Talk:Vehicle-to-grid

Added more current projects under "Current Projects" section

Given vehicle-to-grid integration is a current and developing system, this article requires attention and regular revisions to keep updated with the latest emerging vehicle-to-grid projects.

In this revision, the research efforts at Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory are introduced. In particular, this new section outlines current research in battery degradation impact and renewable-integration potential of V2G services.

This revision also adds a 2016 V2G pilot project launched by Nissan and Enel in the United Kingdom. Jthluke (talk) 03:22, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

Added section on future plans for Vehicle-to-grid around the world

I added an entire section on the future development and implementation of Vehicle-to-grid in a few key countries around the world. While this list is certainly not meant to be exhaustive, I felt that this technology being very new (with a certain level of uncertainty as far as raw numbers go), it was important to be able to predict and get a rough estimate of how much of an impact this technology will have in the future, as well as know what kinds of actions countries are taking to actually make this technology widely prevalent. 747-captain (talk) 21:15, 29 April 2015 (UTC)

Needs references

I added a refimprove tag, because there are currently two cited references, and neither of them mentions "vehicle to grid." The blog entry isn't really a reliable source, either, despite its being well-written and consistent with other articles about PG&E's plans. There are a lot of external links and forum links, and maybe some of those are reliable sources that could be cited; I didn't check them. -Agyle 03:39, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Value

At $4/gallon of gas, $4,000 per year buys 1,000 gallons of gas, which at 30 mpg gets you 30,000 miles per year, which is more than what the average person drives. However, since the average electric vehicle gets 150 mpg equivalent, I would say that $4,000 is more like 150,000 miles per year worth of electricity. Can anyone find a source that says that V2G will allow driving for free (other than insurance and purchase price)? 199.125.109.87 (talk) 02:41, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

What I don't understand is if I could get paid $4,000 a year for the use of a battery, why does the battery need to be attatched to a car? I know that this is not a discusion site, but this IS relevent because this point should be researched and maybe discused by the Wikipedia experts. That and Donate to Wikipedia! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.197.244.85 (talk) 08:28, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

The answer is that the source is unreliable. It also states that 300 MW = 300 cars, which is completely false (at best, a car battery would provide 50 kW-so 300 MW would require 6000 cars). If a battery that size could actually provide $4000/year worth of value, you can bet utilities would already do it.

Completly Nonsens

You decrease energy efficiency carrying heavy batteries. Night electricity will become more expensive, if there is a great demand. Peak shaving electrity will become cheap when easy available. The market will destroy this idea (even investment costs not taken in account).--93.129.139.209 (talk) 17:23, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

AC Propulsion Inc.

The article's history section states AC Propulsion Inc. coined the term V2G citing a 2005 publication: Emadi, Ali (2005). Handbook of Automotive Power Electronics and Motor Drives. p. 34.

This 2001 publication by the University of Deleware uses the term V2G throughout. http://www1.udel.edu/V2G/docs/V2G-Cal-2001.pdf

Did AC Propulsion Inc really coin this term? Is a history section even necessary for this term? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lgats (talk • contribs) 23:20, 4 August 2017 (UTC)

economics

There is an economic advantage to the electrical utility using existing batteries that are bought and paid for by consumers. The utility does not need to finance it's own storage facility. Operating costs to cover battery replacements, bi-directional chargers, metering and control would be still be significant. It's debatable whether the financing advantage would outweigh the increased operating costs over time.

Unless I hear an objection I plan to delete "grid regulation can be done without decreasing the life of the battery". I don't believe it's possible to draw power from a battery and not decrease it's life. Dougmcdonell (talk) 17:35, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

The deleted text specifically said "absorbing excess surges, but not supplying peak power" ie. grid-to-vehicle as a variable part of the normal charging routine, NOT Vehicle-to-grid. The text is valid for inclusion somewhere else, but likely not in this article. TGCP (talk) 22:13, 29 August 2016 (UTC)

fix dated content

Alas, page has much old content, some of it forward-looking for what is now in (or close to) the past, e.g. "By 2020 in the UK, every residential home will have been offered… market value is projected to grow… between 2015 and 2020 (ZigBee 2010)". Editor options: easier/better to remove altogether, update with newer references, or replace with new relevant content? Doug Grinbergs (talk) 20:33, 9 January 2020 (UTC)

Nuvve

Notice that Nuvve is mentioned in several sections. It doesn't yet have its own WP page, but maybe it deserves its own section here to collect its work in various states and countries' projects. Doug Grinbergs (talk) 21:02, 9 January 2020 (UTC)

This page is about the concept in general. I am reluctant to put individual companies here. WP:REDLINK says that a red link such as Nuvve provides an incentive for somebody to create the article - although there are no guarantees.  Stepho  talk  11:09, 11 January 2020 (UTC)

Criticism

One thing not mentioned in this section is that many (if not most) electricity grid networks may actually not be ready for (a fast increase of) electric vehicles. The issue here is that most electrical grids are not designed for the large electrical draws required for the electric vehicles, and there may be weak links between the patchwork of networks, meaning that demand-load issues can occur, resulting in power outtage along an entire section of the network. This doesn't seem a big issue at first (because the flaws can then be identified and fixed), but actually, reinforcing the system takes many years to execute (I heard of 8 years that are neededjust to reinforce a section in the Netherlands) as you need to do major infrastructure work.

If a quick upscaling to electric vehicles is done, and there is major reliance on vehicle-to-grid for energy storage (due to increase of more renewable power production which fluctuates a lot), and abscence of other (more reliable) energy storage options (constant grid-connected ones), that might be quite problematic. I guess it's not an issue if the own vehicle batteries are just used to power the own home (home appliances) -so not connecting the battery to the grid at all-, but then the economics are even worse, and as you won't share power between multiple users, ecologically, its also worse.

Can someone dig into this and mention it on the page section ? --Genetics4good (talk) 08:29, 5 June 2021 (UTC)

The section mentioned that the grids are not ready to receive power input - or at least the meters need upgrades to allow bidirectional flow. Bidirectional meters are installed when solar power is added to a house. So this is unlikely to be a problem. But if you can find reliable sources (not YouTube or personal websites) then please add them.  Stepho  talk  12:54, 5 June 2021 (UTC)

I don't see a reason to have such as large criticism section at all. Per WP:Criticism, avoid and put in appropriate section with due weight (which will probs mean binning half or so). A lot of what is framed under criticism is just drawbacks. FemkeMilene (talk) 14:25, 5 June 2021 (UTC)

@User:Stepho-wrs. No I don't mean they're not ready for bidirectional flow. It's a much bigger problem. I think the main issue is that the different networks (the "electrical grid" is a patchwork of smaller grids -each country has one or multiple- that have been linked at some point in time) are not capable of transporting large amounts of power (any direction) between the different networks (in practice, that will probably mean the cables themselves are not thick enough and transformers need to be swapped I guess). That was also the work that needed to be done in the Netherlands which I mentioned, and I heard the same thing being needed for other countries too. The thing to consider here is that much more power is needed on the net then before with the electric vehicles, simply because those vehicles draw power from the net (combustion engines use fuel, so don't require any power at all, so don't draw it either). The networks will hence be stressed much more, and I doubt they'll hold it, depending on how fast the electric car adoption goes (if fast=very problematic, if slow= perhaps not a problem ?). But to make an impact (and a large reduction of emissions is needed by 2030) it will need to go fast (I remember share of electric cars was just 2% a few years ago, meaning 98% to go if we all go electric -rather then a combination of cycling, renewable fuels and other forms of transport-). Another issue is that there is very little energy storage present already (i.e. pumped hydro, and other mass-based grid energy storage, home batteries, ...), so there might be major reliance on vehicle to grid. Then there are the fast charging stations, increased fluctuations of power (more renewable power stations), and I also doubt much of the grid has been made smart either (smart grid), i.e. more tech enabling to balance out load/demand more precisely, but then again that doesn't matter much if the power lines are unable to transport the energy around in the first place (lack of high-voltage power lines). I remember that in the Europe (south-east europe), there was an power frequency (Hz) incident some time ago that almost caused a major power outtage (causing clocks in west and east europe to be out of sync), and all of the above contributing worsening factors are even not yet put into account, so I think the whole system is already quite fragile, and it will worsen a lot more (all the contributing worsening factors will still be added).

--Genetics4good (talk) 14:52, 5 June 2021 (UTC)

A global map of the high-voltage power lines (including those that still need to be completed) would be handy. Also, a global map showing the % of upgrading (from regular grid to smart grid) would be useful. Lastly, some additional data is useful (but then at the grid-energy storage page, so posting that on the talk page there)

--Genetics4good (talk) 06:14, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

Personally, I don't see this as a big problem. If all the customers in a location changed to vehicle-to-grid overnight then yes, it would be a problem. But the customer base moves slowly and the utility companies keep pace with the customers. As the customers put more demand on the grid, the companies increase the capabilities and capacity of the grid. Just like they did when we all added air conditioning, computers, large screen TV's, etc to our houses. Or to think of it another way, what if the 1900 petroleum industry had to provide for 2020 car usage. Most the perceived problem comes from people projecting the future use onto the current grid - comparing apples with oranges.  Stepho  talk  01:36, 12 June 2021 (UTC)

"Electrifying Times" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Electrifying Times and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 March 16#Electrifying Times until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion.  SchreiberBike | ⌨  03:27, 16 March 2022 (UTC)