Talk:War in Afghanistan (2001–2021)/Archive 5

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Umm... what about US?

Seriously. Huge parts of this article read more like a romanticized novel about the brave achievements of the daring US troops than an NPOV article. But I guess that is to be expected. After all, this is the US Wikpedia, right? And only a terrorist would ever question the war, right?

• sigh* 85.224.198.207 (talk) 11:17, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

    Sadly  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Myself0101 (talk • contribs) 01:35, 27 December 2007 (UTC) 

It is sad that someone complains about a clearly netural article. Do you know why US news stations and the media never talk about afghanistan? I'm sure more than half of people do not even know we are still in conflict there. It is because it is a war that was a response to an attack on the US and had relatively low casualities. Why someone would question a war in Afghanistan is beyond me. In short, your comment is imcompetent and stupid. If you disagree with US presence in Afghanistan then you are entitled to your own opinion but wikipedia is centralized and neutral, and it has no intention of changing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by JNelson93 (talk • contribs) 19:55, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

It is not the U.S. Wikipedia. It is the English Wikipedia.

Edwin Larkin (talk) 19:18, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Post-Invasion Military Operations

Do you think that information on the Taliban insurgency and military operations following the fall of the Taliban should be put here or in a seperate article?

Good question. Both. A small summary here and a detailed article with its own belligerents on another article. I will even add to it if you make it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by JNelson93 (talk • contribs) 19:57, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Images

To G3Pro : I have removed these images for a reason ; they distort what war really looks like. If I see your pictures I get the impression that your glorious special forces won the war just by riding camels -everything is clean and nice. The reality of war are dead civilians, destroyed home , hunger, disease etc. But I am willing to suggest a compromise : We just delete half of the images of the glorious US Special Forces in their righteous war on terror and replace the other half with pictures of dead Afghan children. The other alternative would be to completely remove these pictures since they do in no way enhance ones understanding of the topic.

Turrican

Operation Enduring Freedom was won fought almost exclusively by special operations forces and military jets. In paragraphs which describe the fighting and events during the war (Mazar I Sharif uprising, bombing campaign, operation Anaconda, etc), I included images which were very relevant to the discussion and add a visual perspective to the article which so lacks one. Removing the pictures contributes nothing to the article and is quite childish (Mommy, I don't want those pictures anymore!) and is considered Wikipedia:Vandalism. --G3pro 13:00, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Actually I find it quite revealling that you choose not to comment on my accusations concerning a distorted view of the invasion of Afghanistan. Your pictures just show the clean, precise war which was propagated by the US and I am not willing to accept this. I repeat what I said earlier ; Either we replace half the pictures and replace them with Afghan victims - a Compromise - or if you think that in this case it would be better not to show any pictures - reality is ugly after all - we can remove them completely. Wikipedia does not need any Pro-War or Pro-US-Imperialism propaganda and I will do everything in my power to prevent this stuff from spreading.

And besides, what kind of information do I get from the pictures ? That Special Forces ride camels ?

Turrican

Operation Enduring Freedom was fought almost exclusively by special operations forces. If there is one category of pictures that would perfectly categorize this operation, it would be of the special operations soldier. There are about 10,000 troops in Afghanistan, split between US Army SF, Navy SEALs, AF combat controllers, AF special operations, 1st SFOD-D (delta), CIA-SAD (special activities division/paramilitary), 10th Mountain Division, 75th Ranger regiment, Army PSYOPS, and Marine Force Recon. There are also thousands of support personnel and aviators from the Navy (precision strike aircraft), Air Force (B-52s famously), Army (Apache, Kiowa, Chinook, Blackhawk), and Marine Corps (Cobra, SeaKnights). These are the forces that fought in Afghanistan. And if you know anything about the troop units I listed, you would understand that they are all Special operations capable units, and about 70% of them are high-speed-low-drag.

If you knew anything about what these forces do or anything about how the operation was carried out, you would know about Special Forces soldiers training Afghan soldiers, air force combat controllers targetting enemy positions for air strike, and rangers/SOF/10th mountain searching caves and mountains for Taliban and al Qaeda. What kind of information do you get from these pictures? Well, you would get the idea that the US led a war far different than any war previously fought. It was not fought like the Soviets in the 80s. It was not fought with infantry divisions. It was fought with unconventional forces who would use horses to move around in a foreign country, not helicopters or tanks or whatever.

If you think that the images show a pro-war/pro-US-imperialism, you don't belong even near an NPOV discussion. What purpose does showing images from www.ogrish.com serve for this article? Are you trying to tell me that war has innocents being harmed? Everyone knows about the side-effects of war. If you want a compromise, include pictures of the Taliban soldiers or al-qaeda terrorists you so sympathise with.

But don't even think about removing images which so well describe the structure of the war, events of the war, participants of the war, leaders of the war, operations of the war, and nature of the war. You want compromise? Include some photos of your favorite Taliban and al-Qaeda soldiers. Don't sink to using juvenile vandalism to get your opinion that the US is an evil/imperialistic nation. --G3pro 15:32, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I do not sympathise with the Taliban, brain-washed Yankee-Drone. Actually your country did more then just sympathise with them for a long time - you supported them and allowed them to overthrow the Democratic Republic of Afghanistan. And now when I demand that the victims have their place too you accuse me of sympathising with the Taliban. Your hypocrisy is really sickening.

Concerning your statement about the information I should have gotten from viewing these pictures: I think that you overestimate both the information someone without your unhealthy obsession with Special Forces can get from these Pictures and the interest the average reader has in that particular topic.

Since we still live in a time when people get tricked into supporting war by propaganda it can never hurt to include pictures to show how war really looks like. Showing some pictures of the Taliban is in no way different from showing pictures of the glorious US special forces in their Holy War against Terrorism - in both cases the people causing the horrors of war are shown, not the victims.

Turrican

So you ignore the method in which the war was fought and the major players in the war, and you ignore the fact that there are always innocent victims of war. Instead of advocating including images of taliban soldiers which would properly keep the perspective to agressors versus defenders, you advocate including images of injured children. You fundamentally don't understand doing the format you advocate puts the visual perspective of the US versus innocent children. Then again, maybe you do understand that, as you showed by calling OEF "an imperialistic war". Include images of the taliban and al Qaeda, and you will have a properly balanced article. --G3pro 18:34, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Hi G3pro - I don't necessarily agree that we should include pictures of dead babies, but I do agree that we should resist the tendency to turn discussions of war into discussions purely about the mechanics of war and ignore other implications. You say, "everyone knows about the side-effects of war," but I might as well say, "Everyone knows that war is fought by soldiers." I don't think we should be attempting to construct any particular tale about what happened here - you might feel that the innocents lost are just detritus and not the main point of the conflict, which is about "aggresors versus defenders", but others may disagree. Images are always difficult to balance out; they are enormously powerful and rarely morally neutral.

Therefore, I propose we err on the side of caution and simply eschew any imagery at all. Our job is NOT to say, "Look at the horrors of war!", but neither should we elide that message. Difficult to do. Graft 18:55, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)

> you advocate puts the visual perspective of the US versus innocent children

One simple question : Were these children killed or injured by the Taliban or the US military ? But we really should show both sides. What do you think about showing pictures of American children killed by the Taliban airforce and of American villages destroyed during this war ?

But aside from this : Of course I am also willing to show pictures of the Taliban if you think that it would be more balanced. Then we would have pictures of the Taliban and the US Special Forces and of the civilan victims of this invasion - which were by the way nearly wholly caused by US bombing.

Turrican

Two points. There is already an extremely long section on civilian deaths. Nothing wrong with including pictures in this area, but for Turrican to suggest that the inclusion of US SF pictures somehow minimizes this is ridiculous.

Secondly, the contribution of special forces in Afghanistan is historic in light of the fact that they were primarily responsible for the destruction of the Taliban regime. There has never been a conflict in history this large where special operation soldiers took on such a large burden and had the greatest impact. TDC 20:21, Sep 13, 2004 (UTC)

Just to make it clear ; I am not against the inclusion of pictures of Special Forces - I am against using them exclusively while not showing other sides of the war. You just can't deny the fact that such a selection would over-emphasise one point of the invasion.

Turrican

If we were to have pictures of civilian deaths for this conflict, then we need to start doing the same thing for every single war out there. For example, the article on the D-day invasions of Normandy has no pictures (nor no mention for that matter) of the thousands of French civilians that died that day from Allied bombings (which actually exceeded Allied soldier deaths IIRC). --Bletch 16:45, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)

In response to Bletch, that is a nonsensical argument. By your reckoning it would therefore, conversley, be necessary to go over every wikipedia article related to war and insert pictures of the troops that are deemed to be significant(to make it compliant with the pattern set here). The article you link to has images of varied subject matter within it. Even so, no-one here is discussing the D-day invasion and the article on the D-Day invasion did not set the gold standard on war related articles, and neither does this article.--Bat-think (talk) 11:31, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

This is pathetic. Spreading Us Imperialism? Put the pictures back on... The invasion of Afghanistan was clean and prestine. You want us to show Al Qaida beheading people or what? Your trying to make some point that this is US agression and a useless war caused by an imperialist ignorant empire. 3000 people died in our country on 9.11 planned and funded by Osama Bin Laden who was sheltered by the taliban. Put those pictures back on, it is vandalism to remove them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.119.253.135 (talk) 01:48, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Casualties

Another Canadian is been killed in Zhara or Zhana district outside Kandahar city. August 9, 2008

The casualty section doesnt' seem to mention US and Allied forces casualties. Or, am I just missing it? Does anyone know of a site that tracks these? Google didn't help me much. Best I can tell the US lost about 200 dead to date in worldwide 'Enduring Freedom' operations. No estimate of wounded found. Links? Wolfman 21:13, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I found one: Operation Enduring Freedom Casualties. I have added an article on it, linked from the main page (Coalition Casualties in Afghanistan). However, if anyone wants to make a combined article on casualties (Taliban, civilian, etc.) using the coalition numbers (like the Iraq casualty page), that is fine. Just make a mention here. PBP, 4 November 2004

---

In the background section, there is no mention of the negotiations between the Bush Administration and the Taleban over the Unocol pipeline deal; isn't that relevant? I thought that Bush decided to invade Afghanistan when they couldn't get a good concession from the Taleban, but then Bush had to wait until 9/11 for an excuse to launch the attack, no?

Re:"Bush decided to invade Afghanistan when they couldn't get a good concession from the Taleban"( Carlyle-Bush_Bin_Laden-Group took that for granted ). But such US-deals will soon be over. Worldwide English Wikipedia faces an anihilating verdict:It's the one-dimensional product of the Christian-Jewish community You speak about Afghanistan & Iran & Pakistan & Columbia & Irak. You can't change that anymore. You are the foos of freedom. You will have the same destruction as Nagasaki at home too.

This barely literate comment is somewhat difficult to make out due to horrendous english, but I gather the writer, (hiding behind anonymity of course) disapproves of the US, or possibly Wikipedia, or possibly international trade deals, one cannot be sure. I also don't know who the 'Christian-Jewish' community is, I'm certainly not part of it. Could we get a phone number or email for this 'organised community' you rant of? Actually, other than simply mocking this pitiable rant, which to be fair is like shooting fish in a barrel, I wanted to ask why offal like this is left on the boards. Is this community moderated, so such drivel is deleted away, or is it left there as an object lesson in just how stupid some people can be?

---

Casualties ranked oddly. Currently in the infobox the order for the coalation nations is USA (Makes sense as they have the most deaths) UK and then Canada, but Canada has lost more men, so shouldn't they be switched? Or is there something else I'm missing in how their ranked?1st scots

first to land in afgan

The norwegian special forces Fsk.

Well *someone* had to check to see if it was safe. The Norwegians just picked the short straw. ;) :P--Kross^Talk 20:54, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Shouldn't Norway be added to the list of combatants? Norway was among the first in, and has had a presence ever since, both in the American led operations and in ISAF, with special forces, engineers (mine- and explosivessweepers), F16 fighter jets, Provincial Reconstructions Teams, a Quick Response Team, a field hospital, various logistics units such as a C130, and has also led the Regional Area Coordinator – North from December 2005 - May 2006.

No, Norway should not be on the list of combatants, because they are not combatting the Taliban or Al-Qaeda. During the invasion, yes their SF may have engaged the enemy, but the international special forces coalition that was used during the opening months of the war was made up of many many many nations. THe list would go on and on if all were included. The combatant list is for nations/parties who are actively combatting using massive forces and taking part in the major operations.

I agree with not adding Norway to the participant list, only the biggest allies should be there. However, we are fighting the Taliban, at least your F-16s have been bombing them on quite a few occasions. The Norwegian forces are mostly there for reconstruction, but there's been combat too, we had a WIA just some days ago. And the special forces guys have been doing "stuff" over there since the beginning. The Marinejegerkommandoen (Navy special forces) even got a Navy Presidential Unit Citation from mr. Bush. We're in there, contributing. Manxruler 15:14, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

cite, meantime remove

'Some injuries and damage to housing have said to happen from boxes of relief supplies dropped from U.S. aircraft.

No actual casualties from those source have been observed so far thus can be seen as propaganda or myths.'

It would be better to have some evidence than this claim-couter-claim I think.

Guinnog 00:57, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Points on the Name debate

A few points I feel should be mentioned.

I disagree that ‘invasion’ is a POV term, it is instead a descriptive term. In Korea one side invaded, then the other side invaded. In WWII, one side invaded, then the other side invaded. It is a term used to describe overwhelming entry of an external military force into a country. The point about Liberation is moot. Liberation is an end, not a means. Yes operation overlord led to the liberation of France, and that Liberation was accomplished by means of an invasion. In addition, those who want to use the term 'Liberation' here had better be prepared for the obvious follow-up edits talking about how the country has really not been 'liberated' that much at all...

Secondly, some seem to object to invasion of Afghanistan because the government was not entirely recognised, and that it should be an invasion against the Taliban. That also is POV. Invasion of Afghanistan is descriptive, not leading. The forces of the US entered the country; they limited (barring covert ops) their attacks within the geographic confines of Afghanistan. The fact that not many nations recognised the government of the Taliban is irrelevant to the fact that they were the de facto government of the country. Put it this way, if China invaded Taiwan, would these same people on here call it a 'Liberation' because almost no country on the planet recognises the independence of Taiwan?

Thirdly, some people seem to oppose the term US-led, as they did not do all the fighting. Again, that is deceptive. Regardless of who did the fighting, the invasion was unarguably led by the US. Its technical, supply and support requirements were met by the US its air power, intelligence and logistics were American, as well a financial and political leadership. Furthermore this was done to accomplish a US objective, at the behest of the US government and the US people.

Given a combination of logic and precedent, I see no reason why the title: 'US-led Invasion of Afghanistan' should not be used. It is not POV and it is, ultimately, the best description of what actually happened.

Nordenfeldt

The title easily follows Allied invasion of Italy and Allied invasion of Sicily in syntax. However, I don't entirely agree with the "United States" part - it was a NATO operation. I would find it appropriate to rename it to it's military name as done in for example Operation Barbarossa or simply "2001 Invasion of Afghanistan". The problems is

1. "NATO invasion of Afghanistan" is the technically correct term and should as such be used.
2. The title does not acknowledge contributions from other countries - considering soldiers from Canada and UK died during the war it seems a bit inaapropriate. It would be appropriate to at least acknowledge that other countries shed blood.
3. The title does not acknowledge the significant fact that NATO sanctioned the war - this is important as it signifies a fundamental shift in NATO policy in terms of usage and deployment of NATO troops. Conveying THAT message and the implications thereof is IMHO more important than saying "The United States orchestrated the war" although that message is certainly significant as well.

In the end it's a question of what message you want to convey and I simply feel that NATO's involvement is more significant in historical terms than the fact that the US was primus motor.

In regards to the invasion part "liberation" is clearly unacceptable if we imagine titles such as "German liberation of Poland" or "German liberation of Czechoslovakia". Gardar Rurak 04:28, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Ah, the wonders of Paradox. 'US-led invasion' does not work because it underestimates the role of NATO in sanctioning and participating in the invasion. On the other hand, 'NATO Invasion of Afghanistan' does not work because it vstly over-represents the role of NATO in what was, de facto, a US Operation done with US air-power, US calling the strategic shots, US motives and US equipment. Perhaps given both of these cases, the title '2001 invasion of Afghanistan' would suit more people. though I for one would still vote for 'US-led'. Nordenfeldt

I agree completely with '2001 invasion of Afghanistan' or something very similar. The use of the "united states" completely understates international involvement and is offensive to all other participating countries. --metta, The Sunborn 16:46, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Agree with the above stating "2001 invasion of Afghanistan" is most appropriate. --Zer0faults 17:01, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Agree with "2001 invasion of Afghanistan". Though "U.S.-led" is logically fine (just typographically hard to read). JackyR 12:08, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

If you're British, this page should be entitled 'Fourth Afghan War'. I've added a brief mention of this in the main text. --Major Bonkers 09:02, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

What is certain is that "United States invasion of Afghanistan" is a wrong (and even a little shocking) title. "United States-led" or "Nato" (or "2001") would be better. France and Germany sent thousands of troops and (at least France) participated in air attacks: they wouldn't have done that without NATO or U.N. approval. The title should reflect the fact that the wars in Afghanistan and Irak do not have the same status (only the English-speaking public considered, at least in the beginning, that both invasions were anti-terrorist operations). Thbz 10:20, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

I second what you are saying, I think stating the year would be most appropriate as other conflicts are named similarly and it creates a unified way users can search for conflicts. I would second a motion to call it (2001) Invasion of Aghanistan or (2001) War in Aghanistan or something along those lines. Defining it by who led it decreases the roles of the member states I believe.

I further support what Thbz is stating. I feel the name should reflect that not only the United States attacked Afghanistan. I vote in support of (2001) War in Afghanistan, or (2001) Invasion of Afghanistan. --Zer0faults 17:04, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

The invasion was US-led and very few other countries participated. Later on other countries took the command of some forces. Añoranza 00:50, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

You can find the timeline online, the US and UK lead the assault and soon after numerous countries through NATO joined. --Zer0faults 00:39, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

The UK had by far less troops, so the invasion was definitely US-led. Añoranza 22:55, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Sorry I have to disagree, stating US led diminishes the roles of the other nations involved. No other war seems to be named in such a way on wikipedia, because all member nations contributions are viewed equally in the naming conventions. I believe here on wikipedia we should not diminish any nations roles, UK provided great air support during the war and now NATO is doing any amazing job in multiple areas. US led doesn't justify this. --Zer0faults 10:39, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

It was Bush's ultimatum, it was Bush's resolution granted by the Security Council, and it was by an overwhelming majority Bush's troops, so definitely US-led. Añoranza 01:03, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

"NATO invasion" would be my first choice, followed by "2001 invasion". I don't know about the other NATO members, but for Canada's military this is a huge deal, and the title "US invasion" diminishes the role of that role. --Arctic Gnome 23:16, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

I think War in Afghanistan is the appropiate title. The troop levels were never sufficient to really qualify as an invasion and primary combat operations were almost always done by Afghan troops. Equating Afghanistan with Normandy, Desert Storm, and Iraq just seems a little misleading. Topkai22 23:37, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Commanders: David Fraser, incorrect link

Under the list of "Commanders," the link to Canadian general David Fraser is incorrect. It links to a poet from Vancouver Island -- not the same guy, I assume. This should obviously be changed. I'm not sure if Wikipedia does links to external pages but if so might consider this bio from the Canadian Forces: http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/operations/archer/bios/fraser_e.asp

The Harry Schmidt link about the four Canadians killed in friendly fire is also an incorrect link, it leads to someone who died in the 60's. 70.48.12.70 01:49, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

The link now works, so there is no need to worry. (RiseAgainst01 01:25, 7 December 2006 (UTC))

Sources box

I've added a "Cite sources" box. This is not because the article has no sources, but because it has remarkably few for the length, and is on a topic which is recent and political and thus requires decent referencing. I've ended up here because a daughter article, List of casualties of the U.S. invasion of Afghanistan, is at AfD, where there seems to be a feeling that every paragraph should be separately referenced. It would be a shame if this article too ended up on AfD because of poor referencing.

Btw, this article is also very heavily written from the invading countries' POV. I recognise that this is largely because of publicity surrounding the foreign forces' military plans/outcomes, and a lack of published sources saying, "And this is what Taliban general XXX decided to do to prepare defences/counter-attack, etc". However the article needs to admit this and warn the reader. Currently, a passing Martian would have no difficulty deciding which "side" wrote it! I'll wait a little before slapping a POV notice on it, because I don't want anyone to feel got at, but this article does need work. Happy editing, JackyR 21:49, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Citations needed for Human Rights section please. I removed 2 faulty links leaving 2 allegations without supporting evidence. --Zer0faults 17:25, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

US-dubbed "War on terror" (The neutrality of this term is disputed.)

Rather than reverting we should find a solution. It is a propaganda term and cannot stay without quotation marks and a comment. Removing NPOV tags is against wikipedia policy. Añoranza 08:55, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Please see Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view for how to use NPOV tags, your comments are not NPOV tags. It is also a violation of Wiki Policy to mis represent policy, but I do not believe you are doing it in bad faith, which is why I am directing you to the appropriate policy page. Also I do not see a discussion here regarding this dispute, if you would like to start one perhaps you should lay out your factual information in bullets or something so people can review it. Thank you --Zer0faults 14:18, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

You know very well that the term is disputed, and not only by me, as you take part in the discussions of all articles where it is used, and you also know that the normal NPOV tag does not work inside a box. It is a complete overkill to use an NPOV tag for a whole article just because of one header. Añoranza 19:16, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

If you have a problem with Wiki policy feel free to debate in on the appropriate Wiki policy page, admins and community are very open to discussion. As I stated if you want it tagged then perhaps you should start a discussion in the war on terror article asking the community if they feel every mention in every article that contains "war on terror" should be changed to say "US-Dubbed "War on Terror" (the use of this term is disputed)" --Zer0faults 13:03, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

As you were already told, an article about a propaganda term is completely ok, using propaganda terms without quotation marks or comment is inappropriate. The article itself uses quotation marks, they should not be ommitted elsewhere. Añoranza 11:07, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

I am glad you found the correct POV tags. If you would have put those up in the first place there would not have been an issue, however you were leaving commentary and attempting to enforce that commentary as policy. --Zer0faults 11:33, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Can you please now state your factual information below so it can be weighed against those who feel otherwise, then we can begin to compile questions and surveys regarding the matter and put it to rest. --Zer0faults 11:50, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Psychological Warfare

This section now needs sources, the one link to a Japanese news source has died and is no longer available. --Zer0faults 13:00, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Title Change

I've moved to this title "United States war in Afghanistan" as a more neutral and more historic meaning term than "United States invasion of Afghanistan" which is a loaded term that is less neutral than simply "war." --Northmeister 02:51, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

I concur, that a good point, considering that the NA was involved in the fight. A bit more like a civil war. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 04:03, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

You are right about the NA (Northern Alliance), who welcomed America and helped in defeating the Taliban regime. --Northmeister 06:42, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

I was there as a U.S. Soldier from 2002 thru 2003 and I'd honestly say that it was more of a liberation than invasion- I've seen both (this was not my only deployment). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.224.3.233 (talk) 20:15, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't concur. I strongly agree with Jersey Devil that this change should have been discussed on the talk page first. I strongly disagree that the title "United States invasion of Afghanistan" is loaded. Is Northmeister trying to state that the United States did not invade Afghanistan? So far as I am concerned it is the new title that is biased.

I disagree with Tortuous Devastating Cudgel and Northmeister over their position on the relationship between the USA and the Northern Alliance. There is evidence that this was simply a marraige of convenience, that the NA did not, does not support the restoration of democracy. Rumsfeld's counted on the NA to capture Osama Bin Laden and Talibna Mullah Mohammed Omar and most of their senior lieutenants -- and the NA signally failed. Further they sold hundreds of innocent men to gullible American intelligence officials, who believed their claims that they were the senior al Qaeda and Taliban cadre.

I think the original title should be restored, and a proper discussion and vote taken over whether the article should have a name change. -- Geo Swan 14:07, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

What is your reasoning for title restoration? This article covers the war, not just the "invasion." Your views on the NA, though interesting commentary, does not negate the fact that the NA welcomed American soldiers in their fight against the oppressive Taliban regime. --Northmeister 14:09, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

A few things. The NA is not a monolithic organization. There were democrats, Islamists, tribalists, those who joined out of convience or for the millions of dollars in bribes paid, and those who sided because they did not want to be in the sights of a combat air controler as he guided a B1-Bto its destination. Secondly, local Afghan allies did about 99% of the legwork. Special Forces most cetainly coordinated them better than they could have hoped for, and the Air power certainly played an overwhelming role, but this was mainly a NA operation backed by US air Power and special operations. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 16:21, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

• Please name one Northern Alliance leader who supports democracy. -- Geo Swan 02:56, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Why did you just unilatterally make a major change on this page without so much as of asking for opinions of a possible change on this talk page?--Jersey Devil 06:22, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

I support the change, this article covers more then just invasion, it covers the entire war. Perhaps those that want an invasion article should consider branching out? Maybe the topic is large enough for something on the invasion (first part) and then the war (everything that takes place in the middle). The Korean War was not just a Korean invasion.

Invasion: The act of invading, especially the entrance of an armed force into a territory to conquer

War: 1)A state of open, armed, often prolonged conflict carried on between nations, states, or parties. 2)The period of such conflict.

This was more then just an invasion. --zero faults talk 16:31, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

I actually agree with the change as well on the same basis, but you can't just make such an important change in an article without at least consulting on the talk page.--Jersey Devil 21:25, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Being bold is a part of Wikipedia editing. I did not make the change in a vacuum. The consensus seems in the past and now for it. It makes perfect sense, per your and others statements. This is the discussion. If consensus were to emerge against the change, then though I would disagree, I would support the will of the community in this regard. --Northmeister 23:05, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Abuse of the "be bold" advice is right up near my list of top weaknesses of the wikipedia as it stands today. What makes you think "being bold" means relying solely on your own judgement when you must have anticipated your change would not win universal support?

I notice you don't seem to have bothered to take care of the over one hundred double redirects your move created. -- Geo Swan 02:50, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

No move is ever universally supported. But, the point is the name. There is general agreement here that the name is right. I apologize about taking care of the one hundred double redirects..any help here would be appreciated; I will do my best to catch them all. If the move I made for a name change is not accepted and the community wishes to have "invasion" instead (which is not the case), then so be it - I stand for the community (even if I disagree with the community). Without boldness on the part of men, where would the world be? --Northmeister 02:59, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Given that the current title has some grammar issues ("United States" isn't an adjective, for one), why not just move it to something like War in Afghanistan (2001) and avoid the issue altogether? Kirill Lokshin 13:28, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, as this is a NATO war, not just the U.S., shouldn't that be in the title?--Pharos 01:49, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually, this is a US, British, Canadian, Dutch, Danish, (add) Australian, and Afghan Army war. ALL other NATO forces are not allowed to use deadly force (unless being attacked), are not allowed to actively seek out engagements, and have caveats that keep them from engaging the enemy. Has no one been following the problems this is causing within NATO? See the recent (May 20, 2008) Der Spiegel article on how the German KSK let a top Taliban commander escape because they were only allowed to capture him, not use deadly force.

Operation Enduring Freedom

A lot of the material in this article overlaps with that in Operation Enduring Freedom. It might be worthwhile to merge most of it here and turn the other page into a disambiguation (of sorts) between the Afghanistan and Phillipines operations. Kirill Lokshin 13:24, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Absolutely agree.--James Bond 13:49, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Disagree, Operation Enduring Freedom is about the umbrella operations, 3 to be exact. It would be inappopriate to merge it into (1) erasing the other 2 operations. --zero faults ^{|sockpuppets|} 00:36, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

My point was that we shouldn't split the actual narrative of the operations in Afghanistan between that page and this one. The Operation Enduring Freedom article should be written at a fairly global level, discussing all three operations (or just disambiguating between them, since all of them have articles in their own right); right now, it's basically a copy of this article with some details stripped out. Kirill Lokshin 00:40, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree that Operation Enduring Freedom should be expanded, but not merged obviously. --zero faults ^{|sockpuppets|} 00:41, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree the article with the propaganda title should be made into a redirect. Añoranza 04:29, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

So you feel the content relating to the 2 other operations should be discarded? OEF is not just about Afghanistan, it may serve you well to read the article before commenting further. --zero faults ^{|sockpuppets|} 04:31, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Please read what others write before you comment on it. Or don't you know what disambiguation means? Añoranza 04:42, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Another rude comment. I will not replying to you further here today because of this. --zero faults ^{|sockpuppets|} 04:43, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

This is also being discussed in the wrong place as the merge tag points to the talk page of OEF, therefore not all users may be able to find where this discussion is taking place. Can we move it over there? I will copy and paste everyones comments. --zero faults ^{|sockpuppets|} 12:28, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Removal of POV flag

I removed the POV flag from the template includer (Part of War on Terrorism). The flag is in the wrong place; the user who put it there argues that the term War on Terrorism is not a neutral term (the POV flag is already in place in the article concerned). Even if that were the case, it has no bearing on the neutrality of the statement "Part of the War on Terrorism", because it doesn't matter how you term the NATO anti-terror operations: Operation Enduring Freedom IS part of them. This has nothing to do with a personal point-of-view. Putting the flag there in the first place was a logical fallacy on part of the user who did so. Cheers, Something Wicked 21:06, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

I restored it. As the term is not neutral, it should not be used without comment or at least inverted commas. Añoranza 00:31, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

By the same token, would you argue that "Part of the American Civil War" is not neutral? The term—regardless of who invented it, and for what purpose—seems to be the one overwhelmingly used to name the conflict in question; are there other options you think we should consider? Kirill Lokshin 00:43, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

War of Northern Agression!! Seriously any problems with this term should be handled on the War on Terrorism page. --zero faults ^{|sockpuppets|} 00:55, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Using the term "war on terror" without inverted commas is clearly biased in favours of the US administration that most uses it. Also note that the article war on terror itself uses inverted commas and explains the propagandistic nature of the term. Añoranza 04:28, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

SO put the inverted commas and remove the POV tag, if that is truely the entirety of your debate. --zero faults ^{|sockpuppets|} 04:30, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, I will do that. Añoranza 04:42, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Its great when we can reach a compromise. Those POV tags were ugly. --zero faults ^{|sockpuppets|} 04:44, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

New article

Large parts of the "Taliban insurgency" part moved to new article Taliban insurgency--TheFEARgod 11:58, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

I reverted the removal of information from this article. Do we really need a new article? Dionyseus 20:23, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

This article is getting huge and the new article is a detached topic from this page. It's a different conflict going on there. Anyway, the new article exists, and you even deleted the link leading to it.--TheFEARgod 08:50, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

The article length seems appropiate to me. I do not believe it is a different conflict, the Taliban were never defeated, they simply went in hiding and reemerged when coalition troop strength weakened. I think the information you are trying to remove from this article belongs here, but you can include a link to your article. If you or someone can manage to summarize the information you are trying to remove from this article, I would support it. The section 'Coalition Response' contains very recent information that I find highly important and relevant for this article. Dionyseus 08:53, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

I would like to state that the U.S. invasion has ended in 2001-2002, the current operations are not part of the invasion (as the article name states)--TheFEARgod 13:47, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

whoops the article and talk page names are different. Ok keep the text here but continue workin on new page Taliban insurgency (see also Iraqi insurgency)--TheFEARgod 13:51, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Organizing article(s) on the recent Afghan conflict

I don't think the name of the article "United States invasion of Afghanistan" is appropriate if it describes the conflict in Afghanistan since 2002 (there are now many more factions). The problem is that the article has tended to creep into describing the years after 2002 as well, when it is more of multinational/Nato/UN mission mixed with what could be labelled a civil war.

I think it would make sense to create an overall article on the war in Afghanistan since 2001, where the US-led invasion was one phase. The Taliban insurgency (or whatever it should be called) could be another phase. Both could have separate more detailed articles.

What about this suggestion for organizing the article(s) on the most recent Afghan conflict?KarlXII 11:07, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

I thought the name was bad in the first place as it never was just the US invading. So I support a split as well since its pas tthe invasion portion unless such articles already exist. --zero faults ^{|sockpuppets|} 12:15, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Denmark

Needs an update ...I'll try Medico80 07:06, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Flag of Northern Alliance

I found it here, [1], can we use it or does it not qualify for fair use? I cant really find any information on it. ~Rangeley (talk) 20:31, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Oops, seems like its already uploaded, Image:Flag of Afghanistan 1992.gif. ~Rangeley (talk) 20:33, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

name

why that name? 2001? and it continued beyond that year...--TheFEARgod 16:30, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

i've changed the name to get someone's attention regarding the issue --TheFEARgod (Ч) 12:38, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

removal of un-needed stuff

Removed... < This does not happen in the case of the 2003 invasion of Iraq> Do to its irrelevancy of the diplomatic solutions Drew1369 22:06, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Nature of the coalition

Fairly minor edit, but thought I'd mention it here. The article states that the participating countries were listed in a rough order of contribution. A quick glance at this list shows this is obviously not the case. Austrailia, with its 300 soldiers was above the UK and France, both with thousands of soldiers participating. That list in general seems to need a bit of maintenance. Harley peters 21:27, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

My "vandalism" (explaination foir Bad Night guy)

"Please stop removing content from the article without explaining why. That is considered vandalism, and therefore, your edits will be reverted. Bad Night 02:34, 1 November 2006 (UTC)"

Are you crazy? This is considered improvement. For example,

• Osama bin Laden or Kabul or F-16 linked every times is against Wiki rules. At the other time, many other words are not linked at all in your version.

• Casulaties: who needs a number of US civilians (one!) allegedly killed - when there are other foreigners killed (and civilians are not combatants)? Why pointing out the US wounded from all of the coalition? Why attributing allegeld (and outdated) numbers of Afghan civilians to Taliban/al-Qaeda "combatants"? How if they were killed by Taliban/al-Qaeda? And, importantly, what are the sources and dates for the casaulties other than the coalition?

• How do you choose which coalition country should be, and which should be not? I for one am deeply offended when I don't find Poland. Seriously. It's also getting outright strange when you see Slovakians in the photoi, but not anywhere in the article. Come on.

• Various little corrections and addings, including more on ISAF and more in the See also section, as well as for (for example) poiunting out the civilian casaulties section is VERY outdated (2002!).

Difference: http://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=2001_war_in_Afghanistan&diff=84997138&oldid=84961197

As you see, I'm not "removing content" ANYWHERE. I'm changing (I belive for better) and adding content. I also just decided to add "Category:Wars of Canada", because of their high casaulties (second/third after US among the foreign forces).

Also, I conside myself maker of the Second Chechen War (and all of its subsarticles), if you would like to see what I think is well done article on the current conflict.

Oh, and al-Qaeda in Afghanistan needs a flag.

--HanzoHattori 07:51, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Restored contribution about US plans in July 2001 to attack by mid-October

The following was removed without explanation: The U.S. may have decided long before 9/11 to invade Afghanistan in October 2001. Senior U.S. officials told Niaz Naik, a former Pakistani Foreign Secretary, in mid-July 2001 that U.S. military action against Afghanistan would be commenced by the middle of October 2001 (BBC News, 18 September 2001, http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/1550366.stm last visited Nov. 5, 2006). Further, Mr. Naik reported that, based on the information he received from the senior U.S. officials, it was doubtful that the U.S. would abandon its plan to invade Afghanistan even if the Taleban immediately surrendered Bin Laden (BBC News, 18 September 2001, http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/1550366.stm last visited Nov. 5, 2006). I have restored it. --NYCJosh 17:16, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

It's just some unsubstained claims by a former Pakistani official. Pakistan supported Taliban before and at the time (to put it it mildly). All the US was doing there at the time was rather clumsy attempts to assassinate bin Laden and humanitarian assistance to civilians. --HanzoHattori 23:49, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Please check WP policy on reliable sourcing. A BBC story is definetly citable. If you personally wish not to believe it because it is largely based on the report of one Pakistan senior diplomat that is your perogative. You cannot deprive WP readers from deciding for themselves. --NYCJosh 00:32, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

It is citable, even if outdated and about lies of some guy who even has no article about him on Wikipedia at all (and he is mentioned only once, and guess where? in the 9/11 conspiracy theories). But I see it is VERY IMPORTANT for some unknown reason, so I edited it be more wikified and less laughable. Cheers. --HanzoHattori 18:18, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

I removed the passive voice "it was alleged" per WP policy. I also removed the editorializing someone inserted that the Pakistani diplomat's views are highly doubtful because Uzbekistan did not invade. First, per WP policy this is impermissible editorializing or OR. Second, just because some of the details of the US invasion later changed (or some coalition members dropped out from public and active participation) does not seriously undermine the credibility of the report.--NYCJosh 21:42, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

WP needs a policy on conspiracy theories... The BBC article is reliable sourcing, however futher investigation of the incident (http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/context.jsp?item=a072101berlin&scale=2#a072101berlin, http://cisac.stanford.edu/people/thomaswsimonsjr/, and espicially http://www.thenation.com/doc/20020722/web20020712) it becomes fairly clear that the meeting was informal, between former ex-officials from the countries involved. It is also clear that the military option referred to was a threat, not a promise. It is clear from the 9/11 commision report that the US had been considering all sorts of options to get Bin Laden, including missle strikes and special operations. I'm sure more extensive operations were also planned out (the US military, after all, loves to plan), but this doesn't equate to "invasion." I'm going to immediatly change the language to reflect this, and if I don't get feedback defending the value of this section within a few days I'll probably remove it.

image

Don't we have any images more representative of the war than that strange black and white photo of US soldiers on horseback? yandman 13:56, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Beats me. I thought the same --HanzoHattori 00:19, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

If anyone objects switching to AfghUSmillitaryDOD.jpg (commons), speak now or forever hold your peace... yandman 08:27, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Panjwaii

I'm not much of an expert on Wikipedia editing, but a question. Is there a way to add The Battle of Panjwaii to the links of battles available in the 2001 war in Afghanistan campaign box? It certainly is an important battle worthy of being included there, I would if I knew how. Thanks in advance.--Arsenous Commodore 22:35, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

All done.

Warrior on Terrorism

Your version is incorrect from the following resons:

• wrong interlinking - several times each phrase (Taliban even 9 times), while most others not linked at all
• completely random-chosen countries in the infobox, without any order (mine are above 1,000, by importance and alphabetical order)
• totally wrong casaulties
  • Afghan civilians are NOT Taliban nor al-Qaeda, it was and remains the Afghan civil war (and figures are outdated anyway - from early 2002);
  • Americans are not special and should be treated just like everyone else (wounded, very odd "1 civilian");
  • the figures other than the Coalition's are unreferenced (and probably outdated - should be "at least" or "minimum of", when provided sources)
• laughable 9-11 Conspiracy claim (see above), and this even unwikified

Would you vandalising this article at once, Mr. Warrior? --HanzoHattori 01:47, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

You keep removing citations previously approved by the rest of the editors. THAT is vandalism. Warrior on Terrorism 15:41, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Wow. What are you talking about? Show me (everyone), because now I say you are lieing.

The proof is here: [2] The only thing removed are (outdated, early 2002) figures for civilian casaulties highly incorrectly qualified in the infobox as Taliban & Co's, and these from a very strange sources anyway (www.unknownnews.net - a private website where you can read about "Bush's family Nazi connections", for example).

Also, the same guy is also trolling on the articles. See: [3] - all my edits and corrections reverted as "vandalism". If needed, everyone can check out what stands for "vandalism" according to the self-proclaimed Warrior on Terrorism and Vandalism. --HanzoHattori 01:31, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

The sources for those figures were approved by the editors, therefore, by removing them unilaterally you are vandalizing the article. The same goes for the 2004-2006 Waziristan conflict article. I am not "trolling" as you claim, I am reverting the senseless removal of content. Warrior on Terrorism 08:13, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

I see you don't understand, so I tell you again and as simply as possible: civilian casaulties are NOT CASAULTIES OF TALIBAN AND/OR AL-QAEDA. This is senseless. If they were members of these groups, they were no civilians. --HanzoHattori 20:27, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Have you forgotten that the Taliban was the Government of Afghanistan, and that therefore some of them were civilians? Warrior on Terrorism 02:34, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Mr. Silly Warrior, Taliban was not "the Government of Afghanistan", but just a rebel faction (the government was the Rabbani's Islamic State of Afghanistan). They always were rebels, and they remain now. Anyway, government officials of the side in the war are not civilians, but a military targets - themselves protected by their own military forces. Do you claim hundreds/thousands "Taliban civilians" and "al-Qaeda civilians" killed? --HanzoHattori 13:09, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

The Taliban WAS the Government of Afghanistan, as recognized by Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and the UAE. I suggest you do some research before coming here insulting people. Warrior on Terrorism 20:23, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

In Hanzo's defense, the recognition was short-lived and unique to those three countries; Rabbani still held the UN seat and the majority of the world's recognition. Most of the Western world, at least, from my readings on the subject, seemed to treat the Taliban with a bit of curiosity, wondering if they'd be able to unite the country effectively. However, once they started hosting bin Laden, world opinion gradually swung away from them. Thus, I'd agree with Hanzo that they were not considered, by most of the world, as the legitimate and complete rules of the country. Shigernafy 07:04, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

That doesn't matter. They ruled the country, thus, they were the Government, legitimate or ilegitimate. Warrior on Terrorism 07:31, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Oh. So? Btw, the word is "government", Mr. Warrior on Terrorism|Warrior on Terrorism. --HanzoHattori 10:35, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

On the other hand, they didn't rule the entirety of the country; the Northern Alliance put up a fight in parts of the country. That aside, you could say they controlled the country, but I would not go so far as to say they were the government. I suppose its an issue of semantics, though: you seem to equate control exclusively with government (ie, that's the only prerequisite to being a government), whereas I apparently am being more broad about the issue and would say that you require internal and external approval to be considered a government. In the end it comes down to perception: they certainly thought of themselves as the government of Afghanistan, but few others did. So for the purposes of this article, is their perception or the perception of others what we go by?

(I would still agree with Hanzo in that they were a faction vying for control of the country, with more success than most. They did control Kabul and thus inhabit the capital, but not only did they not control all of the country, not only was their rule decentralised and uncoordinated, but the vast majority of the world considered them a group of rebels competing for control with the final outcome not necessarily decided, which to me casts some doubt on their claims of government.)

That said, the whole point of the debate about their governance and legitimacy was - I think - to discuss whether some casualty statistics had a role in the article. I'm not a wikipro, but saying that removing information approved by the editors is vandalism seems odd to me - isn't everyone an editor? Does that mean changing anything I add or write is vandalism? I'm not trying to be a troll about this question; I honestly don't see how that line is reasonable with the millions of edits going on around here all the time.

What exactly is the issue at hand? Including dead Taliban in the "civilian casualties" count? The veracity of the count in general? I feel like we've gotten so sidetracked (and I admit I am certainly to blame for this as well) that the actual issue has become obscured by arguing about entrenched positions that won't get us anywhere fast.

Shigernafy 11:43, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Whether you like it or not, the Taliban indeed were the Government of Afghanistan. They even had Ministers, Governors, and Ambassadors, as well as armed forces (see List of Taliban leaders). The fact that they didn't control all of the country is irrelevant. Would you say that the current Iraqi Government is not the Government of Iraq, then? Anyway, the issue is about removing sources previously approved by a considerable amount of editors. Warrior on Terrorism 04:35, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Page protection

When either editor in a dispute removes a link to a respected source such as CBS News or CNN it constitutes vandalism. Please work out your differences through the Wikipedia:Dispute resolution process. Durova^Charge! 03:10, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Italian contingent

Italy has 1,900 troops in Afghanistan as part of the ISAF peacekeeping mission. Most of the Italians are based in Kabul, which is in the east, but 750 are serving in the western city of Herat. --HanzoHattori 19:59, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

The Italians are not fighting so your point is?.......

Actually, the Italians were involved in combat ops as part of OEF in 2003 and 2005. Chwyatt 10:06, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Maps

Are there any maps of advances and campaigns? I'm kind of a visual person. 129.186.237.93 16:30, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Time to unlock

User:Warrior on Terrorism was banned. --HanzoHattori 20:46, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Canadian Involvement

Why does Canada have its own section? Nothing against Canada, just that, if there is a section for Canada, why not Britain? Or the Dutch, also engaged in southern Afghanistan. There is after all a separate article for Canada in Afghanistan.

I think that would be a good idea. I believe Canada has its own page do to the high number of operations as compaired to other NATO Forses. Longbranch 00:20, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Canada has its own section because it is a major combatant in the war, and has been the leading coalition member in many operations. The article is not "US war in afghanistan", it is just about the war not one nation only.

Understand that, so therefore there should be a US section, a British section (Brits having also led), but how does someone decide who else? What nations are significant to warrant there own section? The Dutch have led the southern Afghanistan NATO operation, so what about a Dutch section? The Italians have led an OEF operation, so why not an Italian section? In much of the period covered by the Canadian section, Canada was an important contributor, but not the lead or commanding nation. Why not have a NATO section rather than Canada/Britain/Dutch sections? The article is in danger of lacking consistency.

I think the Canadian Involvement section should be replaced with a NATO Involvement section, with the detail of Canadian operations there (along with UK, Dutch and other forces - with more details of Canada in the ‘Canadian involvement in Afghanistan’ page). Thoughts? Chwyatt 14:08, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

The canadian involvement should stay the way it is. There is nothing wrong with it the way it is. Canada did lead NATO and ISAF. It should also remain its own section because Canada was under its OWN command until just recently in the last days of July 06.

Also, the reason I feel NATO should not have its own section is because the majority of NATO members in the country are not actively participating in the operations.

Should there be a British Involvement section then, as Britain has led ISAF and NATO southern Afghanistan, as well as being a major contributor? Also, does the logic to having a Canadian section also mean there should be a Dutch section, as the Dutch have led ISAF, led the European Participating Air Forces detachment and now lead NATO southern Afghanistan as well as being significant contributors. Chwyatt 11:36, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I think the information under the "Canadian Involvement" section is relevant and should be left in this article. However, I think that moving it to the "Canada" subsection under the "Nature of the Coalition" section is a good idea. Likewise, other countries' subsections there could be expanded as appropriate (I'm thinking UK and Netherlands). Also, why is there not a USA subsection there? --thirty-seven 18:52, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

What does anyone here think about giving a section like this one to all non-US major combatants. Meaning the Canadian(keeping it the way it is now) the UK and Netherlands?

Well Basically now Canada is a Major force in the war. That is why there is a section. It is like having World war 2 with a section on the USA. The USA was one of the major allies of WW2 and therefore there should obviously be a section about it in WW2. Anywho this is not WW2. The point is that any MAJOR allies should have an involved section, and as you can see they do. (RiseAgainst01 00:56, 7 December 2006 (UTC))

Oh and all I can think of why there isn't a USA subsection is because since the Iraq war there concentration of troops and effort went into Iraq...that's all I can think of since I don't really know why. (RiseAgainst01 01:24, 7 December 2006 (UTC))

I think that there's already enough about the United STates here - nothing against the States of course, but, this article makes it seem like the only two nations who are working in Afghanistan right now are the UK and USA - it oversells the mission for some countries, and underplays it for others - especially Canada, even in articles describing Canadian led operations. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.141.89.143 (talk) 02:50, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Added al-Qaeda Flag

I have added the al-Qaeda flag to the info box both on the combatant, and commander section. (RiseAgainst01 00:59, 7 December 2006 (UTC))

Alphabetically Organizing Combatants

Yeah I Reorganized the combatants in alphabetical order. (RiseAgainst01 01:07, 7 December 2006 (UTC))

Instead of reorganizing the Commanders Alphabetically, but putting them in sequence order of there country in the Combatants list (RiseAgainst01 01:19, 7 December 2006 (UTC))

Which I just realized was Alphabetical order haha. (RiseAgainst01 01:21, 7 December 2006 (UTC))

Germany is not a combatant and therfore should no longer be in the combatant list. THey are "peacekeeping" up north where the fighting isnt happening.

Sign your name with the for tildas from onow on. And why are my alphabetical changes put back to unaplphabetical???was it in some other specific order ??? (RiseAgainst01 23:30, 8 December 2006 (UTC))

Germany is in north Afghanistan doing peacekeeping duties. They arent a combatant. They shouldnt be on the combatant list in the campaign box. User:Hellopple 10 December 2006 {UTC}

Being a combatant, the definition of combatant, is open to interpretation. Germany is in the north on ‘peacekeeping’ duties and not the more aggressive NATO operations in the south, but they have been in fire fights, contacts, with al-Qaeda/Taliban in the past (and KSK special forces were part of Operation Enduring Freedom). And of course, to al-Qaeda/Taliban, Germany, indeed any foreigner, is a combatant. Chwyatt 20:49, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

There has been many many many nations using special operations in combat in afghanistan.. most of it was during the opening of the war. If we include germany for their KSK, then all nations who have had SOF in afghanistan and the list would draw away from the actual combatants (ones who are fighting daily). And if you go on what the Taliban and al-qaeda say then this article would be about how allah is helping them defeat all the infidels. User:Hellopple 8:12, 10 Dec 06. (UTC)

Indeed, I would not take the Taliban’s viewpoint as sound, but it is possible (but not my opinion) to view ISAF as ‘occupiers’ and even ‘traditional peacekeepers’ as combatants. And if a nation’s troops have been involved in actions, even if just in self defence, they could be viewed as combatants. Chwyatt 09:41, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Copperchair sockpuppets

This page is a favorite of Copperchair (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and his sockpuppets. Copperchair was placed on probation and banned from editing certain types of articles by the Arbitration Committee. He was blocked from editing Wikipedia for repeatedly violating his restrictions on editing. He was finally blocked for 366 days on March 12, 2006. At that point he began using sockpuppets to evade his ban. Below is a list of his sockpuppets. If new editors appear on this page with editing patterns that are similar to the sockpuppets below, please let me know on my talk page or by e-mail so that I can investigate fully.

1. Esaborio (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
2. Varese Sarabande (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
3. SPECTRE (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
4. Tony Camonte (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
5. The end is near (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
6. Don't fear the Reaper (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
7. Bad Night (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
8. Ossara (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
9. Warrior on Terrorism (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
10. Osaboramirez (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Thank you. TomTheHand 14:31, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Flags on the front page

I see Sweden’s flag (and commander) has made an appearance as a list of combatants at the top of the article. Now full respect to the Swedish forces in Afghanistan, but I don’t think anyone could consider Sweden a major player in this conflict.

So whose flags should appear in the Military Conflict box as a combatant?

I think on the one side the Taliban and al-Qaeda (the latter without a flag)

On the other, Afghanistan, the USA, NATO and the Northern Alliance (or instead of NATO, the significant non-US NATO forces engaged in combat ops, namely Britain, Canada and the Netherlands (the Dutch having taken over from Canada in the south). I think there is a case for Australia, even France and Germany...but not Sweden. Chwyatt 20:04, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Beh-nam put the US forces first. This needs to be settled, once and for all. Really it should be Afghanistan, Northern Alliance and NATO (underwhich could be the US, UK, Canada, Netherlands, France..... and so on. Put the main players there, the rest come later. Longbranch 04:26, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

No, The US, Canada and the UK and the Dutch should not be included in the same spot as the French and the others. This being because Canada the UK and the Dutch are actually willing to fight, whereas the others are not.

Whilst the French could do a lot lot more, the French are a combatant. French Mirage 200D close air support aircraft supported the initial OEF operation and a French infantry detachment deployed to Mazar-i Sharif in 2002. French aircraft returned in 2006 and French special forces have frequently deployed to Afghanistan on combat operations, separate from ISAF. It is inaccurate to say France is not a combatant. Its just that their contributions have not been good enough (imo).

I don’t think the French flag should be on the article as, whilst they are a combatant, they are not as significant as the US/UK/Can/Dutch. I think NATO’s flag should be up instead of UK/Canada/Netherlands as UK/Canada/Dutch forces operate under NATO command whilst some US forces operate outside NATO command. The NATO flag would include other small combatants like Estonia and Denmark involved in combat ops.

No, Canada should not be taken off the list of combatants, because it has only recently (Aug 1 06) come under NATO command. Previously it was fighting independently.

I think the US flag should go before the Afghans, because whilst Afghan forces outnumber US forces, the Americans are ‘running the show’ (so to speak). Chwyatt 09:38, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Is it worth having seperate boxes for the invasion and fighting the insurgancy? I found it a bit confusing to see that the invasion forces included the Northern Alliance and Afghanistan (was it invading itself?). The same seems to be true for the forces involved (did they invade or have they joined since? Were they / Are they there under Nato or Individual governments? etc). I think it would be more accurate to consider this as 2 conflicts with no clear boundary of when one started and the other ended. What do other people think?? CaptinJohn 12:08, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

As the name of this article has changed from “Invasion of Afghanistan” to “War in Afghanistan”, I think that overcomes that problem. But I think this is still one war/campaign and as this is a campaign where some nations have joined and some have left and levels of commitment change, what flags go in the box does become inevitably problematic. Chwyatt 14:42, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

I beleave all the 49 countries should be invovled because even if they had only 100 troops they are still part of the conflict. —Preceding unsigned comment added by ConnorIBurnett (talk • contribs) 14:46, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Errors in article

The stated purpose is incorrect. (The officially-stated purpose of the invasion was to target al-Qaeda members, and to punish the Taliban government in Afghanistan which had provided support and haven to al-Qaeda.) The actual mission statement was "to destroy al-Queda and deny them sanctuary and freedom of movement within Afghanistan".

In addition, the Uzbekistan section is misleading. The Uzbek airbase, K2, was used for support activities and for deployment and C2 of Special Forces into all of Afghanistan except for the Khandahar region. There were no significant humanitarian efforts arising from K2 as is stated in the article.

69.138.42.59 04:23, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

CIA

Hey. It seems to be widely accepted that the Afgan invasion by the U.S. was set-up and organized by the CIA for more than 1 month prior to the Military's invasion on Oct. 12. It is supposedly one of the biggest and most expensive CIA operations in history, with CIA among the first American casualties. Some have called it a CIA war with the Defense Dept. as backup... Can someone with a better knowledge than me please write the CIA involvement into the article? Thanks. 216.67.155.40 03:44, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Separate sections for Canada, Britain, Dutch - Article too long – Various edits

I don’t think it is a good idea to have separate sections for different countries (as per a previous edit) operating under NATO control in the south since 2006 for two reasons. Firstly it’s starting to look a mess. Maybe the detail should be put in separate British and Canadian ops in Afghanistan articles.

Secondly the distinctions can be artificial. Dutch forces supporting Canadians; Canadians supporting Brits; Brits supporting Canadians. For consistency, in line with the rest of the article, sections (in my opinion) should be by date and operation order, not separate countries.

Also I don’t see what warrants a separate sub-section about Canada during Operation Anaconda or ISAF. For consistency there would have to be separate sub-sections for other countries involved in Operation Anaconda. I have not deleted, just moved the bits about Canada to the Operation Anaconda sub-section and NATO section. Again detail should probably be in the main Operation Anaconda and ISAF articles.

Also as the article is a little too long, I have removed duplications in the ‘Coalition response’ subsection and the ‘2006 NATO’ sub-section. Operation Medusa was introduced at least three times in separate sections and the new NATO mission twice. I think one combined-coalition and one Canadian photo is enough.

The “Nature of the coalition” section is a duplication of the “Afghanistan War order of battle”, “War on Terrorism: Allies” article and ISAF and OEF articles, and due to article being to long, has been moved.

This article is down from 72 kilobytes to 61 kilobytes. The wikipedia recommendation is ...readers may tire of reading a page much longer than about 6,000 to 10,000 words, which roughly corresponds to 30 to 50 KB of readable prose. Maybe it should be split in two

War in Afghanistan (2001–2005) War in Afghanistan (2006-)

Thoughts? Chwyatt 11:17, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, I have to disagree about having it all in one "blurb." Putting the different nations actions in their own section under the NATO heading makes it much easier to find info and to read knowing who who are reading about.

I completely agree with Chwyatt.Sijo Ripa 21:25, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Canadian Commander

Isn't the Canadian commander Rick Hillier now? Somone please answer my question. RiseAgainst01 22:59, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

General Hillier was commander of the ISAF from october 2003 until February 2005, when he was promoted to Chief of the Defence Staff(CinC Canadian armed forces). So the answer to your question is yes. Raoulduke47 20:39, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

The answer is NO... Rick Hillier is the commander of the entire CF (the equivalent of a CEO) . Not the commander of Canadians in theatre.

You wanna like get refrences and such? RiseAgainst01 00:32, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

2006: NATO in southern Afghanistan – new article

This article was getting very big, far bigger than the recommended wikipedia length. As other phases of the war had separate articles, I thought the NATO mission (of which there is more detail that could go on), warranted its own article. Also no doubt the nature of operations and nations involved in Afghanistan in 2007 may well change. I have called it Coalition combat operations in Afghanistan in 2006 to recognise that not all western forces (in particular US) operate under NATO control and to exclude ISAF forces in the north not involved in combat operations. Chwyatt 12:39, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

OEF Casualties

There is a difference of opinion on the number of casualties for the war. Rather than continuing to revert/edit, I propose to keep 190.10.0.111's edits in place until we get more clarification. I wasn't aware that my source was listing all OEF casualties vs just the Afghanistan casualties. Publicus 19:33, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Afghanistan becoming a failed state

I have added a section to the timeline of the war discussing the risk of Afghanistan becoming a failed state. In my research on Afghanistan, the issue of becoming a failed state surfaced repeatedly so it seemed important to add to this entry. I'm not sure if this is the best place for this information, so please let me know if you have comments.Midwestmax 21:35, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

I think it makes more sense as its own section, as it doesn't quite fit the preceding chronology cleanly. I've made this chagne. SlipperyN 00:39, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Section on drug trade

I plan to add a section on drug trade as it relates to the conflict. If you have thoughts about how to go about this, let me know--I'll make the edits in the next day or so. SlipperyN 00:40, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Norway

Is not Norway missing on the participant list? User:Axezz

It is missing, but should not be added, imo. Norway has made important contributions for a nation its size (F-16s, special forces, contributions to ISAF and humanitarian aid). But inevitably for a small nation, its contribution is small compared to the overall force.

Having a list of every nation would just be messy and unnecessary. The list of combatants should stick to ‘significant’ contributors. There is a link to and others and more details of coalition contributions should, imo, go there. There are pages to go into details of coalition contributions.

Operation Enduring Freedom - Afghanistan: Allies Operation Enduring Freedom, 2001-2003

Coalition combat operations in Afghanistan in 2006 NATO expansion in 2006

International Security Assistance Force for coalition forces in Afghanistan as part of ISAF.

Afghanistan War order of battle for the current disposition of coalition forces in Afghanistan.

Chwyatt 08:44, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

This is not acceptable. This is an historic record of events and we can't simplify it like that. Norway is one of the largest contributors compared to it's population and THAT is how one count this. Norwegian specialforces has been invloved since December 2001 and in the first few years Norwegian specialforces were the ones with the most hours in the war theater and amount of missions. They were the only ones who did'nt have to be lifted out of the wartheater because of the harsh climate etc. Mortyman (talk) 00:16, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Reason for replacing French and German flags

Unlike the US, Britain, Canada and the Netherlands; France and Germany have not led offensive military operations as part of either OEF or NATO in the south.

France and Germany have been significant contributors to ISAF, but the ISAF flag is represented. Britain, Canada and the Netherlands have also made significant contributors to ISAF but have also made significant contributions to the more intensive contributions in the south of the country. For that operation, French and German contributions have been a lot smaller (small numbers of special forces and aircraft), and no more significant than nations like Estonia, Denmark, Norway or Portugal (amongst others). Chwyatt 08:35, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Having a list of every nation would just be messy and unnecessary. The list of combatants should stick to ‘significant’ contributors. There is a link to and others and more details of coalition contributions should, imo, go there. There are pages to go into details of coalition contributions.

Operation Enduring Freedom - Afghanistan: Allies Operation Enduring Freedom, 2001-2003

Coalition combat operations in Afghanistan in 2006 NATO expansion in 2006

International Security Assistance Force for coalition forces in Afghanistan as part of ISAF.

Afghanistan War order of battle for the current disposition of coalition forces in Afghanistan.

Yes the word significant is open to debate. I would say that the Afghans and the Americans are obvious flags to go on the list. ISAF also, and if a nation’s main contribution is part of the ‘peacekeeping’ component of ISAF, then they are covered.

If they have provided ‘significant’ troop numbers (at least a battalion) to the more intensive combat operations in the south, then that nation should be highlighted.

Chwyatt 08:51, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

It is clear that France and Germany refused a strong involvement in the latest operations in the south. But I am not sure what objective reason would dictates such a focus of the article on the south and on the recent fights. The article is War in Afghanistan (2001–present), not War in the South of Afghanistan in the recent period. The limited support of these countries for this part of operations is already emphasized in the dedicated articles. As for the contribution of France to the conflict in general (EOF and ISAF):

French commitment to OEF has been strong and resolute since the beginning of the operation.[...] In addition to its OEF commitment, France is one of the main contributors to the NATO International Security Assistance Force. US Central Command Web site. (and considering that France is included in ISAF is just plain wrong as its commitment in OEF is not NATO related)

US CENTCOM will be diplomatic and applaud the French contribution, like it does with other contributors. Also, whilst ISAF is not part of OEF, to their (and others) eyes, ISAF fits in with OEF in a broad sense, in making an Afghanistan without the Taliban.

The majority of French forces are not on active combat ops against the Taliban. France has made a contribution to OEF and/or active combat operations, separate from ISAF, but not as big a contribution as others (US, UK, Canada, Dutch). Its current contribution (excluding the PRTs) are a few Rafale aircraft and an occasional special forces deployment. Chwyatt 17:08, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

+ The discussion here is a bit prejudiced as I see it. The article is named "War in Afghanistan (2001-present)", and that includes in my humble opinion every combat operation during that whole period and not only of 2006 and 2007. The focus of the article is a little bit unbalanced concerning this aspect. Additionally, the reference to Enduring Freedom Allies as combattants is worthless when for example Canada and Netherlands who do not take part in OEF at the moment are listed as combattants, too, but operated within ISAF operations. By the way, every foreign soldier in Afghanistan is, regardless what his role is, a combattant by international law. It's not up to an encyclopedia to bring this to a political level. eurogoofy

+ Added flags of Nations which do contribute or have contributed troops to combat operations of ISAF or OEF-A and which are/were known to are/were involved in hostilities, too. Corrected minor other points, such as ranking in the commanders list. eurogoofy

I agree with eurogoofy. This argument could continue now, but the actual solution in the info box is the best one. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 217.95.222.67 (talk) 15:48:04, August 19, 2007 (UTC)

The combatant flags currently (2 Jan 08) are

• Afghanistan
• Northern Alliance
• United States
• United Kingdom
• Canada
• Netherlands
• (others)
• ISAF

This seems right. The Afghans and the Americans have done the bulk of the fighting, with significant support since 2006, including overall command of combat operations in the south, from the UK, Canada and the Netherlands. ISAF covers everyone else. Chwyatt (talk) 15:52, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Commanders (enemy forces)

I see this is for the insurgency period. I'd like to remind they lost numerous leaders during the original campaign 2001-2002. For example, Juma Namangani (the first IMU leader) was killed in 2001. But the IMU isn't even listed (yes, I know NOW they're operating in Pakistan). --HanzoHattori 11:00, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Christian crosses on Muslim combatants

Please refrain from using Christian crosses on deceased Muslim combatants. There is an alternative that looks like a generic square tombstone or something. Thanks Publicus 13:18, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Hi Publicus. The alternative you used to replace the crosses looks like question marks to me, that's not better, is it? Question marks look more like we don't know what the status of these guys are, and that's not good. Couldn't you find "a generic square tombstone or something"? That would have been much better. Question marks usually don't signify death. Manxruler 15:04, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

They look like questions marks to you? That's weird. They look like little tombstones to me. The symbol I replaced it with should show up as a tombstone. Kirill made the new template with the code "|alt=yes" added to the regular  † tag. Can you see the differences here? old template  † --- new template  (KIA) Publicus 15:51, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, the old template is a cross, allright, but the new one looks like one of these ?, just underlined. Maybe its my computer or something, I'm kinda baffled... Manxruler 05:03, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

That is weird. I would ask one of the admins for some help on this, it sounds like your browser is having problems reading the code. You could ask Kirill since it's his template. Publicus 14:14, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Question marks here too. --HanzoHattori 23:48, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Does this help ☠ ({{unicode|☠}})? --Leo Laursen ( T | C ) 08:46, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

It sure did. Thanks, Leolaursen. Manxruler 18:38, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Kirill made the change in the template. Please give some feedback to him (User talk:Kirill_Lokshin or Template talk:KIA), is it better or still questionmarks? --Leo Laursen ( T | C ) 14:39, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

It seems to me the argument against 'stated purpose' hinges entirely on the absurd proposition that all other views on the purpose of the invasion constitute 'fringe' theories. Despite the fact a movie expressing these theories grossed $220 million. Despite the fact that 43% of Americans believe their own government is covering up facts about the official pretext for the war.[4] You are making a very weak, tortuous argument in a desperate attempt to cling onto this articles pro-administration POV, and making edits with 'see talk' descriptions as if you have actually won the argument! This is highly antisocial behaviour, and I am considering taking action to bring in outside mediation here since you clearly won't discuss this properly. Damburger 17:54, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

By all means, I invite you to bring in an administrator to mediate. "There was a piece of media about a fringe theory" is not an excuse to give undue weight to any view, nor is the fact that a percent of Americans believe something reason to advocate POV material in an article. According to this article, 55% of Americans believe that Humans were created in their current form with no evolution involved- that does not mean that we are free to add weasel words to the Evolution article saying that "According to evolution scientists, evolution is such and such". The consensus and all reliable, editorially-sound publications agree the actions of the Taliban government in Afghanistan and their involvement with al Qaeda to be the main motivation for the US going to war, and neither you nor Mr.Grantevans2 have provided me with any reliable sources to cast this into doubt and thus require a disclaiming statement such as the one that you have reverted to in the article. --ForbiddenWord 20:06, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Who is leading U.S. forces now?

Because Franks ceased long time ago. --HanzoHattori 07:53, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Air Corridors to/from Afghanistan?

Does anyone know how NATO combat aircraft get to and from Afghanistan. I assume the carrier based planes fly across Pakistan, but this is just a guess. Also, how do military supplies get into Afghanistan?

Dubai is a major hub for UN (UNAMA) and coalition air contact. Don't know about whether they fly over Iran or make a detour down and then thru Pakistani airspace though. Buckshot06 21:54, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Turkey, Azerbaijan, Turkmenistan, the UAE, Pakistan, Kyrgyzstan, Uzbekistan and Tajikistan, have all given coalition forces landing and overflight rights.

Some supplies come through Turkey and fly north of Iran, through Azerbaijan, Turkmenistan, landing if required. Other supplies arrive through the UAE, and those fly through Pakistan, going around Iran via the south.

Most of the heavy stuff, like fuel, comes overland through Pakistan. Hudicourt (talk) 14:37, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

USA government pov permeates the article

Why is there insistance on presenting the US governments's pronouncements as fact? i.e. regarding the purpose of the invasion. Many people believe the purpose was related to oil pipelines so why the insistence that the article parrot US government's "stop terrorism" as the 1 and only motive? Mr.grantevans 12:59, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

If an entity says "I am going to war because of X", and subsequently goes to war, unless there are reliable sources stating otherwise, NPOV insists that X be listed as the reason for the war. To state otherwise via the use of weasel words or whatever without reliable sources would be to attempt to skew the article or insinuate that there is wrongdoing. I know that there are some who have and do, but it's not enough to just say or imply "just because the government says X, we can't trust it". The effort of Wikipedia is to create an encyclopedia, and creating original research like that in the article runs counter to the project's effort. --ForbiddenWord 14:47, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Comment: By that methodology our articles on 9/11 would have to accept the reasons given by alQueda as to why they attacked. Could we have a lead paragraph about 9/11 which said: "The purpose of the 9/11 attack was to reciprocate for US bases being established on Saudi holy land"? I'm sure we would have a qualifier in that sentence even if the entity's motive were to make it to the first paragraph. My point is that by accepting the White House's statement of motive as fact we are skewing the article. Mr.grantevans 14:56, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Firstly, one reliable source springs instantly to mind: The movie Fahrenheit_9/11 by Michael Moore. Agree with him or not, a film of such high profile is certainly notable enough to be a reliable source. Secondly - the idea that governments always do things for the reasons they state is so absurdly naive that it makes me suspect you are trolling. 'The stated aim' is not a weasel statement. There is considerable public debate on the US governments aims in entering Afghanistan, and to have the narrative voice say their aim is what they said it was, is to unfairly dismiss that debate. It certainly isn't original research.

I've seen enough edit wars recently to last me a year, so please do not redo your edit until further discussion has taken place here. At the moment its two against one, and whilst that isn't much of a consensus it should be good enough for you until someone else comments on this. Damburger 01:52, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

I would like to mention that Osama and the Taliban admitted to plotting to destroy the WTC and the pentagon so that is the reason we are in Afgahnistan. I believe your arguments might carry more weight if they were directed towards the war in Iraq, which by the way is the argument within the movie Fehrenheit 911, not Aghanaistan. On a side note as someone who was in the Pentagon when the plane hit it I would like to add...Fooy on you.--Kumioko 02:29, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Though I agree that the government doesn't always do as they say for the reasons they say, I Concur with K, the reasons for entering Afghanistan have never really been in question, several large planes crashing into building and the like, its the Iraq conflict that generally stirs debate.--Langloisrg 03:12, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

As Mr.grantevans pointed out, there were economic reasons for going into Afghanistan that existed prior to 9/11. Michael Moore and others have suggested these reasons were more of a motivation that going after Bin Laden. This is not the place to have a debate about that, I'm merely pointing out that the debate exists, and as the anti-government side of it has been represented in an Oscar-winning movie, it is certainly notable enough to make it into the article as a source. Damburger 10:41, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

So Michael Moore is selling some Truth to the masses. That is not a valid reason to make it appear as if the only people who attribute the war to 9/11 is one administration. Please do not marginalize reality to cater for fringe theories. Weregerbil 12:28, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

I didn't even comment on whether or not I approved of Moore's theories or not. And I'd like to point out that a film peddling 'fringe' theories does not gross $220 million. Even if you hate him and think he is a crack, he is certainly not 'fringe', he is very much mainstream.

In any case, the phrase 'stated aim' is not weasel. Its a very common phrase used in these circumstances by people who agree and disagree with the said aim, and its speaker. Damburger 15:37, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't think the amount of money made by someone is proof of the validity of his ideas. I am not very familiar with Mr. Moore's work; I have seen something he did and it seemed like a lot of exaggerated half-truths engineered to make the viewer more ignorant about reality. Surely entertaining; and scandals (even fabricated ones) sell well, but "best selling" doesn't make something true. Seeing a film does not equate to believing what it says. If many people see a film about flat earth, that does not automatically make flat earthism a mainstream theory. There are any number of popular films and TV shows, yet the actors in them are not encyclopedic sources. Weregerbil 16:11, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

$220 million represents a very large number of people going to see his film. If such a significant audience went to see a movie about the Earth being flat, the flat Earth theory would require a more prominent position in wikipedia. Something can't be 'fringe' if its believed by a significant portion of the population. Damburger 16:42, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Seeing a film does not equate with believing every word in a film. We do not have prominent articles detailing genuine historical incidents of a love affair on a ship and a bunch of hairy-footed (feeted?) creatures saving the world from unspeakable evil. Most people can tell apart reality and professional wrestling. Also, peoples' beliefs do not equal reality. The majority of polled Americans say an electron is bigger than an atom. Google will find you statistics on how many percent of Americans belive in angels, ghosts, the devil, witches, astrology, how often the Earth revolves around the Sun (or, according to their belief, vice versa)... Wikipedia is about reality, not about all the gunk that movie audiences may or may not believe. Weregerbil 18:09, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

What utter nonsense. You are giving such ridiculously specious examples I don't even know where to start. None of the films you mentioned were documentaries. They didn't operate under the pretence of being factual. In any case, your argument that a multi-million dollar grossing, oscar winning film represents a 'fringe' viewpoint is so self-evidently asinine I can't even believe I'm having to refute it. Damburger 22:59, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Please remain WP:CIVIL. "Operating under the pretense of being factual" does not equate with "presenting a widely held view". Professional wrestling operates on the pretense of being factual, yet it is entertainment fiction, and believing it is real is pretty fringe (AFAIK, that phenomenon does not exist where I live). Weregerbil 09:49, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Oh please, you are really clutching at straws here, suggesting that almost everyone who went to see that movie didn't believe the theories it presenting. Apply Occam's Razor. In any case, the movie is notable to have its own wikipedia page so it is certainly notable to be mentioned as one viewpoint. You haven't got a leg to stand on. Damburger 11:46, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I still don't subscribe to the theory that seeing a movie is the same as believing what it says. Or that believing something makes it true. Weregerbil 12:45, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

What rubbish. Wikipedia isn't here to decide whats true, its to report peoples opinions on the matter. Your attempt to paint anything other than US goverment policy as 'fringe' is absolutely ridiculous. Damburger 14:44, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia actually does not exist to report peoples' opinions. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. It reports verifiable reliable sources, not random opinions. As usual, your interpretation of what my "attept" is, is incorrect. I don't give a damn about US government policy; it's not the policy of my government and is of little concern to me. I am concerned about blatant attempts to misrepresent reality. Incidentally, please see WP:CIVIL. Weregerbil 15:53, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't think we should cater to any theories whether fringe or non-fringe and I certainly don't think history supports an assumption of truthfulness to what any government says. We should simply state what is known; and what is known is that the US government has stated certain reasons for invading Afghanistan and only the people within the Pentagon and White House's inner circle know whether or not the stated motive for public consumtion is the true and sole motive. It might be or it might nor be and it seems to me that reality is marginalized when any government's statements as to motive are accepted as being the true and complete motive. To me (and pardon if the analogy is melodramatic) it would be similar in protocol to an article stating as fact: " Hitler invaded Czechoslovakia to free the people of Sudetland ". Mr.grantevans 15:12, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

(Are we dangerously close to Godwin's Law here? :-) Saying that would indeed be weird. Because the preponderance of sources say otherwise. Per WP:WEIGHT uncommon theories are not to be given undue attention. And claiming that the US government is the only source making the 9/11-war connection, and are the only people using the term "war on terrorism", is very much untrue; are we at least in agreement on that? Weregerbil 16:11, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

We can agree on that but that is not the point. It is a false choice to have to choose motives put forth by either a government or a movie maker. Reality is that no one really knows what anyone else's motives are about anything and especially not when it comes to invasions and wars. It is unnecessary for an encyclopedia to promote the stated motives of a government as if they are fact; the motives stated for such an important event must be attributed or left unmentioned at all which I think would be best. It is also not in any way taking sides to include the words "stated aim". Excluding the alternative motives as suggested by Moore and others gives,I think, the article quite a bit of skewing but I am willing to live with that exclusion I suppose. The other thing is that Wikipedia is supposed to be a global enterprise (I think) and I wonder whether the majority of the world's population believes that the Afghan invasion was only "in response" to 9/11? Just because that is likely the majority anglo/american interpretation of motive does not mean it has majority acceptance globally. Mr.grantevans 22:52, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

I am not "anglo/american". I see 9/11 systematically reported as the reason for the Afghanistan/Taleban war. Claiming that the US government are the only people saying so is simply untruthful. If you want some global perspective, check out the other 20 versions of this article in different languages (links in "in other languages" at the left of the article). From the languages I can decipher, the only one trying to make other claims is this one. Weregerbil 09:49, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry if my words are not clear; I'll try again; 1:I never thought or said any particular person is anglo/american.2:I am not claiming anything at all and certainly have not said that the US government is the only people saying something. I am simply saying that motives should be attributed to the entity officially expressing the motive which in this case would be the US government justifying the US led invasion of Afghanistan. Please have a look at how we address the motive for the 9/11 attacks [5]. I am simply saying we should address the motive for the Afghanistan invasion in the same way, by attributing the motive to the primary entity expressing the motive. Mr.grantevans 13:11, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

<- left shift

"Attributing" something that is generally accepted makes it appear as if only one small bunch of people has a dissenting opinion. It is not useful to "attribute" every single sentence and fact to someone. Please don't marginalize reality and mislead the reader. Weregerbil 05:25, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Weregerbil,I don't understand your 1st. sentence in your last post.Perhaps the wording is off? and are you saying that the US government's statements of motive for the invasion are an absolute "reality"? Mr.grantevans 12:46, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

As to the first sentence: an encyclopedia article for fish does not start with "According to the U.S. Department of Wildlife and Fisheries of the Bush administration, fish are cold-blooded aquatic vertebrates." That diminishes the value of information to the reader, as he must constantly wonder whether the nature of a fish is a fringe theory put forward by a small minority, and fish are really a government conspiracy. Second, your interpretation of what I am saying is incorrect. I am saying that the motives are widely reported by pretty much all reliable sources; making it appear as if they aren't is misleading and untruthful. Take a look at WP:RS and WP:WEIGHT. Weregerbil 13:05, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

From what you are now saying I think your first sentence is a misspeak and should say something like ..."as if a small bunch of people has that accepted(rather than "dissenting") opinion". Regarding the fish analogy, the source would have no reason to not fully and accurately disclose their position; any government invading a country might well have reason not to fully disclose their motives for the invasion. Also, I've seen nothing to indicate that the US government's stated invasion motive is generally accepted throughout the world, and certainly not in regards to the ongoing 6 year war. Also, I can not understand why you keep referencing other (fringe etc.) theories. No such theories have been put forward by my edits. Those references seem like a Strawman deflection; albeit an unintentional deflection most likely. Mr.grantevans 13:52, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Regarding the original post here, does it lend credence to the U.S. governments stated claim that the UK, Canada and other governments/ NATO joined forces with them to invade Afghanistan to fight Taliban/ terrorists? I have not seen many governmental or International organisations jumping on board and publicly stating that they agree with Moore's movie, but I have not looked, either. Also, if we are including statements from Moore's film, do we then need to reference FahrenHYPE 9/11 as counterbalance?--167.4.1.41 (talk) 04:45, 23 December 2007 (UTC)jrb

Oil and other motivation theories

Sorry to butt in here, but this argument is full of red flags. The idea that the US instigated September 11th, or that the US invaded Afghanistan for oil is still, according to Wikipedia, a fringe theory. It might be worth noting that Afghanistan has no petroleum. --Hojimachong^talk 17:51, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

The theories that the US instigated September 11th, or that the US invaded Afghanistan for oil were not mentioned before and were not part of this discussion as far as I can tell. I'd suggest Hojimachong's introduction of these theories should be a under a new heading although I have seen no indication that anyone wishes to discuss those 2 topics or introduce them into the article. I could add that I think the oil theory might be pipeline related rather than in the ground related but I am not interested in discussing that nor any theories myself. Mr.grantevans 01:24, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Why are you citing WP:FRINGE? It does not anywhere suggest that alternatives to the US-government line represent 'fringe' theories. I'm finding these shallow arguments tedious now, please stop. Damburger 17:57, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Damburger, are you arguing that since Moore's film grossed $220 million and was seen by lots of people that it should be cited as fact? Or at least used a reference? I can't even begin to point out all the extremely dangerous directions this takes us in. Let's see... based on your argument, the Star Wars saga is probably codified somewhere in stone with records to back it up, the love story on Titanic was absolute fact, and Harry Potter's magical universe is probably accessible from King's Cross Railway station in London. How many pundits, experts, and scholars--LEFT OR RIGHT--actually support his theory? The question here is whether or not respected, expert, trusted, and VERIFIABLE sources back up the argument, not whether the masses buy into it. The Wikipedia project is a dangerous one where anyone can write history. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.205.28.104 (talk) 22:57, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Separate section dealing with motive

Perhaps we should look at the 9/11 article[6] as an example of how to deal with motive; i.e. as a separate sub-topic within the article. Perhaps we should address the motive for the Afghanistan invasion in a similar way. If not, why not? It seems to me that motive goes to the heart of events in general and conflicts in particular and the 9/11 attacks entry has a reasonably extensive section dealing with motive. This invasion and war deserve the same attention to motive, at least in my view. Mr.grantevans 12:56, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

The article on 9/11 and this article provide an imperfect parallel. The section at the link you provided is almost entirely sources that attempt to match up the actions of 9/11 with the stated or assumed aims of al Qaeda. The organization in question at that article is (obviously) not a large public entity like the US Government- as such, they do not have a large apparatus for speaking to the public arena. As such, there has been a sizable amount of mainstream political research into the aims and intentions of al Qaeda's actions leading up to and on 9/11, so it is an extremely well-sourced section of which there is a plethora of reliable information- that is to say, the section reflects the wider consensus in the political world for the motivation and reasons for the 9/11 attacks. On the other hand, this article reflects what is the mainstream and consensus view for the reasoning behind the war in Afghanistan, which is generally agreed upon to be the reasons that the US Government stated, as in the article. If there are notable, reliable (nonfringe and nonquack) public personalities who report and doubt the consensus reason for the invasion of Afghanistan, it should not be hard to come up with some reliable sources to add an alternate motivation section to this article. It is important, though, to remember that under NPOV guidelines that such views must be given only due weight, which is my objection to insisting the addition of a clause that calls the consensus opinion on the motivation into question. --ForbiddenWord 14:56, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

I disagree with you that there exists what you call a "consensus reason for the invasion of Afghanistan." Mr.grantevans2 18:54, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

It's fine that you disagree, but I can cite numerous reliable sources that assert that the invasion of Afghanistan followed refusal by the Taliban to comply with United States demands regarding al Qaeda.[7] If you do not back up your assertions with reliable sources, there is no substance to your objection. --ForbiddenWord 19:44, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

I imagine you are aware there are numerous (likely thousands) reliable sources outlining US foreign policy and economic interests in Afghanistan going back long before 9/11; in fact decades before. I don't think it would be productive to start a contest of reliable sources in this regard. I think the onus is upon you to show that a "consensus" exists supporting your opinion before the article is mandated to present the US government's stated motive as if that is the factually true and sole motive for the invasion of Afghanistan. Mr.grantevans2 22:31, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

I believe that the onus is upon you to show that what was stated is not true- you're the one that wants to change the status quo, give me a reason why. In reading through sources for the background yesterday, all reliable sources that I was able to find stated simply that the invasion was undertaken in response to the Afghanistani government's refusal to comply with US demands. I have no reliable reason to doubt the sources that I did find unless you give me one. --ForbiddenWord 12:17, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

The reason you are now giving here above"Afghanistani government's refusal to comply with US demands" is different from the one you just put in the article "in response to the September 11, 2001 attacks". Which is it that you think is a general consensus? I appreciate your efforts here but I really think the article would be better if a separate motive section was created similar to the one in the 9/11 attack article. Just to make mention in passing of some general impression does not do the issue of motive justice. The other possibility is to not mention motive at all and I would endorse that approach as well. Mr.grantevans2 16:55, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree with you! There should be a section detailing motives. However, what I've been trying to get at above is I don't think that there is wide enough consensus that the primary motive of the Afghanistan invasion is far enough from the US Gov't's stated aim to merit the inclusion of an "allegedly" disclaimer in the introduction. By all means, I encourage you to write a section up! I know that all wars are hotly debated topics, and I would by no means oppose a section looking into reasons for the war in Afghanistan. --ForbiddenWord 17:02, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

That's a good idea. I'll try to write a section up. Mr.grantevans2 01:46, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Incorrect claims of opposing viewpoints being 'Fringe'

Its starting to get annoying. An opinion voiced by an Oscar-winning, $220 million grossing movie IS NOT FRINGE. Intellectually dishonest references to WP:FRINGE are a plague on this talk page, and many others. Claiming that Michael Moore represents a fringe viewpoint is, given his proven popularity, and extraordinary claim - but those making it have not provided us with extraordinary evidence. Damburger 23:34, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm not convinced that everything that Mr. Moore says is automatically mainstream. Or that every conspiracy theory that a movie mentions in passing automatically becomes accepted by a large portion of the people who happen to see it. Perhaps I am overly optimistic about peoples' ability to exercise media criticism? I hope Wikipedia does not need to become a soapbox echoing everything that Mr. Moore happens to say, in a movie or otherwise. Weregerbil 16:00, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, you have made up your mind already and will not be convinced that anything but the public statements of politicians you support is not fringe. This really wasn't addressed at you. Damburger 20:27, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

• • Damburger, are you arguing that since Moore's film grossed $220 million and was seen by lots of people that it should be cited as fact? Or at least used a reference? I can't even begin to point out all the extremely dangerous directions this takes us in. Let's see... based on your argument, the Star Wars saga is probably codified somewhere in stone with records to back it up, the love story on Titanic was absolute fact, and Harry Potter's magical universe is probably accessible from King's Cross Railway station in London. How many pundits, experts, and scholars--LEFT OR RIGHT--actually support his theory? The question here is whether or not respected, expert, trusted, and VERIFIABLE sources back up the argument, not whether the masses buy into it. The Wikipedia project is a dangerous one where anyone can write history. --Common Sense Conspirator —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.205.28.104 (talk) 22:59, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

UN, NATO, ISAF?

I removed the UN and NATO flags from the infobox. Though UN-mandated, it is not a blue helmet force, its status more akin to the KFOR.

To have both the NATO and ISAF ensignas is redundant and confusing, as ISAF is "[...] a NATO-led security and development mission in Afghanistan [...]". The ISAF consists mainly of NATO members, but NATO's role in ISAF is organisatory, not as a belligerent party per se.--Victor falk 11:21, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

• The US, because it is by far the primary contributor to ISAF, and that besides that a significant portion of its contingent (8000 troops) is outside the ISAF chain of command. --Victor falk 15:56, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Commanders

How shall the list of commanders look like now? If CENTCOM Adm. Fallon is listed, then the in-field OEF commander is missing in the list. On the other hand, two other important NATO commanders were erased from the list recently. ISAF HQ directly reports to JFCB that is in command of all NATO operations in Afghanistan, whilst JFCB directly reports to APO at Shape. There is no need to delete that part. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.95.196.150 (talk) 07:54, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

As I understand (I'm not a professional military), the JFCB is a supporting logistical organisation to the ISAF, and Egon Ramms has no direct influence on the strategic, operative, or tactical disposition of particular units in Afghanistan. I think it's comparable in not having Wilhelm Keitel, as a commander of the Oberkommando der Wehrmacht, in the combatant box for Operation Barbarossa, though army groups ( e.g. Army Group Centre), which could be said to be the equivalent a unit at an equivalent level to the ISAF in their respective chain of commands, reported directly to the OKW. Anyway, his link redirects to JFSB, not to an article about him.

The case for Bantz J. Craddock is even weaker, he is SACEUR, his area of responsability is part of EUCOM, not CENTCOM, which is the AOR Afghanistan falls under; there his no mention about Afghanistan in his article whatsoever.

--Victor falk 17:47, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Nope, not true as proven with this excerpt from ISAFs mainpage "ISAF Command Structure

Based on the 16 April 2003 North Atlantic Council’s decision, NATO has been assuming over the strategic command, control and coordination of the International Security Assistance Force in Afghanistan since 11 August 2003.

NATO’s Allied Command Operations (ACO), based at the Supreme Headquarters Allied Powers in Europe (SHAPE), in Mons (Belgium), assumes the overall command of the operation.

ACO’s subordinate headquarters, Allied Joint Force Command (JFC) Headquarters Brunssum (The Netherlands), under the leadership of Joint Force Commander General Egon Ramms (Germany), runs the operation, duties including the planning and command of the force as well as the provision of a force commander and headquarters.

ISAF is composed of the Headquarters, the Air Task Force (ATF), the Regional Commands (RCs), the Forward Support Bases (FSB), and Provincial Reconstruction Teams (PRTs)." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.95.201.139 (talk) 11:25, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

However, there is still a proper listing missing. For example Gen. T. Franks is not in charge of operations in Afghanistan anymore. More correct would be to list the current commander of US CENTCOM, and thats Adm. W.J. Fallon. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.95.201.139 (talk) 11:28, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

As this article is about neither the initial invasion, or the current situation, but the whole war, Franks should be included. Chwyatt (talk) 12:48, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

• Who commands the 8000 US troops not under ISAF command?--Victor falk 04:51, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

US CENTCOM commander. Chwyatt (talk) 12:48, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

It is a bit distracting that there is apparently no system behind the "commanders part". There are old commanders listed as well as some currents are not. Some other, older edit was correct though; JFC-B is in charge of ISAF, and the entire ISAF staff is made up with personnel from JFC-B. Furthermore Ton van Loon wasn't overall commander of ISAF, so he shouldn't be the first commander to be listed.

Bin Laden accepting responsibility for 9/11

While I was looking at these destroyed towers in Lebanon, it sparked in my mind that the tyrant should be punished with the same and that we should destroy towers in America, so that it tastes what we taste and would be deterred from killing our children and women. is not,in my opinion, a clear confession. It is simply a recollection of what he thought at the time of the Lebanon event. The fact it came over 3 years later is also interesting because I don't see why he would have reasonably waited so long to take claim for such an event. Mr.grantevans2 21:19, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

UK as combatant

Um, I may be missing something but why is the UK not listed as a combatant? ᴀᴊᴋɢᴏʀᴅᴏɴ«» 10:05, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Ah, it is now. ᴀᴊᴋɢᴏʀᴅᴏɴ«» 23:53, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

And now someone took it off. The UK should be listed as a commatant. —Preceding unsigned comment added by ConnorIBurnett (talk • contribs) 14:50, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

The UK is, through the link Operation Enduring Freedom - Afghanistan: Allies. If you single out the UK as a significant belligerent, then you have to have Canada and the Netherlands as well. But if you have them, then why not France and Germany? And if you have France and Germany, why not Italy? And on and on and on. So the link covers that issue. Chwyatt (talk) 07:55, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Timeline

Time to split it? Prose only text size is a voluminous 50k. Marskell (talk) 11:47, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Although that might be removing the meat from the hamburger. Hm. Marskell (talk) 11:48, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

The old flags issue

The phrase ‘combatant’ and ‘belligerent’ are matters of interpretation. It is inevitable that people will have different perspectives. We could list every flag of every nation who has sent a soldier. But we would have 40 plus flags and it would look silly. And lack real-world context. Or we could play the troop deployment numbers game. But again that lacks context.

And any attempt to add ‘real-world context’ and we fall back into the old problem of who to include and who to exclude. What is combat and what is not.

War in Afghanistan (2001–present)
Location {{{place}}}
Belligerents
Taliban al-Qaeda Hezbi Islami	Afghanistan Northern Alliance Operation Enduring Freedom Allies ISAF

If we say “well, we have to have the US”, then surely we have to have Britain. Then Canada? the Dutch? Romania? Luxemburg? Iceland?

In my opinion, there is a simple solution to this inevitable ‘matter of interpretation’ problem. Get rid of the flags altogether. And have links to articles (such as Afghanistan Coalition Allies and ISAF, and they both need work) where real context can be added, and people can make up their own minds as to who is doing the ‘real fighting’.

And the ‘correct’ flag for al-Qaeda and the Taliban is still an unresolved one.

Flags might look nice, but tell us little at best, provide an inaccurate representation at worst. Lets not add flags just for the sake of it.

Views?

Chwyatt (talk) 11:31, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

First we had a user who decided that France and Germany, who both although had large contingents of ground troops and aircraft, did not do any real fighting, so did not deserve to have their flags listed. I reversed that. Then another user decided to keep the flags but list them in the order that he/she perceived they participated in "real combat". This is how Australia, which has nothing but a PRT team of a few hundred and had 4 fatalities, has its flag listed higher than say, Germany, which has 5 times as many troops, plus combat aircraft, in Afghanistan and which has had 29 fatalities, or France, which is in about the same situation.

Some will argue that the German and French manner of conducting the "war" is doing a better job a stabilizing Afghanistan than "Taliban hunting", that their manner is better at winning the hearts and minds of Afghans. Others think that Coalition troops have to hunt them down and kill them wherever they are, and that perhaps one day they the Taliban will either surrender or will all be dead. Both train of thoughts may be correct to some degree, but we are not here to decide. This is not an issue from Wikipedia to decide. Is such pettiness what Wikipedia is all about?

The flags originally were in the order of the countries according to number of boots on the ground. I think this is the way they should remain, or lets go with the previous suggestion and remove them all together.

As far as the Taliban Flag, they consider themselves the legitimate government of Afghanistan that was overthrown by a foreign invasion. They see themselves as the "Resistance". They consider the Afghan flag their as their own.

Hudicourt (talk) 14:22, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

I think it is worth adding that we should not just be looking at Afghanistan now, but since 2001. And in that time, Australia has contributed more than nothing but a PRT team of a few hundred

So it is not just the size and nature of the contribution now, but since 2001.

On the numbers issue, if Australian troops have been involved in autonomous fire-fights, which they have, then every nation that has more ‘boots on the ground’ than Australia has to have their flag up. What is the number that warrants having a flag up? 1,000? 500? 50? Then add those nations who have deployed in the past, but have since withdrawn. We go back to having dozens of meaningless flags.

The nature and effectiveness of the contributions is not a petty issue, but a very important one. What is petty is which flag goes up and which stays down. IMO, reason to skip flags altogether. Chwyatt (talk) 16:19, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

The 9-11 attacks

"After the September 11, 2001, attacks, investigators rapidly accumulated evidence implicating Osama bin Laden[citation needed]. "

Which investigators? What evidence? To my recollection, over a year into the war in Afghanistan the only evidence produced by U.S. Intelligence against bin Laden linked him to the African embassy bombings and the attack on the USS Cole. This statement not only requires a citation, it is probably factually incorrect and should be replaced with an official statement of belief by US Government representative(s). Even the 9/11 commission, convened 441 days after the WTC attack, and working for almost 2 years, did not attribute the attack to bin Laden personally, but to al-Qaeda, an organization which lacks a strict military command structure. While this does not, of course, exclude bin Laden from blame, it more accurately reflects the state of affairs, and illustrates the difficulty in targeting military actions against an amorphous foe. This is a valuable lesson of history of clear relevance to the background for the war. The current statement, on the other hand, is clearly biased and unsupported.

Also, you can not mention debate around Article 51 of the UN Charter, without including why Article 51 is relevant - namely to permit timely defensive military action, while maintaining the UN consensus against waging a "War of agression". I have added the reference. To be complete, moreover, this article should have some reference to relevant articles dealing with the actual debate. Merely mentioning that some debate exists is not sufficient - or particularly neutral.

64.231.235.124 (talk) 18:25, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Suggestion: replace "After the September 11, 2001, attacks, investigators rapidly accumulated evidence implicating Osama bin Laden[citation needed]." with the following;

"Six days after the September 11, 2001 attacks, U.S. President George W. Bush identified Osama bin Laden as the 'prime suspect' in the attacks."

ref --> http://archives.cnn.com/2001/US/09/17/bush.powell.terrorism/

It is neutral, specific, accurate, and verifiable. 64.231.235.124 (talk) 20:17, 20 February 2008 (UTC)64.231.235.124 (talk) 20:23, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

United Kingdom's contribution

user:Keizuko has been removing all reference to the UK's contribution in the introduction and as the UK was on the only other country than the US to take part in the invasion of Afghanistan and is the only other country to maintain a significant force of 7,800, almost half that of the US and more than double of Germany which is the third largest contributor. Signsolid (talk) 15:16, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

The lead somehow implies that the US and the UK were co-leaders in this war. In fact checking the history of this article I realize British editors have transformed little by little and months after months this article into a Rule Britania piece of propaganda, singling out the role of the UK in this war, even displaying a picture showing British soldiers in the beginning of the article, when in fact the contribution of the UK in this war is minor, barely more important than the contribution of Germany, France or other non-US Western nations, compared to the contribution of the US. This war was primarily led by the US who put the most troops, the most logistics, and who took all the important decisions. The article is deceitful as it leads unsuspecting readers to somehow believe that the UK was a co-leader in the war. Keizuko (talk) 15:31, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

As explained above the US and UK were the only countries to participate in the invasion of Afghanistan and so yes the UK is a co-leader in the invasion of Afghanistan. Signsolid (talk) 15:51, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

We are back in the old ‘what is significant, and what is not’ argument. Should Poland be considered symbolically equal to the US during the invasion of Iraq in 2003? They contributed armed forces to the initial attack. In fact, so did Denmark (with a single naval asset under US Navy control). Also, just because a nation contributes forces from the start, that does not mean they are co-leaders. What decides that is who shapes the strategy. And just because a nation has assets in the region, like the UK, who had air and naval forces in Oman, whilst others like Canada and Germany needed a little more time to get their special forces to the region, it would be pretty arbitrary to exclude the latter for that.

This page should not focus on the initial invasion, but the entire conflict, the whole seven odd years. The UK contribution is no doubt significant throughout that period. But so is Canada’s. And so is…well who decides? In the overall scheme of things, does it matter that some nations joined a few months latter? After all, in WW2, many significant players joined latter or left sooner. So we fall back into the ‘who is significant’ argument. And better having links to articles that spell out nation’s contributions, and not meaningless, context free, flags. Chwyatt (talk) 08:55, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

No Poland or Denmark shouldn't be considered a significant participant as they did not participate in the invasion of Afghanistan. The UK maintains by far the second largest force in Afghanistan after the US and the UK is the only country other than the US to participate in aerial bombing missions. I think really this isn't about where do you draw the line but more about trying to make the US and UK look bad by making the US look like it unilateraly invaded Afghanistan and trying to make the UK look insignificant. Signsolid (talk) 12:25, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

This is nothing to do with politics. I happen to be British and very proud of Britain’s contribution to the war against the nasty Taliban. This is about deciding which nations made ‘significant’ contribution, not to the invasion of Afghanistan, but the entire war since 2001.

Britain has made a significant contribution. No doubt about it. But what about Canada? What about the Netherlands? Australia? Germany? France? Italy? Estonia? Where do we draw that line? We cannot get consensus on that, not possible, so best not to try.

You say “well, Britain was there from the start”. But be singling out Britain as the noteworthy contributor, you exclude Canada, and the Dutch, who have made a big contribution as well over the last few years. So if you make exceptions for them, what about all the others? We are back to the same problem. Further, Dutch and Norwegian F-16s have made air strikes. So have French jets. And their have been years when Germany had more troops in A’stan than the UK.

And also, just because a nation cannot launch a Tomahawk missile on day one, that does not mean they are not noteworthy. Many nations could not contribute from day one, but started preparations for deployments from the start (or near start). So again you fall into the problem of which nations are significant, and which are not. The only way without bias is to remove all these allied flags, and have a link to an article where contributions can be clearly spelt out, and people can decide for themselves who was significant and who was not. Chwyatt (talk) 18:51, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

I think your version at the minute is the best solution. I think it's important that the article states that the UK was by far the most contributing ally to the US. Signsolid (talk) 20:26, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Keizuko, the UK has ten times the amount of troops Germany has in Afghan, twenty times as many as France. I assume good faith but base your edits on fact rather than your obvious dislike of the UK. (Sapperhutch (talk) 23:20, 28 July 2008 (UTC))

Your maths is a bit wrong there Sapperhutch. In June 2008, the UK had 8,530, Germany had 3,370 and France had 1,670. So Britain had 2.5 times the German troops and 5 times the French. Britain is clearly doing much more than the French and Germans. Except for the flags issue as discussed, Britain should have significant mention in this article. As should the Canadians and Dutch. But a case can still be made for saying the French and German contributions are ‘significant’ enough for a mention. Chwyatt (talk) 07:47, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Commanders

Tony Blair and Gordon Brown, why are they both listed? First, this is not really the way the UK military works, (the Queen is technically in charge), and secondly why are the U.S and Afgan politicians, (that are also 'commanders'), not listed?

I know that this info box/article is quietly ignoring the work of many countries/soldiers in favor of the U.S. and the U.K only, but you should at least try and be consistent between the two. FFMG (talk) 12:03, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

The box has links to pages where all countries’ contributions can be detailed.

ISAF

Operation Enduring Freedom Allies

And Tony Blair and Gordon Brown shouldn’t be added, because then we would need the leaders of loads of other countries. It would be a repeat of the flags farce. Chwyatt (talk) 12:38, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Afghan National Army

the Afghan National Army is very well trained and there are no reports of them often threatening journalists or political organizers. I removed the untrue information from the Afghan warlords subsection and please do not add that stuff unless you properly source it.#--119.30.71.109 (talk) 22:26, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Speaking of those, can anyone find a source about the number of Afghan security forces casualties? Casualties of the Afghan forces are rarely counted it seems, although they are probably much higher than nato forces. Currently there's a citation tag up for the casualties. - PietervHuis (talk) 02:54, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Bibliography

Is there a bibliography of notable/good books about the war? Fothergill Volkensniff IV (talk) 13:45, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Commanders in Chief

Greetings. I notice that the Commander in Chief of the Netherlands keeps appearing. The article does not have Admiral Michael Mullen, the US Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, or Air Chief Marshal Jock Stirrup, the UK Chief of the Defence Staff or General Richard Hillier, Canada's Chief of the Defence Staff. Or for that matter, the commander’s in chiefs of Germany, France, Italy, Australia (the list could go on).

It has been practice here to have Afghan military commanders, US CENTCOM and ISAF commanders. And not national Commander in Chief’s, regional ISAF commanders or individual battalion commanders (who appear from time to time). Anyone agree (or disagree). My concern is that if you have national commanders, it would be difficult to draw the line, and the commander's list could be endless. Chwyatt (talk) 07:57, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Peter van Uhm is the Commander in Chief of the Dutch Forces in Afghanistan. So, I felt that he deserved to appear on the list. (Red4tribe (talk) 13:06, 23 April 2008 (UTC))

But Dutch force come under ISAF control. So ISAF commander covers Dutch troops. Danger is, we would need to have British, French, German, Australian, Canadian, Italian, Estonian, Polish...an endless list. Chwyatt (talk) 07:42, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

UK involvement

How come the UK aren't listed as one of the Belligerents at the top of the page?

The UK is, through the link Operation Enduring Freedom - Afghanistan: Allies. If you single out the UK as a significant belligerent, then you have to have Canada and the Netherlands as well. But if you have them, then why not France and Germany? And if you have France and Germany, why not Italy? And on and on and on. So the link covers that issue. Chwyatt (talk) 15:13, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

What happened to the page its all messed up?

The page and the miltary box is gone can someone fix it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by ConnorIBurnett (talk • contribs) 21:05, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Nevermind someone fixed it. Thanks.

New operation?

Apparently the Canadian forces there are undergoing a new operation, Operation Rolling Thunder as an attempt to stop Taliban bomb making operations. Says so at the bottom

Any other proof? Or is this a minor statement?

--Sunsetsunrise (talk) 23:42, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Casualties

Every time I try to update the casualties, they get reverted back to what they were a few months ago. Why does this happen? [8]Red4tribe (talk) 02:36, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Stated Purpose

Does anyone have a citation for the "stated purpose" of this war? AThousandYoung (talk) 15:54, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Civilian casualties

I don't see the number of civilian casualties in the upper right info box. Futher down the article, it only mentions casualities of the U.S. bombing. The article on casualties also doesn't give a number. Aren't there any estimates, or a range of estimates, that can go in the info box? 24.68.37.170 (talk) 03:21, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

There is no agreed figure on Civilian casualties. What also makes it controversial is that some sources only count deaths by US/NATO forces, whilst ignoring deaths by the Taliban. The previous quote from The Guardian of 20,000 came from an editorial, with no reference or qualification. In the info box, it should either state there is no agreed figure, or give the range of estimates (such as Estimates vary from 2000 to 20,000). Civilian casualties should be discussed on that specific article. Chwyatt (talk) 12:59, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

While there is no agreed upon figure, there are reasonable estimates of civilian casualties. The war has been going for seven years and there is sufficient information to make a general estimate of civilian casualties. I have updated the info-box to reflect a conservative estimate of all civilian deaths, whether by NATO, Taliban, militia, etc. Publicus 19:15, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

New title

Just like there is Soviet war in Afghanistan, I thick this page should be redirect to NATO war in Afghanistan, a better name. 207.233.67.181 (talk) 19:00, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

I disagree. NATO, through ISAF, plays the larger part of combat operations in Afghanistan. But whilst NATO has been involved in Afghanistan since 2002, ISAF only undertook offensive ops against the Taliban in 2006. Up to that point, offensive ops against the Taliban came under Operation Enduring Freedom (OEF). OEF involved NATO countries, but was not a NATO operation. Not all US operations take place under NATO jurisdiction. And not all countries were NATO countries (Australia, New Zealand etc).

The current title is clumsy, but the western involvement is complex in terms of command structures. Chwyatt (talk) 08:34, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

3.7

I believe a new section should be added to explain the creation of the new Afghan government after the fall of the Taliban, it is one of the details I was hoping to read most on in this article but that I see less about, I've only read some of the article to date so I'm sorry if this was actually covered elsewhere.Ghyslyn (talk) 08:19, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Title - date range

Wikipedia:Manual of Style (dates and numbers) tends to discourage the use of dates presented as shown in the article title (2001 - present). Although it is generally aimed at the text layout within articles it does have a point, with regard to the word 'present'. At some point in the future this conflict will end and the bracketed section of the title will require changing. Would it not be better to do that now, to something like (2001 - onward). That could then also become the normal format for the inevitable series of other conflict titles that will arise in Wikipedia articles? Richard Harvey (talk) 09:16, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

No Criticism Section(?)

Why is there no mention of criticism in this article? I know that it can be found (to a very certain extent) in the article for "Operation Enduring Freedom," but at the very least, it should have some mention and a link in this acticle for "Operation Enduring Freedom (criticism)." I also find it oddly interesting (and not in a positive way) that the ONLY criticism of the War in Afghanistan is found in the aforementioned OEF article. There needs to be more mention of opposition to the war in both articles.69.235.165.65 (talk) 00:17, 12 July 2008 (UTC)James Lopez

What about this...Criticism of the War on Terrorism. There is a link to that in the War on Terrorism article. Chwyatt (talk) 10:06, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Balance the images

This article is full of NATO, ISAF, and coalition forces images. It would be helpful to balance with pictures of Taliban, and other militias. Publicus 19:40, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

30,000 to 50,000 ISAF troops means there should be a strong ISAF image presence. But I agree that the lack of Taliban and other Afghan forces images is a problem. Chwyatt (talk) 13:24, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Bad Reference

Reference 18, published in 2006, is being used as evidence for events "since 2006". AThousandYoung (talk) 23:04, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Casualties

How come only Coalition and civilian casualties are mentioned? What about insurgent/Taliban casualties? Providing only the information which was provided suggests bias. AThousandYoung (talk) 23:08, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately the Taliban don’t do many press conferences on this issue. But if there are reliable sources on Taliban casualties, a section would be welcome. Sometimes bias cannot be helped, if there is a lack of information. Chwyatt (talk) 16:36, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

French Lost 10 Soldiers Today

The Taliban launched a rather complicated attack that killed 10 French soldiers and wounded 21 more. Now, I don't know how to create an article or really how to use infoboxes, but I just wanted to bring it up to the wiser ones amongst you.ShaneMarsh (talk) 23:45, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Apparently 27 Taliban were killed and about 30 (according to my local newspaper) were wounded. Does this qualify as a battle? The losses on both sides are heavier than the norm. It'd be named the Battle of Surobi, I believe. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.191.203.39 (talk) 03:03, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Already mentioned in this article (in the section '2008'). There are pages with more details on operations in 2006 and 2007. If think there should be one on 2008, with more details. More details on this attack could go there. If it was a distinct operation, then it deserves its own article. If it was not, then details should go in a Coalition combat operations in Afghanistan in 2008 article. IMO. If anyone has some English language references, I'd add details. And RIP to the French soldiers. Chwyatt (talk) 08:01, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Feel free to improve Uzbin valley ambush. --Raoulduke47 (talk) 16:29, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Merge for months for 2001 / 2002 / 2003 / 2004

The page Timeline of the War in Afghanistan (2001–present) is a mismatch of different styles. However, I suggest that all months be moved into one year 2001, 2002, 2003 and 2004. While I understand the idea behind the different months, two of the busiest years for Coalition forces in Afghanistan have been in 2006 and 2007 where the format was changed again. Comments on each years page and here please!! Jez ☎ ✉ ✍ 10:45, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

I agree with that. Chwyatt (talk) 09:58, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

2008

This article is getting big again, so 2008 details are here - Coalition combat operations in Afghanistan in 2008. Nothing removed. As 2009 dawns, the 2008 Order of Battle could go there, as no doubt forces will change. Chwyatt (talk) 11:27, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Ordering

Could anyone explain me, why an ordering in the article must be: first - Taliban, then - Allies? What's the answer, for example, "Looks better this way" by Guyver85? What's it mean? Could show me any rules or anything to prove this way. Or it'll be reverted again if it isn't be confirmed. --Al3xil 00:04, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Someone has been playing pranks on the subject: War in Afghanistan

I recently came across this topic while eye-snacking through wikipedia. Someone has replaced "Osama bin Laden" with "George W. Bush". I re-edited some parts, but I'm uncertain whether that was the only pranks committed in this article. Could someone please check it with me? Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by Minsuk.kim (talk • contribs) 18:54, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Public opinion section

As this article is getting a little long, do you think the Public Opinion section should be moved to a new article? Also missing is public opinion in 2001 (which I think would be useful, to see how opinion has changed). Chwyatt (talk) 07:40, 30 September 2008 (UTC)