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merge discussion

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FYI
 – Pointer to relevant discussion elsewhere.

Please see Talk:Varieties of English#Merge list to main article.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ >ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ<  16:53, 15 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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Requested move 30 August 2018

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The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Moved L293D (☎ • ✎) 00:19, 8 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

List of dialects of the English language → List of dialects of English – More concise title. 192.107.120.90 (talk) 13:35, 30 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This is a contested technical request (permalink). Request queried by Frayae (talk · contribs) –Ammarpad (talk) 16:04, 30 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 15 June 2020

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The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved (closed by non-admin page mover) Calidum 16:56, 22 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

List of dialects of English → List of varieties of English – Given the lack of universal definition of dialect, and the inclusion of languoids that are not really considered dialects of English, the article should be titled "List of varieties of English". Soumya-8974 talk contribs subpages 14:09, 15 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose. "Dialect" is a more appropriate term for the title, as it is a language term. "Varieties" could literally apply to anything, from apples to zippers. Rreagan007 (talk) 16:07, 15 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Agree with Rreagan007. Varieties is not a word really used in this context. As an Aussie, I've never heard of it. Dialect makes more sense. Fork99 (talk) 08:39, 16 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Please see Varieties of French, which was once titled Dialects of French. With your argument, that article should be moved back to its original title. If the article is focussed on spoken dialects, maybe remove the non-dialect languages like Scots? --Soumya-8974 talk contribs subpages 18:02, 21 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    As an Aussie, I've never heard of it.

    This is clearly going against the WP:IVENEVERHEARDOFIT. --Soumya-8974 talk contribs subpages 18:16, 21 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - "Dialect" is probably better understood than "variety", which is a legitimate term in linguistics. "Dialect" is also probably more common, thus this title would be appropriate per WP:COMMONNAME. Also, as written the lead discusses dialects, not varieties as such. Taken together, these argue against moving. - BilCat (talk) 18:14, 21 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Follow-up discussion

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Some post-closure observations, in case this comes up again: Referring to English dialects as "varieties" is a weird Wikipedianism found in the MoS (due to some argument back in the early 2000s). It is not normal English usage, nor normal linguistic usage (variety is used in sometimes in sociolinguistics as a blanket term, a synonym of lect (or isolect), which all have a meaning too broad to be useful in this context (it encompasses everything from registers and styles of speaking within one dialect, all the way up to entire languages and even language continuua/groups. The non-standard, recent linguistics neologism "languoid" really isn't very different in excessive scope from that. And all this stuff is WP:JARGON that virtually none of our readers would arrive here already understanding, or ever use as a search term to find this article.

The scope matters: This article is not about accents and styles, or formality registers; and it is also not about the English–Scots continuum (which is mostly mutually intelligible, or we would not sing "Auld Lang Syne" or ever read Robert Burns); nor is it inclusive of English-based creoles and pidgins. It's about English, and dialects (somewhat but not excessively broadly construed) within it. There are a few things on the list that should be removed, though. (E.g., Bootling is not a dialect, but an artificial cant. And if Scots is in there still, then it should also be removed.)

Anyway, please remember that WP is not "SpecialistPedia". The term dialect has a generally understood dominant meaning in English, that is encompassed by this article, and it really doesn't matter that various professional linguists would use it subtly differently (the fact is that they would not all agree on what those difference are in the first place).  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  00:18, 21 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"Englishes" listed at Redirects for discussion

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A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Englishes. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 December 1#Englishes until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Soumya-8974 (he) talk contribs subpages 09:51, 1 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

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The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 12:53, 15 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Continents should be ordered alphabetically

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Africa and Asia should come first. There is no reason to prioritize white majority countries just because they spoke english earlier than other countries. Jiaminglimjm (talk) 10:38, 30 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I respectfully disagree. The most diverse area of English (UK being in Europe, and obviously being the origin) should come first, this is prevalent in the main paragraph explaining the three main areas of English.Halbared (talk) 11:05, 30 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Core anglosphere being more diverse in englishes is debatable; they are only more well-researched. English is a much larger phenomenon than its origin. Just Indian English itself is already incredibly diverse and is arguably the group of Englishes with the most speakers in the world. Not to mention the many, many other varieties like Nigerian Pidgin and Singlish which also have huge numbers of speakers and are immensely complex linguistically. Many of them are dialect continuums of english but still no less important and no less diverse than the "White People's English". –Jiaminglimjm (talk) 16:13, 30 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It's debatable in some places, but it's incontrovertible in England, the dialect can change as soon as one moves a few miles from an origin point. The variation in that original core of 60 million (whole of UK) is the point from which other forms should be distinguished.Halbared (talk) 18:20, 30 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
So we should discriminate against countries where English was first spoken because they have white majorities? BilCat (talk) 15:42, 30 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Alphabetical order is not discrimination. I argue that where English is first spoken is not a good indicator of what English is like in today's world. –Jiaminglimjm (talk) 16:17, 30 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
That isn't how you framed your initial arguments. Anyway, presenting the continents in historical order is a valid method, and not discriminatory at all. I think it works best, as Halbared pointed out. BilCat (talk) 16:22, 30 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

please add

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Appalachia, particularly Central Appalachia, isn't mentioned. or if it is, I've missed it. Mari Adkins 20:01, 26 July 2022 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by MariAdkins (talk • contribs)

It is mentioned but it can be hard to see on the map of the US. The article is Appalachian English. Erinius (talk) 20:20, 26 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 14 October 2022

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The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 04:18, 30 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

List of dialects of English → Dialects of English – This is an important encyclopedic topic, and although a lot of the page is currently structured in the form of a list, this is really a topic which deserves to be treated as a standalone article rather than just a list. And the "overview" section provides an introduction to that. And even if it is just a list, WP:NCLIST doesn't mandate the use of "List of...", it merely describes it as "A common practice". Finally, there's a strong WP:CONSISTENCY argument. I've had a look through similar pages relating to other major languages, and I so far haven't found any that title the page on dialects as "List of ...". See for example German dialects, Spanish dialects and varieties, Dialects of Polish, Varieties of French etc. Note that I boldly moved this yesterday, following a request by Treetoes023 at WP:RM/TR,[1] but the move was reverted by BilCat so here we are. I also prefer "Dialects of English" over "English dialects", so it's clear that we're referring to the language, not the country of England, a point raised by DrVogel at the RM/TR discussion.  — Amakuru (talk) 11:34, 14 October 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 18:54, 22 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

None of the other articles you cited are as list-y as this one is. Erinius (talk) 12:09, 14 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
True, but that raises an even bigger question. Why would we devote proper articles to the dialects of all the other languages, but not to our own, the home language of this wiki? Even if this page currently looks like a list, I would see this as an aspirational move request... let's build out the page that should exist and doesn't. There's a lot of content at sub-articles like American English, Manchester dialect, and a whole myriad of other pages, which could easily be rendered as a WP:SUMMARYSTYLE and useful article of the sort seen at Varieties of French. Cheers  — Amakuru (talk) 12:19, 14 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Instead of moving this list, why don't you just create an article (or a draft article) for English dialects or Varieties of English. Rreagan007 (talk) 17:47, 14 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Rreagan0007. Both a prose article and a list are encyclopaedic and there is space for both, so keep this list as a list and write a prose article to accompany it. Thryduulf (talk) 09:57, 15 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Relisting comment: Make a separate article or rewrite this list article? — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 18:54, 22 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Please remove Glasgow, Ulster Scots, Fingallian and Yola

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I feel these inclusions are misleading. Glaswegian and Ulster Scots are dialects of Scots, not English, and Fingallian and Yola were their own languages when they were spoken. The articles on these also say as much.

I've noticed @StaneDonnie: tried to remove Ulster Scots, but @Roger 8 Roger: reverted this change.

I've noticed an attempt to remove Fingallian and Yola by @Erinius: was also reverted.

The map in the article also seems to imply that Scots is just a variant of English, as it shows Scots on the map and the filename is Dialects_of_English_in_UK_and_Ireland.svg. Scots is officially recognised by Scotland, the UK and the EU as a separate language and it even has it's own Wikipedia. It is not a form of English. Please change this.

Thanks in advance,

-Cobra! (talk) 20:58, 10 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Let's see what others have to say. BTW, most maps on WP are self made by hobbyist editors, which makes them original research. Notwithstanding that, this self-made table might be useful for context. [2] Roger 8 Roger (talk) 21:21, 10 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
My reason for wanting to have the Anglic languages removed from the list of English dialects is because it would be like making a list of Latin dialects and counting all of the Modern Romance languages as Latin dialects instead of being a group languages that evolved from Latin. Modern English, Scots, Yola, and Fingallian evolved from different dialects of Middle English, and Anglic is a family grouping like Germanic, Italic, and Celtic, and Anglic doesn’t mean the same thing as English in that way. StaneDonnie (talk) 22:23, 10 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't actually try to remove Fingallian and Yola, that was an IP editor.
Ulster Scots and Scots proper certainly don't belong on this list. I'm 100% in favor of them being removed. As for "Glasgow", however, the article Glasgow dialect seems to describe it as existing on a continuum from a local variety of Scottish English to a local variety of Scots. Some of the article's content describes characteristics which appear in Glasgow English, not just in Glasgow Scots. Because of that, I think Glasgow should remain on the list.
I assume there's a similar SSE-Scots continuum in the rest of the Scottish Lowlands - maybe that deserves a mention as well.
It is problematic that a map on "dialects of English" says Scots and Scottish English - representing the whole continuum-diglossia-sociolinguistic-stratification thing in the Lowlands seems hard to do on a map like that, the simplest option would be to just say "Scottish English."
Not sure where I stand on Fingallian and Yola, and I don't think it's up to Us Enlightened Wikipedia Editors to decide. Try to see what reliable sources say about classifying them as "dialects of English." More generally, there's no hard, objective line between "descended from OE but not an English dialect" and "dialect of English". Erinius (talk) 06:26, 11 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Lack of inclusion of Scots?

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Why is Scots absent whilst Yola, Fingalian and Ulster-Scots remain? The controversial nature of whether or not Scots is a separate "language" or merely a variety of English is worthy of note in this list. UaMaol (talk) 20:06, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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The words on the maps are clickable to find relevant articles, but I found that out on accident.

I think it should be mentioned in the cutline by saying "Map of American English (interactive)" or something. 2603:8080:B00:183B:5902:39E6:7623:E387 (talk) 01:54, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done. Captainllama (talk) 19:27, 22 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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