Talk:Wertheimer

Change from set index to disambiguation

@Kusma, Jochen Burghardt, and Sgeureka: I have pinged editors with multiple edits on this page & who have been active within the past few weeks. I will also put notices on WT:APO, WT:WPDAB & WT:SIA.

On ten other language Wikipedias, Wertheimer (Q2563581) is a disambiguation page. Since the name is of German & Jewish origin, I believe we should follow the examples of Wertheimer & ורטהיימר. I propose that we change this to a disambiguation page & add the following to the See also section:

Wertheimer portraits – Painting series by John Singer Sargent

and possibly

Wertheimer House [de]

Peaceray (talk) 19:41, 4 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

My take: Both of your proposed additions fall under WP:PARTIAL and shouldn't be listed on a dab page. So there remain only surnames, and therefore the page should remain categorized as such. – sgeureka ^t•c 20:37, 4 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Peaceray: The current page with the current content can not be a dab and can only be a list of nameholders. The German Wikipedia does not have the same conventions as the English Wikipedia in this area. Lists of nameholders are wp:Set index articles (a guideline that does not exist on the German Wikipedia), are explicitly listed as such in Wikipedia:Set index articles#Other types of SIAs, and are marked as such using specific templates including Template:Surname (which likewise do not exist on the German Wikipedia). These set index articles are called anthroponymy list articles. In the MoS section with the shortcut MOS:DABNAME (nothing similar to which exists on the German Wikipedia, for example in de:Wikipedia:Formatvorlage Begriffsklärung) it is stated: People who have the ambiguous term as surname or given name should be listed in the main disambiguation list of the disambiguation page only if they are frequently referred to simply by the single name (e.g., Abraham Lincoln on Lincoln). ... There are two options for listing name-holders. A list of name-holders can be included in a People section of the page [Comment: Can be included only if the stated criterion is met—the person is frequently referred to simply by their single name, i.e., James Henry is known as simply James, such as King James, or as simply Henry, such as François-Louis Henry, or multiple people named James Henry exist—all of these are dabs]. For longer lists (of 12 or more entries), and as an alternative for a short list, an anthroponymy list article can be created and linked from the disambiguation page. [Comment: The previously stated criterion, which was stated for dab pages, does not apply to anthroponymy list articles because per WP:SETNOTDAB: "A set index article is not a disambiguation page". Therefore we have James (given name), from which the List of people named James is spun out, and Henry (surname)—the latter two are not disambiguation pages, they are set index articles of the anthroponymy list type, and those Henries and those Jameses are not generally co-ambiguous, and to the extent that they are they should be individually listed in respective disambiguation pages, so Henry (surname) does not list individual James Henries but links to the disambiguation page James Henry.]. The same MoS page says: Anthroponymy articles follow their own style standards. There, the MoS directs to the Wikiproject Anthroponymy WP:PROJPAGE—Wikipedia:WikiProject Anthroponymy/Standards, which further elaborates how anthroponymy list articles should be formatted. All of this is additionally explained in a particularly clear way in Wikipedia:Disambiguation which says: We reasonably expect to see Abraham Lincoln at Lincoln (disambiguation), but very few sources would refer to the waltz composer Harry J. Lincoln by an unqualified "Lincoln", so he is listed only at the Lincoln (surname) anthroponymy article. This is even more widespread for first names—many highly notable people are called Herb, but typing in Herb gets you an article on plants. Herb (disambiguation) does not even list any people named "Herb", but instead links to Herb (surname) [an anthroponymy list article] and Herb (given name) [also an anthroponymy list article], where articles on people named "Herb" are listed. Nothing like this exists on the German Wikipedia. We simply have it more finely tuned. —Alalch E. 23:22, 4 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Sgeureka and Alalch E.: thank you for your explanations.

I then ask would it be more appropriate to rename this set index article to Wetheimer (surname) & then create a disambiguation page Wetheimer as we do with Grünewald (surname) & Grunewald, Ray (surname) & Ray, Cooper (surname) & Cooper, Gill (name) & Gill, Leclerc (surname) & Leclerc, Bora (surname) & Bora, & etc.

Alternately, there is Berger & Berger (disambiguation),

And yet another variation is Vaughan (surname) & Vaughan (disambiguation). Peaceray (talk) 23:57, 4 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, generally that'd be great provided that there's a reason to have a dab page. For the new dab page which would exist at this page's then-former name to be sustainable, we would want entries to populate it. I'm not aware of any valid entries in addition to Wertheimer (surname). As sgeureka pointed out, but you yourself also strongly implied the same when you said that your suggested additions should go to the "See also" section as opposed to the core portion of the page, Wertheimer portraits and Wertheimer House are partial title matches and are therefore not valid dab entries. The Berger dab is pretty bad. I'd borderline AfD it (Berger (grape) *maybe* saves it). The Vaughan dab is great and has many valid entries. —Alalch E. 00:17, 5 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Keep as it is; contains only surnames. Regarding intirwikis, many of them were created by a bot and erroneous. I keep fixing them, for example de:Wertheimer clearly says "Wertheimer ist der Familienname folgender Personen:" --Altenmann >talk 04:19, 5 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]