Talk:We'wha

Pronouns

Are we really sticking with "they?" I find it extremely confusing. I guess it might come more naturally to those people who find themselves reading articles about transpeople more often but for laypersons it's really weird. Dennis C. Abrams (talk) 20:36, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

I agree with this. However, before deciding, is there a Wikipedia policy on pronoun use? Ibanix (talk) 15:42, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

Currently pronoun usage is inconsistent. "They" is used in the beginning, but "she" is used later on. I am not familiar enough with the subject matter to make a definite call over which pronoun ought to be preferred, but it ought to be consistent (unless there's a good reason for inconsistency). "They" seems to make sense to me, since We'wha was what is considered to be part of a "third gender" (lhamana). Plus, "they" can accurately describe anyone, even a man or a woman. The article also contains the offensive (and inaccurate) sentence "[s]he is historically known mainly for the fact that she was man but chose to live out her life as a woman" among other issues. This needs to be fixed. 50.243.219.54 (talk) 05:59, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

Commenting up top here on purpose: Period sources, by close friends and family, usually used masc pronouns. Most of the sources using fem pronouns have been non-Native, and, often, revisionist. So... Cleaning up the article, I have kept the original pronouns in all quotes, and, as they vary so thoroughly in the reliable sources, I have defaulted to neutral in any text that is in WP's voice. Indigenous gender identities are not modern trans, and many don't even fit into the idea of "two-spirit", which many traditional people see as an "urban neologism". - CorbieV ^☊ ☼ 18:19, 18 May 2019 (UTC)

Dear driveby IPs, I know you mean well, but this is not a modern, LGBTQ article, person, or concept. Please give this person the cultural and personal respect of understanding them on their own terms, and not revising the sources or history to try to mistranslate them into modern, white, terminology or understandings. The "changing ones" use both/multiple pronouns, as they take on different roles at different times in life. They do not need to have "[sic]" put in after the descriptions written by their friends, nor do they need the descriptions and histories written by people from their cultures altered. Thanks. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 22:30, 22 September 2019 (UTC)

I am a two spirit from New Mexico and find the use of gender neutral pronouns for we wha offensive. THEY and THEM are very uncommon native terms now and didn't exist historically in we wha's time. She likely interchanged pronouns based on circumstances or choice in the moment. I personally am offended since the non-native use of neutral language is being pushed on our culture now, but also rewriting history. We wha would never have understood it and as a two spirit myself, it makes zero sense. I ask that this modern inaccurate usage be removed...she likely went usually by SHE and HER given her activities and in documentation. Stop pushing white culture onto us please. Happyhoneybee (talk) 19:19, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

I am boldly making a change to adhere to sources. Specifically Stevenson 1904 p. 310 states: and as he was always referred to by the tribe as "she"—it being their custom to speak of men who don woman s dress as if they were women—and as the writer could never think of her faithful and devoted friend in any other light, she will continue to use the feminine gender when referring to We'wha. Peaceray (talk) 23:04, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

Stevenson is one of the non-Native sources I am referring to. The in-community sources usually use he/him. I am sticking with what is in the sources, and when it is unclear, using they/them. So the article uses all three. Defaulting to she/her for the whole article, especially when the text in other parts of the same sentence uses other pronouns, is not appropriate. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 20:57, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

Once again, read this entire talk page. There was never any consensus to change the article to they/them. But an IP went through and did it and either no one caught it, or they supported it. It's clear that We'wha went by he/him as a boy and when living and working as a farmer, which was most of their life (if less documented by photos). It seem like Stevenson used she/her for We'wha when We'wha was raising children and specializing in weaving and pottery, but I'm not certain others did, as We'wha and others were also described as "men in women's clothing". For now, I'm giving Stevenson the benefit of the doubt so went with she/her in that section. So, I have aligned the pronouns to era and sources. I have to agree with the people who've commented here about the tribal sources supporting either this or just he/him, and the colonial ones wanting to impose non-Native constructs here. I think we have to respect this ancestor on his/her own terms. It may not be the natural way many of us speak, but it's what's in the sources. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 20:57, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

What in-community sources are you referring to here? I don't see any contemporary Zuni accounts in the immediate biography. If there are primary sources of We'wha's community using masculine pronouns, perhaps they should be quoted in the "pronouns" section alongside Stevenson? As currently presented, that section gives off the impression that Stevenson is the only contemporary source for We'wha's pronouns.

Additionally, even if he/him was used for a majority of We'wha's life, and she/her only later; MOS:GIDINFO suggests that the most recent gendered language should take precedent, which according to Stevenson would be she/her. If we don't consider Stevenson a reliable enough source, MOS:GIDINFO seems to suggest that in the case of no consensus there should either be a rewrite to remove gendered language entirely (except direct quotation) or use of neutral they/them. I don't think the style guide supports using he/him alone or mixing he and she together. Eternal-throwaway (talk) 03:53, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

Adding to this, in more recent writings Will Roscoe has been using "they" for We'wha.[1] If the authors of both major sources for the article agree that he/him is not appropriate, and suggest either she/her (Stevenson) or they/them (Roscoe), I can't see the justification for using he/him in the article. Unless there are significant Zuni primary sources that haven't been properly cited.

[1] Which also suggests that Roscoe's sentence in the "pronouns" section should be changed. He primarily used masculine pronouns in 1991, but this is no longer the case as of 2019. Eternal-throwaway (talk) 04:11, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

discussion of the article

The correct spelling is We'wha. Pronounced WAY-wah.

We'wha visited Washington, D.C. in 1886, not 1866.

Contemporary Zunis refer to We'wha when speaking in English with the male pronoun.

-Will Roscoe, author, The Zuni Man-Woman

In what manner is "We'wha" the correct spelling? Hyacinth (talk) 14:30, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

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Notes cut from body of article in cleanup

Some notes cut from body of article:

Originally "One of the female anthropologists described We'wha as the strongest character and the most intelligent of the Zuni tribe" (Roscoe, 1991, p. 29) We need the actual name. Was it Stevenson? Was she friends with Stevenson & other anthropologists? And by the way, what gender pronoun should be used for We'wha? This article used the feminine, but the Two-Spirit article used the masculine. NOTE: Zuni sources use masc. pronouns for We'wha. Perhaps we should try to be a bit gender-neutral here.

Still editing. - CorbieV ^☊ ☼ 17:07, 18 May 2019 (UTC)

Date on photo?

The date on the photo in the "We'wha's and Stevenson's friendship" section is captioned "in the 1920's", well after the subject's date of death. Not sure what the correct date would be? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.168.105.253 (talk) 17:28, 21 September 2019 (UTC)

Looks like that's the date the collector acquired the photo. If and when the date is found, it can be added. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 22:22, 22 September 2019 (UTC)

Remove white culture gender neutral language please. It is offensive.

I am a two spirit from New Mexico and find the use of gender neutral pronouns for we wha offensive. THEY and THEM are very uncommon native terms now and didn't exist historically in we wha's time. She likely interchanged pronouns based on circumstances or choice in the moment. I personally am offended since the non-native use of neutral language is being pushed on our culture now, but also rewriting history. We wha would never have understood it and as a two spirit myself, it makes zero sense. I ask that this modern inaccurate usage be removed...she likely went usually by SHE and HER given her activities and in documentation. Stop pushing white culture onto us please. I am 60 years old and have been a Two Spirit since birth....before that term existed, as well. It is important to respect We Wha and not make decisions for her by guessing she would have used gender neutral pronouns. Apologies about not knowing how to post well on here...it is my first time to do so. Happyhoneybee (talk) 19:32, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

 Done Peaceray (talk) 23:04, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

It's not an imposition of white culture gender neutral language. "They" is used to signifiy uncertainty. We'Wha went by different pronouns at different times in "their" life. Instead of vacillating between the two terms throughout the article or innacurately sticking to one throughout, it makes more sense to use the pronouns "they/them." Again, not as an imposition of white colonialism, but merely a placeholder for lack of a better consistent alternative. James Goodyear (talk) 20:04, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Date of Death

It says that We’Wha died in 1896, but earlier, it says that Stevenson visited them 1896-1897. Which is correct? Spiel (talk) 22:14, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

I think that someone needs to go through the Stevenson book & reconcile statements & page numbers. The pages listed in the citation do not seem to be correct. I did see that page 311 states:

In the fall- of 1896 a Sha'liiko god was entertained at her home. Although at this time We'wha was suffering from valvular heart disease, she did most of the work, including the laving of a stone floor in the large room where the ceremonial was to occur. She labored early and late so hard that when the time came for holding the ceremony she was unable to be present. From this time she was listless and remained alone as much as possible, though she made no complaint of illness.

The remainder of that page & the next goes on to describe her decline & death. So Stevenson seems to indicate Wa'wha died in late 1896. Peaceray (talk) 22:42, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

Accusation of witchcraft

I've been researching We'wha's life for a book I'm writing and can find no evidence that she was accused of witchcraft. It seems she was arrested for obstructing US officers who were attempting to take away a man. This man was accusing another man of witchcraft. If I am wrong where is the account that she was accused of witchcraft sourced? 2A00:23C7:A356:E401:D1D6:BF8E:D464:861F (talk) 07:59, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: History of Sexuality

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 7 September 2023 and 22 December 2023. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Bunny322, James Goodyear, Wxccxn lxps (article contribs).

— Assignment last updated by Nyxtingale (talk) 16:42, 9 November 2023 (UTC)