is you are aloud to Choose more than one race but the person on the phone never explained that. Anyways Two years later I took a DNA test and it came back predominantly Native American also my mom is not of direct european descent but of Amerindian descent cause my haplogroup is A2.--76.213.228.0 (talk) 20:35, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

See WP:NOTFORUM - this article isn't about the failings of the U.S. census system. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:14, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

Classification of White Mexicans

As it is established, under the casta, 7/8ths europeans were considered criollos. So, even under the 1808 Mexican census, in which Mexico was under Spanish colonial rule, this definition would formally hold. There is no evidence to suggest that this definition evolved to exclude 7/8ths europeans later on. This source which cites the same 1808 census (http://www.nacionmulticultural.unam.mx/Portal/Izquierdo/BANCO/Mxmulticultural/Elmestizajeylasculturas-elmestizaje.html), claims that various racial groups including natives assimilated into the mestizo classification, not anything else about 'purity' or the exclusion of 7/8ths europeans.

Furthermore, there is no modern census in Mexico, so there is no formal modern definition of what constitutes as 'white mexican', in any case. However, given the historical precedent, no evidence has been giving that this definition ever formally changed to exclude those of 7/8ths european ancestry. Alon12 (talk) 11:49, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

Article protected until 9 January

The article has been fully protected three days due to a complaint at WP:AN3. See WP:Dispute resolution for some options to consider. Admins won't tolerate a continuing edit war here. Thank you, EdJohnston (talk) 05:07, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Discussion at WP:DRN

There is moderated discussion in progress at WP:Dispute resolution noticeboard#Mexicans of European descent. Anyone who wishes to be added as a party to the discussion is invited to participate. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:59, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

• Note Robert McClenon is acting as moderator in the mentioned discussion and had not proposed it as I had originally presumed. GregKaye 10:45, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

Why are Americans included?

In the Infobox, why are statistics for Mexican-Americans included? The opening sentence: "European Mexicans or White Mexicans are Mexican citizens of European descent." While some Mexican-Americans may have Mexican citizenship, definitely not all. Thus including the statistics is problematic. Xochiztli (talk) 03:02, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

Requested move 7 January 2015

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. Majority hold that the proposed title is not appropriate, for valid reasons. (non-admin closure)  — Amakuru (talk) 21:23, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

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Mexicans of European descent → White Mexicans – Consistency with other articles on persons of European descent in the New World, such as White Americans and White Brazilians. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:53, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose - "White Mexican" could refer to United States/Canada "White Mexicans". White Mexicans don't mean just European Mexican. I know this because I am Mexican myself. CookieMonster755 (talk) 05:17, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

 Comment: This page was named as Mexicans of European descent because it was considered Original Research to use the label "white" when they are not legally recognized as an ethnic group in Mexico. ★ Nacho ★ (Talk page) ★ 04:53, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

•  Comment: the Spanish version of this page is titled es:Mexicanos de origen europeo. This may be a copy of the English page but the title remains the same. I suggest the nom or other highlights this discussion at Wikiproject:Mexico or similar location. GregKaye 10:01, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

• Support - "Mexicans of European descent" is not a specific enough to be the title for this article, the majority of the Mexican population (often including Amerindian tribes) has European descent. With a title like "White Mexican" readers know exactly what we are talking about. I don't think that "White Mexican" could refer to United States/Canada "White Mexicans" is a real argument to oppose the change, because Mexican diaspora is mentioned in this article. The "it is considered original research to name the page White Mexicans because they aren't recognized by the government" is not a consistent argument either, because for example, the figures of CIA world factbook and Encyclopedia Britannica that are used on this article aren't recognized by the Mexican government, yet I see them used here, if we are going to write the article based on what the Mexican government officialy recognizes for starters these sources shouldn't be here. Aergas (talk) 21:29, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose It is neither necessary or possible to standardize articles on racial por ethnic categorization across countries. Most countries do not use the US based system of racial classification. An article about White Mexicans would be OR as there is no literature about that topic, and there is no population in Mexico who are defined or described as such. The CIA factbook or the EB are not reliable sources about this topic since they contradict the entire body of reliably published literature and impose externally defined categories unto an area where they have no currency. In Brazil there is an actual category of brancos whites, but this is not the case in Mexico.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 16:40, 13 January 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose, per Maunus. Imposing invalid external categorisations regarding ethnicity is not only dubious on WP:OR grounds, but just plain unencyclopaedic. And as for the CIA factbook, its 'ethnic' data is the most appalling hodgepodge of confused misclassifications one could ever have the misfortune to come across. Article titles should be based on reliable sources actually discussing the subject, not on random junk from elsewhere. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:50, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Genetic Admixture of Foreign Nationalities such as Americans and Spaniards

The referenced data in the article demonstrates that when compared directly, Spaniards are found to be specifically less homogeneous than White Americans. Spaniards are the overwhelming majority of 'Mexicans of European Descent'. This is not a surprise considering the legacy of north african and near eastern influences in historical southern europe and iberia in particular.. There are many historical references for this which document the events: . This section has been created to discuss the inclusion of data regarding the Genetic Admixture of Foreign Nationalities such as Americans and Spaniards.

Alon12 (talk) 20:34, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

I notice that you misinterpreted the source presented on the Biomed article for White Americans to begin with [14], you wrote that to be white White Americans must be at least 9/10 white on admixture, when in reality the 90% white is the average of all the White Americans, and the study is clear, and shows in the graphics that there are White Americans who are more than 1/4 non white [15], you are misinterpreting the sources and almost lying, that' why I removed it. Aergas (talk) 21:05, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

That graphic demonstrates the amount of Hispanic Americans who are misclassified, not vice versa, so you are misinterpreting that.[16]

"The Hispanic-American group seems to be more heterogeneous than the remaining groups with fairly large number of self-identified Hispanics being assigned to the same cluster as the self-identified European-Americans."

Alon12 (talk) 21:12, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

That means that Hispanic Americans overlap with White Americans, can't you understand the chart? Aergas (talk) 21:15, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

And? That does not implying 'white americans' are misclassified, as you say, it shows hispanic-americans are misclassified, not vice versa. That is the logic. Alon12 (talk) 21:26, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

04:23, 17 January 2015 (UTC)~

More Data: Here is more details on the famous study called 'Comparing self-reported ethnicity to genetic background measures in the context of the Multi-Ethnic Study of Atherosclerosis' (MESA)'. If you look at this study. This study only conducts research on a subset of the cited MESA population set. Those who were effected with LVH, and it is proven that blacks and hispanics were over TWICE as likely to have LVH than 'white americans'.[17] "We used ancestry informative markers (AIMs) and phenotypic data on left-ventricular hypertrophy (LVH) collected in the context of the Multi-Ethnic Study of Atherosclerosis (MESA) to address two related questions: ".

The funny thing is that LVH is specifically associated more with Hispanic Americans and African Americans, from the same MESA group of studies. [18]

You can see the graphic here, blacks and mexicans and caribbean hispanics are twice as likely to have this condition as 'whites': [19]

"All Hispanic subgroups also had a higher prevalence of concentric and eccentric hypertrophy compared to non-Hispanic whites (P<0.001)."

" In age-sex adjusted models, Caribbean-origin Hispanics and Mexican-origin Hispanics had twice the odds of having LVH as non-Hispanic whites."

Another study showing similar LVH liklihood being higher for african-americans:

[20] "). African Americans and males had significantly greater left ventricular mass (P�0.001) than did European Americans and females, respectively"

Even comparing the african-american population you see greater admixture, of the african element, despite most studies demonstrating african-americans to have 79% african admixture, not 84%.[21], this study, for instance, also shows 79% african ancestry when measured in the general population [22], here is yet another study:

[23]

'Self-identified African Americans, on average, had a mean African ancestry of 76%, only 21% were derived from white ancestry, and <3% were derived from Native American populations. '

yet another NEWER article, from the same author of the one who also published 86%:

[24]

Even the author now claims 79-80% is more accurate for the general popultion:

" The average proportion of genome-wide African ancestry in the combined sample was 80% (SD 11.5%). When the sample was split based on a CAC cutpoint of 10 H.U., the average proportion of African ancestry was 79% for individuals with CAC ≥10 and 81% for CAC <10 (p-value=0.002). "

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3361899/ "Among African Americans, mean±SD ancestry was estimated as 79.9% "

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2795643/ African ancestry was 79.9%±15.9%

I will talk more about these other last 2 next, so you see out of all studies, this is the only only which shows african americans to have 84%, not 79% ancestry, even when measured against studies that take the genetic population and do not measure a particular medical condition, specifically significantly more prevalent in hispanics and blacks.

This is the original study on the entire subject, you see many factors contained as being measured:

[25]

"Examples of these measures are echocardiographically measured left ventricular mass and carotid ultrasonographic measurement of arterial wall thickness, which have been used in the Framingham Study (1), the Cardiovascular Health Study (2), and the Atherosclerosis Risk in Communities Study (3) to detect underlying subclinical disease and predict clinical CVD (4). Recent developments in the measurement of cardiovascular structure and function make imaging of other aspects of subclinical disease and measuring functional aspects of the vasculature in population-based studies feasible and accurate, providing specific, detailed information that relates more directly to pathology. Coronary calcium is a specific marker of atherosclerosis (5) that has been included in the Coronary Artery Risk Development in Young Adults Study (6) and in subgroups in the Atherosclerosis Risk in Communities Study and the Cardiovascular Health Study (7). " " Roles have been suggested for a host of other factors in the etiology of atherosclerosis and of clinical events (34), including hemostatic factors"

Here is the genetic admixture data on the same data-set with more balanced data. This is ancestry estimated using both coronary artery calcium and common and internal carotid intima media thickness.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2795643/

" In general, Caucasians of Northern European descent such as those in MESA and Chinese groups show very little admixture (<5%) with other populations,"

". It was also confirmed that the MESA Caucasians had greater than 97% European ancestry on average, and thus were acceptable for use as a pseudo-ancestral group. Supplemental Table 2 contains further details."

Here is another study confirming the correlations between the 2 methods used in the above study in the context of race, showing it to have an offsetting relationship, thus balancing out racial biases, for more accurate estimates:[PEA = predominant european ancestry]

http://circ.ahajournals.org/content/130/Suppl_2/A16724.abstract

"Participants with low PEA (≤7%) had lower CAC prevalence [PR = 0.50 (95% CI: 0.31, 0.80)] and those with high PEA (≥ 30%) had lower cCIMT [mean difference = -0.035 (95% CI:-0.06, -0.01)] compared to those with the median PEA. "

Here is the data on another factor, in which 'white americans' showed very little admixture, less than 5%, despite hemostatic factors actually being higher in those with more african ancestry:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3361899/

"Greater African ancestry among African Americans and Hispanics was associated with higher levels of several hemostatic factors, notably fibrinogen"

" In general, Chinese groups and Caucasians of Northern European descent, such as those in MESA, show very little admixture with other populations (<5%); "

Even when compared with the black and hispanic biased LVH dataset, (thus more likely to pick up inviduals with higher admixture than the typical admixture found in the general population) which is specifically 50% in higher liklihood for blacks and hispanics, the african ancestry at max is 0.02, which is still less than that of spaniards. So, the admixture for 'white americans' is actually far less than 11%, it is 3%, while 'white americans' otherwise maintain 97% european admixture, while Spaniards alone maintain 2.4% sub-saharan african ancestry, and 20-30% north african + near eastern ancestry. Alon12 (talk) 04:23, 17 January 2015 (UTC)