Talk:Western culture

Germanic influence

I get that ancient greece and and ancient rome laid the foundations for western culture, but in what way has germanic culture strongly influenced western culture, as to be on par with greco-roman culture? I know there are minor influences, but I fail to see how it strongly influenced western culture, apart from the romanticized and mostly fictionalized vikings in pop culture. 90.231.171.26 (talk) 22:31, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

Probably the biggest impact would be the Franks, Charlamange and the Carolingian dynasty which setup western Europe as we know it. But good question on what cultural contribution that was new, not sure what that is. Elias (talk) 23:04, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

I'd argue that the Germanic part is rather underplayed in this article at the moment. Just think of its influence on law, feudalism and kingship, just to name three. UlyssorZebra (talk) 06:18, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

What is considered psychologically normal in western civilization is defined by what is considered psychologically normal to ethnic germanic people. If romans and greeks still had control over western civilization, what is considered psychologically normal would be different from what it is in today's world. An example is that back in roman and greek times raping women was considered normal and in today's world raping women is not considered normal. In general, before the germanic invasion behaving like a psychopath was considered normal and after the germanic invasion behaving like a psychopath became considered psychologically abnormal over time. 50.45.40.204 (talk) 17:18, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

I think you might be suffering from delusional disorder 90.231.171.26 (talk) 00:00, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

Scope of Hellenism unclear

A cornerstone of Western thought, beginning in ancient Greece and continuing through the Middle Ages and Renaissance, is the idea of rationalism in various spheres of life developed by Hellenistic philosophy, scholasticism and humanism.

Does 'Hellenistic' modify just the first item, or all three? Should not be left to the reader to arbitrate this. Those buffing up the yada yada they've heard a thousand times before will make a reasonable guess, the rest won't.

Degree of difficulty: scholasticism dates back to Aristotle, but there's no page on Wikipedia titled "classical humanism". — MaxEnt 22:40, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

Listicle city

For the record, here's what the lead looks like after I expanding it into note form for my own personal Wiki:

Western culture is the Western heritage of:

• social norms
• ethical values
• traditional customs
• belief systems
• political systems
• artifacts and technologies

The term applies beyond Europe to

• countries
• cultures

whose histories are strongly connected to Europe by:

• immigration
• colonization
• influence

Western culture is most strongly influenced by:

• Greco-Roman culture
• Christian culture
• Germanic culture — to some extent

The expansion of Greek culture into the Hellenistic world of the eastern Mediterranean led to:

• synthesis between Greek and Near-Eastern cultures
• major advances:
  • literature
  • engineering
  • science
• cultural foundation for the expansion of:
  • early Christianity
  • Greek New Testament

This period overlapped with and was followed by the Roman Empire, which made key contributions in:

• law
• government
• engineering
• political organization

Western culture is characterized by a host of themes and traditions:

• artistic
• philosophic
• literary
• legal

Christianity has played a prominent role in the shaping of Western civilization since at least the 4th century

• primarily the Roman Catholic Church
• later Protestantism

Judaism was also influential.

A cornerstone of Western thought

• beginning in ancient Greece
• continuing through the Middle Ages
• continuing through the Renaissance

is the idea of rationalism in various spheres of life developed by:

• Hellenistic philosophy
• scholasticism
• humanism

Empiricism later gave rise to the:

• scientific method
• scientific revolution
• Age of Enlightenment

Western culture continued to develop with:

• Christianization of European society during the Middle Ages
• reforms triggered by the medieval renaissances
• influence of the Islamic world via Al-Andalus and Sicily, including:
  • • transfer of technology from the East
  • Latin translations of Arabic texts on science and philosophy
    • by Greek and Hellenic-influenced Islamic philosophers
• Italian Renaissance

During the Italian Renaissance, Greek scholars fleeing the fall of the Byzantine Empire after the Ottoman conquest of Constantinople brought classical traditions and philosophy.

This major change for non-Western countries and their people saw a development in modernization in those countries.

Medieval Christianity is credited with creating:

• modern university
• modern hospital system
• scientific economics
• natural law
  • would later influence the creation of international law

Christianity played a role in ending practices common among European pagans at the time, such as:

• human sacrifice
• infanticide

European culture developed with a complex range of:

• philosophy
• medieval scholasticism
• mysticism
• Christian humanism
• secular humanism

Rational thinking developed through a long age of change and formation:

• experiments of the Enlightenment
• breakthroughs in the sciences

Tendencies that have come to define modern Western societies include:

• concept of political pluralism
• individualism
• prominent subcultures or countercultures — such as New Age movements
• increasing cultural syncretism
  • resulting from
  • globalization
  • human migration

Bleh! These relentless bullet lists are never my favourite article leads. Apart from the bullets, we have one good sentence:

"During the Italian Renaissance, Greek scholars fleeing the fall of the Byzantine Empire after the Ottoman conquest of Constantinople brought classical traditions and philosophy."

But that wasn't even a self-contained sentence until I split it off from an overgrown parental bullet list.

I'm not proposing any specific change here. I'm strictly on the "is" side of the is–ought problem. But maybe someone else will look at this and come up with an editorial intervention that lessens the listicle overage. — MaxEnt 22:57, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

Suggested Edit

I would suggest changing "Western civilization, broadly defined, finds its roots in the foundations laid by Greco-Roman civilization, and the tenets of Western Christianity. It has also been significantly influenced by societal influences from Germanic peoples, Celts and Iberians, and by wider Judeo-Christian values" to "Western civilization, broadly defined, originates from the combined foundations of Greco-Roman civilization and Western Christianity. Western culture also comprises and has been influenced by other (sub-)cultures, such as Germanic, Celtic, West Slavic, Jewish, and further, non-Indo-European cultures such as the Etruscans and Ancient Iberians." This adds the West Slavs and Etruscans, whose influence matches, if not exceeds, that of the Ancient Iberians, whose influence is minimal. Further, the language becomes clearer and more definitive without changing the substance of what is being said. 2603:7000:9900:3000:ED6D:4592:2838:C921 (talk) 03:33, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

Only Hutington's biased opinion on what's Western

The topic uses only Huntington as a reference, with his extremely vague assumptions. Both these maps don't show Brazil and Argentina as Western countries, LOL (it shows doubt, neither denies or confirms). Both countries have a Latin tradition originated in Rome, the roots of Western civilization and even more Roman and Romance character in its societies than England or the USA. These countries also have very conservative cultures, with Christianity still strong, Roman-Germanic code of law, early metrification, and both cultures are as European as those of Portugal and Spain. To further reinforcement on how the topic uses opinative assumptions from a person that never visited most of these countries; it has the absurdity of not labeling as Western some countries that are more Western in any sense than the United States. 2804:389:C03A:AF8B:0:3B:6C36:2701 (talk) 12:47, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

The roots of western civilization are in Ancient Greece and then passed to Rome. Rome isnt the birthplace of western civilization. For sure this map its just an opinion of a person that dont even know history! So in this map there isnt even Greece in the western world that totally created the western world! I asked from the editors to change these maps but no one listens! They just put whatever they want! And im wondering too why wikipedia uses this specific map that its just someone's opinion and not a valid map from official sites! Alikakii (talk) 00:09, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

Would help an immense amount if you cite additional sources that provide more well rounded definitions. This article isn't very good, but it's not very helpful to act as if that's our fault collectively—most editors with this page on their watchlist are likely not previously major contributors. Remsense ‥ 论 00:13, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

Well i just asked you to remove the maps! The rest of the article is correct. And its funny to say that you are waiting someone to give you other sources for maps. As you found this map you can easily find and another valid map. I just checked on the internet and i found many other maps. You cant find them? You are so many editors here! Also if you couldnt do a correct work you shouldnt start this page from the start. Its like you tell me that you just checked for a map for this article and just put whatever map you found with the first try without even search more. Alikakii (talk) 00:47, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

I think Huntington is full of it myself, to be clear. I'd like to remove the maps too, so I suppose I'll go ahead and do so. Remsense ‥ 论 00:49, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

@William M. Connolley, I will also ask that you consider how marginal Huntington's perspective is before re-adding. Remsense ‥ 论 00:56, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

Thank you! Finally someone who understands! Also if you remove here the maps you should go to the western culture page too there are the same maps exactly. You have to remove and these maps. Alikakii (talk) 00:58, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

I'll wait to discuss with anyone who disagrees—it's better to move slow on these things rather than make the dispute messier over a larger number of pages. Remsense ‥ 论 01:02, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

I told you wrong page before. Here is the western culture. I meant to go to the western world page too there are the same maps and 3 people there also disagree with the maps! Well i want to explain to you that this map is a personal opinion so how this map can be valid? These information sites shouldnt be neutral?? These articles should be based on facts and the history books. Alikakii (talk) 01:16, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

Reread what I said. I'm giving others a chance to object to it being removed here before I do the same across other pages, lest it all gets re-added at once. I'd rather not deal with that. We work via consensus here, and don't push through our program above the objections of others, even if we're totally right. If it's worth changing, it's worth changing carefully. Remsense ‥ 论 01:30, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

But there are people who disagree for the maps too and in the western world page! Alikakii (talk) 01:33, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

Alas. Remsense ‥ 论 01:33, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

Also you do understand that when you write in the article that the birthplace of western civilization, western culture and the west generally is Greece and then put the opposite maps its funny really. Alikakii (talk) 01:31, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

Again, stop saying "you" as if I wrote it. I didn't. I'm not responsible for every article as it is, but I do want to make important articles better, that's why I'm engaging here, so please relax. Remsense ‥ 论 01:32, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

No im not saying about you im talking for all the editors generally! Alikakii (talk) 01:35, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

Well sorry fo being a little mad. At least you are helping. The other editors didnt even care about it! Alikakii (talk) 01:43, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

But again you have to check and the western world page too. Alikakii (talk) 01:45, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

Because whats the difference between the western world and the western culture its the same thing! Why to delete these maps here and not delete exactly the same maps in the western world page? Its not logical! I cant understand the way you think all the editors on wikipedia. Its exactly the same thing and the same maps! Just check the talk page there. Alikakii (talk) 01:55, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

World, civilization, culture

See Talk:Western_world#World,_culture,_civilization and Wikipedia:Redirects_for_discussion/Log/2025_January_4#Western_civilization for discussion about (re)naming and (re)targeting some related terms (Western world, Western civilization). _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 05:45, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

"Western Civilization" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Western Civilization has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2025 January 4 §  until a consensus is reached. Rotideypoc41352 (talk · contribs) 19:26, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Civilization and culture are different things

They have distinct meanings and implications. Here’s a detailed breakdown of their differences:

Civilization

   Definition:
       Civilization refers to a complex society characterized by the development of urban centers, social stratification, government, and cultural and technological advancements.

   Components:
       Political Organization: Civilizations typically have structured governments and legal systems.
       Economic Systems: They often involve complex economic systems including trade, agriculture, and industry.
       Infrastructure: Civilizations develop infrastructure such as roads, buildings, and communication systems.
       Social Structure: They have a hierarchical social structure, often with distinct classes (nobility, merchants, laborers).
       Writing and Record Keeping: The development of written language is a key marker of civilization.

   Scale:
       Civilizations can span large geographical areas and encompass multiple cultures and ethnic groups.

   Examples:
       Ancient Egypt, Mesopotamia, the Roman Empire, and modern nations like the United States and China.

Culture

   Definition:
       Culture refers to the shared beliefs, values, customs, behaviors, and artifacts that characterize a group or society.

   Components:
       Language: The primary means of communication and expression within a culture.
       Religion: Spiritual beliefs and practices that shape moral values and community activities.
       Traditions and Customs: Rituals, festivals, and practices that are passed down through generations.
       Art and Aesthetics: Music, dance, visual arts, and literature that reflect the identity of a group.
       Social Norms: Unwritten rules that govern behavior and interactions within the community.

   Scale:
       Culture can exist on multiple levels, from small communities to entire nations, and can vary widely even within a single civilization.

   Examples:
       The cultural practices of Indigenous peoples, the culinary traditions of Italy, or the artistic movements of the Renaissance.

Summary of Differences

   Scope: Civilization is a broader concept encompassing political, economic, and social structures, while culture focuses on the beliefs, practices, and expressions of a group.
   Function: Civilizations provide the framework for societal organization, whereas culture enriches human experience and identity within that framework.
   Interdependence: While distinct, culture often flourishes within civilizations, and a civilization can contain multiple cultures that contribute to its identity.

In summary, civilization is the complex societal structure that provides order and organization, while culture represents the rich tapestry of human expression and social practices within that structure.--Mandliners (talk) 08:00, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

civilization is the highest stage of (current) social development and material culture, in which the socio-economic formation, according to its needs, selectively and modifying the achievements of previous ages, incorporates them, perfects and develops them further. In this respect, civilisation is often used as a synonym for society. The origin of the word comes from the Latin civilis / civitas, meaning city, which reached its current form in 16th century French ("civilisation").

The concept of civilisation appears in a work by Erasmus of Rotterdam in De civilitate morum puerilium, published in 1530.[2] The meaning of the term he introduced can be most loosely defined as 'good manners'.

In a broader sense, it means social, economic, intellectual cultivation and education. In other contexts, in contrast to intellectual culture, it is understood only as the material culture, tools and techniques of a society.--Mandliners (talk) 16:02, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

What actionable edits to this article do you want to propose through this lengthy comparison? Arnoutf (talk) 19:30, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

I don't presume to speak for Mandliners, but charitably I can see one possibility. The synonymous usage of "culture" and "civilization" throughout the article leads to some minor issues in the clarity of the prose.

For instance, the lede (which I heavily edited/revised a while ago), reads:

Historically, scholars have closely associated the idea of Western culture with the classical era of Greco-Roman antiquity. However, scholars also acknowledge that other cultures, like Ancient Egypt, the Phoenician city-states, and several Near-Eastern cultures stimulated and influenced it. The Hellenistic period also promoted syncretism, blending Greek, Roman, and Jewish cultures. Major advances in literature, engineering, and science shaped the Hellenistic Jewish culture from which the earliest Christians and the Greek New Testament emerged.

It basically says, "Western culture" includes a bunch of other cultures. (There's probably other cultures we need to better incorporate discussion of in the article, like Germanic and Slavic cultures.) So there are two uses of "culture" here. There's a broader sense and a more narrow one. For most readers, this will not be a problem. For scholars, this is probably annoying. If we treat "civilization" as the broader term, there's a bit more clarity as to the fact that it is syncretically composed of and influenced by multiple distinct cultures.

It would also allow us to set a standard for the article that would help clarify other parts of the article. For instance, in the history section, there's this sentence: "From the time of Alexander the Great (the Hellenistic period), Greek civilization came in contact with Jewish civilization." It maybe would be clearer to write it, "From the time of Alexander the Great (the Hellenistic period), Greek culture came in contact with Jewish culture.

Distinguishing these terms in a precise manner is likely familiar to scholars working in the relevant fields and I don't think it would be overly difficult to incorporate the standard for this article.

However, if we follow the logic, we might say that this article ought to be titled "Western civilization" rather than culture... and editors in the past have opposed it. Brandon S Killen (talk) 03:40, 28 January 2025 (UTC)