Talk:Weaponization of antisemitism/Archive 5

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Adding POV and POV LEDE tags

Per conversations here, and here, there are numerous indications this article may have fundamental POV issues - specifically WP:BIASED. WP:POVNAME, WP:NDESC, WP:NEO, WP:COMMONNAME, WP:VOICE, WP;OR and WP:POVTITLE, among others - in both article title as well as lede - that require address.

Firstly, "Weaponization of Antisemitism" in scholarly sources does not squarely refer to what is described in the lede (and in half of cases, is merely citing accusations and supposition in activistic discourse) The insistence that the description of the lede is the *only* meaning is an effective steamrolling of pre-existing discourse and terminology that pre-dates the definition that this article's creator (and principal contributor) insists it is.

The traditional academic usage of variations of the phrase (particularly "antisemitism as a weapon"), refers to the historical use of antisemitism as a tool of intimidation and oppression against Jews by antagonstic parties and governments.

And while more modern usage has tilted toward good/bad faith accusations in discourse surrounding the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, it is fundamentally an activist accusation by one side of a conflict that feels - whether valid or not - that accusations of antisemitism are being used as a tool to suppress criticism. Invocation of the phrase is almost entirely on partisan grounds, and it has found little to no neutral adoption by either neutral RS or in the scholarly/academic community.

This is naturally connected to the recent renaming, informal poll, and RM conversations, but edits should be undertaken asap to rectify these issues, especially in the lede and body/structure of the article so long as the article's current title remains.

At the very minimum, the lede should be re-written to an umbrella that more generally covers matters surrounding the invocation and instrumentalization of antisemitism in public and political discourse, whether it be "weaponization" of antisemitic tropes against Jewish populations for the purposes of intimidation and violence, *or* supposed "weaponization" of antisemitism accusations by pro-Israel advocates for the purpose of stifling discourse and critique of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, or any other instances or contexts in which antisemitism has been "wielded" for purposes of influence. Mistamystery (talk) 01:33, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

More pointless tagging, we have already had these discussions on multiple occasions, see Tagging in the archives, They led to nothing then and that is where it will lead now.

And two neutrality tags for the same article are unnecessary so I removed the duplicated one. Selfstudier (talk) 10:34, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Sorry but I have no idea what you are trying to say with this wall of text. Can you please provide specific and concise bullet points and examples quoting in the article what you believe to be biased information/phrasing? Makeandtoss (talk) 13:13, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Mistamystery wants to expand the page content to include entirely different things from what the page is about. Page content is defined by the lead, not by semantic dissection of the title. The stuff MM wants to include is properly served by antisemitism and the many other articles on antisemitism and doesn't belong here. The correct response is to change the title to match the lead better, not to dilute the content by inserting irrelevancies on the grounds that they just happen to use the same two words. Zero^talk 14:17, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

This is fundamentally a WP:OR and WP:OWNERSHIP concern. This page is principally the authorship of a single editor, and they do not get to decide what a phrase (whose use significantly precedes the definition this page currently insists it solely is) only means just because they flooded the edit with content backing up only one of the interpretations in use before anyone else could come in and insist on a balanced approach. Mistamystery (talk) 01:16, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

This is fundamentally a WP:OR and WP:OWNERSHIP concern No-one owns the page and the creator is not even editing that much, what this is about is saying anything at all to try and force through an agenda without any consensus. Selfstudier (talk) 09:56, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia creates articles about encyclopedically worthy topics; it does not create entries on terms. If a term can refer to two different topics, it needs disambiguating in a titular context. Trying to make the term the topic and having a page about multiple ambiguous meanings is the opposite of the purpose here. Iskandar323 (talk) 11:08, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes, tags should be added. Zanahary (talk) 15:18, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I see some more useless tags have again been added, presumably trying to set some sort of record for the most tags added to an article in the shortest space of time since creation. Selfstudier (talk) 15:53, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

"Israeli historian Benny Morris described John Bagot Glubb as an early example of a tendency to brand critics of the Israeli government as antisemitic." This one being particularly useless. Selfstudier (talk) 15:56, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Removed. And "sic" tags are used to indicate that an error is in the original, not to indicate that some editor doesn't like a common spelling. Zero^talk 01:06, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

I don't see how that's useless. Whose tendency? Not Glubb's. And please be civil. Zanahary (talk) 05:31, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

Please stop calling other editors "useless" Selfstudier. Whose tendency is Morris talking about? If it's obvious, just insert it and remove the tag; if it's not obvious, maybe the sentence is problematic. BobFromBrockley (talk) 11:59, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

I didn't call another editor useless, I called their edits useless, deservedly so. Selfstudier (talk) 12:17, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

Making an effort to address tags and achieve a consensus usually improves an article. Llll5032 (talk) 03:53, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

True. And adding useless tags usually wastes the time of everyone. Zero^talk 09:23, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

The tags are not useless in my view; they reflect to our readers, the fact that there is currently an unresolved neutrality dispute. Marokwitz (talk) 15:10, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

The complaint is about the title and always has been, (un)fortunately there isn't a tag for that. Selfstudier (talk) 15:17, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

The complaint is about both the title as well as an inappropriately narrow and exclusionary article scope in the lede. There are two separate issues here, which is why there were two tags placed. Mistamystery (talk) 15:31, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

Both covering neutrality, ie one useless so removed. There are no tags for titles, one does an RM in that case. Selfstudier (talk) 15:46, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

Do we really have to go through this rigmarole every time a page is created that some users pretty clearly JDL? And here when there is already an RM in the works to rectify the perceived issue? It is very hard to assume good faith when the attempt to obscure rather than clarify the topic is so painfully obvious. What is the community meant to make of this other than to see it as gratuitous, possibly POV-led time-wasting? Iskandar323 (talk) 17:53, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

JDL? Mistamystery (talk) 03:03, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:IJDLI Zanahary (talk) 03:04, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

I'm not seeing "specific issues that are actionable" as Template:POV requires. If none can be provided I intend to remove the POV tag per When to remove #2: "It is not clear what the neutrality issue is, and no satisfactory explanation has been given." IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 03:02, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

The title is non-neutral. The lede follows weak sources over good ones, effectively employing op-eds as primary sources to support claims like “people have alleged that antisemitism is being weaponized”, when we have high-quality sources talking about the concept at large. Zanahary (talk) 03:49, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Title issues can only be addressed by RM, and that's not really a good reason to tag the page, but I guess we can wait for the consensus there. When you say "people have alleged", I assume you are referring to the voluminous citation of fairly eminent scholars. Let's not misrepresent the sources. That's not a constructive basis for a discussion. So, resetting, what are the specific issues? Iskandar323 (talk) 04:33, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

The Sources discussion also includes specific issues that are actionable for neutrality, regarding undue use of advocacy sources. Llll5032 (talk) 05:26, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Let's go one by one, these tags keep getting added then removed when found to have no basis, I suspect we will find the same thing here. What's up first? Selfstudier (talk) 09:23, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

In the Sources discussion, which you participated in, a majority of editors opposed inclusion of 14 named advocacy and opinion sources from both "sides", and favored limiting sources in the article more to high quality secondary and tertiary sources. Per WP:ONUS (which says that the onus is on editors for inclusion, not exclusion) and WP:EDITCON, such issues can be addressed in good faith via editing in the article. The editing can include in-text tags. If tags are added, I suggest that policies and specifics should be cited carefully in tag metadata. Llll5032 (talk) 15:15, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

"No current discussion" will lead to tag removal. Selfstudier (talk) 16:41, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

Although I agree that talk page discussion is often helpful, not all templates require that a talk page discussion be initiated; see WP:WTRMT #4. A tag added in good faith should not be removed prematurely, but rather if a condition in WP:WTRMT is satisfied. The WP:ONUS is on editors who want to include disputed content, not tags. More specific guidance is in WP:WNTRMT #2, #3, and #4 ("When not to remove"). Llll5032 (talk) 18:40, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

No guidance necessary, thanks, tags not subject of current discussion will be removed. Selfstudier (talk) 18:47, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

I removed the tag per "It is not clear what the neutrality issue is, and no satisfactory explanation has been given." "Specific issues that are actionable" need to exist / be presented to justify the tag per Template:POV. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 18:47, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

WP:WNTRMT #2, #3, and #4 make clear that the template in question should not be removed now. Llll5032 (talk) 18:53, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

And my removal has been reverted by Llll5032. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 18:54, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes. Because tags and templates are constructive for resolving specific issues in the article, they should not be removed prematurely without satisfying conditions in WP:WTRMT and WP:WNTRMT. Llll5032 (talk) 19:02, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

Reverted, due to refusal to discuss specifics. Selfstudier (talk) 20:11, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

Specifics have been cited by numerous editors in good faith, including some discussions in recent days. Please self-revert. Llll5032 (talk) 20:28, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

Like what? Be specific. Iskandar323 (talk) 20:33, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

Most recently in this talk page section, Poll, Requested Move, and Renaming the Article. Repeating them in this discussion is not an ideal use of time. But the existence of specific and ongoing good-faith neutrality disputes should be evident, so the template needs to be restored. Llll5032 (talk) 20:50, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

Citing discussions is not citing "specific issues that are actionable". IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 20:58, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

How is the neutrality dispute about the article title not a specific issue that is actionable? Llll5032 (talk) 21:02, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

RM for that, as has been explained on multiple occasions. Selfstudier (talk) 21:05, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

The RM you began addresses a question about clarity, not neutrality. Llll5032 (talk) 02:35, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

As clear from the placement of the tag, this is pending the result of both the lede conversation as well as the RM. Mistamystery (talk) 21:12, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

@Mistamystery: Let's be clear. You don't actually have a valid neutrality issue. You just want to (without good cause) merge the topic with political antisemitism, which has occasionally in historic literature been described in terms of "weaponization", but this would obfuscate the legitimate standalone topic that we have here. You also appear to be interested in generally euthanizing the language, presumably because you consider "weaponization" to be too hostile-sounding, even though it is in fact NPOV, as this is how the subject is most frequently brought up, as and when it is discussed. All of this ironically comes as usage is increasing rapidly. Iskandar323 (talk) 21:25, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

Think we have a good case here for disruptive WP:CPUSH. Selfstudier (talk) 22:15, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

The disputation around this page has been in existence since the page's creation, and I didn't initiate it, thank you. If anything, an accusation that this page is WP:CPUSH (which I am not yet leveling, for the record) belongs in the other direction as this page could more readily be seen in a tendentious attempt to WP:GAME a fringe definition into legitimacy instead of reasonably laying out the general and historical use of the terminology in a neutral and encyclopedic fashion.

Secondly, there is no political antisemitism page, so there are no grounds to merge this into a subsection of an existing page. By all means, start off a main article there and I wouldn't be opposed to a merge discussion.

I'm attempting to resolve this civilly, but if we're really starting to scrounging deep into our pockets for accusatory language, I want to know why a small group of editors, only one of which have contributed any form of substance to this page, are leading its defense in lieu of its principal author and contributor, who has remained almost entirely silent during weeks of discussions.

Should we be equally stating there good cause for suspicion of WP:TAGTEAM in this instance, or worse, proxy editing for others (so they may avoid direct debate)? I'm not (yet), and am still operating under the assumption we can AGF our way to a civil resolution to this page's issues, so am humbly requesting we remain on topic and refrain from aspersions.

Mistamystery (talk) 01:47, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

I can conceivably imagine a situation where Once is simply disinterested in getting involved in this meaningless expulsion of words, given that anyone with two eyes and a brain should be able to understand the clearly notable topic and its scope here. More power to him for staying away from it all. Iskandar323 (talk) 07:14, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

See your talk page. Selfstudier (talk) 09:21, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Since you've added/restored the POV tag @Mistamystery, you are required to provide "specific issues that are actionable" per Template:POV. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 00:20, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

@IOHANNVSVERVS In the future, please be sure review existing talk page discussions, which includes specific recommendations to resolve longstanding neutrality issues, before preemptively (and potentially disruptively) removing neutrality tags. Mistamystery (talk) 01:30, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Template:POV clearly states "Please also explain on the article's talk page why you are adding this tag, identifying specific issues that are actionable". Pointing to multiple past discussions is not "identifying specific issues that are actionable".

Since "it is not clear what the neutrality issue is, and no satisfactory explanation has been given", the tag should be removed, again per Template:POV.

- IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 03:33, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

I don't see how it can be concluded that actionable issues have not been specified. For example, the long-running neutrality dispute about the title is so specific, the action of editing only one word might solve it. At least 19 other titles have been proposed by multiple editors in good faith. Llll5032 (talk) 11:25, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Saying the issues are specific and actionable is not the same thing as outlining. Two editors provided 19 other titles (again not a neutrality issue, but an RM issue), without sources. Iskandar323 (talk) 11:30, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

OP compiled some of those titles in good faith from a number of other neutrality discussions on this talk page, and at least the number of academic sources has been compared for some of those, as I hope you recall from those discussions. Llll5032 (talk) 11:40, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

See your talk page as well. Selfstudier (talk) 11:52, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

@Selfstudier, I have not understood your argument about when article titles are not subject to neutrality templates. Can you specify the Wikipedia policy regarding that? Llll5032 (talk) 12:15, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

OK, one more time in addition to the several times already explained previously, one fixes title problems with RMs. Selfstudier (talk) 12:25, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

The documentation linked from the neutrality template, in fact, specifies one example of a neutrality dispute being if "The subject or title of the article can imply a particular point of view." Llll5032 (talk) 12:24, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

More wikilawyering. Selfstudier (talk) 12:25, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Then what policy overrides the neutrality template's own documentation? Please cite and quote from it? Llll5032 (talk) 12:30, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

You are citing an essay. One....last....time. RM. Selfstudier (talk) 12:38, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Selfstudier, can you please quote Wikipedia guidance about "RM" that you believe overrides the essay guidance about titles that the standard NPOV template links to? I am asking the question in good faith. Llll5032 (talk) 13:02, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Weaponization of antisemitism/Archive 1#Requested move 31 January 2024 Close "The result of the move request was: No consensus. This discussion has been running for almost a month, and there isn't even an actual proposal for where to move the article yet, or any other article highlighted that it might be ambiguous with. There is some support for a move, but also other comments saying that the status quo is fine. As such, there isn't any consensus to move and we stay where we are. Informal discussion can continue if editors wish, and if there's a more concrete and clearer proposal then it can be brought back in a fresh RM."

Then a Talk:Weaponization of antisemitism/Archive 2#Tagging about tagbombing, which took place in Early March with a late comment from yourself on 17 march "Some of the tags were removed before any conditions in WP:WTRMT were satisfied." Duh.

In all the time since the first RM, no other RM until finally I put one up on 21 April, still running and includes yet more wikilawyering from yourself. If it goes through the title will be changed to Weaponization of antisemitism accusations and if not the title will stay the same.

For issues with a title, as I have suggested multiple times now, see Wikipedia:Requested moves. Refers to Wikipedia:Article titles#Neutrality in article titles (a policy) and Wikipedia:Disambiguation#Primary topic primary topics. Please don't waste editorial time citing template documentation and essays, make a proper argument. So far your arguments have not been at all persuasive and are arguably disruptive. Notably, you have not presented any RM to change the title or even in the current RM, suggested an alternative title. Selfstudier (talk) 14:10, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Note Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2021 October 26#Template:Cleanup title covering Cleanup, Disputed, Inappropriate and POV title. Rationale "The proper process for requesting that the title of an article be changed is Wikipedia:Requested moves. All of these template do nothing other than put to page into an evidently unmonitored maintenance category (Category:Wikipedia title cleanup) and shunt the burden of going through the requested moves process to someone else."

Closed as delete. Selfstudier (talk) 14:59, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

One notable comment "Do stuff, don't tag stuff, if at all possible. Forcing these pages into the requested moves process actually gets eyeballs on them. RM "not liking" non-discrete proposals is a problem with that process (if indeed such a problem exists), and bandaiding it up with templates that languish for long times is not the solution. Also per Sdkb's "just because you can, doesn't mean you should"." Selfstudier (talk) 15:01, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Unless you can present a reliable RS stating that the title is somehow a POV term for the subject, and stating what the better NPOV term is, cease and desist. Iskandar323 (talk) 12:32, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

If a dozen names are presented, clearly not a lot of thought has gone into which ones are actually most appropriate and best-supported by reliable, independent sources. Iskandar323 (talk) 11:53, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

When you're quoting obscure WP acronyms instead of discussing the specifics everyone is asking for, it's a sign that you may be Wikilawyering. Iskandar323 (talk) 20:20, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

Referring to protocols about removing and retaining extant tags in a discussion about whether to remove extant tags is Wikilawyering? Zanahary (talk) 00:53, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

It certainly is when unaccompanied by substantial positions on the actual article content. Onceinawhile (talk) 13:03, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Actually, in the numerous discussions I've seen on this removal of tags in other article, it generally does devolve into Wikilawyering. O3000, Ret. (talk) 13:09, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Break

It's been two weeks since these tags were added and this discussion was opened. Having reviewed the above, it appears that no substance has been provided to support the claims of POV. No challenges have been made to the sourcing in this article. Am I missing something? Onceinawhile (talk) 13:08, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

If so I'm missing it also. I see no reason for an NPOV tag. O3000, Ret. (talk) 19:35, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

As per below requests and the above, a more detailed point-by-point outline of POV and neutrality concerns will be posted shortly. Mistamystery (talk) 20:21, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Needs copy edit?? Tag

If something needs a copy edit and one is doing a whole bunch of edits anyway, why tag? Just do it. Selfstudier (talk) 15:09, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Did you mean to ping me? Copy-editing takes time and thought, and tags spark discussion that lead to consensus-building. Zanahary (talk) 17:37, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

You seem to be managing to copy edit quite well these last two days, just not for that very short sentence, strikes me as a pointy tag, entirely consistent with prior behavior. Selfstudier (talk) 17:44, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

I don’t know what point I would be making, since as you say I’ve been making lots of copy-edits, but absent discussion of the tag itself and its attached prose, inquiries about why I left tags and concern about pointy editing sounds like something to raise at my talk page, not the article’s. Zanahary (talk) 17:51, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

My initial comment here was not addressed to you specifically, you chose to respond to it as if it were. The tag has indeed sparked a discussion, just not the sort you were expecting. Selfstudier (talk) 17:55, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Reasons why I deleted the last paragraph and source

The opinion piece from the National Post is devoted to refuting the claim that Jewish people are hesitant to criticize anything Israel does. That has nothing to do with the weaponization claim, that is, the claim that strong supporters of Israel (whether Jewish or not) use the charge of antisemitism in an effort to silence critics of Israel (including Jewish critics of Israel). The paragraph I deleted is itself unintentionally antisemitic in its wording ("the claim that Jews are `weaponizing antisemitism' to suppress criticism of Israel") because in wikivoice it misstates the claim by identifying the people doing the weaponizing as Jews. NightHeron (talk) 23:33, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

That framing is straight from the source, which is in direct response to an op-ed (cited earlier in the article) that antisemitism is being weaponized to silence criticism of Israel. The source also identifies the people supposedly weaponizing as Jews. Zanahary (talk) 23:57, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Please read the text of the opinion piece, and keep in mind that the headline is typically written by an editor, not by the author, and so is not necessarily an accurate summary of the content. The text of the source responds to the "op-ed in the Harvard Crimson calling on defenders of Israel to stop `weaponizing' antisemitism for their own ends." The source identifies the group accused of weaponizing as "defenders of Israel", and nowhere (except in the headline) does it identify the group as "Jews" (identifying the group as "Jews" would be antisemitic). As I said, the source argues at length that there's a lot of criticism of Israel by Jews, but it does not argue against the claim that defenders of Israel attempt to use the antisemitism charge as a weapon against anti-Israel protests. So the source is not relevant for this article. NightHeron (talk) 00:40, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

The National Post is not a good source. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 00:37, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

Subheading for the Livingstone Formulation

I added a subheading in the Conceptual criticisms section for the Livingstone Formulation. It was removed by @Onceinawhile, with the edit summary citing this Talk comment of mine.
I don't understand this removal, and would like to hear from other editors: is there a reason not to gather the Livingstone Formulation-related content under a subheading? The cited comment calls for headings to follow sources describing the heading topic in question, which in the case of the Livingstone Formulation is certainly met, given how many sources explicitly refer to and discuss it. Zanahary (talk) 09:04, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

I'll note that it's functionally organized in subsections anyways; all the Livingstone Formulation-related stuff is together, apart from the section's unrelated content. Zanahary (talk) 09:14, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

The formulation is just Hirsh coinage and their position on such matters is well known so that gives undue emphasis to a biased view. In reality, most interlocutors instead follow the Macpherson Principle, equivalent to Wikipedias AGF, when dealing with such accusations and only when there is evidence of bad faith taking a different path. Selfstudier (talk) 16:35, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

There is a variety of authors referring to the formulation, not just Hirsh. His view is also only “biased” insofar as it is a view. Your disagreement with Hirsh’s analysis is not really relevant to the question of due weight. Zanahary (talk) 16:56, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Write here what you think the formulation is. Selfstudier (talk) 17:03, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

No need; what I think the formulation is doesn’t matter. This is about the concept’s presence in reliable secondary sources, which is broad and prominent. All the content relating to it is in the latter part of the Conceptual disputes section; why shouldn’t it be given a subheading? It would improve readability. Zanahary (talk) 17:06, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

It does not deserve a subhead, I just explained why. Oh, wait, I broke my own rule and wasted breath to no avail. Slaps self, reminds self to stop doing it. Selfstudier (talk) 17:09, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

That’s cool man. Anyone else think putting a subheading over conceptually related content whose inclusion in the article is not disputed makes sense? Zanahary (talk) 17:14, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

At least it has the merit of proving that "Weaponization" exists else why would the estimable Hirsh be opining about it, a not untypical inversion. Selfstudier (talk) 17:20, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Btw, we don't wikilink things that are in quotes because that implies the person quoted was referring to the wikilinked article when they may not have intended to do so. See Wikipedia talk:Quotations should not contain wikilinks Selfstudier (talk) 17:33, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Got it, thanks Zanahary (talk) 18:20, 10 May 2024 (UTC)